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So how do I get all the sidewalk riders in my part of town to stop riding on the sidewalks? It sets up the expectation of motorists that I am doing it wrong when I ride vehicularly in the street.
Thus the guys riding "wrong" feel they are doing it right, while I get the honks and yelling...
I have passed out fliers at local bike shops and the library, that point to the Bike Expert (http://www.bikexprt.com/streetsmarts/index.htm) web page... But I doubt that these utility riders and students even go to bike shops.
Certainly I can't stop each and every one and try to convince them to ride correctly...
So I bear the brunt of the motorists opinions that the "other cyclists" are doing it right and I am doing it wrong.
This is one clear case where more butts on saddles does NOT pay off.
BTW for the record, there are no bike lanes involved. These are narrow old streets lined with parked cars.
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Get rid of the ADA ramps.
In my home town as a kid riding on the sidewalk was required. In this town you are supposed to ride in the street IF you are over 14. Many parents require their kids to stay on the sidewalk where it is available. We kids used to sneak into the street (smoother, quicker), but if caught by the police, it was a one-week impoundment and parental notification (the worst part).
Motorists are going to hate our slow speed impeding them regardless of people using the sidewalk. They know we are allowed out there, and maybe that we are required to be out there, but it doesn't matter to them. I applaud the flyers, etc., but I think as long as parents know the hazards of bikes versus cars, they will keep requiring their kids to ride off the road when they can. I have had some close calls, but ironically, I have been hit only when I was on the sidewalk (twice) riding there as required by my parents. I can still see and describe the bottom of a 1950 Dodge.
The bike violation I hate the most is riding the wrong way against traffic. As a former State Trooper, I used to stop every one that I saw and hand out pamphlets on safe bike riding to them with an explanation of the rules. However, this is a university town, and the bike violations are incredible - wrong way riding, no lights at night, darting in and out, running red lights, sidewalk riding, etc. The only good thing, is that motorists are used to bikes - and that's a good thing.
High quality, on road bike infrastructure.
I applaud the flyers, etc., but I think as long as parents know the hazards of bikes versus cars, they will keep requiring their kids to ride off the road when they can. I have had some close calls, but ironically, I have been hit only when I was on the sidewalk (twice) riding there as required by my parents. I can still see and describe the bottom of a 1950 Dodge.
Sounds like the parents don't know as much as they think they do, or they gave their kids the harmfully wrong impression that riding on the sidewalk removes all of the hazards of cycling in traffic.
Why is this in the Vehicular Cycling subforum anyway? Seems like more of a general advocacy issue to me.
Why is this in the Vehicular Cycling subforum anyway? Seems like more of a general advocacy issue to me.
Because it is an issue of vehicular cycling... vice sidewalk cycling.
For vehicular cycling to work and be accepted, it must be accepted by not only motorists but other cyclists.
One of the things that is often mentioned by VCs is that motorists will tend to be more accepting of the vehicular way when the cyclists they see are all riding in that form. So what happens when just the opposite occurs, such as in my area, where the majority of cyclists that motorists see are curb huggers or sidewalk riders... the VC rider stands alone. This is not to say I am the only vehicular cyclist in the area... not by any means, but I am a minority in this area.
The conditions are such that the right tire track is the best place to ride... the lanes are wide, but lined with parked cars... so to stay of the door zone (which runs for miles) I ride the right tire track... sometimes on my fast bike, sometimes loaded down on my commuter. I get more than my fair share of harassment (as evidenced by my rants here on BF) from motorists that expect cyclists to ride on the sidewalk... as many cyclists here do. I am restricted to using the main roads... as they are the only ones that cross from mesa to mesa (side streets dead end in canyons) so to go anywhere... I must ride the right tire track on the main roads which apparently motorists "dislike."
Sounds like the parents don't know as much as they think they do, or they gave their kids the harmfully wrong impression that riding on the sidewalk removes all of the hazards of cycling in traffic.
So you would put 10 year olds on the street with traffic moving at 50MPH?
This is not to say that BL are a solution... the real solution is to have motorists drive slower. Good luck with that.
In my home town as a kid riding on the sidewalk was required. In this town you are supposed to ride in the street IF you are over 14.
where are you from?
So you would put 10 year olds on the street with traffic moving at 50MPH?
This is not to say that BL are a solution... the real solution is to have motorists drive slower. Good luck with that.
No, I didn't say that. But ten year olds (the ones I have experience with, and even some younger kids) are mature enough to be able to handle vehicular cycling on neighborhood streets where traffic volumes and speeds are low/slow enough. Just like a beginner cyclist of any age should be encouraged to get their start cycling, and a beginner driver for that matter. There's no need to take the sidewalk and it present unnecessary risks to try and do so with all of the driveway crossings.
The solution to kids riding safely down arterials? Maturity and experience riding in traffic, ideally starting out on the same bike as an experienced adult cyclist then eventually graduating up to doing it on their own bike with supervision and finally on their own. Just like I learned how to drive (unfortunately, not how I learned how to cycle but neither of my parents were cyclists).
Because it is an issue of vehicular cycling... vice sidewalk cycling.
For vehicular cycling to work and be accepted, it must be accepted by not only motorists but other cyclists.
One of the things that is often mentioned by VCs is that motorists will tend to be more accepting of the vehicular way when the cyclists they see are all riding in that form. So what happens when just the opposite occurs, such as in my area, where the majority of cyclists that motorists see are curb huggers or sidewalk riders... the VC rider stands alone. This is not to say I am the only vehicular cyclist in the area... not by any means, but I am a minority in this area.
The conditions are such that the right tire track is the best place to ride... the lanes are wide, but lined with parked cars... so to stay of the door zone (which runs for miles) I ride the right tire track... sometimes on my fast bike, sometimes loaded down on my commuter. I get more than my fair share of harassment (as evidenced by my rants here on BF) from motorists that expect cyclists to ride on the sidewalk... as many cyclists here do. I am restricted to using the main roads... as they are the only ones that cross from mesa to mesa (side streets dead end in canyons) so to go anywhere... I must ride the right tire track on the main roads which apparently motorists "dislike."
I can see why you put this thread in this forum. Thanks for the explanation.
So how do I get all the sidewalk riders in my part of town to stop riding on the sidewalks? It sets up the expectation of motorists that I am doing it wrong when I ride vehicularly in the street.
Thus the guys riding "wrong" feel they are doing it right, while I get the honks and yelling...
I have passed out fliers at local bike shops and the library, that point to the Bike Expert (http://www.bikexprt.com/streetsmarts/index.htm) web page... But I doubt that these utility riders and students even go to bike shops.
You as an individual can't effectively "tell" strangers what to do. The best you can do with strangers is set a good example in the way you ride.
I ride on the roadway with my family, my son in the bike trailer, all over neighborhood streets where sidewalk cycling is common. I hope it encourages the sidewalk cyclists to consider the legitimacy, safety and efficiency of roadway use.
The city of Cary, NC has published a bike map that is popular with beginning cyclists. Bike shops hand it out. The map includes safe cycling information on the back. It says "Don't ride your bike on sidewalks":
http://www.townofcary.org/depts/dsdept/P&Z/bicycleplan/bicycleplanmap.htm
Organized cycling events aimed at beginners also help get them onto the roadway and off of sidewalks. The annual "Cary Cycling Celebration" has a number of short beginner rides around the neighborhoods. I usually lead one or two of these in the afternoon after riding a long route in the morning.
So how do I get all the sidewalk riders in my part of town to stop riding on the sidewalks? It sets up the expectation of motorists that I am doing it wrong when I ride vehicularly in the street.
Thus the guys riding "wrong" feel they are doing it right, while I get the honks and yelling...
I have passed out fliers at local bike shops and the library, that point to the Bike Expert (http://www.bikexprt.com/streetsmarts/index.htm) web page... But I doubt that these utility riders and students even go to bike shops.
Certainly I can't stop each and every one and try to convince them to ride correctly...
So I bear the brunt of the motorists opinions that the "other cyclists" are doing it right and I am doing it wrong.
This is one clear case where more butts on saddles does NOT pay off.
BTW for the record, there are no bike lanes involved. These are narrow old streets lined with parked cars.
If sidewalk riding is legal (or even if it is illegal but not enforced) and you don't see a prone body at every interesection, then what is it to you that they ride where they are most comfortable? Why is what they are doing labeled "incorrect" and what you are doing labeled "correct"?
I suggest you quit trying to police how other people ride and just bear the yelling as the price you pay for a faster ride on the street. Isn't this how we cyclists do it nowadays?
If sidewalk riding is legal (or even if it is illegal but not enforced) and you don't see a prone body at every interesection, then what is it to you that they ride where they are most comfortable? Why is what they are doing labeled "incorrect" and what you are doing labeled "correct"?
I suggest you quit trying to police how other people ride and just bear the yelling as the price you pay for a faster ride on the street. Isn't this how we cyclists do it nowadays?
But Brian... "cyclists fare best when they act and are treated like drivers of vehicles..." where is my "faring best?"
Seems like those acting like fast "rolling peds" are faring better.
I'm gonna weigh in with my pet peeve. I usually only frequent the ssfg forum, but I'm branching out now, and here seems to be the perfect place for me to state how much cyclists on sidewalks bother me.
In my suburban hometown where I worked civilian bike patrol for 2 summers, I kinda couldn't care less. most of the riders on sidewalks were young, and traffic was often fast on busier roads, so I don't blame them cus they weren't getting in anyone's way.
but in the city it's another story. the sidewalks are crowded with pedestrians. my friend who commutes to work on a used department store bike refuses to ride in the street. I've told him it's safer and faster, and a cop has told him to get off the sidewalk at least once. nope, he's just like "I'm gonna do whatever I want, I ride in the sidewalk, always have always will." same with people who ride on the sidewalk so as to be able to go the wrong way on a one-way street. it really does not that any longer to go one block north or south and ride the right direction in the street (actually, it's probably faster).
ok, sorry for the rant, thanks for listening.
I don't have any intention of single-handedly changing these patterns. But I wish the cops would stop more cyclists they see on the sidewalks and make them get in the street.
But Brian... "cyclists fare best when they act and are treated like drivers of vehicles..." where is my "faring best?"
Seems like those acting like fast "rolling peds" are faring better.
Interesting observation. What of it?
I'm gonna weigh in with my pet peeve. I usually only frequent the ssfg forum, but I'm branching out now, and here seems to be the perfect place for me to state how much cyclists on sidewalks bother me.
In my suburban hometown where I worked civilian bike patrol for 2 summers, I kinda couldn't care less. most of the riders on sidewalks were young, and traffic was often fast on busier roads, so I don't blame them cus they weren't getting in anyone's way.
but in the city it's another story. the sidewalks are crowded with pedestrians. my friend who commutes to work on a used department store bike refuses to ride in the street. I've told him it's safer and faster, and a cop has told him to get off the sidewalk at least once. nope, he's just like "I'm gonna do whatever I want, I ride in the sidewalk, always have always will." same with people who ride on the sidewalk so as to be able to go the wrong way on a one-way street. it really does not that any longer to go one block north or south and ride the right direction in the street (actually, it's probably faster).
ok, sorry for the rant, thanks for listening.
I don't have any intention of single-handedly changing these patterns. But I wish the cops would stop more cyclists they see on the sidewalks and make them get in the street.
Me thinks that even I would be hesitent to ride on the street with a used department store bike. And when you make the claim that it is safer, you've lost all credibility with him. You can argue that the street is faster and more convenient, but it is incredibly difficult to convince someone it is safer. I've ridden on sidewalks that are so safe that the biggest threat is the crack in the pavement. I've seen sidewalks with driveway intersections every 20 feet. The street is safer than the sidewalk? On a used department store bike? Hardly a universal statement.
I'm gonna weigh in with my pet peeve. I usually only frequent the ssfg forum, but I'm branching out now, and here seems to be the perfect place for me to state how much cyclists on sidewalks bother me.
In my suburban hometown where I worked civilian bike patrol for 2 summers, I kinda couldn't care less. most of the riders on sidewalks were young, and traffic was often fast on busier roads, so I don't blame them cus they weren't getting in anyone's way.
but in the city it's another story. the sidewalks are crowded with pedestrians. my friend who commutes to work on a used department store bike refuses to ride in the street. I've told him it's safer and faster, and a cop has told him to get off the sidewalk at least once. nope, he's just like "I'm gonna do whatever I want, I ride in the sidewalk, always have always will." same with people who ride on the sidewalk so as to be able to go the wrong way on a one-way street. it really does not that any longer to go one block north or south and ride the right direction in the street (actually, it's probably faster).
ok, sorry for the rant, thanks for listening.
I don't have any intention of single-handedly changing these patterns. But I wish the cops would stop more cyclists they see on the sidewalks and make them get in the street.
These sidewalk riders are not young. They are generally younger than me... but heck I am 51. These are adults. Young adults and older adults.
The sidewalks here are not filled with pedestrians ("nobody walks in LA... " tends to apply to San Diego too.)
The issue I am addressing is that I often get the "get on the sidewalk" comment... and no way I can say "it's illegal" when two or three cyclists ride by on the sidewalk... motorists expect cyclists to be on the sidewalks... thus putting me at a disadvantage because I am on the street.
ok ok sorry for the "universal statement." I was just ranting. I know of the sidewalks you are talking about that are safer than the streets. they are not the ones in crowded urban environments. this friend's commute to work could be done faster and more conveniently and without pissing pedestrians off if he rode in the street. it would be easy for him to take roads with bike lanes the entire way. gah. there's no point in arguing this one case tho. I basically just wanted to say that in Philadelphia, where the sidewalks are crowded with pedestrians, cyclists should be in the street. After all, it is the law.
The issue I am addressing is that I often get the "get on the sidewalk" comment... and no way I can say "it's illegal" when two or three cyclists ride by on the sidewalk... motorists expect cyclists to be on the sidewalks... thus putting me at a disadvantage because I am on the street.
ok, maybe I used the wrong thread to voice my issue.
I do understand what you're talking about. I hear it a lot and it sucks but you just gotta keep biking. I have the same right to be in the street as the drivers do. Just the other day I was riding in the right lane of a 4 lane road in which drivers had plenty of room to pass me. Still got beeped at. Sorry, no I'm not gonna go on the MUP, dodging pedestrians on that thing is scarier than getting passed by a speeding truck. ok, more ranting. maybe I better go back to ssfg.
Well, can't argue with the law. Where I rode some of the sidewalks (in Seattle), it was legal and helped a lot with the one way street issue (make a left onto a 4 lane, busy arterial from an uncontrolled, midblock intersection, roll a block, and make another midblock left to get to the top of the one way street leading to my apartment vs. making a right from a wee little sidestreet onto the sidewalk and rolling to the front door).
ok, maybe I used the wrong thread to voice my issue.
I do understand what you're talking about. I hear it a lot and it sucks but you just gotta keep biking. I have the same right to be in the street as the drivers do. Just the other day I was riding in the right lane of a 4 lane road in which drivers had plenty of room to pass me. Still got beeped at. Sorry, no I'm not gonna go on the MUP, dodging pedestrians on that thing is scarier than getting passed by a speeding truck. ok, more ranting. maybe I better go back to ssfg.
like there's no ranting there... ;).
Summer sucks. You get all the people riding to get in shape around here and they ride the wrong way down the sidewalk and don't stop at intersections. I have nearly gotten creamed twice this summer when I stopped at a light and some cyclist come flying across the crosswalk and I was moving over to hit the cross button (there are some intersections that will never trigger for my bike) They dont' slow down. They are coming from a blind corner since the fences go right up to the intersections.
I saw one get hit a few weeks ago, well I should say hit a car. The car stopped was looking left had a clear road and moved out. Cyclist rams her and tumbles over the hood. He got a few yells out before noticing me on my bike walking up and tried to garner my support. I cut him off and told him it is illegal to ride on the sidewalk. It is illegal to cross a sidewalk riding a bike. It is illegal to cross a with dont' cross light lit on the signal and that I had dispatch on the phone and they were sending out a policeman to take statements so he should plan on waiting a few minutes. He was absolutely stunned and then starting ranting on how I was wrong and how I should support cyclist since I am one and what was I doing, he was going to get even with me.
The lady was very thankful that I was there and supporting her as was the policeman he was worried I was going to blame the motorist. After a few minutes the policeman ended up giving the guy a ride home with the bike as he wasnt' riding with ID. Not sure what happened after that but I never saw it in the police blotter. So I have one motorist who supports VC only a 250 million or so to go in this country and we are all set :-)
I see 2 completely different types of riding here. Road riding where the cyclist is either working out or commuting and then the bunch that is doing their best to get from point A to point B without dying.
Transients, kids riding to school, Illegals primary mode of transportation, neighbors putting to the store.
If there's no bike lane I often take the sidewalk while on my cruiser to the licker store :D
like there's no ranting there... ;).
ha, that's all that's over there, and it results in a big orgy of insults. it rocks!
basically what I meant was that ranting is more accepted there than here, I think. emo hipster punks know how to complain.
If sidewalk riding is legal (or even if it is illegal but not enforced) and you don't see a prone body at every interesection, then what is it to you that they ride where they are most comfortable? Why is what they are doing labeled "incorrect" and what you are doing labeled "correct"?
I suggest you quit trying to police how other people ride and just bear the yelling as the price you pay for a faster ride on the street. Isn't this how we cyclists do it nowadays?
Because the world doesn't consist simply of cyclists and motorists. As someone who is often a runner/pedestrian, I'd rather not be hit by someone moving 15-20mph on a sidewalk.
Because the world doesn't consist simply of cyclists and motorists. As someone who is often a runner/pedestrian, I'd rather not be hit by someone moving 15-20mph on a sidewalk.
Such is life. From the point of view of the bicyclist who don't want to involve himself with the politics or the finer points of traffic cycling, he'd rather not be hit by a car going 40-50 mph on the road. Who can blame him?
And if you actually clock or pace a sidewalk cyclist at anywhere near 20mph, I'll give you a virtual cookie.
ha, that's all that's over there, and it results in a big orgy of insults. it rocks!
basically what I meant was that ranting is more accepted there than here, I think. emo hipster punks know how to complain.
Isn't that the definition of a hipster? Someone who's entire life is one big complaint? :D
I agree that sidewalk riding can make motorists believe that's where cyclists belong, and would also like to see more cyclists on the road.
Most sidewalk riders I see are going so slow that safety is hardly an issue as long as they are paying attention. I like to ride fast... No one on the sidewalk is going to keep up. I'll smile and wave or give a verbal greeting as I fly by. If they see me (or others) enough times they'll figure out that the road is not instant death, and is a lot faster. If they decide to join me, cool. If not, oh well. Some who are willing may learn by example.
I try to explain the benefits of riding in the street to all who ask about my cycling, but never push it. I like your flyer strategy. This may also get some to reconsider their choice of where they ride. Besides these things I don't know what else could be done.
Interesting observation. What of it?
Well it comes down to this... am I faring better?
Let's do a bit of comparison:
The sidewalk cyclist is perhaps moving at 10-12 MPH with perhaps an average speed of 8MPH. They must be vigilant at all intersections. They must not hit pedestrians. There is no fear of the door zone, nor does the sidwalk cyclist have to check a mirror to watch for approaching motorists. Nor does the sidewalk cyclist have to be concerned with parked cars suddenly leaving their spot.
The VC street cyclist is moving at perhaps 17-20+MPH depending on conditions, they might average about 16MPH (these numbers come right from my bike computer). they must be vigilant at all the same intersections. The street cyclist must not hit pedestrians... who generally only appear at intersections... but also sometimes pop out of cars, and sometimes cross the street or come out from the curb to open car doors. The street cyclist must be vigilant for the door zone, and for cars leaving parking spots. The street cyclist is also harassed by motorists, and must maintain some awareness of approaching motorists from behind.
So in comparison:
The street cyclist arrives in half the time... Fared better.
The sidewalk cyclist has less to be vigilant for... Fared better
The street cyclist is harassed... oops, Fared worse.
Throw in the fact the the street cyclist is working harder to move at higher speed... oops more sweat... the sidewalk cyclist is merely cruising at their speed and can perhaps arrive "fresher." OK you argue... the street cyclist could slow down... No, that tends to increase the harassement factor.
Well what about the exercise issue... well, the street cyclist is pushing harder, but for a shorter period... the sidewalk cyclist is going to be moderately exercising for about twice as long.
OK based on the comparisons, I cannot see how the VC street cyclist "fared better." They arrived in half the time, all sweaty, and were harrased and had to be more vigilant. Can someone explain how this is "faring better?" Perhaps I just don't get the concept.
the street cyclist get the adrenaline rush of almost dying at every turn = fared better ;)
Everyone has to make the choice of where to ride for themselves. Education and example can be helpful in making that choice. I'll take the higher speed, less stops and better treatment at intersections, even with the sweating and occasional honking/yelling. Are you reconsidering riding in the street?
Everyone has to make the choice of where to ride for themselves. Education and example can be helpful in making that choice. I'll take the higher speed, less stops and better treatment at intersections, even with the sweating and occasional honking/yelling. Are you reconsidering riding in the street?
How is treatment better at intersections? When vehicular riding I have to control the intresections by moving left and holding back those motorists that might try to right hook me. The sidewalk cyclists push a button and wait for a green light and walk signal.
The only benefit of street riding that I can see is higher speed. And that benefit seems well offset by other things such as the honking/yelling and greater need for vigilance.
I can see why so many cyclists in my area prefer to ride sidewalks while I ride the streets and "suffer the outrageous slings and arrows."
I don't have any intention of single-handedly changing these patterns. But I wish the cops would stop more cyclists they see on the sidewalks and make them get in the street.
I wish the cops would stop more of the traffic zipping along at nearly double the speed limit.
Then this sidewalk riding problem, if it even is a problem, would take care of itself.
Personally, I don't care where others ride.
It's not up to other riders to physically place themselves at odds with the expectations of high-speed motorists for my benefit.
How is treatment better at intersections? When vehicular riding I have to control the intresections by moving left and holding back those motorists that might try to right hook me. The sidewalk cyclists push a button and wait for a green light and walk signal.
The only benefit of street riding that I can see is higher speed. And that benefit seems well offset by other things such as the honking/yelling and greater need for vigilance.
I can see why so many cyclists in my area prefer to ride sidewalks while I ride the streets and "suffer the outrageous slings and arrows."
When you are in the street you have the right of way in any instance where any other vehicle would. I consider this a benefit that a sidewalk rider would not have. I have received excellent treatment when crossing or turning at intersections, so much so that I haven't had any motorists violate my ROW or had any close calls in over a year.
Can someone explain how this is "faring better?" Perhaps I just don't get the concept.
I do believe that question has already been raised to the "faring best" mantra spouters about how "faring best" is measured; what are the "faring best" metrics used by those self proclaimed devout believers in the scientific principles of the Effectiveness of Vehicular Cycling. The silence from the gurus has been deafening.
I do believe that question has already been raised to the "faring best" mantra spouters about how "faring best" is measured; what are the "faring best" metrics used by those self proclaimed devout believers in the scientific principles of the Effectiveness of Vehicular Cycling. The silence from the gurus has been deafening.
Faring best (to me):
1. riding the road that takes me where I want to go as efficiently as possible (fewest stops and right of way issues and the most ideal surface for cycling)
2. having the freedom to go wherever the road system allows me to go
So how do I get all the sidewalk riders in my part of town to stop riding on the sidewalks? It sets up the expectation of motorists that I am doing it wrong when I ride vehicularly in the street.
I guess the only thing to do is to show motorists that riding in the street is normal by doing it. That's all I can figure, sort of turning it upside down, so motorists will begin to expect cyclists in the street, too.
All of the stories in this discussion are about one subject, the one subject that nobody mentions. They all are illustrations of the American cyclist-inferiority superstition. That's what causes all these problems, and it will be impossible to correct them as long as this superstition controls public opinion.
Those who argue that bike lanes correct the problem are wrong, because bike-lane stripes are the official symbol of that superstition. They reinforce that superstition. While they get part-way to a reasonable solution, they cannot get any further because their own presence is the official statement of the cyclist-inferiority superstition institutionalized into permanent facilities. We have to fight the superstition; achieving that will cause the problems to be almost self-correcting.
All of the stories in this discussion are about one subject, the one subject that nobody mentions. They all are illustrations of the American cyclist-inferiority superstition. That's what causes all these problems, and it will be impossible to correct them as long as this superstition controls public opinion.
Those who argue that bike lanes correct the problem are wrong, because bike-lane stripes are the official symbol of that superstition. They reinforce that superstition. While they get part-way to a reasonable solution, they cannot get any further because their own presence is the official statement of the cyclist-inferiority superstition institutionalized into permanent facilities. We have to fight the superstition; achieving that will cause the problems to be almost self-correcting.
OK how do you train all those sidewalk cyclists to become regular VC riders. How can one even communicate with them... they probably don't go to bike shops and are probably quite content with their current situation.
So how do you convince them that riding on the sidewalk is not as safe as riding out in traffic with upset motorists moving at some speed much greater than the cyclists.
Superstition or not... go back and look at post 31 (http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=4779864&postcount=31)and tell me exactly how a vehicular street cyclist is "faring better."
I guess the only thing to do is to show motorists that riding in the street is normal by doing it. That's all I can figure, sort of turning it upside down, so motorists will begin to expect cyclists in the street, too.
That is exactly what I do. The motorists do not like it, and cite as examples the very visible cyclists on the sidewalk... "You should be over there with them!!!" And of course: "Git on the sidewalk!"
Faring best (to me):
1. riding the road that takes me where I want to go as efficiently as possible (fewest stops and right of way issues and the most ideal surface for cycling)
2. having the freedom to go wherever the road system allows me to go
So far nothing you have said is any different for sidewalk cyclists.... excepting the efficiently issue... and that is arguable by the fact that your "efficiency" is "robbing" motorists of theirs. In order for me to ride in the street, at my best speeds... I am still slowing down one or more motorists...
So is your efficiency of greater "value" than a motorists?
Does your need for speed supersede that of motorists'?
We all talk about the need to ride in the street so we are not slowed down by peds etc, yet we are slowing motorists on streets like this... why is it we cyclists cannot slow down for pedestrians, yet we expect others to slow down for us? This is the big 400lb gorilla in the room that no one wants to talk about.
BTW for the record, there are no bike lanes involved. These are narrow old streets lined with parked cars.
...Bike lanes are from the Devil...
:rolleyes:
I believe that getting cyclists off the side walk is why bike lanes are there in the first place. But if you can't have them, you're going to have sidewalk cyclists. I don't care what John Forester and his ilk say about it, if there is no on-street place (striped or not, and if not it darn well better be a HUGE space or motorists are going to claim it) for cyclists to ride that is more appealing than the sidewalk, you aren't going to get people determined to ride on the sidewalk to stop.
OK how do you train all those sidewalk cyclists to become regular VC riders. How can one even communicate with them... they probably don't go to bike shops and are probably quite content with their current situation.
So how do you convince them that riding on the sidewalk is not as safe as riding out in traffic with upset motorists moving at some speed much greater than the cyclists.
Superstition or not... go back and look at post 31 (http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=4779864&postcount=31)and tell me exactly how a vehicular street cyclist is "faring better."
Here is post #31:
"Well it comes down to this... am I faring better?
Let's do a bit of comparison:
The sidewalk cyclist is perhaps moving at 10-12 MPH with perhaps an average speed of 8MPH. They must be vigilant at all intersections. They must not hit pedestrians. There is no fear of the door zone, nor does the sidwalk cyclist have to check a mirror to watch for approaching motorists. Nor does the sidewalk cyclist have to be concerned with parked cars suddenly leaving their spot.
The VC street cyclist is moving at perhaps 17-20+MPH depending on conditions, they might average about 16MPH (these numbers come right from my bike computer). they must be vigilant at all the same intersections. The street cyclist must not hit pedestrians... who generally only appear at intersections... but also sometimes pop out of cars, and sometimes cross the street or come out from the curb to open car doors. The street cyclist must be vigilant for the door zone, and for cars leaving parking spots. The street cyclist is also harassed by motorists, and must maintain some awareness of approaching motorists from behind.
So in comparison:
The street cyclist arrives in half the time... Fared better.
The sidewalk cyclist has less to be vigilant for... Fared better
The street cyclist is harassed... oops, Fared worse.
Throw in the fact the the street cyclist is working harder to move at higher speed... oops more sweat... the sidewalk cyclist is merely cruising at their speed and can perhaps arrive "fresher." OK you argue... the street cyclist could slow down... No, that tends to increase the harassement factor.
Well what about the exercise issue... well, the street cyclist is pushing harder, but for a shorter period... the sidewalk cyclist is going to be moderately exercising for about twice as long.
OK based on the comparisons, I cannot see how the VC street cyclist "fared better." They arrived in half the time, all sweaty, and were harrased and had to be more vigilant. Can someone explain how this is "faring better?" Perhaps I just don't get the concept."
The fact that you equate the necessary actions by sidewalk cyclists and by roadway cyclists as merely being vigilant at intersections shows that you have little understanding of what actually occurs under these two conditions, and, in either case, you fail to consider the actions of motorists. Even if only "vigilance" is considered, the arcs of vigilance for the four different persons are different, so much so that it is humanly impossible for persons to cover all the arcs required for sidewalk cycling in the time available. Then there are the actions to be taken once vigilance has provided the information, and these are more difficult for the sidewalk cyclist than for the road cyclist. All of this has been known for thirty years; I suggest that you read up on the subject before you pontificate any more.
So tell us, John. Can you provide some statistics showing how well your methods have gotten cyclists off the sidewalks? Hows the improvement rate in that area since you began your crusade?
If there is no on-street place (striped or not, and if not it darn well better be a HUGE space or motorists are going to claim it) for cyclists to ride that is more appealing than the sidewalk, you aren't going to get people determined to ride on the sidewalk to stop.
+1. Reality isn't always based on logic.
The fact that you equate the necessary actions by sidewalk cyclists and by roadway cyclists as merely being vigilant at intersections shows that you have little understanding of what actually occurs under these two conditions, and, in either case, you fail to consider the actions of motorists. Even if only "vigilance" is considered, the arcs of vigilance for the four different persons are different, so much so that it is humanly impossible for persons to cover all the arcs required for sidewalk cycling in the time available. Then there are the actions to be taken once vigilance has provided the information, and these are more difficult for the sidewalk cyclist than for the road cyclist. All of this has been known for thirty years; I suggest that you read up on the subject before you pontificate any more.
John, I have actually done the same routes by both means... by using the VC method (my primary means of cycling) in the street using either a Saninno road bike or my custom flat bar commuter bike; and by sidewalk cycling on my curved toptube Huffy fat tire bike. I know exactly what it takes to negotiate intersections using either method.
The fact that you merely suggest that I "READ" up on the subject says mountains for me. I actually do the things I am speaking of, rather then academically pontificate about them.
My use of the term "being vigilant" was simply a means to reduce the writing clutter that a complex description would entail, much as your shortcutted "cyclists fare best..." slogan also achieves.
The bottom line is that the sidewalk cyclists feel quite satisfied in the results they achieve... how then can they be convinced that their method is far inferior... especially with such a worthless response as you have provided.
Oh, and above all... the whole reason for my queary here is to get sidewalk riding cyclists to ride in the street... Just like me. So motorists will be more accepting of what I do, rather than verbally insisting that I too should ride on sidewalks. But since sidewalk cyclists are apparenltly quite comfortable with what they do, and they too don't see street cycling as "faring better," I was hoping you had some real answers, vice the typical noise about "superstitions" and merely "reading."
Try again.
So far nothing you have said is any different for sidewalk cyclists.... excepting the efficiently issue... and that is arguable by the fact that your "efficiency" is "robbing" motorists of theirs. In order for me to ride in the street, at my best speeds... I am still slowing down one or more motorists...
So is your efficiency of greater "value" than a motorists?
Does your need for speed supersede that of motorists'?
We all talk about the need to ride in the street so we are not slowed down by peds etc, yet we are slowing motorists on streets like this... why is it we cyclists cannot slow down for pedestrians, yet we expect others to slow down for us? This is the big 400lb gorilla in the room that no one wants to talk about.
For a motorist to slow to 10mph from 50mph for 30 seconds may cost them 30 extra seconds on their trip. More than likely, they'd have just arrived at the next traffic light 30 seconds earlier in which case you did not delay them at all. If you averaged our their commute times based on having to slow for a few cyclists in the roadway or not having to at all, I'm 100% certain that the difference would be negligible if it were noticeable at all. so my efficiency does not come at the cost of any one else's efficiency regardless of how much they want to complain about having to slow for a cyclist (where's the complaining about those traffic lights and left turners?).
It's not so much a matter of being slowed by peds (although that is a small part of it) as much as it is negotiating around unpredictable traffic on foot, especially on a narrow sidewalk. Avoiding traffic that is unpredictable the majority of the time is a good idea when operating a vehicle like a bicycle if you want to move at a reasonable speed.
As to sidewalks providing the same connectivity at the streets, I don't know about where you live but around here you're SOL if you need a sidewalk to get everywhere. Some of the main arterials have sidewalks (although often not for their entire length) but almost all minor roads have nothing. Maybe it's just an eastern suburb thing though. Cities tend to have better sidewalk connectivity but it's also illegal to cycle on the sidewalks in all of the nearby cities.
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