Let's say there's a bike lane on the right, that goes all the way to the light. I'm approaching the intersection, and there are 3 cars in front of me, waiting to make a right turn. I stop behind the 3rd car, and wait my turn, since I'm going straight.

Then another cyclist comes up behind me, and is pissed off, because I'm taking up the bike lane. He wants to go all the way to the front, and stop right by the first car waiting to go right.

My thinking about stopping is a) it's the polite thing to do, since they were at the intersection before me; and b) it's the safe thing to do, since when they got to the intersection, I was not there, and therefore not in their "consciousness."

Am I doing the right thing?

In this situation I would move out of the BL and get in line in the right most straight ahead lane. I would do this before I got to the intersection and get back in the BL on the other side of the intersection, if it continued.

However, if there were a long line of cars (more than one light cycle) waiting, I might use the BL to my advantage and proceed to the front of the line, if I knew the BL continued on the other side.

A couple of ways this can be done with cars turning right:
1) Do what you're doing and don't worry about the other cyclist, they'll just have to wait.
2) Move all the way to the front of the line far enough forward for the first car to see you, then signal that you intend to go straight.
3) If you can't get past the first car without being in the intersection, get far enough foreward for the second car to see you, signal your intention to them, and let the first car go ahead of you when the light changes.

Communication is very important when doing this. If the light changes and traffic starts to move before you've signalled your intent, the safest thing to do is wait until all the right turners have cleared the intersection before proceeding.

You might also want to complain to your local pertinent authorities about the unsafely designed BL at the corner of Elm and Tree that puts through cyclists to the right of right turning traffic.

So you are stopping "behind the 3rd car", but still in the bike lane, so you are really behind and to the right of the 3rd car? What is preventing another car from coming up and stopping beside you on your left, in his lane? What if he's also turning right?

Number 1, this is why design standards don't advocate bike lanes continuing right up to an intersection on the right, because it encourages right-turning motorists and through cyclists to position themselves in conflict with each other. But since it's there, and you're there, I would say that if you are going straight and don't want to filter, as the other cyclist did, then I would get out of the bike lane and stop truly behind the car in front of you. As to whether you are in the exact center, or the left or right portion of the lane, there are different schools of thought, which I don't need to go into here unless you want. But in any case, I'd leave the bike lane if I wanted to wait in line. Which I personally think is wiser. The biggest problem is that you may find motorists wondering why you're not in the bike lane and getting annoyed about it. Which is another downside to bike lanes.

There should never be a bike lane to the right of a right-turn only lane. I always try to position myself laterally in a destination-appropriate fashion, which means to the left of the right-turners.

I didn't get the impression it was a RTOL, only that the 3 cars in front happened to be waiting to turn right. I assumed that it also carried through traffic.

Since it's California, that bike lane should have a broken stripe about the last 200 feet before the intersection.
I agree with the Commuter Run. Get out of the bike lane behind the last of the three right turners. With a long line of cars, I'll ride the bike lane up to the front if no turn signals are on, and go from there. Keep in mind that I can beat the first car in line across the intersection if I want, so if the second car is turning, I pull up to the front. Our lanes are wide here so there's no issue with anyone having to pass me again. You could always find the last right turner, pull up to the right of them, get their attention and signal them to do their turn in front of you, following them up to the intersection, then through.

ride to the left of the right turners while filtering to the front of the line.

safety first. be prepared for one or all of the drivers to change their minds and vector.

Thanks for all your suggestions. In North County San Diego, where this is, the newer roads have properly designed bike lanes. But many sections of Hwy 1 still have bike lanes that continue right up to the intersection. Solana Beach is especially bad, and there the highway is brand new. On top of that, they have very short lights, so drivers are always pissed off. I'm very reluctant to get into the regular traffic lane, especially with a recumbent, because I take a little bit longer to get started. The good thing is that there are so many cyclists here that drivers are pretty used to them.

Let's say there's a bike lane on the right, that goes all the way to the light. I'm approaching the intersection, and there are 3 cars in front of me, waiting to make a right turn. I stop behind the 3rd car, and wait my turn, since I'm going straight.

Then another cyclist comes up behind me, and is pissed off, because I'm taking up the bike lane. He wants to go all the way to the front, and stop right by the first car waiting to go right.

My thinking about stopping is a) it's the polite thing to do, since they were at the intersection before me; and b) it's the safe thing to do, since when they got to the intersection, I was not there, and therefore not in their "consciousness."

Am I doing the right thing?
It all depends.

Where I live, there is a particular sign that says, "Right Turn Yield to Cyclists" at the intersection where the bike lane reaches the light. So in this case I am expected to go all the way to the front and go first at the light.

If the light is green, it's trickier, because merging with the traffic flow comes into play.

In either case, even though the law clearly gives me the right of way in the bike lane, my responsibility to myself tells me to exercise caution.

ride to the left of the right turners while filtering to the front of the line.

safety first. be prepared for one or all of the drivers to change their minds and vector.

ditto.

It is unsafe for a bike to sit at the back of a line of stopped cars. Cars coming up behind you likely won't see you against the stopped cars. You are likely to be rear-ended.
Cars pass us in our lane when they can, we should pass them in our lane when we can as well. So, I'd either lane split up to the front, or move out of the BL and into the straight through lane.

edit: I would not have been in the bike lane in the first place.

It is unsafe for a bike to sit at the back of a line of stopped cars. Cars coming up behind you likely won't see you against the stopped cars. You are likely to be rear-ended.


I have argued this point a few times here on BF... citing that the highest percent of automotive accidents that occur, are rear end accidents... yet vehicular cycling proponents continue to cite the lack of rear end accidents (based on one study in the '70s).

Sure seems like a contradition to me. If we cyclists are taking positions behind autos that may be right or left turning... we are subject to the same collisions that motorists now encounter... rear end collisions.

Therefore I tend to agree that positioning oneself behind a stopped motorcar is not an ideal place.

I have argued this point a few times here on BF... citing that the highest percent of automotive accidents that occur, are rear end accidents... yet vehicular cycling proponents continue to cite the lack of rear end accidents (based on one study in the '70s).

Sure seems like a contradition to me. If we cyclists are taking positions behind autos that may be right or left turning... we are subject to the same collisions that motorists now encounter... rear end collisions.

Therefore I tend to agree that positioning oneself behind a stopped motorcar is not an ideal place.

The counter argument is that a cyclist in the lane is almost always going to be perceived as going slowly and thus grabs the attention of motorists approaching from behind, unlike a car in the lane would (where the expectation is that the car is moving at "normal" speed). Cyclists also move more slowly and brake at less of a rate than motorists can which also decreases the chance that they would be in a situation where they might get rear ended.

The counter argument is that a cyclist in the lane is almost always going to be perceived as going slowly and thus grabs the attention of motorists approaching from behind, unlike a car in the lane would (where the expectation is that the car is moving at "normal" speed). Cyclists also move more slowly and brake at less of a rate than motorists can which also decreases the chance that they would be in a situation where they might get rear ended.

The counter argument can also be that most cyclists are curb hugging or riding in bike lanes (which by simple observation, tends to be the case) and therefore are not "in the lane" behind cars stopped at lights and signs.

If however the trend to move more left is ever followed... I think we will see more rear end collisions. Cars have lights on the back to indicate they are slowing/stopped (as long a brake pedal is down)... and if motorists are missing that bit of information now (due to distractions most likely) they are not likely to observe cyclists stopped in the lane either.

It is unsafe for a bike to sit at the back of a line of stopped cars. Cars coming up behind you likely won't see you against the stopped cars. You are likely to be rear-ended.
I've never been rear-ended doing this, and I do it all the time. Done it for many years.

Thanks for all your suggestions. In North County San Diego, where this is, ...

Welcome, Chaco. I stupidly didn't realize that you are a fellow Encinitan. :o I have a shop stand and a good supply of parts and tools, so PM me if you need anything or just want to get together or ride. (I tried the weekly Encinitas YMCA MasterFit group ride yesterday (Saturday) from 7 to 9 a.m. -- great bunch of guys and gals.)

Since you are on your 'bent, if using clipless, don't clip in with the foot you have down until you're across the intersection. That should speed you up a bit.
On my Trek, I'm sitting looking over the top of most regular cars today, so I might be seen while stopped behind one. On my "bent, they have to recognize that I'm behind the car, since my head is a little lower than most passengers in cars. I stop a bit to the side, leaving room for someone to miss me.

I've never been rear-ended doing this, and I do it all the time. Done it for many years.

Yeah... you, me and HH. OK that's three of us.

Now really take a look at where most other cyclists are. Probably filtering forward along the right side so they can run the light.

+1 on stopping to the side. Whenever I'm stopped behind a car I try to position myself to one side and give myself an escape path in case somebody approaching from the rear decides not to stop. I also monitor my mirror or look behind me until at least 2-3 cars have stopped behind me, and even then I'll keep my ears open and keep checking the mirror.

I witnessed a rear end collision where the driver of a large pickup didn't see about 20 cars stopped at a red light. The pickup plowed into a mid-size car, causing significant damage to both vehicles. That car was pushed into a 3rd car, causing moderate damage to both vehicles. That car moved towards the car in front of it but I don't think they touched. Luckily there were no bicyclists between all those crunched bumpers. Frequently when I'm stopped behind a car at a red light that scenario will go through my head.

I witnessed a rear end collision where the driver of a large pickup didn't see about 20 cars stopped at a red light. The pickup plowed into a mid-size car, causing significant damage to both vehicles. That car was pushed into a 3rd car, causing moderate damage to both vehicles. That car moved towards the car in front of it but I don't think they touched. Luckily there were no bicyclists between all those crunched bumpers. Frequently when I'm stopped behind a car at a red light that scenario will go through my head.

I have been rear ended while driving and stopped at a light... and you described just about what it was like. I was in the last car... the one hit first with the most energy by a woman that just didn't see us. It totaled my car. (oddly enough, it was the first car I bought after being car free for about 7 years)

Yeah, I too keep that situation in my head... which is why I continue to question "moving left" at stops and putting cyclists right there in harm's way.

I fully agree with moving out of the way to let right turners on through... but to stop behind a car... uh, no, I don't like doing that. (besides, that whiff of exhaust... we just don't need.)

What I tend to do is filter forward at stops, and put myself just to the right of the first car, while leaving room for other cars to come through on a right turn. At left turns, I tend to keep to the right of the last car... unless I arrive first. Then I still stay to the right, but up front.

I know its all about being seen... but if a motorist can't see a line of 20 cars (or 5 in my case) how the heck are they going to see one skinny cyclist?

I think one of the problems here may be that the motorists turning right aren't merging properly into the bike lane. When I was in drivers training I was told that California law requires that right turners merge right into the bike lane (with a signal, shoulder check, etc.) before entering the intersection to make the right turn. As a general rule while planning on making a right on red with a non-RTOL (while driving a car) I will merge with the bike lane where the dashed line starts, and move my vehicle close enough to the curb to prevent a cyclist (or any other vehicle) from passing me on the right. If the cyclist is going straight, they can leave the bike lane to pass me on the left. If they're also turning right, they can wait their turn behind me. I see many motorists that make right turns across bike lanes without ever merging into the bike lane (or signaling for that matter, but that's another problem...).

JeffB502 - yes, that's exactly the problem. It's not all the drivers' fault, though. In Solana Beach, the bike lanes go right up to the intersection. In Cardiff, the next town north, the bike lane stops short of the intersection and picks up again to the left of the right hand turn lane for cars, which is where it ought to be. No wonder drivers get confused -- there's no standardization at all.

One thing I won't do is get in the middle of the car lane and stop there. The only time I do that is when I'm doing a left hand turn at a light. Getting in the car lane at a stop, when there's an empty bike lane right next to me, seems a sure invitation to road rage.

Getting in the car lane at a stop, when there's an empty bike lane right next to me, seems a sure invitation to road rage.

Do you feel pressured to use the bike lane even though you know it's not the best place to be going through an intersection?

I'll get in the car lane without hesitation if I'm going very fast and there's debris in the bike lane, or if I'm turning left at a light. As for the "best" place to be when going through an intersection, from this discussion alone, I can see that's largely a matter of context, opinion, and personal judgement.