Fifty Plus (50+) - Hydration lesson 101

I do this 50 mile run frequently in 3 hours on (3-4) .75 liter water bottles. I am 185# and 6 ft, no fat. This is at temperatures up to F95 and humidity above 50%.

My wife and I did this same run today. Temperature was F95, humidity 50%. BTW, she is 140# and 5'3".
I made a mistake of not watching my wife. She does this same run often without a problem. I failed to observe that she drank over one gallon of water. She got very bloated after 35 miles and felt very ill. I mean very ill!
We had to stop at a gas station to cool her off and feed her Gatorade. We managed to complete the ride slowly. She was OK one hour later and we had a nice dinner with wine.

The lesson to be remembered is: Do not drink one gallon of water without adding electrolytes. Your system may rebel and it is serious.

I've been doing something a little different lately. I usually take 2 bottles when I go riding, one has water and the other has Powerade or Gatorade and it seems to work pretty good. What my biggest fight is, getting off sugar.

You mean 50 mile ride rather than run, don't you?

You mean 50 mile ride rather than run, don't you?
I hope so. 50 miles in 3 hrs is nearly 17 mph, I couldn't do it if there is anything slightly resembling a hill on the route.

I've been doing something a little different lately. I usually take 2 bottles when I go riding, one has water and the other has Powerade or Gatorade and it seems to work pretty good. What my biggest fight is, getting off sugar.

Yes George, that makes sense. We used to do that until we got a problem with the bottle for Gatorade creating stomach problems. It spoils rather quick on hot days and we forgot to dishwasher clean it.
But, I agree that is a solution.

You mean 50 mile ride rather than run, don't you?

Sorry, yes.:)

I hope so. 50 miles in 3 hrs is nearly 17 mph, I couldn't do it if there is anything slightly resembling a hill on the route.

Sugar River R to T is about as flat as flat can be. Our Tandem goes like hell. We make a sport of beating 3 hours and often do.

The trail maps peg the mileage for the Sugar River Trail roundtrip as 46 miles, to split a hair. Do you add a few more miles in New Glarus or Brodhead to push it up to 50?

There was someone else on the forum last year who said they maintained an average of around 17.5 mph for the roundtrip.

I doubt I could do it in 4 hours, even if I was really trying.

Are there any lower sugar sports ade drinks? I stopped in Monticello the other day to pick up a drink and they had a sale on Powerade - 32 ounces for 94 cents. But if you drank the entire bottle, it had something like 50-60 grams of sugar in it. So I bought a 20 ounce bottle of Gatorade for 99 cents just to keep my sugar intake down.

"Perpetuem" by Hammer makes a big deal out of having no sugar. I don't care for the taste much (orange vanilla), but I really haven't given it a fair shot.

I also saw a Garmin readout on the Sugar River Trail that said the total elevation change over the entire 46 miles was 1550' (775' of climbing). That's an average of about 16' of climbing and 16' of descending per mile.

I have a "climb" of about 250' over the last 2.5 miles of trail and subdivision roads, with about 4/10ths of a mile at 5% right at the end. Gives me a little workout to finish up.

I guess I shouldn't be looking for a real low sugar sports drink ...

http://sportsmedicine.about.com/cs/hydration/a/aa041103a.htm

http://sportsmedicine.about.com/cs/nutrition/a/aa070703a.htm

http://www.weather.com/activities/health/fitness/fitness101_hydration.html

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=50559

Hammer Heed has 2g of sugar per serving.
It tastes fine too.
I usually use Clif or Gatorade Endurance powder mixed a little thinner than recommended.

Yes George, that makes sense. We used to do that until we got a problem with the bottle for Gatorade creating stomach problems. It spoils rather quick on hot days and we forgot to dishwasher clean it.
But, I agree that is a solution.

I have the insulated water bottles for hot weather and this seems to help. I never put my bottles in the dishwasher since I seldom use it. I do fill the bottles with water and a teaspoon of bleach and let them soak. This helps to keep the mold from forming in the bottles. Be sure to rinse thoroughly....nothing nastier than bleach-flavored Gatorade:eek:

The trail maps peg the mileage for the Sugar River Trail roundtrip as 46 miles, to split a hair. Do you add a few more miles in New Glarus or Brodhead to push it up to 50?

There was someone else on the forum last year who said they maintained an average of around 17.5 mph for the roundtrip.

I doubt I could do it in 4 hours, even if I was really trying.....................................................


Yes, we either add a few miles as you say or pro rate using our Cateye Astrale 8 average speed.
Ever since we use skinny tires we find the 16.5 MPH average doable. That is the magic number for a century in 6 hours or 50 miles in 3 hours and is the required speed for the Cross Country Tour I like to do next spring.
My Treck Hybrid has now 700 x 28 120 PSI tires. A average speed of 16.5 MPH is not at my maximum.

I also saw a Garmin readout on the Sugar River Trail that said the total elevation change over the entire 46 miles was 1550' (775' of climbing). That's an average of about 17' of climbing and 17' of descending per mile................................................................................................ .

That is interesting. I did not notice any grade on that trail. The wind direction and intensity seems more important. That is why I got aerobars on all my bikes.

I have the insulated water bottles for hot weather and this seems to help. I never put my bottles in the dishwasher since I seldom use it. I do fill the bottles with water and a teaspoon of bleach and let them soak. This helps to keep the mold from forming in the bottles. Be sure to rinse thoroughly....nothing nastier than bleach-flavored Gatorade:eek:

My wife is really picky as to any taste. It would be next to impossible to do the trick with bleach.
We can do and we will carry a bottle of Gatorade (or equivalent) on the bike and just trow the bottle away.
A Tandem has many places to carry an extra bottle.
Our mistake was more a mistake due to not thinking than a question of ability.

I've been doing something a little different lately. I usually take 2 bottles when I go riding, one has water and the other has Powerade or Gatorade and it seems to work pretty good. What my biggest fight is, getting off sugar.
+1, After 1 quart of water or 20 miles, whichever comes first I switch to Gatorade.

That is interesting. I did not notice any grade on that trail. The wind direction and intensity seems more important. That is why I got aerobars on all my bikes.

With the average "climb" per mile being only 16', I'm not surprised you didn't notice any grade. The average grade would be +/- 0.3%.

The heat has been pretty brutal all over the US these last few weeks. Right now by me the temp is 90F and the dew point is 74F!! The relative temp is greater >100. Out west they have multiple days running >110, with conditions like these you have to be really careful and too much water is as bad too little.

Keep cool out there.

Wisconsin is on the verge of a very nice cool-down. Wed-Sat in Madison, the temps are supposed to be highs in the mid-70s, lows in the mid-50s. It's 83 today.

Wisconsin is on the verge of a very nice cool-down. Wed-Sat in Madison, the temps are supposed to be highs in the mid-70s, lows in the mid-50s. It's 83 today.

I'd take the 83 as a good cool down for DC.

With the average "climb" per mile being only 16', I'm not surprised you didn't notice any grade. The average grade would be +/- 0.3%.

Yeah, I did this trail again today. I was thinking and looking for those 16' climb. I thought they must have measured the trees?:rolleyes:
BTW, I averaged 17.9 MPH going toward New Glarus. Going back I decided on a more leisurely pace.
The 17.9 MPH required going with aerobars. The bumpy trail makes that hard on the family jewels. So I do that only to race someone or to check my PB average.

The heat has been pretty brutal all over the US these last few weeks. Right now by me the temp is 90F and the dew point is 74F!! The relative temp is greater >100. Out west they have multiple days running >110, with conditions like these you have to be really careful and too much water is as bad too little.

Keep cool out there.

That is so true but it is not common knowledge. I am not a Newbie biker and had to be reminded of that by my distressed wife.:(

Yeah, I did this trail again today. I was thinking and looking for those 16' climb. I thought they must have measured the trees?:rolleyes:
BTW, I averaged 17.9 MPH going toward New Glarus.

I'd have been out there with you, but had to go to work.

If we ever meet up in New Glarus, I'll try to keep up with you for a mile. I've done a mile before at close to 17. Then you can give me "the look" and drop me at your leisure.

As to the 16' of elevation gain over a mile. That would be hard to see or notice. That's slightly less than a foot over 100 yards.

Are there any lower sugar sports ade drinks?

I've used a mix EnduroMax (sp?) that's like CytoMax. It has the different sugar (dextrose perhaps), vitamins, and some protein. The protein is supposed to help endurance. It's lightly flavored and the sugar doesn't hit you as sweet as sucrose. I usually mix it half strength.

Will,

Did you hear the green frogs singing their "banjo" songs along the trail? They were out in force last Thursday.

[QUOTE=Tom Bombadil]I'd have been out there with you, but had to go to work...............................................................................................
QUOTE]

I gave my notice to quit my job of 25 years last week. There was a top management change in the German parent company making my life miserable. So I quit.

Now I will have lots of time for biking. The Badger R to T will come in handy. I will look forward to biking to Madison from Freeport.

That also means another Cross Country SAG supported fast bike tour next spring and multiple months in FL trail biking.
All we need to worry about is remain healthy. There will be a long phase out period from my job and that is under contentious discussion.

Will,

Did you hear the green frogs singing their "banjo" songs along the trail? They were out in force last Thursday.

Well Tom, I am a big city boy and would not know how a green frog sings. I probably thought it is some critters.
However I am happy that you say it is frogs because there was a lot of talk of some deadly fungus killing them. So according to you they are alive and singing.
Great.:)

I bring two pints with me on my ride and continously hydrate and pour water over me when I get a chance. I went out for a 56 mile ride early yesterday and had to drink water frequently and pour water over my head and shoulders to cool off. At the bike trail I ususally ride, there's a place with water fountain and I usually refill. It's extremely important to hydrate often during any ride speically this time of the year.

I bring two pints with me on my ride and continously hydrate and pour water over me when I get a chance. I went out for a 56 mile ride early yesterday and had to drink water frequently and pour water over my head and shoulders to cool off. At the bike trail I ususally ride, there's a place with water fountain and I usually refill. It's extremely important to hydrate often during any ride speically this time of the year.

One Jim Beam, one Johnny Walker, I presume?

If she really guzzled 128oz of water, it is no wonder she felt
bloated, as it is hard for the stomach to empty at a rate
much faster than 32-40oz/hour and it likely wasn't empty to
start with. The 32+ emptying rate actually assumes optimal
electrolyte and sugar content in the liquid and plain water
empties at a slower rate. Two quarts or so sloshing around
in the stomach will make you feel bloated and she probably
had a mild electrolyte imbalance as well. Smaller people have
smaller stomachs to boot.

Are there any lower sugar sports ade drinks?

I have been using Camelbak Elixir for a few weeks and it's been great. NO SUGAR!!! All it does is replenish electrolytes. Combining Elixir with Trail Mix Bars has been a great combination. Elixir consists of tablets that disolve in water and the Lemon/Lime taste is bearable. They say that they will be coming out with new flavers soon.

If she really guzzled 128oz of water, it is no wonder she felt
bloated, as it is hard for the stomach to empty at a rate
much faster than 32-40oz/hour and it likely wasn't empty to
start with. The 32+ emptying rate actually assumes optimal
electrolyte and sugar content in the liquid and plain water
empties at a slower rate. Two quarts or so sloshing around
in the stomach will make you feel bloated and she probably
had a mild electrolyte imbalance as well. Smaller people have
smaller stomachs to boot.

Thank you for this information. We will keep it in mind and I think you are right.:)

More Info

http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/node/7556

More Info

http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/node/7556

Thanks. I forwarded it to my wife. She tends to fight with me on that issue because she wants to loose weight biking. I have told her many times that this is not a good idea. She only bikes 50 miles/week and expects to loose weight.:rolleyes:
She also does Curves and a fair amount of exercise equipment work out. But she is addicted to meat.:(

Calories In vs Calories Out, its a pretty simple equation. But you have to keep the engine going for it to be able to burn the calories. Meat is not really a bad thing, IMO. Its the carbs and sugars that kill you when you are trying to loose weight. I am not a Atkins fanatic but I found that by eliminating all breads, pastas, potatoes and sugars during the week I saw my weight drop much more quickly. This means I do eat more protein and vegetables. On weekends I quite watching but don't gorge, this seems to work for me as total abstinence is not within my willpower. I try to ride at least 100 miles/wk.

There's nothing wrong with sugar. It's the most basic fuel that the body uses to provide energy to working muscles.

The sucrose (table sugar) molecule is a disaccharide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disaccharide). In other words it's made up of two molecules of monosaccharides--fructose (usually found in fruits) and glucose.

The bigger the molecule, the longer it takes to break down for use by the muscles.

Hydration problems start when people mix their own. They use too much or too little of the powder that goes into water. The concentration affects how fast the liquid empties from the stomach. Too much powder and the liquid takes longer to empty. Not enough and the muscles don't get optimal fuel.

During my bike trip to Ocean City, last Wednesday, I restocked at each location where a red dot appears. I started with 2 x 24oz of Gatorade and restocked with the same. The temperature got up into the mid-80s F/high humidity.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v285/NoRacer/Misc/_Route-map-to-OCMD.jpg

On the way home, Sunday, I supplemented the Gatorade with plain water. I stopped 2-3 times more since the temperature was in the mid-to-high 90s F/high humidity.

Everyone is different, but not so different that they can disobey the rules regarding gastric emptying (providing the highest amount of fuel possible over the shortest time). Appropriate amounts of electrolyte salts in a 6-8% solution of sugars and water is the quickest method to do that.

I guess the bottom line is to practise eating and drinking on the bike to find out what works best for you.

Sorry, for barging in. I still have 6 months before turning 50. ;)

Well in the current heat, my solution was to stay home in A/C. My ride these last few weeks has been 20 miles in about 72 to 75 minutes. Not a speed person. Like to be, but the years of couch potato have taken a toll on my muscles. Anyway from these forums I've decided to go with treated water. Using the tips I've read here, I've bought powdered drink mixes at local market. It's not the biggest display, but they are there. I also got my latest water bottle there. A Thermos brand, 24 oz. with insulated jacket. A little tite in the bottle holder, but it fits. I also stop and dismount to drink, as part of a butt break. So tite fit is not a problem. I had used Caprisun Sports On the Go mix first. 25 cal. 85mg salt, 40 mg K, 5 grams sugar. Okay. But found Crystal Light On the Go with 5 cal. 75mg salt, 35mg K, ZERO sugar. All these mixes are individual paks that make 16.9 oz of a drink per directions. I mix them with 24 oz. water. Put maybe 8 oz. in water bottle and freeze. Add to bottle when ready to ride, add the jacket and go. Only problem is after 70 minutes I still have ice in bottle. When I do ride in this heat, I try to go early so I finish before temps reach 85F. Actually not so much the air temp that is brutal, it's the heat rising from the blacktop roads. Fortunately at least half my ride is in shade. But good or bad, at my pace and distance, 20 oz. of the treated water is fine. Beyond the 20 miles I'll need a refill and probably some carb snacks. But I choose to avoid that by riding just the 20 miles till it cools down.

She only bikes 50 miles/week and expects to loose weight.
As long as she takes in fewer calories than she uses during the week, she'll lose weight. Maybe not 2-3 lbs./week (which is what most people desire), but she'll lose it as long as her calorie intake is a little lower than she burns. I lost 30+ lbs. with just moderate walking (prior to getting back on a bike).... it's all how I ate, and what, and doing some kind of exercise most days of the week. It doesn't have to be long distances or high intensity. It was slow..... veeeery slooooow at times....... but slow, steady, and sure. 18 lbs. since last summer is only 1.5 lbs./month, a rate that frustrates most people (and understandably so). But 18 lbs. is a lot of weight no matter how slow it comes off.

Calories In vs Calories Out, its a pretty simple equation. But you have to keep the engine going for it to be able to burn the calories. Meat is not really a bad thing, IMO. Its the carbs and sugars that kill you when you are trying to loose weight. I am not a Atkins fanatic but I found that by eliminating all breads, pastas, potatoes and sugars during the week I saw my weight drop much more quickly. This means I do eat more protein and vegetables. On weekends I quite watching but don't gorge, this seems to work for me as total abstinence is not within my willpower. I try to ride at least 100 miles/wk.

We are comparing notes and not arguing, OK?
I do not like how meat sits in my system. I am 65. 185#, 6'1" and little fat if any. I do bike more than most bikers. Most days 50 miles and just did a week with 100 miles/day.
Here is my diet: Big oatmeal with fruit, pie's, fish with veggies OR plain pasta and salad. Lots of wine and some cheese.
I can control my weight very easy with this diet provided I do the biking.:)

There's nothing wrong with sugar. It's the most basic fuel that the body uses to provide energy to working muscles.

The sucrose (table sugar) molecule is a disaccharide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disaccharide). In other words it's made up of two molecules of monosaccharides--fructose (usually found in fruits) and glucose.

The bigger the molecule, the longer it takes to break down for use by the muscles.

Hydration problems start when people mix their own. They use too much or too little of the powder that goes into water. The concentration affects how fast the liquid empties from the stomach. Too much powder and the liquid takes longer to empty. Not enough and the muscles don't get optimal fuel................................................................................................


Sorry, for barging in. I still have 6 months before turning 50. ;)

Nice map and trip.:)
Welcome to 50+:)

As long as she takes in fewer calories than she uses during the week, she'll lose weight. Maybe not 2-3 lbs./week (which is what most people desire), but she'll lose it as long as her calorie intake is a little lower than she burns. I lost 30+ lbs. with just moderate walking (prior to getting back on a bike).... it's all how I ate, and what, and doing some kind of exercise most days of the week. It doesn't have to be long distances or high intensity. It was slow..... veeeery slooooow at times....... but slow, steady, and sure. 18 lbs. since last summer is only 1.5 lbs./month, a rate that frustrates most people (and understandably so). But 18 lbs. is a lot of weight no matter how slow it comes off.

Lucky, my wife is a great cook. I benefit from that. She also is her own best customer. She is Polish/German and that diet provides a continuous challenge for her and me.
I dropped a lot of weight by cutting out most meat + fried + bread and bike furiously 50 miles on most days. She cannot do that and is stuck at 140# for her 5'3". By no means heavy but she would like to drop about 5#. No dice.:(

The OP's initial post describing the problem also included the solution (no pun intended) . . . keep those electrolytes levels up during hot weather. I have nothing against sports drinks, but, OTOH, I can ride in the hottest weather while ingesting minimal amounts of water and almost nothing in the way of sports drinks . . . and I feel quite comfy doing this. The solution for me is to simply injest two teaspoons of plain old table salt before my ride . . . washed down one spoonful at a time with a bit of OJ or ice water.

It's a bit of a drill to get that salt down . . . it's not a pleasant taste . . . I make an effort to place it at the back of my tongue, then, a sip or two of OJ or water and the salt is beyond those taste centers where the sensation might make you want to gag.

If I had some salt tables, I'd take them instead . . . but table salt is handy and cheap.

I am certain that, if I really wanted to, I could ride in 90+ degree heat and take in very little water. I am not interested in testing this, so I will stop every 30 or 40 miles and sip some water, but I never feel dehydrated or stressed, and I return from my hot rides unfatigued . . . my clothes, even my face, full of gritty salt residue, but, physically, I am cool, calm, and comfortable.

I wonder if there are any doctors reading this who care to comment on whether the practice is sound, safe, dangerous or what.

I know I feel very comfortable . . . but that does not make me right.

Would love to hear more comments . . . and I'm wondering why salt tables seem to have gone out of style. Personally, I feel there is too much emphasis these days on hydration and far too little on the simple steps one can take to assure adequate levels of salts in the body to maintain adequate electrolyte levels.

I'm just a bike ridin' bloke, however, so, I would love to hear from someone who really knows body chemistry.

Great thread. Sorry, OP, about your wife's unpleasant ride.

Caruso

The OP's initial post describing the problem also included the solution (no pun intended) . . . keep those electrolytes levels up during hot weather. I have nothing against sports drinks, but, OTOH, I can ride in the hottest weather while ingesting minimal amounts of water and almost nothing in the way of sports drinks . . . and I feel quite comfy doing this. The solution for me is to simply injest two teaspoons of plain old table salt before my ride . . . washed down one spoonful at a time with a bit of OJ or ice water.

It's a bit of a drill to get that salt down . . . it's not a pleasant taste . . . I make an effort to place it at the back of my tongue, then, a sip or two of OJ or water and the salt is beyond those taste centers where the sensation might make you want to gag.

If I had some salt tables, I'd take them instead . . . but table salt is handy and cheap.

I am certain that, if I really wanted to, I could ride in 90+ degree heat and take in very little water. I am not interested in testing this, so I will stop every 30 or 40 miles and sip some water, but I never feel dehydrated or stressed, and I return from my hot rides unfatigued . . . my clothes, even my face, full of gritty salt residue, but, physically, I am cool, calm, and comfortable.

I wonder if there are any doctors reading this who care to comment on whether the practice is sound, safe, dangerous or what.

I know I feel very comfortable . . . but that does not make me right.

Would love to hear more comments . . . and I'm wondering why salt tables seem to have gone out of style. Personally, I feel there is too much emphasis these days on hydration and far too little on the simple steps one can take to assure adequate levels of salts in the body to maintain adequate electrolyte levels.

I'm just a bike ridin' bloke, however, so, I would love to hear from someone who really knows body chemistry.

Great thread. Sorry, OP, about your wife's unpleasant ride.

Caruso

I am thinking that your post is so accurate that it should be repeated.
From my personal experience I have to say this to your post:
A full intensity ride of 50 miles on limestone under 3 hours requires more water if the temperature is over F95 and the humidity over 50%. I hate the taste of salt. It is irrational. I eat most meals unsalted.
I do as you do. I go to the lower limit of proper hydration. No problems except once: It was over F100 and the humidity was high too. I had to get off the bike with typical pain of under hydration. That scared me. Since that time I learned the hard way the dangers of over hydration.
So you see that I have been around. I am unhappy that I was not smart enough to protect my wife and trying to make amends by spreading the word.
BTW, I could never get my wife to take salt or salt tablets. She will do Gatorade. She is very stubborn and love-able.

The next few days should be a pleasure on the trails, Will. Highs in the mid-70s. Shouldn't have to hydrate as much.

Would love to hear more comments . . . and I'm wondering why salt tablets seem to have gone out of style.

http://www.trainright.com/articles.asp?uid=2483

We are comparing notes and not arguing, OK?
I do not like how meat sits in my system. I am 65. 185#, 6'1" and little fat if any. I do bike more than most bikers. Most days 50 miles and just did a week with 100 miles/day.
Here is my diet: Big oatmeal with fruit, pie's, fish with veggies OR plain pasta and salad. Lots of wine and some cheese.
I can control my weight very easy with this diet provided I do the biking.:)

Hey Will,

I'm not arguing, I am just saying what works for me. I lived three years with a vegetarian and found eating no meat is fine with me. The problem though is it takes too damn much work to make a veggy diet varied and tasty, only so much you can do with lentils.


Peace:)

http://www.trainright.com/articles.asp?uid=2483

Tom- Thatis a good article. I did not know that what it says. Thanks.:)

Hey Will,

I'm not arguing, I am just saying what works for me. I lived three years with a vegetarian and found eating no meat is fine with me. The problem though is it takes too damn much work to make a veggy diet varied and tasty, only so much you can do with lentils.


Peace:)

stonecrd- Same here, thanks for the information. I am a big fan of Oatmeal (mixed with fruit and cereals) and Pasta (mixed with veggies) and Pie (with all kinds of fruit) and good red Wine with Cheese.
This works for me so well that I wonder what is wrong with it. Nothing that tasty can be all good?:)

Here is another article on hydration. Pretty general though.

http://www.active.com/cycling/Articles/Cracking-the-Code-on-Hydration.htm