Classic & Vintage - Older Campy help/i.d.

Hi guys, another question thread about a Marinoni. I am hoping someone can shed some light on this groupo from a Marinoni that I am seeing tomorrow. I don't know much about Campy, can anyone tell me the name of the group and it's approximate value? Thanks!

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j103/jetsanchEz/pro.jpg

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j103/jetsanchEz/m-023.jpg

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j103/jetsanchEz/m-027.jpg

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j103/jetsanchEz/m-043.jpg

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j103/jetsanchEz/m-037.jpg

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j103/jetsanchEz/m-056.jpg

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j103/jetsanchEz/m-028.jpg

Looks like early Nuovo Record Gruppo - often incorrectly referred to as the C-Record gruppo, but just try to find that designation in any Campagnolo publication - you wont. 1986-89 or so. The chainset is NOT the Nuovo Record however, that had an upside down 5 arm spider. This looks like one of the alternaive cranks of the time, maybe a newer Gran Sport crank with the 116mm BCD rings. (The 1984 GS crank has milled flutes - not a nice as the record cranks though). no idea on the value.

The 1986 rear derailleur of the Nuovo Record Gruppo had a solid cage, this one is hollow. Might be a late 80s not the original 1986 version.

I see, thanks. I am not super-concerned about the value of the components, I just wanted to know where they fall in the Campy hierarchy as that might give me an idea of the value of the entire bike. Would you say that this is about the same level as Shimano 105? I am guessing it is a higher end bike as the seller has indicated that the tubing is Columbia (sic), so I think it might be SL. Thanks for the input!

Looks more like a Nuovo Victory or Nuovo Triomphe gruppo to me. Look at a catalog here:
http://www.tuttocampybici.com/downloadcatalog.php?code=nv-nt87

Triomphe/Victory. Entry level racing introduced in '86.
from campyonly:
http://www.campyonly.com/images/history/1980s/victory_gruppo.jpg

Looks like early Nuovo Record Gruppo - often incorrectly referred to as the C-Record gruppo, but just try to find that designation in any Campagnolo publication - you wont. 1986-89 or so. The chainset is NOT the Nuovo Record however, that had an upside down 5 arm spider. This looks like one of the alternaive cranks of the time, maybe a newer Gran Sport crank with the 116mm BCD rings. (The 1984 GS crank has milled flutes - not a nice as the record cranks though). no idea on the value.

The 1986 rear derailleur of the Nuovo Record Gruppo had a solid cage, this one is hollow. Might be a late 80s not the original 1986 version.

Campy bike expert? I think not! :)

Looks more like a Nuovo Victory or Nuovo Triomphe gruppo to me. Look at a catalog here:
http://www.tuttocampybici.com/downloadcatalog.php?code=nv-nt87
My guess is Victory, but it's hard to tell the difference. Given that the crank has "quick release" dustcaps and the FD appearance, I think it's not the slightly lower-cost Triomphe...but both these groups function about the same. It's kind of a shame that the smaller BCD of the crank didn't catch on, could have given us a lot more choice in road chainring sizes. These "economy" gruppos did show up on SL frames, but more commonly on Aelle. The Marinoni has a flashy chrome fork, so I'd guess it's likely an SL.

Campy bike expert? I think not! :)

Hear hear!

I'm gonna say Victory because of the white hoods and upper jockey pulley on the RD. Of course we need to see the design of the upper pivot stop to be sure.

Also.. Jet... Don't shy away if it has a tretubi sticker. I have a marinoni with a tretubi sticker and it is an SP main frame and cromor stays/fork... A B model for marinoni but a damn nice bike nontheless.

Campy bike expert? I think not! :)

I don't generally delve past 1986 on this stuff, especially after the Nuovo Record Gruppo was introduced - I flat out didn't like it at all, and pretty much ignored it and all following releases. If my memory on the group failed me at 1:30am and I got the name wrong, I at least pegged the year right. It was AFTER 1986, and therefore after my interest level. So throw me in a briat patch :D

And those were the same rings fron the Gran Sport group of 1984. Campagnolo did this a lot, kept a functional component in use on a new series.

I don't generally delve past 1986 on this stuff, especially after the Nuovo Record Gruppo was introduced - I flat out didn't like it at all, and pretty much ignored it and all following releases. If my memory on the group failed me at 1:30am and I got the name wrong, I at least pegged the year right. It was AFTER 1986, and therefore after my interest level. So throw me in a briat patch :D

You don't like anything after nuovo record!? So you don't like any campy after 1968?


And those were the same rings fron the Gran Sport group of 1984. Campagnolo did this a lot, kept a functional component in use on a new series.

and that is what makes IDing campy fun and challenging at times and often leads to incorrect IDs....

Speaking of Marinoni I saw a beaut last saturday; some guy from outta town came to our club race. Figured it had to be an early 90s one - indexed downtube shifters anyway. white, all chromed stays (including seatstays), also full chromed fork. White and chrome work really well together.

If my memory on the group failed me at 1:30am and I got the name wrong, I at least pegged the year right. It was AFTER 1986, and therefore after my interest level.

Got another nitpick for you - Victory was released in 1985 and remained identical through 1986. The 1987 group featured slightly different RD styling and was renamed "Victory S3." (a.k.a. Victory Series 3). Of note, the Triomphe derailer of '87 - likewise, renamed "Triomphe S3" in '87 - was identical to the Victory S3, as opposed to the '85-6 gruppos in where both gruppo's derailers had a number of functional and minor cosmetic differences. In 1988, both groups did away with the engraved logo, and used the newer Campagnolo silkscreened script logo.

The Marinoni in the photos is sporting a complete 1985 (I believe "11" is '85, correct?) Victory gruppo. To be entirely sure, check the RD to see if it has the following nylon insert in it:

1985:
http://www.jaysmarine.com/TH_campag_RD_victory_85var.jpg

1986:
http://www.jaysmarine.com/TH_campag_RD_victory_87var.jpg



And those were the same rings fron the Gran Sport group of 1984. Campagnolo did this a lot, kept a functional component in use on a new series.

Grand Sport Touring group only - it was used on the G.S. triple. The standard G.S. road gruppo used the traditional steel three-pin crankset, or a similar 3-pin aluminum crankset.

Take care,

-Kurt

Kurt, I DO have a 1984 brochure showing victory, triomphe and record (what we know as C-record though it doesn't actually name it as such) concurrently with super and nuovo record.

Edit: the 1987 Nuovo Victory/Triomphe catalogue shows both groups sporting white brake lever hoods and white derailleur pulley though previously the triomphe was gum/black hoods and wheels respectively ('84 brochure) and black/black in the 18bis catalogue (86 i think).

Of additional note is the QR nut appears to be of the Nuovo Tipo or gran sport variety... could be Nuovo Tipo hubs or replacement skewer/nut. You will be able to tell based on the logo. Should be QR wing logo for Tipo and shield for victory.

Got another nitpick for you - Victory was released in 1985 and remained identical through 1986. The 1987 group featured slightly different RD styling and was renamed "Victory S3." (a.k.a. Victory Series 3). Of note, the Triomphe derailer of '87 - likewise, renamed "Triomphe S3" in '87 - was identical to the Victory S3, as opposed to the '85-6 gruppos in where both gruppo's derailers had a number of functional and minor cosmetic differences. In 1988, both groups did away with the engraved logo, and used the newer Campagnolo silkscreened script logo.

The Marinoni in the photos is sporting a complete 1985 (I believe "11" is '85, correct?) Victory gruppo. To be entirely sure, check the RD to see if it has the following nylon insert in it:

1985:
http://www.jaysmarine.com/TH_campag_RD_victory_85var.jpg

1986:
http://www.jaysmarine.com/TH_campag_RD_victory_87var.jpg




Grand Sport Touring group only - it was used on the G.S. triple. The standard G.S. road gruppo used the traditional steel three-pin crankset, or a similar 3-pin aluminum crankset.

Take care,

-Kurt


However: by 1982 the GS road group had a 5 arm spider similar in appearance to the Record cranks but with less refined stamped or forged "fluting" (as opposed the the finely milled flutes on the Record cranks) and no shield around the logo. It used the same chainrings as the Record road chainrings. The Touring cranks were much smaller BCD, 116mm as opposed to 144mm, this allowed real "granny gears" for the first time. and the group came with the infamous - now hard to find Rally derailleur.

You don't like anything after nuovo record!? So you don't like any campy after 1968?



and that is what makes IDing campy fun and challenging at times and often leads to incorrect IDs....

Hold on a minute. I said 86 not 68. :eek: And it's not that I don't "like" it, I just don't prefer it. I wouldn't throw away an 86 Nuovo Record equipped bike if I came into one by some means, but I'm not rushing out to find one either. (I don't do italian steel either and finding a late 80s Reynolds frame with Campy Record is very hard indeed). I was working in a bike shop back then and when the "Nuovo Record Gruppo" came out, I didn't like the crank arms, rear derailleur or brakes. They appeared far too "over designed" for me, so I pretty much kept my bike the way it was, with the late 70s Record / Super Record equipment. Please bear in mind that the original "Record" group had many individual "Nuovo record" items in it, like the rear derailleur, and FD after 1978), etc. I just liked their appearance much more. The company made and still makes fine equipment, but I like the way the older stuff looks a lot better, and it fits my bike as well.

I did buy a Pat 81 SR rear derailleur though and if I can't find a nice Pat 78 one, I'll put it on my bike - after i get the SR front changer properly aligned.

If you wonder why i don't do italian steel, just look up the M 13/40 tank. I'd take 1 Matilda over 10 of those any day.

I don't generally delve past 1986 on this stuff, especially after the Nuovo Record Gruppo was introduced

I was just ribbing you because of this statement. The way it's worded suggests you don't like anything after the Nuovo Record was introduced.

I was just ribbing you because of this statement. The way it's worded suggests you don't like anything after the Nuovo Record was introduced.

OK, I really meant Nuovo Record Group in 86, not NR derailleur. I should have clarified that.

Kurt, I DO have a 1984 brochure showing victory, triomphe and record (what we know as C-record though it doesn't actually name it as such) concurrently with super and nuovo record.

Edit: the 1987 Nuovo Victory/Triomphe catalogue shows both groups sporting white brake lever hoods and white derailleur pulley though previously the triomphe was gum/black hoods and wheels respectively ('84 brochure) and black/black in the 18bis catalogue (86 i think).

Of additional note is the QR nut appears to be of the Nuovo Tipo or gran sport variety... could be Nuovo Tipo hubs or replacement skewer/nut. You will be able to tell based on the logo. Should be QR wing logo for Tipo and shield for victory.


Campagnolo STILL used that QR nut up to 85-86 on the Nuovo Tipo hubs!?! Look at a Catalog 18 exploded diagram.

OK, I really meant Nuovo Record Group in 86, not NR derailleur. I should have clarified that.

I would still argue that technically Nuovo record was considered a full group in 1978. It is called the nuovo record group in the catalogue and seems fit as a differentiation from super record group. As you said Campagnolo used many of the same parts from old groups in new group (like GS to victory/triomphe etc..). I think most of us think of early 70s record as Nuovo Record. It is the new record and you could not get the old record changers anymore, even if the catalogues still say Record group as opposed to Nuovo Record group.

Campagnolo STILL used that QR nut up to 85-86 on the Nuovo Tipo hubs!?! Look at a Catalog 18 exploded diagram.

No one is saying they didn't. The original intention of the thread was to ID the campy bits, which is all I said, there was no suggestion of time frame.

However: by 1982 the GS road group had a 5 arm spider similar in appearance to the Record cranks but with less refined stamped or forged "fluting" (as opposed the the finely milled flutes on the Record cranks) and no shield around the logo.

Right - I forgot that variant. A slightly bulkier, less-refined version of the NR crank.

-Kurt

I would still argue that technically Nuovo record was considered a full group in 1978. It is called the nuovo record group in the catalogue and seems fit as a differentiation from super record group. As you said Campagnolo used many of the same parts from old groups in new group (like GS to victory/triomphe etc..). I think most of us think of early 70s record as Nuovo Record. It is the new record and you could not get the old record changers anymore, even if the catalogues still say Record group as opposed to Nuovo Record group.

There is no 1978 catalog, only the 1978 17a supplement which only lists about a dozen new items, including oddly enough a "record front changer" which is the 4 cutouts design and probably should have been called a Nuovo Record changer). The 17a catalog is a 1975 one and it does say Nuovo Record Road Group, but the track group is just Record. Then in 1984-86 with Catalog 18, it's once again called the Record Road group. Of course the Nouvo Gran Sport rear derailleur was introduced back in the 50s, then it re-appears in the 70s and bounces from Gran Sport to Nuovo Gran Sport in the catalogs?!? I guess Campagnolo was about as consistent with their naming conventions as the Canon camera company is.

...Of course the Nouvo Gran Sport rear derailleur was introduced back in the 50s, then it re-appears in the 70s and bounces from Gran Sport to Nuovo Gran Sport in the catalogs?!? I guess Campagnolo was about as consistent with their naming conventions as the Canon camera company is.

Their catalogue naming conventions may have left a good deal to be desired, but I have yet to see one of the '70s G.S. derailers sans "Nuovo" in the name on the parallelogram. As far as I'm concerned, the '70s era GS is "Nuovo Gran Sport."

-Kurt

There is no 1978 catalog, only the 1978 17a supplement which only lists about a dozen new items, including oddly enough a "record front changer" which is the 4 cutouts design and probably should have been called a Nuovo Record changer). The 17a catalog is a 1975 one and it does say Nuovo Record Road Group, but the track group is just Record. Then in 1984-86 with Catalog 18, it's once again called the Record Road group. Of course the Nouvo Gran Sport rear derailleur was introduced back in the 50s, then it re-appears in the 70s and bounces from Gran Sport to Nuovo Gran Sport in the catalogs?!? I guess Campagnolo was about as consistent with their naming conventions as the Canon camera company is.

I apologise I must have been looking at the 17a... so I am mistaken it is earlier than 1978...
Looks like it says nuovo record road group to me... 1975... 17a...
http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j282/abier622/1975NRgroup.jpg

Wow, that is a ton of information, thanks guys! I put off seeing the bike as it was raining here today but I will hopefully be able to see it tomorrow. So it seems to be a fairly good group, is that right? The frame looks nice and the paintjob would put it at around 1986 or so, I just hope it doesn't need too much work (if I decide to get it----is 400$CDN too high?!)

I have Triomphe on one of my bikes & the group on that Marinoni is the Victory group. Jones Bikes was selling some NOS cranks & derailleurs on e-Bay recently at fairly low prices. edit: Just this one & a Triomphe derailleur rebuild kit right now http://cgi.ebay.com/Campagnolo-Victory-Crankset-53-42-170mm-NOS_W0QQitemZ200125744169QQihZ010QQcategoryZ56195QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

cadillacmike68, cyclotoine, and cudak888, thank you for a most enjoyable debate. If I'm like most everyone else, you lost me in the finer details of this exchange, but it was fun to read your "back and forth."

Might we call you the Three "Italian" Tenors of C&V? :p

"Performing this evening, are three of the worlds best! Virtuosos of all components Italian! Spanning the generations with an ease and fluidity never before seen in public! Your eyes and ears will be dazzled as you become immersed in all things Campagnolo!"
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y255/kittykatzmeow77/Animals/Wolves/10118285a_b.jpg

Now remember, don't bite! ;)

... (if I decide to get it----is 400$CDN too high?!)

Now now. Only one person can answer that question, and that person is the famous Spanish fighter pilot - jet senchEz. :o :D

I have Triomphe on one of my bikes & the group on that Marinoni is the Victory group. Jones Bikes was selling some NOS cranks & derailleurs on e-Bay recently at fairly low prices. edit: Just this one & a Triomphe derailleur rebuild kit right now http://cgi.ebay.com/Campagnolo-Victory-Crankset-53-42-170mm-NOS_W0QQitemZ200125744169QQihZ010QQcategoryZ56195QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

It's a Victory crankset, not Triomphe. Bought my last one off of eBay for around $22...shipped. I consider anything over $30 for either variant a royal rip-off. Sure, they do go up to $80 at times (despite one of the other eBay sellers commonly selling them with BIN's of $52), but a number of them sell for under $30.

Oh, and back to the O/P's question:

"Is $400 CDN too much?"

$400 CDN = $423.68 U.S. at this minute - you bet it's too much. Victory-equipped machines are usually fodder for the $200-300 range; take $100 off those prices for local bikes. The scratched Marinoni decals don't help. Looks like the freewheel pawls are sticking as well. I've seen better pearlescent paint jobs too.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I think you can do better at the tune of $423 clams - even on eBay.

-Kurt

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I think you can do better at the tune of $423 clams - even on eBay.

-Kurt

Yes, these were my thoughts as well, that is why I created this thread, to see how good the components were as I know very little about Campy stuff. My Shimano 600 equipped SLX Razesa was a hair over 200$USD from eBay, shipped, so yeah, this Marinoni would have had to have been a really nicely equipped ride to beat that catch.

I will still see it, if only to ride it for future reference....I think it would be nice to own a good Canadian brand one day.

Yes, these were my thoughts as well, that is why I created this thread, to see how good the components were as I know very little about Campy stuff. My Shimano 600 equipped SLX Razesa was a hair over 200$USD from eBay, shipped, so yeah, this Marinoni would have had to have been a really nicely equipped ride to beat that catch.

I will still see it, if only to ride it for future reference....I think it would be nice to own a good Canadian brand one day.

I'm not saying the components are bad, Jet - IMHO, Victory was pretty much the pinnacle of mechanical refinement to the Super Record group. Mechanically and geometrically speaking, the two groups are pretty much identical - they've just been styled completely differently.

Personally, I believe the Victory group solved the main problem with the SR group and those that had come before it (mainly NR!) - a reliable and adjustable derailer top pivot. As you can see, the Victory parallelogram on the Marinoni sits quite far forward, and can be set farther forward if one wishes (or vise-versa) to compensate for the freewheel size, and most importantly IMHO, to compensate for differing limit stops on various rear dropouts.

SR couldn't do this, although it did sit forward a good deal, NR's stop was fixed as well, and as it sat closer to a vertical position, shifted even worse, particularly when in the big ring on corncob freewheels, and finally, Triomphe, 990 and 980 were probably the worst examples of this problem, sitting nearly vertical in the dropout, causing insufficient chain wrap on most all smaller cogs (bet it was marketing - only thing they could do to convince anyone to move up to Victory!). One can easily grind the stop on the Triomphe, 980 or 990 derailers if they wish, and ultimately cure the problem, but even for the sake of better performance, I wonder if most folks here would ruin the originality of the derailers by doing so - might as well just upgrade the RD to a Victory.

The first generations of C-Record, of course, were also the first to have a sprung top pivot and stop, which made them excellent performers, but, unlike the Victory's RD, the stop was known for cracking, thereby rendering the derailer useless, unless you could dig up a replacement (fat chance - they appear on eBay once in a blue moon...from the same seller). For that reason, I rate the Victory a better performer then C-Record (yea, I see the CR group descending on me with flaming aerobars)...

Unfortunately, none of this equates into a valuable gruppo - just one that is mechanically excellent, as Victory is. Most of my machines are equipped with the Victory or Triomphe S3 (RD is the same as Victory S3 by this time) groups, for I find they have the most bang for the buck.

P.S.: If you want a full C-Record Marinoni, here's one for $500 CDN:

http://vancouver.craigslist.org/bik/366610742.html

That one is worth it.

-Kurt

. . .
$400 CDN = $423.68 U.S. at this minute -
. . .
-Kurt

Actually $400 CDN is $378.52 USD.

I think you converted the wrong way.
still a bit much if you ask me.

Marty

P.S.: If you want a full C-Record Marinoni, here's one for $500 CDN:

http://vancouver.craigslist.org/bik/366610742.html

That one is worth it.

-Kurt

Hey stop it! I'm going to pick that one tonight. I will tell you guys all about it. I have my doubts about C-record because of the monoplaner brakes... but lets hope it just didn't want deltas and it really is all c-record. It's staying in my bedroom.

I, unless you could dig up a replacement (fat chance - they appear on eBay once in a blue moon...from the same seller).
-Kurt

There from switzerland I think, I bought one for about $20 shipped and it is made out of stainless steel. I refurbed a C-record RD with it and ended up trading it to Moki... You can see it on his Rossin.

"It's a Victory crankset, not Triomphe"
That's what I was trying to say in my obtuse way & included the link to show a Victory. I agree on the pricing, I got a Triomphe crankset for $25 so they are cheap for Campy.

cadillacmike68, cyclotoine, and cudak888, thank you for a most enjoyable debate. If I'm like most everyone else, you lost me in the finer details of this exchange, but it was fun to read your "back and forth."

Might we call you the Three "Italian" Tenors of C&V? :p

"Performing this evening, are three of the worlds best! Virtuosos of all components Italian! Spanning the generations with an ease and fluidity never before seen in public! Your eyes and ears will be dazzled as you become immersed in all things Campagnolo!"
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y255/kittykatzmeow77/Animals/Wolves/10118285a_b.jpg

Now remember, don't bite! ;)

Just don't call me late for dinner :D

I'm actually a British Steel snob - Reynolds only for me thank you, but Campagnolo had and still has the finest cycling components, I'm just not fond of the newer stuff.

I'm not saying the components are bad, Jet - IMHO, Victory was pretty much the pinnacle of mechanical refinement to the Super Record group. Mechanically and geometrically speaking, the two groups are pretty much identical - they've just been styled completely differently.

Personally, I believe the Victory group solved the main problem with the SR group and those that had come before it (mainly NR!) - a reliable and adjustable derailer top pivot. As you can see, the Victory parallelogram on the Marinoni sits quite far forward, and can be set farther forward if one wishes (or vise-versa) to compensate for the freewheel size, and most importantly IMHO, to compensate for differing limit stops on various rear dropouts. -Kurt

I don't think Victory was a successor to SR; Record and Super Record were absorbed in the New Record line. Victory and Triomphe were stratifications of the Gran Sport line. Just look at some of the carry-over parts used.

I don't think Victory was a successor to SR; Record and Super Record were absorbed in the New Record line. Victory and Triomphe were stratifications of the Gran Sport line. Just look at some of the carry-over parts used.

By no means is Victory the succesor of SR in terms of the Campagnolo hierarchy. I meant to convey the message that Victory itself, whether it was the intention of Campagnolo or not to make it so, is, in my opinion, the ultimate in refinement of all the groups that preceded it. While NR/SR and Victory may appear nothing alike in styling, the basic mechanical geometry of the groups have remained the same, with refinements made along the way - most notably, the re-designed pulley cage plate and shallower parallelogram angle first used on Super Record 2nd gen, and brought to perfection with the Victory's 3-position stop.

Measure the physical geometry of the SR derailer against the Victory, and you will see the entire geometry is the same - only the styling differs.

Take care,

-Kurt