Training & Nutrition - Atkins and cycling

ok,
the only time that I have been very effective in losing weight was when I did the Atkins diet. Not even the "WHOLE" Atkins, but an extremely reduced carb diet. I was never one to eat 20 pounds of bacon and cheese and think it was healthy just because there were no carbs...

I have only been into cycling for about a month...and started mainly too lose weight but I also really enjoy it...which should help. In talking with my DR he seems to think that I am intolerant to carbs. I have done other exercise programs and diet programs, and I am never very successful when it comes to inches or weight. in 3 months I worked out 6 days a week (3 days of lifting and 3 of cardio for 30 mins) and I lost 2 pounds and 2 inches. this was in conjunction with reduced calorie diet and eating 5 -6 small meals etc.

So I think that I want to go no/low carb again, but my concern is this...with very limited carb, how will that impact cycling? does anyone have experience with that? I thought the carbs were needed for activities like cycling. Thanks.

Atkins is bankrupt for a reason. Low-carb doesn't work for cycling...

Well Atkins is bankrupt because they poured tons of money into marketing a bunch of products that got to market right about the time that the whole "craze/fad" was ending...but that alone does not show that the diet was bad. can you give me more info other than doesnt work for cycling?

I maintain a relatively low carb diet and cycle, but I find that some carbs in the form of gels or energy drinks are necessary to maintain energy and muscle strength on longer rides. At some point my body just can't burn fat fast enough to keep up. For me that point is around 25 miles, but I have heard of other low carb cyclist who can go longer than that. If my priority was strictly weight loss, I would probably hold back more on carbs to force fat burning at the expense of overall performance, and I would tone down the intensity of rides to a more easily sustainable pace. Given that I am more interested in cardio fitness I go ahead and hit the carbs while training.

yeah, my goals at this point are to get more fit and loose weight. Once I have the weight gone, then I will worry more about increasing cardio fitnes etc.

Thanks.

But increasing cardio fitness can only help you lose weight -- I'm not sure they should be thought of as two separate things.

I'm sure others will chime in about the specifics regarding low carb diets and cycling....

I believe there are bad long term affects of the diet.

Atkins works for people who get no exercise, and it does so at a cost to your body's general health. If you are getting any exercise at all (30 min daily) you would be burning off the excess carbs from even a typical American diet.

Yes, the key is exercise. But you should still be concerned with matching your dietary intake to your exercise level. To lose weight, you want to eat fewer calories than you burn. This website provides an easy way to track your meals: http://www.fitday.com . I've tried close to all the diets out there, low/hi-carb, low/hi-fat, low/hi-protein, vegetarian, paleo, etc. The only consistent factor relating to weight-loss amongst them all was to eat less than you burn.

However, some of them provide this weight loss at the expense of health and fitness resulting in continual fatigue, listlessness, apathy with limited fitness-gains due to muscle-loss as well. Atkins is one of these diets (along with any of the other low-carb diets). Low-calorie diets with large deficits end up destroying too much muscle in order to get higher weight-loss rates. Sure you'll end up as a thin twig, but you'll also have no muscle-tone and still have love-handles and a double-chin. It is low muscle-glycogen from low-carb intake that destroys muscle the fastest, eating more proteins may help rebuild the damage afterwards, but it does nothing to ward off muscle-catabolism in the first place.


yeah, my goals at this point are to get more fit and loose weight. Once I have the weight gone, then I will worry more about increasing cardio fitnes etc.
To lose as much fat as possible as quickly as possible, you must burn off as many calories per day as possible. By riding 150-300 miles/week, I burn off about 3000 calories per day and eat about 2500 in order to lose 1-lb/wk (most of those calories from carbs). In order to do the longer 3-4 hour endurance rides that burns the most fat, you have to improve fitness to the level where you can actually DO that type of riding. So you can try to lose the fat first, but in the long run, it will come off faster if you focus on fitness first, then the weight-loss is a healthy side-effect of being in shape.


Well Atkins is bankrupt because they poured tons of money into marketing a bunch of products that got to market right about the time that the whole "craze/fad" was ending...but that alone does not show that the diet was bad. can you give me more info other than doesnt work for cycling?Fads come and go. Performance nutrition has been around for several millenia and has not changed that much. The diet of an Olympic runner is not that much different from that of a TDF champion or even a competitive bodybuilder. Here's some links of interest:

BF - Q about hear rates, losing fat vs lean body mass (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=232301)
BF - Im beating a ded horse but.... ATKINS AND CYCLING?!?!?! (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=177139)
BF - How Do I Lose FAT, not just Weight? (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=154872)


Bodybuilding.com - Anabolic Ammunition Arsenal (http://www.bodybuilding.com/teen/derek48.htm) (look about 3/4 down page for calorie-mix calculator)
ABCbodybuilding - A Scientific Investigation into the Rationality of Post Workout Carbohydrate Consumption (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/scientific.php)
ABCbodybuilding - Analysis of Nutrient use during Low, Moderate, and High Intensity Exercise (http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/Nutrientpartitioningpart3.php)
Bodybuilding.com - Post Workout Supplementation (http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/idssports8.htm)
Bodybuilding.com - Importance of post Workout Nutrition (http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/berardi4.htm)
SparkNotes - Functions of Carbohydrates (http://www.sparknotes.com/health/carbohydrates/section2.rhtml)
Peak Performance - How much protein do athletes need? (http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/protein.html) note "up to 150gm a day" for performance athletes.

And some real studies:

JAP - Carbohydrate feedings before, during, or in combination improve cycling endurance performance (http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/71/3/1082)
JAP - Improvements in exercise performance: effects of carbohydrate feedings and diet (http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/62/3/983)
JAP - Carbohydrate feedings and exercise performance: effect of initial muscle glycogen concentration (http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/74/6/2998)
JAP - Water and carbohydrate ingestion during prolonged exercise increase maximal neuromuscular power (http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/88/2/730)
JAP - Effect of carbohydrate feedings during high-intensity exercise (http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/65/4/1703)
JAP - Muscle glycogen storage after prolonged exercise: effect of the glycemic index of carbohydrate feedings (http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/75/2/1019)

AJCN - Nutrition and Endurance.PDF (http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/26/9/1011)
AJCN - Ketogenic low-carbohydrate diets have no metabolic advantage over nonketogenic low-carbohydrate diets (http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/83/5/1055)
AJCN - Carbohydrate administration during a day of sustained aerobic activity improves vigilance (http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/76/1/120)
AJCN - The role of dietary carbohydrates in muscle glycogen resynthesis after strenuous running (http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/34/9/1831)
AJCN - Effects of low energy diets on work performance.PDF (http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/35/5/1228)


Here's a good site that summarizes the available info in easy-to-digest layman's terms: http://www.cptips.com

Here's a good site that summarizes the available info in an easy-to-digest layman's terms: http://www.cptips.com

First of all, Danno - great post!!! Secondly, I've been using this site (link above) for years. Even though I don't think much (if any) has changed on the site, I still go back to refresh my memory. GREAT infor on that site! :)

... Brad

here is the thing...
I exercised regularly for three months.
burning somewhere around 300-350 callories a day.
as I stated earlier I did about 30 mins of cardio 3 days a week, and lifted 3 days.
I ate on average about 1800 calories a day. this should have resulted in a minimum of 500 calories deficit per day. so for 90 days, that is 13 weeks. should have lost at least 13 pounds. At Least.

I kept food journals etc to make sure that I am not eating more than 1800 a day...and in 13 weeks, I missed 2 days other than Sunday.

I am not looking for a quick fix...but the fact is that exercising and diet through "normal" diet is not working

here is the thing...
I exercised regularly for three months.
burning somewhere around 300-350 callories a day.
as I stated earlier I did about 30 mins of cardio 3 days a week, and lifted 3 days.
I ate on average about 1800 calories a day. this should have resulted in a minimum of 500 calories deficit per day. so for 90 days, that is 13 weeks. should have lost at least 13 pounds. At Least.

You are correct with your math. However, you are lifting, so some extra weight may be due to an increase in muscle. You will increase some muscle with aerobic exercise also. You really need to look at body fat loss/gain as opposed to your total weight loss/gain.

... Brad

I suspect you may not be tracking ingested calories accurately. It's easy to "make deals" and cheat. With such a low-calorie diet, it's very easy to feel hungry and cheat. Thermodynamics cannot be circumvented, at least in this universe. Energy cannot be created out of thin air or destroyed. IF you are maintaining a steady weight, then calories-in MUST equal calories-out.

What's missing here is your basal-metabolic rate for maintaining steady weight. While there ARE calculators out there that uses height, weight, body-fat, etc, they aren't super-accurate. What you've done is gathered your own data and have discovered that your BMR is 1500 calories/day (assuming you counted your food-calories accurately). What you have to do now is increase your exercise rate to 800 calories/day in order to lose 1-lb/wk.

And 30-minutes a day is NOT sufficient, it's just a warm-up. And lifting doesn't require 3-days. You'll end up burning more calories weekly by cutting that back to 1 day of lifting and adding two more days of biking. And you need to be doing AT LEAST 1-hour. That will triple the fat-calories burnt even though you've only doubled the time. That's due to the rates of lipolysis and fatty-acid metabolism:

AJCN - Lipid metabolism during endurance exercise - Horowitz & Klein. (http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/72/2/558S)
http://www.ajcn.org/content/vol72/issue2/images/medium/011447A.gifhttp://www.ajcn.org/content/vol72/issue2/images/medium/011448A.gif

If you integrate the surface-area under the curve, this gives you the total fat-burned during that time-slice. The 2nd 30-minutes burns over twice as much fat as the 1st 30-minutes. Adding those two together will give you over 3x the total fat-burned during a 60-minute ride compared to a 30-minute.

If you have limited time, then it's better to take a day off to get your work & other stuff done and then do a full 60-minute ride every other day. A 2-hour ride on the weekends will burn off over 7x as much fat as the 30-minute cardio workout.

Danno,

thank you. You saying that my Basal rate is low, was a huge revelation to me. I have seriously tried VERY hard to be VERY good about my caloric intake several times trying to loose weight. That make since to me as well. to give quick background, I was in the Milirary, and ate a ton every day, and stayed slim because of the workout load. Then I injured my knee and was unable to train. For about 5 years I was VERY lazy...and just recently (really since the end of November) I have been trying to do more to loose the weight and be more healthy.

So the question is this. If I ride 3 or 4 days a week for an hour, and 1 day a week I ride for closer to 2 hours...and I continue to try and eat1800 calories or so, would my BRM eventually rise?

Sure, BMR could rise over time. When you get to a lower body-fat percentage, BMR will go up since you don't have as much insulation and the majority of calories burned daily is to maintain even body-temperature. Fat is a better insulator than muscles.

Also with more muscle-mass, BMR goes up as muscle at rest burns more calories than fat, but it's not a huge difference unless you lose a lot of fat and gain a lot of muscle.

But BMR will decrease with lower body-weight since it'll take less energy to move a lighter body around.

So there are push & pull factors on both sides.

I successfuly ride my bike with a high fat/low carb diet. I may not be about to win le Tour De France but I get along fine. Yes if I want to do some sprint training then carbs help but for low intensity rides I fuel up with fish oil capsules. 4-5 capsules an hour is good.

Regards, Anthony

yeah, my goals at this point are to get more fit and loose weight.

Just eat what you're eating and do more cycling. I wouldn't get rid of carbs, they are hugely important.

http://bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=296070

the bottom line is: you would not drive 'cross country on an emtpy tank of gas, and you should not try and ride on a 1/2 full or empty tank.
Carb up + ride hard, knowing that you've eaten to win.

The success I had in weight loss can be directly attributed to a simple concept -- the understanding that processed foods pack more calories into a smaller package.

Think for a second about the volume of two extremes; a thousand calories of vegetables vs. a thousand calories of vegetable oil. The former will completely fill your stomach, while the latter will barely line your stomach walls. It takes a few weeks for your palate to adjust, but once you find the pleasure of eating unprocessed fresh fruits, vegetables and grains, you will find that you can finish each meal filled and fulfilled and begin an "effortless" decline of body weight. All without the charts and graphs, and scientific explanations - just as nature intended.

mcompton1973 (http://www.bikeforums.net/member.php?u=66121): you can also look into carb cycling. I lift and just started to ride to lose more fat. I'm not too concerned about the weight part, more so on the bodyfat %. I'm in a recomp phase, perhaps you're in that phase too rather then just losing fat. My bf% has slowly been dropping as I have been adding on muscle in places that never existed on me before :)

Recomp - it is a slow, yet steady body transformation whereby you seek to both lose body fat and gain lean body mass, concomitantly.

IF you are going to be doing a fair amount of cycling each week, then of all the great info in this thread, I think this is the most relevant and significant paragraph for you, compton:


However, some of them provide this weight loss at the expense of health and fitness resulting in continual fatigue, listlessness, apathy with limited fitness-gains due to muscle-loss as well. Atkins is one of these diets (along with any of the other low-carb diets). Low-calorie diets with large deficits end up destroying too much muscle in order to get higher weight-loss rates. Sure you'll end up as a thin twig, but you'll also have no muscle-tone and still have love-handles and a double-chin. It is low muscle-glycogen from low-carb intake that destroys muscle the fastest, eating more proteins may help rebuild the damage afterwards, but it does nothing to ward off muscle-catabolism in the first place.


I lost 20lbs of flab in my first 5 months of cycling, without making any changes to my diet. Well, that's not true, I was actually eating more than I was prior to cycling. At the time, I did not yet know about the mechanism of muscle catabolism, but I am glad that I resisted the urge to speed up the weight loss by reducing my calories (carbs or not).

The bottom line is that the better your engine, the better you are able to workout, and the better you are able to burn fuel. It's an upward spiral cycle that, for me, beats the heck out of over-restricting calories for the sake of short-term reduction of the number on the scale. I suppose a compromise would be to reduce carbs except for during your bike ride and post-workout recovery meal.

However, some of them provide this weight loss at the expense of health and fitness resulting in continual fatigue, listlessness, apathy with limited fitness-gains due to muscle-loss as well. Atkins is one of these diets (along with any of the other low-carb diets). Low-calorie diets with large deficits end up destroying too much muscle in order to get higher weight-loss rates. Sure you'll end up as a thin twig, but you'll also have no muscle-tone and still have love-handles and a double-chin. It is low muscle-glycogen from low-carb intake that destroys muscle the fastest, eating more proteins may help rebuild the damage afterwards, but it does nothing to ward off muscle-catabolism in the first place.

I disagree!

if you are eating enough protein and fat, you'll get all you need to build and maintain muscle. Your body makes all the glycogen it needs under normal circumstances, however if you ride for hours at a time, you might need to carefully and judiciously add some carbs to your diet.


here's what you can expect if you switch to a low carb diet:


you'll have plenty of protein to protect your muscles.
your lipid profile will dramatically IMPROVE.
your long term health will improve-low carb diets are helpful in treating and preventing various diseases, such as diabetes, alzheimers, parkinsons, and on and on. Maybe even cancer (tumors live exclusively off of sugar. think about that....)
you'll be eating a diet that is much closer to the diet that humans evolved on. high carb diets are only a fairly recent thing, in evolutionary terms.
High carb diets are far more inflammatory than low carbs, and inflammation is becoming more and more the prime suspect as the cause of heart disease.
You'll be eating a diet that is much more similar to mother's milk.


important things to remember regarding performance on a low carb diet.

it can take a few weeks to adapt, during which time you may feel less energy, impaired perfomance, etc.
if you are riding really really hard or for a long, long time, you may need to add some carbs. start with a low carb diet, and add just enough to support your rides.

I didn't make meaningful progress on weight loss through ~2 yrs of bike commuting until I started adding in lunchtime rides and/or extending my am/pm routes in/out. When I was really losing weight I was probably getting half my calories from cheerios w/ skim milk and apples.

mcompton1973 (http://www.bikeforums.net/member.php?u=66121): you can also look into carb cycling. [/SIZE][/FONT]


This is the approach I would take. So long as adequate carbs are consumed for recovery and to prevent as much catabolism as possible on cycling days, you should be fine for weight loss. It works well for many people.

I have been on the Atkins diet for over 4 years now and have had no problem cycling. I have been increasing my mileage in preparation for a century ride. I rode 3 hours on Sunday with no problems at all. Racing may be an issue, as some of the info I have come across seems to indicate the twitch muscles need carbs, but I don't care much about that.

I suggest you read the entire Atkins book before switching to the diet and understand you are changing you bodies primary source of fuel from carbs to fat. This is not something you want to quit after you get to your desired weight.

It has worked very well for me. I have maintained my weight within 5 lbs over the 4 years and I play hockey, hike, and cycle with no ill affects. It takes a few weeks for your body to adjust and you will be weak, but once your body adjusts it is fine. Most people think Atkins is induction phase forever. I eat plenty of carbs, they are just in lower proportion to fat and protein and they are never from sugar.

Keep well hydrated when exercising.

ok,
the only time that I have been very effective in loosing weight was when I did the Atkins diet. Not even the "WHOLE" Atkins, but an extremely reduced carb diet. I was never one to eat 20 pounds of bacon and cheese and think it was healthy just because there were no carbs...

I have only been into cycling for about a month...


So I think that I want to go no/low carb again, but my concern is this...with very limited carb, how will that impact cycling? does anyone have experience with that? I thought the carbs were needed for activities like cycling. Thanks.


The other posts cover the subject well, but here are some other considerations.

Loosing weight is not the issue. It's maintaining the proper weight range that's important. Unless the so-called diet can be maintained for life, you are wasting your time and stressing your health needlessly.

Anyone who's even considering anything to do with Atkins needs to do some serious self-educating on nutrition pronto. Unfortunately, that's not a simple job because of so much bad information and folklore promulgated in the media, on the web and yes, even on forums. I don't know why the low carb myth is still with us, but the healthiest folks in the world eat mostly carbs (little meat/dairy and high on plant derived food). A world wide population study (750,000 sample size if I remember correctly) found that those in the proper weight range were eating a high carb diet. The high meat folks were porky.

As a starter, get a copy of Ryan's new book (Sports Nutrition for Endurance Athletes, 2nd edition). It's state of the art even for couch potatoes and is very scientifically based and with appropriate caveats. It also deals with weight loss.

Maintaining proper fitness and health is a life-time challenge. You haven't scratched the surface yet with a month of cycling.

Al

Stay away from fast food and processed foods. Sodas are really bad for you, too. Switching to whole wheat or multi-grain breads, brown rice, whole wheat pasta that's not overcooked and eating lots more vegetables and fruit will really help. Drink a lot of water, especially with meals. Most people are chronically dehydrated, you are often just thirsty when you think you are hungry. It takes a good bit of water to metabolize fat, too.

Other diet tricks include eating slowly, chewing your food very thoroughly(also helps to slow your pace), using a small plate. The smaller plate works well for me.

I've picked up a few other things that may help, they certainly don't hurt. I take the stairs instead of the elevator. When I head to the store or mall, I park as far away as I can so I get a longer walk. I eat earlier in the evening so I'm not stuffed when I go to bed. I eat a good breakfast in the morning and often only feel like having a snack in the midday instead of a whole pizza.

It's easier to go faster and longer when riding in a group. I find my pace is often 2-3 mph higher when in a group. Plus, in a couple of groups, I can always count on some of the guys to sprint or race up a hill before regrouping. If you get winded, you can then hang in the back and recover.

Low-carb diet advocates: I eat a high carb natural foods vegetarian diet. I can easily ride 40 miles without eating anything. Or drinking water if that mattered, which it doesn't. Averaging about 19 at a moderate HR, so that's maybe a 2 hour ride. What I'm saying is that for the first 2 hours, energy-wise, it doesn't matter what your diet is. You don't need to eat anything. So the fact that you can ride 2 or 3 hours without eating much carbs is meaningless. It's in the next 60 or 200 or 300 miles that you'll notice what's going on, and you'll buy a 480 calorie manufactured totally junk fruit pie (or its equivalent) in the next convenience store you come to and start to feel OK again. Either that or you'll be sitting in a ditch watching the pretty colors. Or you can just not ride more than 2 or 3 hours at a time.

Again, riding short distances almost any diet will do. Your body can recover by making glycogen out of protein if you refuse to eat carbs. But try to ride a 15 hour 400k and you'll quickly see that you need to eat about 80% complex carbs, some protein and a little fat during the ride. So why not eat a high carb diet all the time? I lose weight and gain muscle just fine on this diet, and I'm never hungry. I want to lose more weight, I just ride more. It's really pretty simple. Not feeling well? Ride more. Feeling well? Ride more. Cheapest health care you can find. If you're in the northern hemisphere BTW, it's time to ride in the mountains. If there aren't any near you, go find some.

And again, listen to Danno. He just keeps getting better.

Low-carb diet advocates: I eat a high carb natural foods vegetarian diet. I can easily ride 40 miles without eating anything. Or drinking water if that mattered, which it doesn't. Averaging about 19 at a moderate HR, so that's maybe a 2 hour ride.

What I'm saying is that for the first 2 hours, energy-wise, it doesn't matter what your diet is..[/SIZE]


You could be burning protein and cannibalizing muscle mass. It's not a good idea to go that long with out carbs not to mention water just because you can do it.


Al

You could be burning protein and cannibalizing muscle mass. It's not a good idea to go that long with out carbs not to mention water just because you can do it.


AlNaw, I'm just burning a bit of muscle gycogen and residual blood sugar along with a little fat. I start hitting the high carb juice as soon as I begin to feel funny. It's fun, no harm, and hardens one up a bit. Lots of folks have made your comment, but haven't done the practice regularly. When I started really training, I couldn't go half an hour without eating or my blood sugar would go through the floor. It's amazing how one's metabolism can adjust. I'm just saying that just because you can ride 2 or 3 hours on olive oil and beef jerky doesn't mean you can do a century on that diet and at that pace.

did someone say beef jerky?

Naw, I'm just burning a bit of muscle gycogen and residual blood sugar along with a little fat. I start hitting the high carb juice as soon as I begin to feel funny. It's fun, no harm, and hardens one up a bit. Lots of folks have made your comment, but haven't done the practice regularly. When I started really training, I couldn't go half an hour without eating or my blood sugar would go through the floor. It's amazing how one's metabolism can adjust. I'm just saying that just because you can ride 2 or 3 hours on olive oil and beef jerky doesn't mean you can do a century on that diet and at that pace.

Check out Ryan's book I mentioned in my other post here. You'll find that you are incorrect.

Al

Atkins is for clueless ******* that watch soap operas and don't know complex carbs (good) from simple carbs (bad). If you think hambugers,hot dogs,bacon and heavy cream is good for you then you are an Atkins ******.

Atkins is for clueless ******* that watch soap operas and don't know complex carbs (good) from simple carbs (bad). If you think hambugers,hot dogs,bacon and heavy cream is good for you then you are an Atkins ******.


that is about the most ******** opinion on low carb that I've seen on this board, and that is really saying something!

if you think a diet that is full of sugar is good for you, well, you know what you are!

what, exactly, is wrong about a diet of protein and fats? they are essential to your survival, whether you are ******** or not...

Clearly, there are unhealthy high-carb diets and unhealthy low-carb diets. Maybe, just maybe, the best diet is somewhere in between. Hearing the extremes shout at each other gets old fast....

Maybe, just maybe, the best diet is somewhere in between. Hearing the extremes shout at each other gets old fast....

It's not an extremes issue at all. It's an issue of getting the correct balance and amounts of nutrients which include far more than just vitamins and minerals, and calories. The only way to do that is diet low on animal products (low relative to the typical American diet) and high on plant-derived food which is very high on carbs.

Even our ancestral hunter-gatherer humans had a diet based about 70% on plant food (but no French Fries). Some like the Australian Aborigines, who were always hunter-gathers before being "civilized" by the those pardoned from the Old Bailey, had a typical lifespan in the high 90's.

Then too, the wild game of the "hunter" component is amost fat free. I once ate beef from a grass fed cow and what a difference. Not all that tasty if you are used to the "fatted cow" type. When my son has a deer butchered, they add pork fat to the meat used to make sausage.

Not that fat is bad for you, but it apparently needs to be primarily unsaturated which is again from plants.


Al

It's not an extremes issue at all. It's an issue of getting the correct balance and amounts of nutrients which include far more than just vitamins and minerals, and calories. The only way to do that is diet low on animal products (low relative to the typical American diet) and high on plant-derived food which is very high on carbs.

Even our ancestral hunter-gatherer humans had a diet based about 70% on plant food (but no French Fries). Some like the Australian Aborigines, who were always hunter-gathers before being "civilized" by the those pardoned from the Old Bailey, had a typical lifespan in the high 90's.

Then too, the wild game of the "hunter" component is amost fat free. I once ate beef from a grass fed cow and what a difference. Not all that tasty if you are used to the "fatted cow" type. When my son has a deer butchered, they add pork fat to the meat used to make sausage.

Not that fat is bad for you, but it apparently needs to be primarily unsaturated which is again from plants.


Al

where do you get the information that our ancestral hunter gather humans ate a lot of plants?

all I've ever read indicates that early humans ate almost all meat. and it's a pretty good guess that they ate the fattiest parts too.

Yes, natural grass fed beef is better for you, it contains more omega 3, etc. etc. Tastes better too, in my opinion -it's a little bit chewier, but I've come to prefer it over the more tender but blander standard grain fed beef.



it makes sense that you are better off eating the types of foods that humans evolved on - meats and yes, fats, and avoiding the foods that have only recently been introduced, recent in evolutionary terms, anyway. Your body simply doesnt know how to react to this stuff.

if you have the time, here's a lengthy piece by Dr. Eades on inflammation, heart disease, the role that diet plays... it's speculation, as he admits, but it makes a lot of sense.


http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/?p=804

that is about the most ******** opinion on low carb that I've seen on this board, and that is really saying something!

if you think a diet that is full of sugar is good for you, well, you know what you are!

what, exactly, is wrong about a diet of protein and fats? they are essential to your survival, whether you are ******** or not...
You are clueless if you think suger is complex carbs. I get my protein and fats from beans,lentiles,salmon etc not from hamburgers,hot dogs, heavy cream etc. Ask Dave Scott (6-time Ironman Champ) what he thinks of the Atkins diet.

I agree completely. I was making the case for balance, a word you use below. By extremes, I meant the fanatics. I don't have a dog in this fight, really.

No french fries? Damn! :D


It's not an extremes issue at all. It's an issue of getting the correct balance and amounts of nutrients which include far more than just vitamins and minerals, and calories. The only way to do that is diet low on animal products (low relative to the typical American diet) and high on plant-derived food which is very high on carbs.

Even our ancestral hunter-gatherer humans had a diet based about 70% on plant food (but no French Fries). Some like the Australian Aborigines, who were always hunter-gathers before being "civilized" by the those pardoned from the Old Bailey, had a typical lifespan in the high 90's.

Then too, the wild game of the "hunter" component is amost fat free. I once ate beef from a grass fed cow and what a difference. Not all that tasty if you are used to the "fatted cow" type. When my son has a deer butchered, they add pork fat to the meat used to make sausage.

Not that fat is bad for you, but it apparently needs to be primarily unsaturated which is again from plants.


Al

You are clueless if you think suger is complex carbs. I get my protein and fats from beans,lentiles,salmon etc not from hamburgers,hot dogs, heavy cream etc. Ask Dave Scott (6-time Ironman Champ) what he thinks of the Atkins diet.


complex carbs break down into sugar. simple as that. they break down slower, and there are benefits from eating some of them...

I could care less what Dave Scott thinks...

except for the salmon, you are getting poor quality protein.

Clearly, there are unhealthy high-carb diets and unhealthy low-carb diets. Maybe, just maybe, the best diet is somewhere in between. Hearing the extremes shout at each other gets old fast....

Why do you Hate America?

Guys, stop feeding the troll. This fight has been had many times over (usually with mrfreddy). It is kinda like wrestling a pig in the mud, after awhile you realize that the pig enjoys it.

Why do you Hate America?

:roflmao:

complex carbs break down into sugar. simple as that. they break down slower, and there are benefits from eating some of them...

I could care less what Dave Scott thinks...

except for the salmon, you are getting poor quality protein.
Is hamburgers, bacon, heavy cream and processed meets such as hot dogs, bologna, salami etc good quality Atkins-friendly protein ?:rolleyes:

hamburgers...YUMMY..think I'll go get a baconator right now!

Yeah, who needs glycogen? That stuff is for whimps. Real men ride without glycogen stores to fuel muscle contraction. Plus, if you're only able to ride about 5 mph, you can check out all the girls on the trail. :rolleyes:

For the record, I lost 180 lbs. on a very high carb diet. Just don't eat stupid crap and ride the hell out of your bike. The weight will take care of itself.

where do you get the information that our ancestral hunter gather humans ate a lot of plants?

all I've ever read indicates that early humans ate almost all meat. and it's a pretty good guess that they ate the fattiest parts too.

Yes, natural grass fed beef is better for you, it contains more omega 3, etc. etc. Tastes better too, in my opinion -it's a little bit chewier, but I've come to prefer it over the more tender but blander standard grain fed beef.



it makes sense that you are better off eating the types of foods that humans evolved on - meats and yes, fats, and avoiding the foods that have only recently been introduced, recent in evolutionary terms, anyway. Your body simply doesnt know how to react to this stuff.

if you have the time, here's a lengthy piece by Dr. Eades on inflammation, heart disease, the role that diet plays... it's speculation, as he admits, but it makes a lot of sense.


http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/?p=804


It's good to be skeptical of anything one reads on a forum. It's from Nicholas Wade's Before the Dawn, published 2006.

Very early human ancestors were probably 100% into plant food. Meat was added they speculate to support the higher energy requirements of a larger brain which consumes 20% of the total energy consumed by modern humans. Of course, the brain itself consumes pure glucose.

I'm not sure it does make sense to eat what our ancestors ate. First you have to determine which ones for which environment. By that I mean they now know that evolution can cause a major genetic change is as little as a 500 year period. So you might need to choose your ancestral period carefully to be relevant to today's environment if one exists at all.

Also, I would suppose that man's diet best for evolutionary success is that which keeps one fit through the age of procreation. Mother nature probably could care less how healthy you are or how long you live after that since the survival of the species has already been addressed. The diet to survive say 20 or so years might not be the best for say living to 100. Just look at a teenager.

That might not be totally true as they believe that cultural behavior also has a genetic affect. So it could be that an old guy might still have some species survival contribution, though certainly not near as great as he had in his younger years.

Now a days, we are all trying to live well into old age, so it might be best to rely on nutrition science (such as it is) rather than evolutionary history.

Al

I could care less what Dave Scott thinks...

Stupid world-class athletes and their silly training. Bah, I smell a cheeseburger sans bun and it's calling my name. Excuse me while I go devour my ticket to weight loss.

complex carbs break down into sugar. simple as that. they break down slower, and there are benefits from eating some of them...

I could care less what Dave Scott thinks...

except for the salmon, you are getting poor quality protein.

Looking at carbs from the simple and complex definition is now OBE as is "quality protein". If you want to catch-up to the present state of the art, read Ryan's book which I've already referenced in this thread.

Al

Is hamburgers, bacon, heavy cream and processed meets such as hot dogs, bologna, salami etc good quality Atkins-friendly protein ?:rolleyes:

actually, yes, they all are, if your only concern is weight loss. there are good reasons, of course, to avoid eating too much processed meats tho, beyond just weight loss concerns.