Mountain Biking - Whats up with horses being able to use the trails but we can't

I just got back from backpacking by Mt. Adams (Washington) and on my way down I was noting that this trail would be awesome to bike down (not up). Its full of technical roots and rocks and the occasional creek that would go through the trail every once in while. I couldn't help noticing all of the horse crud on the trail also. Whats up with this? I mean how distructive could mountain biking be compared to horses? Sorry, this kinda turned into a rant.

Bikes have a tendency to scare horses, so keeping bikes off horses trails makes good sense.

I actually heard the arguement presented that horses are more environmentally friendy..

HA Ever been on a trail after a group of 10 or more horses? It destroys everything.

Best thing is that mountain bikes don't Sh!* all over the trail! :D

Cowboys have guns. 'nuff said.

Originally posted by SamDaBikinMan
I actually heard the arguement presented that horses are more environmentally friendy..

HA Ever been on a trail after a group of 10 or more horses? It destroys everything.

Best thing is that mountain bikes don't Sh!* all over the trail! :D

Werd Sam. And horses leave massive dents in the ground and tear up the soil in addition to smelling bad and promoting disease. But try and tell that to the hippie anti-mountain bikers. We might as well be dirtbikers for all they care. In my opinion a 2 inch tire will do less damage than my size 12 hiking boots :rolleyes:


Mountain bikers are grossly misrepresented as a bunch of punk kids who like to tear up the trails we ride, which isn't true.


BTW... how's life treating you, Sam?

Just curious...what disease do horses promote exactly?

What's up with people calling anyone against anything a hippie? Most hippies I know are pro-mountain biking, not against it.

That said, it is rediculous that mountain bikes are barred from so many trails that are open to other uses. If a horse can go on it, then we should to. The argument that it could startle horses is bogus. Horses are not wimps.

I also find it funny when hikers get angry at us mountain bikers when we come bombing down a hill that they are walking up. Why do they think they have any more right to use the trail than we do? Also, I really don't think most of them understand that we are really in control of the bike, and are not endangering anyone.

When I'm hiking up a hill I have no qualms about anyone else using the trail how they wish, unless they are being disrespectful of the trail.

And they call us the punks!!!:rolleyes:

Thank you gonesh. While I am far from a hippie (actually a concervative) my views on environment are very hippyish. If you took a look at whistler 15 years ago it was a pure hippy town to be one with the environment. Hippies don't hate mountain biking at all. Only ignorant environmentalists.

Mtbers are lumped in with the skater/bmx crowd which in and of itself is judged wrong. But that is where we lie in the publics view :)

Most of the people who are anti-mountain bike are the ones who've been run off the trail or disrespected. They stereotype, basically.

Originally posted by DieselDan
Bikes have a tendency to scare horses, so keeping bikes off horses trails makes good sense.

What made them horse trails? They're more hiking trails than anything.

I can understand there is the occasional wreckless punks that fly down the hill and then see how long they can make a skid mark, but thats a small percentage of us. Is there somewhere I can go to try and make it a mtb trail?

reminds me of the article in bicycling magazine about marin's mt. tam.

In order to own a horse, you must have a substantial income, (or at least budget a large % of what you do have). To own multiple horses requires A LOT of money. People with a lot of money usually have friends with a lot of money. These friends have more friends and this group ends up a big political lobby. This lobby can hire "Lobbyist" to represent their interests in political matters such as trail use. When you have good representation, you get what you want.

Mtn bikers and cyclists in general, represent a large portion of the population with a lot of money as well, we're just NOT organized. IMBA tries and is doing a fair job of it, but most mtn bikers I know are not affiliated with IMBA. If every mtn biker spent the $25 a year to join, there would be a HUGE contingent of mtn bikers voices being heard!

Want to protect your trails? Join IMBA and volunteer for trail maintenance days with a local club. IOW, get involved!

L8R

Well said a2psyklnut! I was going to bring up this response but you beat me to it. Also the categorizing of equestrians is just as bad as the categorizing of cyclists.

I've never seen a horse lock up it's back hooves going down a hill.

MTB's cause erosion :D

You don't watch enough westerns. You know, where the bad guys are being chased and they come up to a steep ravine, the cowboy goes for it and both are sliding down the hill, usually ending up splashing into a stream!

I've seen more erosion caused by hooves than by any mtn bike tire. The hooves seem to dig in and then pick up the soil, where a tire (pneumatic) tends to compact the soil.

Plus, we don't crap all over the trail! (Good reason for front fender use!)

L8R

Originally posted by chewa
I've never seen a horse lock up it's back hooves going down a hill.

MTB's cause erosion :D

Which can be fixed by responsible and skilled trail builders.

As an avid equestrian who rides professionally and a cyclist that rides close to every day this thread has really made me upset.

First of all I have to say that the generalization of people who own horses have tons of money is incrediably incorrect. The majority of people who ride or own horses have modest incomes and just simply choose to spend their money for hobbies on horses just like you spend it on bikes. This is just as bad as saying all MTB are punks!!!

Saying that horses are bad for a trail because they crap all over the place, really people! Fertilization!!

Also bikes do scare horses!! Alot of cyclist forget to call out to the rider and pass by them very quickly!! Horses can see behind them and will see you on a bike much quicker than you would think. Combining a slightly frightened horse an amateur rider and a cyclist will just cause chaos! A lot of people going out with their horses on the trail are usually amateur riders and if they are not they usually have an amateur rider along with them.

As far as tearing up the trail because of their shoes. Is correct. Most horses have shoes on, this is what tears up the trail. But by having designated areas for MTB and horses you reduce your chance of biking into a "torn up trail". You also reduce your chances of a runaway horse with a rider or cyclist that's hurt just because of impatience and lack of open mindness between both parties.

So please if you see a horse out on the road or trail please call out to them and slow down and give that horse a wide berth so he can clearly see you.

Thanks!

Originally posted by chewa
I've never seen a horse lock up it's back hooves going down a hill.
D

It can happen if you want to call it "locking up" it is common on ditch embankments, where they will slide down and tear back out of the ditch, a place where a biker would either get off their bike or jump down into it and throw their bike up on the other side

I live in this debate weekly, my wife rides horses and we own three horses (soon to be two), and she rides on some of the same trails that I bike on, so I hear both sides of this story, and my solution was to have a trail clean-up day with the bike club and several of the horse barns in the area that ride on the trails, so maybe they could get to know one another, and learn to appreciate each other for their sport but it has never worked out (it is my fault because I have not gotten off of my butt to get it done but I think it will work if it was done).

Hey Tilly:

Not trying to be harsh, but:

(or at least budget a large % of what you do have).

Reread please. That was always there, I didn't edit it in!

And I don't care about fertilizing a trail, I think that great! I just hate riding through it and getting said fertilizer on my bike and on me!

If you're going to ride on shared use trails, you should be considerate enough to pick up your horses' mess and toss it into the woods, or have your horse wear one of those "catch bags" that they use on carriages in the city!

I take my dog on some trails. She learned to "GO" off the trail. If for whatever reason she doesn't. I stop, grab a stick and make sure the trail is "doodie-free". Why is this such a foreign concept for the equestrians?

If it's an equestrian ONLY trail, then let your horse do what it does where ever. That's fine, I don't care.

If shared use, think of others and we'll think of you!

BTW, I love horses, (don't own one) but have friends who do and I enjoy riding occasionally.

Next time I ride a shared use trail, I'll make sure to bring my digital camera and take some pics of the two sections and let you guys be the judge!

L8R (will defend my POV that horses do more damage than bikes till I die)

Also, how much does an average horse weigh? Divide that number by four (# of hooves) and divide by the square inches of a hoof.

Compare that to an average size rider (let's assume 180lbs) divided by two (two tires) that's 90. Divided by the contact patch of a standard tire (about 3 sq. inches) that's 30 lbs/sq in.

What is the calc for a horse?

L8R

My apologies to you a2psyklnut for not reading that a bit more carefully.
However I do own multiple horses, 5 to be exact, and I am not wealthy. Also to say that the people who do have money and know people in the political arena who have money to Lobby there case is a bit of center.
The people who are lucky enough to have large amounts of money and have mulitple horses also have top trainers who compete with these horses. These horses RARELY go out on a trail. They are too expensive to risk injury in a trail related accident.
This particular group of people usually do not lobby for local trail use.

As far as the horses and fertilization goes. Well, some riders do use the bags that carriages have in the city. These bags require special equipment to put on your saddle and also a bit of training. Most horses will kick out or buck with something new like this. For some equestrians this is too much time and money to make this work.

I do agree with you that the equestrian community is more organized than the MTB community. You are required to register your horses and to check them for particular diseases. But just like with everything else there are always going to be people who break the rules and make life difficult for everyone else.

Maybe like aluckyfiji said you and your local MTB group and some barns in the area can get together and have a day to help each other clean the trails.

I cleaned trails many times when I was younger (not with a MTB group, but with my barn) and I really enjoyed it.

Hey Tilly,

Out of curiosity, what does an average "trail" horse weigh? What is the contact area of an average hoof?

According to my assumptions, Weight: 1000-1500 lbs, (lets say 1200) and a hoof size of about 4"x4" (assuming the "toe" is the contact area). 2 x Pie x Diam = 25" is the circumferance. Fiqure the "toe" is less than half of the circumferance. That produces what? An area about 10" long and 1" wide? Is this a correct assumption? I really don't know!

O.k., say 1200/4 = 300 lbs/hoof /10 sq.in. /hoof equals 30 lbs/sq in.

About the same! Hmmmm, interesting.

Would it be safe to assume that while a horse is walking, it's only on 3 hooves at a time that yields 40lbs/sq in. Not a significant difference!

a2, there are many studies that show mountain bikes, horses and hikers have very similar impact on a trail. Maelstrom makes a good point, A well designed trail will make all the difference. I'm sure water will kill a bad trail faster then mtn bikers and horses combined.

I have never had a conflict with trail horses when mtn biking. I always stop and dismount when passing a horse head on. When passing a horse from the rear, always be in vocal contact with the horse, and don't make any unpredictable moves.

I have however had a few conflicts when riding on a multi-use trail. There is a clearly marked horse trail that runs parallel to the bike path, but is rarely gets used! When a horse craps on the bike path, you have to wait weeks for rain to clean it off. This bike path is always covered with crap. I really wish the horses would stay on there part of the trail, or if the riders would come out once a week and clean up the crap on my side of the trail.

Compare the width of the two trails. If we damage a trail, it's usually only a couple feet wide. But horses rip up 10 foot sections at a time, crap everywhere, etc. I don't kick dirt in their faces, and I would think it would just be common courtesy for them not to kick crap in mine.