RoboCheme
07-08-07, 04:45 PM
Since Kloedon has a 17 second lead on Vinokourov, does Vino have to refrain from attacking his "teammate"? Do you think that he can keep himself in check?
View Full Version : Does Vinokourov have to support Kloedon now?
Namenda
07-08-07, 04:58 PM
It may be a bit early for Astana to throw their strategy out the window. And when has Vino refrained from attacking anyone, anyway?
ElJamoquio
07-08-07, 04:58 PM
Person on team in GC lead != team leader.
Ryanf
07-08-07, 04:59 PM
Vinokourov is not going to be the strongest man and kloden will win. Check my sig.
Bullseye
07-08-07, 05:08 PM
Vinokourov is not going to be the strongest man and kloden will win. Check my sig.
Your sig had all the answers. I am enlightened. Thank you.
-Bullseye
Your sig had all the answers. I am enlightened. Thank you.
-Bullseye
Ryanf
07-08-07, 05:22 PM
Kloden learned all he knows from Jan Ullrich.
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t28/ryanf_1997/cafjan11.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t28/ryanf_1997/cafjan11.jpg
a_fire_inside
07-08-07, 05:26 PM
Kloden learned all he knows from Jan Ullrich.
I am learning all I know from you.
I am learning all I know from you.
skydive69
07-08-07, 05:26 PM
Person on team in GC lead != team leader.
er, BS!
er, BS!
dknight07
07-08-07, 05:27 PM
That explains where Kloden learned to be one of the most boring cyclists I've ever watched... he learned from the master. Im just glad I dont have to watch Jan's overweight self huff and puff up a mountain anymore.
Ryanf
07-08-07, 05:29 PM
That explains where Kloden learned to be one of the most boring cyclists I've ever watched... he learned from the master. Im just glad I dont have to watch Jan's overweight self huff and puff up a mountain anymore.
Watching Jan Ullrich is exciting.
Watching Jan Ullrich is exciting.
ElJamoquio
07-08-07, 06:18 PM
er, BS!
<ahem> Incorrect. </ahem>
<ahem> Incorrect. </ahem>
skydive69
07-08-07, 06:28 PM
<ahem> Incorrect. </ahem>
Tell me about it when Vino is wearing yellow in Paris. I actually got some fool to take my $50 bet - he stupidly took Schleck! I'll remind you of this thread to see who is the leader in about three weeks.
Tell me about it when Vino is wearing yellow in Paris. I actually got some fool to take my $50 bet - he stupidly took Schleck! I'll remind you of this thread to see who is the leader in about three weeks.
ElJamoquio
07-08-07, 06:37 PM
Tell me about it when Vino is wearing yellow in Paris. I actually got some fool to take my $50 bet - he stupidly took Schleck! I'll remind you of this thread to see who is the leader in about three weeks.
No thanks.
http://www.cs.rice.edu/~cork/teachjava/notes/current/node101.html
No thanks.
http://www.cs.rice.edu/~cork/teachjava/notes/current/node101.html
skydive69
07-08-07, 06:43 PM
No thanks.
http://www.cs.rice.edu/~cork/teachjava/notes/current/node101.html
I wouldn't want to be reminded either if I was that wrong!
http://www.cs.rice.edu/~cork/teachjava/notes/current/node101.html
I wouldn't want to be reminded either if I was that wrong!
ElJamoquio
07-08-07, 06:44 PM
I wouldn't want to be reminded either if I was that wrong!
Click on the link before you make ElJamoquio cry.
Click on the link before you make ElJamoquio cry.
Moochers_Dad
07-08-07, 06:56 PM
Watching Jan Ullrich is exciting.
"Watching Jan Ulrich is exciting" is different from you being "excited" when you are watching him.
"Watching Jan Ulrich is exciting" is different from you being "excited" when you are watching him.
USAZorro
07-08-07, 07:01 PM
Person on team in GC lead != team leader.
By that logic, Cancellara is the leader of CSC, Hincapie is the leader of Discovery, and Millar is the leader of Saunier Duval. The Astana situation is a little different, in that both those riders have been to the podium before, but I think we're better off leaving the decision-making up to the DS.
By that logic, Cancellara is the leader of CSC, Hincapie is the leader of Discovery, and Millar is the leader of Saunier Duval. The Astana situation is a little different, in that both those riders have been to the podium before, but I think we're better off leaving the decision-making up to the DS.
ElJamoquio
07-08-07, 07:07 PM
Please don't make ElJamoquio cry. Click on the link. Learn something.
mezza
07-08-07, 08:27 PM
Person on team in GC lead != team leader.
A multi milliion dollar cycling team aren't going to shange their strategy and team leader just because a lesser rider did well on one day.
Usually the team leader will be taking it easy for the first part of the tour, seeing the lay of the land, creeping up the GC gently, not overdoing it.
UNLESS the team leader crashes out. THEN they will make someone else numero uno.
A multi milliion dollar cycling team aren't going to shange their strategy and team leader just because a lesser rider did well on one day.
Usually the team leader will be taking it easy for the first part of the tour, seeing the lay of the land, creeping up the GC gently, not overdoing it.
UNLESS the team leader crashes out. THEN they will make someone else numero uno.
cjbruin
07-08-07, 08:34 PM
It will be interesting to see how it plays out. I picked Vino to win the whole thing and I still think he has a good chance. Though, let's not forget that Kloden finished 2nd three years ago and may be in very good form. I don't think the prologue will change things but a couple of days in the Alps could.
donrhummy
07-08-07, 08:45 PM
That's not how it works. There are many mountains to face before any decisions will be made on leaders. Otherwise, Sastre would have to support Cancellara and we all know that wouldn't work.
El Diablo Rojo
07-08-07, 08:52 PM
Since Kloedon has a 17 second lead on Vinokourov, does Vino have to refrain from attacking his "teammate"? Do you think that he can keep himself in check?
Kloedon will become the team leader once Vino has his inevitable melt down in the mountains. My podium:
Valverde
Menchov
Kloedon
Kloedon will become the team leader once Vino has his inevitable melt down in the mountains. My podium:
Valverde
Menchov
Kloedon
HigherGround
07-08-07, 09:14 PM
17 seconds on a flat stage can either be nullified or magnified once the road turns uphill and time gaps are measured in minutes. It's too early to tell. I was very surprised when Kloden joined Astana, based on how he would chase down Vino's attacks when they were teammates on T-Mobile. I imagine Vino is keeping a close eye on everyone.
2wheeled
07-08-07, 10:11 PM
A multi milliion dollar cycling team aren't going to shange their strategy and team leader just because a lesser rider did well on one day.
Usually the team leader will be taking it easy for the first part of the tour, seeing the lay of the land, creeping up the GC gently, not overdoing it.
UNLESS the team leader crashes out. THEN they will make someone else numero uno.
You can be sure that both Kloden & Vino rode flat out for the prologue, what does this tells us, it tells us that Kloden rode a very strong prologue and obviously is coming to the tour with form. Vino also rode an excellent prologue.
Astana will not put all their eggs in Vino's basket, not yet. The mountains will decide who has the legs to take it to Paris.
Usually the team leader will be taking it easy for the first part of the tour, seeing the lay of the land, creeping up the GC gently, not overdoing it.
UNLESS the team leader crashes out. THEN they will make someone else numero uno.
You can be sure that both Kloden & Vino rode flat out for the prologue, what does this tells us, it tells us that Kloden rode a very strong prologue and obviously is coming to the tour with form. Vino also rode an excellent prologue.
Astana will not put all their eggs in Vino's basket, not yet. The mountains will decide who has the legs to take it to Paris.
2wheeled
07-08-07, 10:13 PM
Kloedon will become the team leader once Vino has his inevitable melt down in the mountains. My podium:
Valverde
Menchov
Kloedon
Menchov will drift away from contention. The lad is good, but not second place good.
Valverde
Menchov
Kloedon
Menchov will drift away from contention. The lad is good, but not second place good.
skinny
07-08-07, 10:39 PM
Menchov will drift away from contention. The lad is good, but not second place good.Menchov is good; he's podium good, but there are quite a few good GC riders this year. Should be a good TDF.
adamastor
07-09-07, 12:40 AM
Person on team in GC lead != team leader.
Please explain (and yes, I read the link, and no, don't want to make you cry. Just want to understand your point. Until now this means to me, "the weakest guy in a team will always be the team leader, if he's 17 seconds ahead of his next team mate in the GC? if that is true, then you have to throw the history of past Tour winners out of the window, and from tomorrow onwards there won't be any breakaways, no sprints, no attacks, except from leaders of course.)
Please explain (and yes, I read the link, and no, don't want to make you cry. Just want to understand your point. Until now this means to me, "the weakest guy in a team will always be the team leader, if he's 17 seconds ahead of his next team mate in the GC? if that is true, then you have to throw the history of past Tour winners out of the window, and from tomorrow onwards there won't be any breakaways, no sprints, no attacks, except from leaders of course.)
ElJamoquio
07-09-07, 04:20 AM
"!= " Means DOES NOT EQUAL.
sob.
sob.
qmsdc15
07-09-07, 04:58 AM
Aha! ( the exclamation mark in this case is used to indicate an um... an exclamation). :D
a_fire_inside
07-09-07, 05:20 AM
"!= " Means DOES NOT EQUAL.
sob.
I was surprised that people weren't understanding that.
sob.
I was surprised that people weren't understanding that.
skydive69
07-09-07, 05:34 AM
A multi milliion dollar cycling team aren't going to shange their strategy and team leader just because a lesser rider did well on one day.
Usually the team leader will be taking it easy for the first part of the tour, seeing the lay of the land, creeping up the GC gently, not overdoing it.
UNLESS the team leader crashes out. THEN they will make someone else numero uno.
You that you think because a guy wins a 5 mile prologue he doesn't take over the team leadership? What a silly position that goes against the incredible experts that inhabit this board. LOL Perhaps it follows that Robbie takes over his team's leadership because he won one of the most exciting sprints ever.
Usually the team leader will be taking it easy for the first part of the tour, seeing the lay of the land, creeping up the GC gently, not overdoing it.
UNLESS the team leader crashes out. THEN they will make someone else numero uno.
You that you think because a guy wins a 5 mile prologue he doesn't take over the team leadership? What a silly position that goes against the incredible experts that inhabit this board. LOL Perhaps it follows that Robbie takes over his team's leadership because he won one of the most exciting sprints ever.
El Diablo Rojo
07-09-07, 05:52 AM
Menchov will drift away from contention. The lad is good, but not second place good.
Betcha a beer he finishes in front of Vino!
As the always astute Botto pointed out to me Astana's DS is German and the team is based in Switzerland. Kloedie has some allies on this team. It won't be long after the road turn upward that Kloeden will come to the fore and take over as team leader.
Betcha a beer he finishes in front of Vino!
As the always astute Botto pointed out to me Astana's DS is German and the team is based in Switzerland. Kloedie has some allies on this team. It won't be long after the road turn upward that Kloeden will come to the fore and take over as team leader.
El Diablo Rojo
07-09-07, 05:54 AM
You that you think because a guy wins a 5 mile prologue he doesn't take over the team leadership? What a silly position that goes against the incredible experts that inhabit this board. LOL Perhaps it follows that Robbie takes over his team's leadership because he won one of the most exciting sprints ever.
Actually if you look at Kloedens performance over the season he's ridden quite strongly even against his "boss". Time will tell but if past is prologue then Vino will collapse in the mountains.
Actually if you look at Kloedens performance over the season he's ridden quite strongly even against his "boss". Time will tell but if past is prologue then Vino will collapse in the mountains.
qmsdc15
07-09-07, 06:08 AM
You that you think because a guy wins a 5 mile prologue he doesn't take over the team leadership? What a silly position that goes against the incredible experts that inhabit this board. LOL Perhaps it follows that Robbie takes over his team's leadership because he won one of the most exciting sprints ever.
Dude, no one is saying that. != means "is not equal to".
I think the question was posed based on the idea that Kloden may have better form and perhaps a better chance than Vino to win. I think which ever is doing better in the mountains will become the designated leader, but I don't think the other one will work for the "designated leader" to the point where it will hurt his own chances in GC, regardless of director sportif's instructions. Unless and until Kloden shows better form in the mountains, Vino is the leader.
Dude, no one is saying that. != means "is not equal to".
I think the question was posed based on the idea that Kloden may have better form and perhaps a better chance than Vino to win. I think which ever is doing better in the mountains will become the designated leader, but I don't think the other one will work for the "designated leader" to the point where it will hurt his own chances in GC, regardless of director sportif's instructions. Unless and until Kloden shows better form in the mountains, Vino is the leader.
skydive69
07-09-07, 06:20 AM
Dude, no one is saying that. != means "is not equal to".
I think the question was posed based on the idea that Kloden may have better form and perhaps a better chance than Vino to win. I think which ever is doing better in the mountains will become the designated leader, but I don't think the other one will work for the "designated leader" to the point where it will hurt his own chances in GC, regardless of director sportif's instructions. Unless and until Kloden shows better form in the mountains, Vino is the leader.
Kloden is great, I do not deny that, but I really think that Vino will win the tour. Having said that, I would hate to have someone with Vino's personality tasked with supporting me - he is a bit of a loose cannon - a loose, albeit deadly one!
As always, it will not begin to sort itself out until the sprinters start getting dropped in the Alps, and then getting really busted up in the Pyrenees.
I think the question was posed based on the idea that Kloden may have better form and perhaps a better chance than Vino to win. I think which ever is doing better in the mountains will become the designated leader, but I don't think the other one will work for the "designated leader" to the point where it will hurt his own chances in GC, regardless of director sportif's instructions. Unless and until Kloden shows better form in the mountains, Vino is the leader.
Kloden is great, I do not deny that, but I really think that Vino will win the tour. Having said that, I would hate to have someone with Vino's personality tasked with supporting me - he is a bit of a loose cannon - a loose, albeit deadly one!
As always, it will not begin to sort itself out until the sprinters start getting dropped in the Alps, and then getting really busted up in the Pyrenees.
llewelyn85
07-09-07, 08:33 AM
Klöden is uber stronger. He is actually a pretty stylish rider. He has an exceptionally good fluid style on the climbs and TT's, so while he may not be 'aggressive' I think he's a good rider to watch.
Vino is still the leader of Astana. If Vino matches Klödi in the Alpes and is similar in the TT, Klöden will have to bury his chances in the Pyrenees for Vino. If not, then he may be allowed to ride for victory himself.
Vino is still the leader of Astana. If Vino matches Klödi in the Alpes and is similar in the TT, Klöden will have to bury his chances in the Pyrenees for Vino. If not, then he may be allowed to ride for victory himself.
Helmet Head
07-09-07, 11:08 AM
Person on team in GC lead != team leader.
er, BS!
skydive69, do you still think ElJamoquio's statement above is "BS", or are you acknowledging that you did not understand that "!=" means "does not equal"?
er, BS!
skydive69, do you still think ElJamoquio's statement above is "BS", or are you acknowledging that you did not understand that "!=" means "does not equal"?
SaintAndrew
07-09-07, 12:41 PM
it doesn't tkae a genius to see what'll happen. kloeden, although a more talented GC rider, will be too big of a girl to ride for himself, and will ride for vino, who'll drop the ball, at which point kloeden will reluctantly ride for himself but alas too late and will come in second or third.
timmhaan
07-09-07, 12:54 PM
it doesn't tkae a genius to see what'll happen. kloeden, although a more talented GC rider, will be too big of a girl to ride for himself, and will ride for vino, who'll drop the ball, at which point kloeden will reluctantly ride for himself but alas too late and will come in second or third.
this is the most likely outcome.
this is the most likely outcome.
donrhummy
07-09-07, 03:19 PM
OK, here it is from the Astana director sportif himself, Alexandre Schefer (as quoted in Cycle Sport):
Kloden will be as much of a co-leader as Alexandre Vinokourov, although he will have a different role to play. The race will decide who is our best contender...He's also got teo podium finishes in the tour already, so it's clear he's got it in him to win as well. We're ambitious for both of them, to be honest.
Kloden will be as much of a co-leader as Alexandre Vinokourov, although he will have a different role to play. The race will decide who is our best contender...He's also got teo podium finishes in the tour already, so it's clear he's got it in him to win as well. We're ambitious for both of them, to be honest.
reef58
07-09-07, 03:24 PM
And I will bet you a beer Valverde doesn't finish in the top 3. I will be surprised if he even finishes the race.
Richard
Betcha a beer he finishes in front of Vino!
As the always astute Botto pointed out to me Astana's DS is German and the team is based in Switzerland. Kloedie has some allies on this team. It won't be long after the road turn upward that Kloeden will come to the fore and take over as team leader.
Richard
Betcha a beer he finishes in front of Vino!
As the always astute Botto pointed out to me Astana's DS is German and the team is based in Switzerland. Kloedie has some allies on this team. It won't be long after the road turn upward that Kloeden will come to the fore and take over as team leader.
ultraman6970
07-09-07, 05:46 PM
Vinokourov should win this year... as sombody said before, is too early for the team to start with weird strategies, the race is just starting and the mountains that is the place where everything is decided is way ahead. Even if Vinokourov is not one of the top ten riders when getting to the mountains he will get all that time back for sure... I tottaly agree with 2wheeled
adamastor
07-09-07, 11:37 PM
"!= " Means DOES NOT EQUAL.
sob.
So why didn't you say so??? :D :D :D :D :D
sob.
So why didn't you say so??? :D :D :D :D :D
bikejack
07-10-07, 01:38 AM
Kloden learned all he knows from Jan Ullrich.
Do you mean he already knows how to ride for second best.
Do you mean he already knows how to ride for second best.
El Diablo Rojo
07-10-07, 06:08 AM
And I will bet you a beer Valverde doesn't finish in the top 3. I will be surprised if he even finishes the race.
Richard
Your on! How does one send beer via the internets?
Richard
Your on! How does one send beer via the internets?
El Diablo Rojo
07-10-07, 06:09 AM
Do you mean he already knows how to ride for second best.
Now that's funny!
Now that's funny!
2wheeled
07-10-07, 06:34 AM
Betcha a beer he finishes in front of Vino!
As the always astute Botto pointed out to me Astana's DS is German and the team is based in Switzerland. Kloedie has some allies on this team. It won't be long after the road turn upward that Kloeden will come to the fore and take over as team leader.
OK El D start looking for one of these...
http://www.badapplegraphics.com/octbeerbuild/pictures/bass%20ale.jpg
As the always astute Botto pointed out to me Astana's DS is German and the team is based in Switzerland. Kloedie has some allies on this team. It won't be long after the road turn upward that Kloeden will come to the fore and take over as team leader.
OK El D start looking for one of these...
http://www.badapplegraphics.com/octbeerbuild/pictures/bass%20ale.jpg
reef58
07-10-07, 06:50 AM
We can figure that out somehow.
Richard
Your on! How does one send beer via the internets?
Richard
Your on! How does one send beer via the internets?
Pale Ryder
07-11-07, 04:53 PM
Vino is unpredicatable Astana team manager should have him fetching bideons for Kloden in the mountains
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