Touring Taiwan on a folder

Google sponsored links

Pages : [1] 2

maunakea

Anyone interested in a group buy of Flamingo Brommie Nexus? I will include a visit to Flamingo in my November tour down the west coast (of Taiwan)

The BikeForums Team

-adv-

This is an archived thread, you can find the full version of this thread, with images, links and more content here.

Ready to buy? Check out these two online bike stores:
- http://www.nashbar.com (you can find the latest bike nashbar coupons in this thread)
- http://www.performancebike.com (you can find the latest performance bike coupons in this thread)

Cya on the forums,
- The BikeForums Team
- http://www.bikeforums.net

jur

I am interested, but in Oz... so shipping would be different. I suppose that would probably be OK.

maunakea

Flamingo ships worldwide... one approach is that a given region's order goes to a central point, sort of share the shipping to one buyer's address in NSW, in the States to Tacoma, etc. The shipping is secondary to getting a volume discount.

EvilV

I'm very interested in the FL-BP02-7 in bright yellow. I DON'T like the FL-BP01 type with the pressed frame.

http://www.flamingobike.com/products/products_show.php?pid=56&cid=3

This is the colour I want, but the pictured bike is the Sturmey Archer three speed model which I already have.

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/8373/yellowflamingobikeas2.jpg

Later edit:

This is only an expression of interest obviously. I need to know an exact price and delivery date and I need to know if it will be subject to import duty before a firm commitment can be made.

14R

I'm in.

jur

Yellow +1

juggleandhope

What do the prices look like, before and after discount? Would the $150 shipping fee likely still apply?

migjet

How about freight at $150 for 5 bikes and $475 each for an order of 10?:D

jasong

Anyone inquired on the Brompton looking bikes of theirs and gotten a full delivered price quote to the US?

JugglerDave

Perhaps I missed previous threads, but are these Flamingos available via any normal channels in the US? e.g. has someone on ebay imported a container of them?

I'm happy right now with my DT, but a coworker wants the Brommie but not the price.

EvilV

I cycled over to my nearest Brompton dealer today - a round trip of 25 miles on my Merc. I needed a few odds and ends and I spoke to him about the Shimano Nexus. He was highly critical of the hub saying that the changing mechanism was fragile rubbish and that the supply of spares was terrible. He had a new birdy in there with a shimano 7 which a customer had broken in a few weeks. It was the fragile bit mentioned above. He said the guy had been waiting six weeks for the changing mechanism to be supplied. I think that was what was wrong with Cyclist John's new bike when it wouldn't change gear. Anybody else got experience of the Shimano hub some of us were proposing to go for on the Flamingo? Total reliability is non-negotiable for me, and the SA SRF-3 hub though limited in range is completely solid in taht department.

maunakea

If we're doing this, it's worth doing right.
GG does custom tooling, so they can certainly source parts. I propose that I, on behalf of the group buy, ask GG to quote on 10 or more (I think we will be able to get 10 orders) bikes integrated to our spec. To me, this means:

[List is work in progress]

BASE MODEL
130 mm OLD rear triangle with S-stays to gain needed OLD (and reduced copyright issues)
Shimano Red Band 8-speed hub (assumes the SRAM iM9 is not available)
best Taiwan ISO 349 rims
V-brakes
Teflon impregnated cable
best Taiwan cable housing
best Taiwan gruppo other than what the gear hub requires
adjustable, full alloy, quill/handlepost (Sunzone)
best, aluminum, Taiwanese folding pedals
upgraded BB and front hub
upgraded crankset if possible
longest alloy seatpost... at least 500 mm (suspension seatpost would compromise folded size)
upgraded spokes/wheelbuild

OPTIONS
lighting system (rear wheel friction generator, cables, and F/R lights)

I have emailed GG about the possible order. I will be in Taichung (nearest big city to GG) the first week of Nov. They have plenty of time. So... me hearties, continue the spec (Let's assume cheapo saddle or even no saddle, each buyer would mount his own)

Note that http://www.mercbike.co.uk/ proclaims the advent of an 8-speed hub "upgrade".

spambait11

He was highly critical of the hub saying that the changing mechanism was fragile rubbish and that the supply of spares was terrible. He had a new birdy in there with a shimano 7 which a customer had broken in a few weeks. It was the fragile bit mentioned above.
I've read people were not as pleased with the Nexus-7's shifting, but I don't recall reading that this hub was unreliable to the extent that you've described above. Interesting.

As far as MK's "Ultimate Folding Bike," I'd double check that they can get a Nexus 8 hub to fit the Brompton's narrow rear triangle. Also I think Dahon was having reliability issues with the Nexus 8 when they tried it in the Curve, but I'm not sure what their problems were.

jur

+1 on Nexus 8.

maunakea

Added to the list: 130mm OLD, and if the iM9 is even remotely possible, I suggest waiting for it.

BruceMetras

+1 on extensive use if Ti and C/F ... Maybe embossed 'MK LE' in a discreet nook..

Bruce

14R

Same specs as your Maunakea, if no seats make it cheaper, no seats for me.

What I am really interested is V-brakes rear frame and fork, 8spd or iM9 if possible. The rest is change...

maunakea

... Maybe embossed 'MK LE' in a discreet nook..

Oh yes... more than a discreet nook, a Ti head badge .... what other Ti parts could we work in ... the frame and RT come to mind ... but don't want to overwhelm GG... GG will probably choke on an 130 OLD RT, but a cogent explanation coupled with lots of NTD (New Taiwanese Dollars) might change their mind. Goal: get around the B design weaknesses and copyright issues with a new look RT, brakes, handlepost, etc.

invisiblehand

If we're doing this, it's worth doing right.
GG does custom tooling, so they can certainly source parts. I propose that I, on behalf of the group buy, ask GG to quote on 10 or more (I think we will be able to get 10 orders) bikes integrated to our spec. To me, this means:

130 mm OLD rear triangle with S-stays to gain needed OLD (and reduced copyright issues)
Shimano Red Band 8-speed hub (assumes the SRAM iM9 is not available)
best Taiwan ISO 349 rims
Teflon impregnated cable
best Taiwan cable housing
best Taiwan gruppo other than what the RB covers
adjustable, full alloy, quill/handlepost (Sunzone)
best, aluminum, Taiwanese folding pedals
upgraded BB and front hub
upgraded crankset if possible
longest alloy seatpost... at least 500 mm (suspension seatpost would compromise folded size)
etc.

I have emailed GG about the possible order. I will be in Taichung (nearest big city to GG) the first week of Nov. They have plenty of time. So... me hearties, continue the spec (Let's assume cheapo saddle or even no saddle, each buyer would mount his own)

I thought that the Nexus 8 Redband needed a 135mm OLD ... where is WAVSHRDER when you need him?

How good are the Taiwanese gruppo compared to 105 components?

invisiblehand

Hmmm, this says 132 ...

http://sheldonbrown.com/nexus8/pages/28.htm

but another page writes that it fits 130 ...

http://harriscyclery.net/itemdetails.cfm?ID=1949

So it looks like 130 will be fine.

BruceMetras

Oh yes... more than a discreet nook, a Ti head badge .... what other Ti parts could we work in ... the frame and RT come to mind ... but don't want to overwhelm GG... GG will probably choke on an 130 OLD RT, but a cogent explanation coupled with lots of NTD (New Taiwanese Dollars) might change their mind. Goal: get around the B design weaknesses and copyright issues with a new look RT, brakes, handlepost, etc.

Dare to go where others fear tread...

maunakea

why clone when one can improve ... set the Wayback Machine, Sherman, back to the birth of the Brommie.

jur

Let's just send them that stunning bike's pics (14R started that thread, I forget the designer's name) and let them get on with it.

maranen

Hi

Very interesting. My impressions:
1. Looks like the frame and handle-post are secured by Brompton style levers – now it really looks like Brompton.
2. V-brakes may be a bit heavier than cantilever brakes – Merc’s aluminium brakes are very light. But the difference is probably negligible and V-brakes are definitively improvement – self-centering as advertised.
3. In the pictures e.g. seat-post of FL-BP02-3 looks like there is machined rough surface about 5cm down-words from the top. I think this can eliminate seat-post dropping – more friction. Hydraulically pressed version seems to have the old smooth seat-post!?
4. Why do they make the hydraulically pressed frame version? Just in case they’ll lose in court against Brompton? That version looks less attractive than the original.
5. The folding pedal in the picture looks like it might take just a little less space when folded than Merc’s pedal.
6. The seat looks good to me.
7. Is it available in black? Black would draw less attention when locked by the street side.
8. Is there available a straight handle-bar version?
9. Are the spokes of Merc or Brompton thickness?
10. 7- or 8-speed hub-gear must be neat to use but is it as reliable and efficient as 3-speed? Not according to the article “The mechanical efficiency of bicycle derailleur and hub-gear transmissions / Chester Kyle and Frank Berto” to which Jur/EvilV provided a link. But would you notice a difference of about 10% in efficiency – would it feel like riding a bike with rusty chain if you could compare? With 13cm wide rear triangle you can fit a rear derailleur gears, but is it a good choice: With 16 inch wheels you’ll have to be very careful off-road and after folding/unfolding you’ll probably have to do readjusting. I would choose an oiled 3-speed hub gear combined with 2- or 3-speed front derailleur.
I want to quote some lines from the article – I made the underlining. Hope you don’t mind me bringing up this topic. The effect of chain-tensioner remains unknown:

“The grease in the Sachs 3 and the Sturmey Archer 3-speeds was replaced with light oil, and unlike the other hub gear transmissions, the efficiencies of the Sachs 3 and Sturmey 3, compare well with the best of the derailleur transmissions (figs. 7, 9, and 12). Also, these transmissions were worn in, whereas many of the others were new. Manufacturers would do well to replace heavy grease in their hub gears with light oil.”

“In hub gears, such as the Rohloff 14, the efficiency no doubt depends on how many elements of the gear train are in motion as each gear is selected … Rohloff… uses light oil as a lubricant.”

“… factors affecting the efficiency of derailleur gears …. For example, a 12-tooth sprocket seems to cause inefficiency. In the Shimano 27-speed, …. The gears with 12-tooth sprockets (18, 24 and 27) have an average efficiency of 91.2%, while those involving 16-tooth sprockets (11, 20 and 25) have an average efficiency of 93.5%.… Apparently the sharp angle of chain link bend in the 12 causes increased friction compared to larger sprockets. So it appears that larger gears than 12 are necessary for efficient operation.”

To me the V-brakes and roughened seat-post are the most important improvements. Still remains at least the handle-post replacement with a straight one. What about weight? If you want to make it lighter you’ll have to turn to Brompton ti-parts.

EvilV

The FL02-3 IS the Merc. It's the same bike, only with the roughened seat post and the Vbrakes. I think it is the same crappy pedal too. The photograph just seems to show it folded down.

If you are in a position to set your own specifications MAKE SURE YOU SPECIFY 13 GAUGE SPOKES in the rear wheel. The 14 gauge ones break. GG are using an ealy set of Brompton specs passed on to the company when the Far east license for building Bromptons in Taiwan collapsed and neobike went under. The early bromptons also had 14 gauge spokes which broke all the time. I have now broken seven. I'm thinking of having the rear wheel re-built with the heavier spokes. When I replace them I always use heavier ones. They are a hell of a lot thicker.

maranen

maunakea

added to the list: 13 ga. SS spokes

I am very curious to learn from GG the difference between "ancient type alum. alloy tube" and "alum. alloy made by hydraulic pressure", and what F/ and R/ mean in the "Frame" spec .... probably forward of the maintube hinge and rearward of the maintube hinge.

maunakea

Perhaps I missed previous threads, but are these Flamingos available via any normal channels in the US?

GG has a UK distributor, but not a N. Am. one. CMIIW, I think the Mercs in the States have been imported from the UK.

jur

maunakea

OK... changed it to "upgraded spokes/wheelbuild" Curious.... broken spokes are rare on the DT Mini... better wheelbuild?

Now to build the IP case. Please contribute. Let's assume we go with the FL frame without "ancient aluminum", i.e., the FL-BP01-x frame.

Part One: What are the most striking "visual" differences between the FL and the C/M/S/P?
1) arch of maintube is noticeably angular in the C/M/S/P; the FL is is smooth arc
2) C/M/S/P all come with the very distinctive "all nose" saddle (granted it can be adjusted, but the standard pix show it "all nose"
3) V brakes on FL vs calipers on C/M/S/P
4) FL has integral, hydraulically extruded headtube/front maintube (I think); C/M/S/P has welded pieces of tubing
5) handlepost hinge is flat on FL and rounded on C/M/S/P; if we can get the Sunzone handlepost/quill, the difference will be even more dramatic, e.g., telescopic.
Added 6) telescopic handlepost allows flatbars, or design other than "longhorn"

Part Two: Technical Differences
1) FL has 3-speed or 7-speed gear hub; C/M/S/P have SS, 2 cog RD, 3-speed gear hub, and 3spGH with a 2 cog RD on some
2) V brakes on FL vs calipers on C/M/S/P
3) FL has integral, hydraulically extruded headtube/front maintube (I think); C/M/S/P has welded pieces of tubing

EvilV

Re 13# spokes:

Sheldon Brown writes that thicker spokes ain't necessarily better. You WANT spokes to be able to flex, so let's go for 14G-15G butted spokes. Lighter but more robust, since the thinner section does the slight stretching under load, leaving the thicker section near the elbow with less stress.

Broken spokes is far more likely to be a crappy built wheel rather than the spokes' fault, unless they were crappy spokes.
Well - I can't argue with you on engineering principles. All I can say is that Brompton went for 13 gauge spokes from 14 gauge about 17 years ago because of problems with broken spokes on early bikes. This move made further failures less common. My bike has 14 gauge and I've had to replace 7. I can do it in twenty minutes now without any rush. I just peel back the tyre and tape and replace the broken one with the wheel on the bike. Maybe if I don't bother with having a rebuild done, I'll get that down to ten minutes before I've replaced the lot with the thicker ones.

:)

The issue is as I understand it, the sixteen inch wheel with a nice fat three speed hub makes a steep angle at the nipple and at the elbow with quite a bit of sideways pull. Bigger wheels have a lot less apparently. I think I had some variable tension in the wheel at the outset and this allowed flexing which fatigued some of them. I don't know if they are crappy spokes, but the fact that Brompton had the same problems suggests it is a design thing. It is only the back wheel that is affected - the front is original and entirely true. I think it is about power transmission and hammering uphills. I broke two while accelerating hard from rest - heard them 'ping'.

EvilV

Part Two: Technical Differences
1) FL has 3-speed or 7-speed gear hub; C/M/S/P have SS, 2 cog RD, 3-speed gear hub, and 3spGH with a 2 cog RD on some
2) V brakes on FL vs calipers on C/M/S/P
3) FL has integral, hydraulically extruded headtube/front maintube (I think); C/M/S/P has welded pieces of tubing
Brompton frame is brazed steel, FL is alloy tube. I'd rather have the steel if the price was right. Steel has a better stress life and a more gentle failure mode. I'm not suggesting that you ask GG about steel frames - I doubt they are geared up for that kind of thing. Brazing is pretty specialised. I'm just pointing out the difference.

One thing that might be explored is the handlebar strength. The M type Brompton handlebars in the original 1980s design were prone to snap suddenly after hard use. This caused some very nasty events as you can imagine. Brompton brought out a strengthening cross peice kit to get around this with the bikes they'd sold and also changed the specs of the tubing for future production. Since GG are using OLD Brompton designs, they may have the original weak handlebar spec, like they do the weak rear spokes. This may need watching for those of us who have them. It would be no fun at all to be riding in heavy traffic and find oneself with a chunk of free floating handlebar in one hand. :eek:

The shape of the FL bars IS the same as the old Brompton ones, so I expect the tubing is the same too. See Brompton safety notice below -

http://www.bromptonbicycle.co.uk/index.cfm?fuseaction=ownerinfo.safetynotices2

maunakea

EvilV, good points ... but on the maintube, "R/hi-ten steel" I think means the maintube aft of the maintube hinge is steel, which I agree, if steel, shouldn't be changed.

I would like the telescopic handlepost to put the handlebar clamp at standard level... no "longhorn bull" effect. The "longhorn" look is very distinctive, and best avoided from a copyright perspective.

EvilV

Yes the rear triangle. handlebar post and front forks on GG bikes are of course steel. The main tube is CERTAINLY NOT (knew it but just checked with magnet). My point is that the Brompton main frame is steel throughout. I'm sure GG would not want to do that they are obviously set up for alloy frames which are probably much cheaper to make. 'R/high ten steel' means the rear triangle. The 'English' on that site is tricky to say the least - incomprehensible in parts.

I think the Brompton handlebar safety notice referenced above needs to be taken into account by the likes of you and I that have Mercs. I'm sure the bars are old design flawed ones. I don't want to be the first Merc rider to break one and end up bouncing down the road on my face followed by a ten ton truck. I'm going to try and buy the B handlebar brace for pre 2000 bikes. I'm sure the dealer will sell me one if I ask.

maunakea

The F/ vs. R/ "frame" spec for the FL bikes divides F from R at the RT/seattube hinge, then, not at the maintube hinge as I previously thought.

maranen

When I got my Merc I decided to replace the original handle-bar with a straight one. I had an idea to make bar-ends from the original handle-bar by cutting it to suitable lengths. First I cut it in half with a tube-cutter. It surprised me that the tube was significantly weaker in the middle – only few turns with the cutter -, where the tube’s outer diameter is a little bigger than elsewhere. I think this is because in the process of “drawing” the tube the same amount of material is used for thicker and thinner areas. I measured the wall thickness in the middle and elsewhere and the difference was about 0.5 mm. I was happy to have taste that prevented me from using the weak handle-bar.

Are you sure that Brompton’s frame is steel, not Cro/Mo?

psykoocycle

I'd be interested, but it will depend on price at the end... always wanted a brommie, even settle for a Merc!

LWaB

I think this is because in the process of “drawing” the tube the same amount of material is used for thicker and thinner areas.

The handlebars are bulge-formed (think blowing up a balloon), not drawn.

LWaB

I would like the telescopic handlepost to put the handlebar clamp at standard level... no "longhorn bull" effect. The "longhorn" very distinctive, and best avoided from a copyright perspective.

The 'longhorn' bars allow the grips to spread around the front fork and axle. Changing to flat, height-adjustable bars will increase the folded width noticeably.

maunakea

Changing to flat, height-adjustable bars will increase the folded width noticeably.
or, since the handlepost will be telescopic, permit a different disposition of the handlebars in folded position.

LWaB

or, since the handlepost will be telescopic, permit a different disposition of the handlebars in folded position.
Thus slowing the fold/unfold with an additional action, with the bonus of additional weight and cost and the need to straighten the handlebars when unfolding (depending on keyways). A telescopic stem has to be straight, not curved gently forward like the Brompton, so the fold is wider anyway.

Every 'improvement' comes at a cost, usually both physical and financial, sometimes temporal. Be careful about incorporating too many improvements. You'll end up chipping away at the only advantages of the Brompton - small folded size, reasonable weight, quick fold, reliability.

maunakea

LWaB, good points. The difference in handlebars provides significant copyright differentiation for the standard version, however. Longhorn bars, or even a P-like bar, and a short handlepost could be options.

maranen

The 'longhorn' bars allow the grips to spread around the front fork and axle. Changing to flat, height-adjustable bars will increase the folded width noticeably.

Hi
My Merc has a straight handle-bar attached with a bar-adapter. The handle-bar is now about 6cm higher than the lower level of “longhorn” bars. I just checked that the parts that first touch each other when folded are the nut of the front cantilever brake pad and the original handle-bar stem. The folded width did not increase noticeably. It depends on the modification if the width increases.

wubrew

maunakea, I will be trasitting Taiwan in December. Thinking about getting a swivel head or a Merc/Flamingo.
For those who like to see the Flamingo pics here they are

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m225/r1shot/Picture5.png

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m225/r1shot/Picture4.png

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m225/r1shot/DSCN1234.jpg

The special clip that prevent the rear wheel from folding when the bike is lifted up.

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m225/r1shot/DSCN1230.jpg

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m225/r1shot/DSCN1226.jpg

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m225/r1shot/DSCN1233.jpg

Cheers

14R

For the record, if we really have the ability to custom order each and every bike, I really don't want any of the wiring, lights or dynamo stuff.

migjet

Great pics, wubrew! These make it even more interesting to get one! Are these your own bikes?

wubrew

Great pics, wubrew! These make it even more interesting to get one! Are these your own bikes?

The Brompton is mine. The yellow Flamingo is a sample that David Black at Rad-Innovation has for eval. and possible marketing. That was last year right after the Interbike. I tried it. It's a pretty well built bike with all the characteristics of a similar Brompton. Rather flashy. Long term durabilty, quality? Can't tell.

bookishboy

I'm definitely interested, but any idea how much this would cost total?

maunakea

wubrew, your pix are better than GG's! I love the side-by-side with the Brommie. Could you elaborate on the difference in handling? The ride comparison would be confounded somewhat by the different saddle on the FL, and perhaps by the passage of time.

Your pix show the difference in maintubes quite clearly, esp. the hydroformed shape of the FL maintube.

Has David Black made any progress in adding GG bikes to his lines? www.rad-innovations.com doesn't show any GG bikes.

Concerning the lighting system, I will ask GG to offer it as a kit that a buyer can install. [added to list]

wubrew

For the record, if we really have the ability to custom order each and every bike, I really don't want any of the wiring, lights or dynamo stuff.

I agree. Those FOO-FOO stuff got to go. I believe it all come standard, though. Notice the main frame is more angular and massive. That= more weight?

Previous - Top - Next