wubrew, your pix are better than GG's! I love the side-by-side with the Brommie. Could you elaborate on the difference in handling? The ride comparison would be confounded somewhat by the different saddle on the FL, and perhaps by the passage of time.

Your pix show the difference in maintubes quite clearly, esp. the hydroformed shape of the FL maintube.

Has David Black made any progress in adding GG bikes to his lines? www.rad-innovations.com doesn't show any GG bikes.

Concerning the lighting system, I will ask GG to offer it as a kit that a buyer can install. [added to list]

BTW, I will be in Tacoma next month (I will PM you for the Vashon Is. ride)

The ride is similar to the 6ML. The folding as compact. I believe they were aiming at $ 800 for that model.

Thanks .... BTW, I have no interest in setting up a distributorship, but I think I can safely state that I, and the others who are following this thread, are very interested in the configuration listed above, which configuration might end up costing $800 if it has an iM9 hub, Sunzone quill/handlepost, etc., .... but it would be the ultimate folder.

My Merc has a straight handle-bar attached with a bar-adapter. The handle-bar is now about 6cm higher than the lower level of “longhorn” bars. I just checked that the parts that first touch each other when folded are the nut of the front cantilever brake pad and the original handle-bar stem. The folded width did not increase noticeably. It depends on the modification if the width increases.
True maranen but we were discussing telescopic stems which have to be straight and so stick out further when folded than the original stem. You are using the original curved stem with flat bars and a vertical adaptor. That set-up has lost a little forward reach compared to the original, the flat bar grips can't wrap around the fork blade. This is important to me on my Brompton but 'horses for courses'.

I suspect that the interference between brake block bolts and folded stem is part of the reason Brompton sticks with its brake caliper, rather than fitting a V-brake. The old-style brake block bolt allows more room for the stem. I had the same problem when I tried V-brake pads on the original caliper, the stem couldn't fold as close. The Merc has the stem at a slightly different angle that requires a greater folded width. Not a problem for some but enough to make life difficult sometimes.

wubrew, your pix are better than GG's! I love the side-by-side with the Brommie. Could you elaborate on the difference in handling? The ride comparison would be confounded somewhat by the different saddle on the FL, and perhaps by the passage of time.

Your pix show the difference in maintubes quite clearly, esp. the hydroformed shape of the FL maintube.

Has David Black made any progress in adding GG bikes to his lines? www.rad-innovations.com doesn't show any GG bikes.

Concerning the lighting system, I will ask GG to offer it as a kit that a buyer can install. [added to list]

BTW, I will be in Tacoma next month (I will PM you for the Vashon Is. ride)

Ride: Feel stiffer and heavier than 6ML. The weight and the stiffness neagates, IMO, each other. Fl ,this particular model, however comes with 8 speed as opposed to 6 in the 6ML. Same twitchy feel with all small wheel bike.

Shift: Far superior grip shift as opposed to 6ML add on #%^&&* Flip shift on two handle bar. FL shift is responsive up or down shifting. With the Brompton down shifting to mid gear is a " is it going to happen in 2 days?" type of feeling. I just shift all the way down and come back up to the mid gear that I want. But then again 6ML is a 3 additional gear add on after the fact.

Other accoutrement: Roller, lighting, Clip lock, Mud Guards, reflactors are all standard.

The old-style brake block bolt allows more room for the stem. I had the same problem when I tried V-brake pads on the original caliper, the stem couldn't fold as close. The Merc has the stem at a slightly different angle that requires a greater folded width.
Looking at the picture, it seems that the Merc/Flamingo avoids the v-brake arms when folded because the handlebar catch thing is longer than the standard Brompton's. I don't like the look of that catch myself: it looks breakable.

I wouldn't want all these mods even if GG were prepared to do them.

I just want the bike as is - FL BP02-7 in that lovely bright yellow.

I expect that Anita at Merc will get me one when she next orders a container.


I suppose in time I might fit a nice leather Brooks saddle, but on the other hand I might not. The new model has a different saddle to the old one, but it is really the seven speeds and the v brakes that I want. The rest, I have already in daily use.

EvilV, one possible outcome is that GG will refuse to do any mods at all and only offer a volume price on stock bikes. At the other end of the spectrum is some or all mods. Plus, the timeline is fuzzy. When the day comes that we know what GG is willing to do, you may already have pulled the trigger on a stock bike from Anita.

EvilV, one possible outcome is that GG will refuse to do any mods at all and only offer a volume price on stock bikes. At the other end of the spectrum is some or all mods. Plus, the timeline is fuzzy. When the day comes that we know what GG is willing to do, you may already have pulled the trigger on a stock bike from Anita. I had an email a couple of weeks ago from the export agent for GG , Miss Jane Hsu, who told me that owing to delivery times from Shimano, the Nexus speced bikes would take about 75 days from receipt of the order. Solar Wheel (the agent) has a minimum order size of 220 bikes. I'm in no hurry though. We'll see what happens. My bet would be that GG wouldn't want to make large scale changes for a handful of bikes - I'd be amazed if they would, given the costs of tooling and manufacture. If you were ordering a couple of thousand bikes they might mess about with stems etc, for ten or twenty, why would they bother? Even their export agent won't deal with less than 220 standard bikes.

Has David Black made any progress in adding GG bikes to his lines? www.rad-innovations.com doesn't show any GG bikes. [added to list]

As far as I have been told David is an adviser on the product I posted. They have modified a few feature for the bettter. I do not think David will be distributing Flamingo Bikes in the far or near future. He has too many other projects at hand. You can see him at the Interbike this September in Las Vegas. I am trying to go. You should come too.

Looking at the picture, it seems that the Merc/Flamingo avoids the v-brake arms when folded because the handlebar catch thing is longer than the standard Brompton's. I don't like the look of that catch myself: it looks breakable.

There seems to be a nut welded to the vertical post and the catch is screwed to it. It looks longer than Merc’s catch too, to me it looks easily replaceable. I would estimate that the folded size of Flamingo is about 5cm wider than Bromptons. First: The folding pedal (Merc’s pedal is 3.5 cm wider than B’s when folded – I have replaced it). Second: The clearance between the crank arms and the frame make at least 1 cm (I compared Merc and Brompton). Third: Like you say that handlebar catch is long and the bar is in slight angle. This adds up to the folded maximum size significantly wider than Brompton’s. Am I even remotely correct?

I have toyed with an idea to fit rear derailleur gears, with Flamingo’s 130mm OLD it would be possible. I have an unused 28/11 7-speed cassette in 20” wheel. I thought to build it to 16” wheel during long winter nights. I have noticed that there are new rear derailleur gear models with short cages on the market that have been designed for folding-bikes. Does anyone have experience about them – what is the minimum clearance to the ground with a 16” wheel?

maranen, IMO, a 305 or 349 wheel really needs something like a Capreo
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/capreo/index.html
to provide a high end.

Sheldon quips: "If you have 349 mm (16") wheels, you would need to install an 86 tooth chainring to be equivalent to a 52 tooth with common 622 mm wheels!"

As for "min. clearance", I suggest the only certain minimum on paved roads would be lean angle. Lean angle shouldn't be a problem. The real hazard is road debris. Taking a 305 or 349 wheeled bike off-road is asking for demolition of the RD. I lost the OE RD on my DT FS on a riverside trail.... wet root, I'm down, RD was toast courtesy of other roots.

Maunakea
Thanks for the information. I had almost similar experience with my 20” folder as you had – only I could twist back the rear-derailleur.

I have toyed with an idea to fit rear derailleur gears, with Flamingo’s 130mm OLD it would be possible.
Even if you were able to do this effectively with a 349 wheel, you'd have the problem of too much chain slack when you fold the bike.

Probably better in general to go with a front derailleur solution, or use a hub gear that can accommodate multiple sprockets.

How much are they asking for a shipped container of 220 bikes? Roughly?

I'm approaching the GG negotiations with flexibility... and the offer may end up as frame/fork/seatpost from GG and telescopic stems from Sunzone ... a builder's package. At the other end, GG may see the market opportunity for an "MK 349 iM9". GG knows about the performance market segment, they have a 406 bike with drop bars, but don't have a winner in the 406 performance segment and they don't have an entry (does anyone?) in the 349 performance segment.

A builder's package... now that sounds appealing.

is it with or without the 7 speed hub wheel?

14R... built wheels, including the rear w/ gear hub, would be an option. Since GG would be selling parts, not bikes, there could be several different builder's packages. For instance, I have zero interest in GG's quill/handlepost/bars.

got it. I believe it is almost time to start talking about numbers..

Hi
Is it optical illusion what I see when looking at the picture of e.g. the yellow FL-BP02-3? If you magnify the picture and focus on the main tube, it looks to me that the cross-section of the tube is not circular but something like a pear upside down. In yellow bike it can be seen most clearly.

maranen, you are correct, the maintube on the FL is hydroformed..... it is not extruded tube. The unusual shape is a big differentiator WRT copyright issues.

UPDATE: I've had several exchanges with GG... mostly by telephone. Things are progressing, but they weren't impressed with my estimate of 20 bikes. I'm sure they would like 2 x 10cubed. My contact wasn't aware of the Sunzone quill/handlepost. Finally, my Mandarin is getting better.

Hi Maunakea,

I'm jealous of your Mandarin. Mine sucks. I disagree with the derailleur on 349 wheeled bikes issue. There's plenty of clearance with a medium cage XT or a long cage Ultegra. I ride on trails all the time with 355s. I do agree that they are more likely to get clobbered, but my XT has more clearance than my old 406 Downtube did!

Sheldon's calculations are based upon riding on the rim. You do either need a big chainring or a Capreo hub (don't buy the derailleur!). But I'm geared low with 54 on the front, and at 90 RPM I'm at about 26MPH with Stelvios on 355 wheels. (Caveat: my RPM estimates could be way off.) I rekon that my 349s with Scorchers will be slightly larger than my current wheels.

Are there any suspension solutions for the front end of any of these bikes?

...they don't have an entry (does anyone?) in the 349 performance segment.

There are 2 entries: 1) the Moulton (349, 369, and 406 versions), and 2) the Birdy (349, 355, 369, and 406 versions). The Birdy does not have stand, pull, and sprint capabilities, but is otherwise light and fast. However, I would not want to repeat the Moulton speed record ride on a Birdy. It's probably as fast, but a dual suspension folder should not be ridden at 50+ MPH!

Are there any suspension solutions for the front end of any of these bikes?


GG's FL-FD frame has a familiar look, but with 406 wheels.
http://www.flamingobike.com/products/products_show.php?pid=4&cid=3

Your points about off-road on ISO 349s are well taken.... I wouldn't have lost my RD on my DT FS had I not fallen in a wet, rooty turn. However, gear hubs with the shift cable inside the stays do so much better in a crash, regardless of 349 or 406 sizing.

As for the performance 349 class, let's restate it as "multimode performance 349 class". Think of all the tube/subway/bus/rail commuters would wouldn't mind going twice as fast without losing their speedy fold and folded volume.

GG's FL-FD frame has a familiar look, but with 406 wheels.
http://www.flamingobike.com/products/products_show.php?pid=4&cid=3
As for the performance 349 class, let's restate it as "multimode performance 349 class". Think of all the tube/subway/bus/rail commuters would wouldn't mind going twice as fast without losing their speedy fold and folded volume.

Yeah, it shouldn't be so difficult to enhance the performance of the Brompton design. Slight repositioning of the rider, a lighter frame, and stiff front suspension would do the trick. This way, one could run high pressure, fast rolling tires. Is there no one who has made such mods?

The stock Brompton tyres are 100 psi, Stelvios are 120 psi, both roll well. How much more pressure do you want?

...with the derailleur on 349 wheeled bikes issue. There's plenty of clearance with a medium cage XT or a long cage Ultegra. I ride on trails all the time with 355s. I do agree that they are more likely to get clobbered, but my XT has more clearance than my old 406 Downtube did!

Sheldon's calculations are based upon riding on the rim. You do either need a big chainring or a Capreo hub (don't buy the derailleur!). But I'm geared low with 54 on the front, and at 90 RPM I'm at about 26MPH with Stelvios on 355 wheels. (Caveat: my RPM estimates could be way off.) I rekon that my 349s with Scorchers will be slightly larger than my current wheels.


Hi
The reason why I started to pounder fitting rear derailleur to my Merc is that the other option - fitting front derailleur with a small chain ring e.g. 34 - would bring the chain-tensioner quite down closer to the groung level. So with both options there is something that could hit a stone or sticks - derailleur or chain-tensioner. In my opinion Merc/Brompton chain-tensioner should be re-designed - the current fitting to the end of the axle is prone to cause chain-dropping. Happened two days ago to me - then I noticed that the axle nut had got a little loose thus causing the tensioner misalign the chain.

Hi
The reason why I started to pounder fitting rear derailleur to my Merc is that the other option - fitting front derailleur with a small chain ring e.g. 34 - would bring the chain-tensioner quite down closer to the groung level. So with both options there is something that could hit a stone or sticks - derailleur or chain-tensioner. In my opinion Merc/Brompton chain-tensioner should be re-designed - the current fitting to the end of the axle is prone to cause chain-dropping. Happened two days ago to me - then I noticed that the axle nut had got a little loose thus causing the tensioner misalign the chain.

I have made almost exactly that mod to my Merc. The front chainring is 39 teeth, the smallest that can be accomodated by the spider on the right crank. The bottom of the tensioner is four inches from the road when the smaller chain wheel is in use. I just measured it for you. :) I have never come near to having a derailing problem in that gear. My chain derrailments happen on the 52 tooth large wheel. They happen because of a minor chain line issue if I pedal backwards on bumps, but they aren't happening that often so I'm not going to swap the bottom bracket. The chainline issue is caused because I have put the larger wheel on the outside of the crank spider, where the alloy chainguard used to be mounted. My lowest gear is now about 39 inches which allows me to climb anything around here easily enough. This mod has worked very well apart from that tiny allignment issue. The difference in line is quite trivial.

If your axel nut was loose, I don't expect you can really blame the design for the chain derailment. If the tensioner is flopping about, it would be inevitable. All new GG bikes seem to be fitted with the alloy chain tensioner that mine now has (see lowest picture). Anita sent me that one free when I told her the plastic one broke.


http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/8727/dscn1208yy7.jpg


Alloy chain tensioner with chain on 52 tooth wheel ->

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/1787/dscn1210ia3.jpg



Chain on 39 tooth chainwheel leaves four inch ground clearance. Fine for road use and well made tracks, This is no mountain bike so rough off road is not an option for other rather obvious reasons --->

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/2179/dscn1260iw3.jpg

EvilV, has your tail light given up the ghost?
Nice mods ... and your tire wear shows the bike is a favorite.

EvilV, has your tail light given up the ghost?
Nice mods ... and your tire wear shows the bike is a favorite.

Yes I broke the light bracket. Bent it a few too many times when folding it up and being ally, it snapped off. I use a blinkie now. Always did anyway.

The tyre pictures show different tyres. The top two are winter pics when the bike had done about 1500 miles. The bottom picture is the new tyre with about 200 miles on it. These merc tyres seem un puncturable. A couple of weeks ago I picked up a tiny screw which was stuck in the front tyre and click, click, clicking as I rode. I stopped to investigate and found this 1cm screw stuck in the tread point inwards, I just plucked it out and tossed it into the grass. I never had tyres like these. I'm used to mending punctures and changing tubes. Never had to do it yet in 2000 miles plus with these.

.. The bottom of the tensioner is four inches from the road when the smaller chain wheel is in use. I just measured it for you. :) I have never come near to having a derailing problem in that gear.......
If your axel nut was loose, I don't expect you can really blame the design for the chain derailment. ....
Chain on 39 tooth chainwheel leaves four inch ground clearance. Fine for road use and well made tracks, This is no mountain bike so rough off road is not an option for other rather obvious reasons


Hi EvilV
Thanks for the pictures – they are very good help.
About the chain-tensioner – it says in the manual (Brompton) to leave the axle nut, which holds the tensioner in place relatively loose. Quote “This nut should not be done up too tightly: somewhat more than hand tight suffices“. Ok – may be I was too gentle with the tightening.
By the way I have been quite happy with Merc’s brakes – after filing pads and oiling cables. I have no desire for V-brakes. Only thing that would be nice were if the brakes were self-centering. I don’t like the idea that a brake pad would be dragging against the rim.
In search for self-centering caliber brakes I spotted an unused CLB-brake set in a window of a second-hand shop. It was a strange experience – I went in the shop which was crowded with junk. The proprietor seemed to be quite drunk, but he managed to move among the junk and fetched me the brake-set. I’m not familiar with CLB-brakes but they seemed to be self-centering. After a little bargaining I bought the set for 13 €. The proprietor insisted in giving me a pack of nail-files for free – he said they might be handy with bicycles. At the same time there was another customer in the shop – I’m not sure if he was sober. This man had a cap in his hand that he had found in the shop and he wanted to trade it with the cap on his head, which seemed to be in bad condition (the cap I mean). I managed to leave the shop before I was involved in the seemingly unending conversation of cap-trading.
Unfortunately there was only one set, I intend to try it as Merc’s front brake.

Maunakea: Are there any further developments on this, such as a frame group buy?

Hi EvilV
Thanks for the pictures – they are very good help.
About the chain-tensioner – it says in the manual (Brompton) to leave the axle nut, which holds the tensioner in place relatively loose. Quote “This nut should not be done up too tightly: somewhat more than hand tight suffices“. Ok – may be I was too gentle with the tightening.
By the way I have been quite happy with Merc’s brakes – after filing pads and oiling cables. I have no desire for V-brakes. Only thing that would be nice were if the brakes were self-centering. I don’t like the idea that a brake pad would be dragging against the rim.
In search for self-centering caliber brakes I spotted an unused CLB-brake set in a window of a second-hand shop. It was a strange experience – I went in the shop which was crowded with junk. The proprietor seemed to be quite drunk, but he managed to move among the junk and fetched me the brake-set. I’m not familiar with CLB-brakes but they seemed to be self-centering. After a little bargaining I bought the set for 13 €. The proprietor insisted in giving me a pack of nail-files for free – he said they might be handy with bicycles. At the same time there was another customer in the shop – I’m not sure if he was sober. This man had a cap in his hand that he had found in the shop and he wanted to trade it with the cap on his head, which seemed to be in bad condition (the cap I mean). I managed to leave the shop before I was involved in the seemingly unending conversation of cap-trading.
Unfortunately there was only one set, I intend to try it as Merc’s front brake.

LOL - just found this treasure here - this sounds a strange shop; two drunks arguing about cap trading while Maranen tries to conduct regualr business. I enjoyed the description.

Yes - that nut that holds on the chain tensioner is made of 'cheesy' metal. Very soft. Overtighten and it will strip. Mine is in a bad state, but I bought another and will fit it next time I need to remove the old one. It is a Sturmey Archer part I think.

Glad you're happy with the brakes. I just fitted a new set of Koolstop Salmons on the front. They cost me £10! maybe I should have just filed up the old ones. Of course it could be that the makers are responding to customer feedback and have supplied a new compound. They have responded on the chain tensioner issue. The new bikes are supplied from the factory with the metal part now.

Maunakea: Are there any further developments on this, such as a frame group buy?

Jur, I'm travelling, and not posting often. The prospective Flamingo deal has reach a point, a good point, which requires that I go to Taiwan, for which I have tickets. Between now and then I must finish my current trip, catch up, then Japan, then Taiwan... so Taiwan in early November.

Maunakea:

I was curious as to whether this discussion with Grace Gallant has had any progress? Or is the matter closed?

Thanks.

“… factors affecting the efficiency of derailleur gears …. For example, a 12-tooth sprocket seems to cause inefficiency. In the Shimano 27-speed, …. The gears with 12-tooth sprockets (18, 24 and 27) have an average efficiency of 91.2%, while those involving 16-tooth sprockets (11, 20 and 25) have an average efficiency of 93.5%.… Apparently the sharp angle of chain link bend in the 12 causes increased friction compared to larger sprockets. So it appears that larger gears than 12 are necessary for efficient operation.”


This is the very quote that made me think running the 9-26 Capreo cassette maybe isn't that great of an idea. They were only testing down to a 12 tooth sprocket in this report, but having 25% fewer teeth would decrease efficiency another good whack. I guess if you're running in that tall of a gear, then you're probably going downhill or in a peleton, but it has to be a consideration.

Two mainland trips (the work thing) since returning from Taiwan. In Dajia, Taiwan, I had several days of meetings with the good folks at GG. We essentially did a design review directed to avoiding copyright problems. The working design for the full bike uses a telescopic handlepost (maybe Sunzone), a T handlebar, and hydroformed maintube. Things are moving ahead. The normal order size is 200 bikes. I might be able to negotiate a first order of 50 bikes or frame sets. The bikes would target the US market, i.e., no fenders (mud guards) or lighting kit, which items would be options. There's no problem ordering framesets.... it's simpler, in fact (less parts sourcing). I probably won't know more until February.

I may be interested if I can get a flat handlebar and a rear dérailleur instead of the hub gears

cmcanulty, you would probably need to build up a frame set if you want an RD in the near term. The first bikes will be like the Merc, double fold (pivoting RT and a maintube hinge). In a double-fold bike, RDs, chain tension, and a pivoting RT are problematic. There's an alternate design that solves the RD, chain tension, and pivoting RT problem, but we won't have a prototype for several months.

Wow!

This really is going to happen. I thought it was all 'hot air', but I was obviously wrong.

Good luck.

In Dajia, Taiwan, I had several days of meetings with the good folks at GG. We essentially did a design review directed to avoiding copyright problems. The working design for the full bike uses a telescopic handlepost (maybe Sunzone), a T handlebar, and hydroformed maintube. Things are moving ahead. The normal order size is 200 bikes. I might be able to negotiate a first order of 50 bikes or frame sets. The bikes would target the US market, i.e., no fenders (mud guards) or lighting kit, which items would be options. There's no problem ordering framesets.... it's simpler, in fact (less parts sourcing). I probably won't know more until February.


Well done ! .. any pix ? prices or more details ? avoiding copyright is a real plus.

Maunakea:

Any new developments in this endeavour?

I'm still interested!

+1

Newcomer here, but I would be interested also

please excuse if I am jumping in here, just saw the thread

but would like to be included if the deal goes through

Yes what is going on any progress on an order?