curbside is NOT where well implemented bike lane designs place cyclists;
Okay, let's design a new road. Let's say it is a typical suburban collector through street that will not carry enough traffic to warrant more than one lane for motor traffic in each direction, nor warrant right-turn-only lanes. Desired vehicle speeds are between 25 and 35 mph. Drivers will occasionally park on the street.
How do you design such a street for bike lanes without either (1) putting the bike lane against the curb, (2) putting the bike lane in conflict with car parking/car doors, or (3) making the pavement so wide as to encourage speeds above 35 mph? How much additional right of way do you have to buy, and how much additional impervious surface do you create?
My design is simple: 32 feet of pavement, no striping. Cyclists ride a generous distance from the curb, near the center of the lane when traveling at higher speeds. Motorists overtake cyclists at safe distance, often encroaching slightly left of center as oncoming traffic allows. Cyclists merge left when encountering occasional parked cars.
How many car-bike overtaking collisions have occured on this type of road in Cary? Zero according to our police database. How many close passes or harassment have I encountered as a cyclist on such roads? Zero. There's no problem to be solved by striping on these roads. The vast majority of road miles in Cary are of this type of road or lower traffic designation. Nearly all of the road miles in Cary under city maintenance are of this category or lower.
So when bike lane advocates approach Cary promoting bike lane stripes as being a fundamental requirement of bicycle-friendliness, where do you think the city will try to put them? On the 32' wide collector roads of course, curbside, all the way up to the intersections, squeezed into door zones, and whatnot. Bad bike lane design is a direct result of bike lane promotion by bikeway advocates for the sake of marketing over operational benefit.
The BikeForums Team
-adv-
This is an archived thread, you can find the full version of this thread, with images, links and more content here.
steve, slow speed two lane roads may well be served with a WOL design; unfortunately, many, MANY roads are multi lane, higher speed roads.
you will NOT find a large or medium city in the USA designed soley with slow, two lane roads.
WOL's play a place in community infrastructure for bicycling (along slow roads like steve mentions), but relying soley on WOLs as the sole design accomodation for bicyclists in communities will leave bicyclists hugging the curb,on the sidewlaks, and improperly positioned at intersections.
Bekologist
so its education, and two lane, 25MPH roads, eh? :lol: that's the solution?
I posted a thread months back about high speed roads with "RIGHT LANE BUSES, BIKES AND RIGHT TURNING TRAFFIC ONLY" (State Highway 99 thru suburban Seattle) and about how this type of road was more pleasant than an unrestricted right hand lane. To increase bicycling along this road, however, wide, accomodating bike lane design would work more effectively to encourage bicycling along this cooridor.
joejack951
steve, slow speed two lane roads may well be served with a WOL design; unfortunately, many, MANY roads are multi lane, higher speed roads.
you will NOT find a large or medium city in the USA designed soley with slow, two lane roads.
WOL's play a place in community infrastructure for bicycling (along slow roads like steve mentions), but relying soley on WOLs as the sole design accomodation for bicyclists in communities will leave bicyclists hugging the curb,on the sidewlaks, and improperly positioned at intersections.
Then why not advocate for slower speed roadways rather than slapping some bike lane paint down and calling it good enough?
Bekologist
hmm, imagine the congestion and traffic jams with 25 MPH, two lane roads all over a large metropolitan area..... :lol: I'd still want bike lanes to bypass all the traffic congestion, because remember, bicyclists can get caught in traffic jams in wide lanes, and be forced to either wait in traffic or do the ( relatively unsafe) bumper/bumper side/side traffic weave...
sggoodri
steve, slow speed two lane roads may well be served with a WOL design; unfortunately, many, MANY roads are multi lane, higher speed roads.
you will NOT find a large or medium city in the USA designed soley with slow, two lane roads.
Okay, so by focusing on roads posted over 35 mph, we've narrowed down to about 10% of urban/suburban road miles. (It's nice to know we can leave 90% of the roads alone.)
As I've said before, I don't have a strong opposition to bike lane striping on the fastest, most freeway-like roads with few intersections; many of these have wide paved shoulders between intersections. The primary problem with the striping on these roads is the accumulation of debris. As a practical matter, this debris is difficult for local cyclists to address because all of these high-speed roads are maintained by the state of North Carolina, not the city. Local cyclists have far less power to get the state do sweep state roads compared to getting the city to sweep municipal roads. So, these bike lanes won't get swept, and I'm not real excited about seeing more of these road stripeds that way instead of the default 14' WOLs.
Between the freeway-like roads and the <=35 mph roads are a mixture of kinda-fast roads where the most variation in opinion about bike lanes probably exists among cyclists. Some of these roads have lots of commercial driveways and intersections; NCDOT's Bicycle and Pedestrian Division actively discourages striping bike lanes through such areas in favor of wide outside lanes due to the junction issues. Other roads have more access control, with fewer junctions. If more of these roads were striped with what you would consider "well designed" bike lanes that end before significant junctions, and were well swept, I wouldn't really care, but I am too skeptical about the design and maintenance of these by the state to endorse advocacy efforts to mark them in such a way.
What has happened in Cary, and in many cities, is that bikeway advocacy for the sake of increasing bikeway miles, independent of operational merit, has encouraged cities to apply striping treatments in overwhelmingly inappropriate locations merely because those are the places where space was available for cheap expedient installation. This is what has turned othewise mild-mannered cyclists against the view of bike lane striping as an "inherent good" for cyclists. The few high-speed locations where bike lane striping might, according to the most credible, popular theories, improve operational conditions for cyclists are those state-controlled roads where it is most politically difficult to (1) obtain the right of way for adequate bike lane width, (2) obtain any bicycle markings on the roadway, and (3) obtain adequate maintenance of the bike lane. It's just not worthwhile for me as a cyclist advocate to mess with limited use of bike lanes when WOLs work reasonably well for those roads, and alternate routes on 35 mph collectors are a better match to what the traffic-averse cyclists prefer.
genec
Okay, let's design a new road. Let's say it is a typical suburban collector through street that will not carry enough traffic to warrant more than one lane for motor traffic in each direction, nor warrant right-turn-only lanes. Desired vehicle speeds are between 25 and 35 mph. Drivers will occasionally park on the street.
That road doesn't need anything. Really. At 25MPH a road is probably quite suitable with nothing added. At 35MPH add a few share the road signs and be done with it.
Now lets design a new road that is typically used in cities in the west... the road is 3 lanes either way, has ROTL and LOTL, a 50MPH speed limit and motorists typically drive 5-10MPH over that... There are regular intersections, and shopping centers. Motorists typically drive just over 35MPH in the far right lane and are often distracted while looking for business addresses.
Now design THAT road.
Bekologist
drivers tool down roads marked 25 mph doing 30-35 in this city. roads marked 35, 5-10 miles over that.
genec
drivers tool down roads marked 25 mph doing 30-35 in this city. roads marked 35, 5-10 miles over that.
Sounds like an enforcement issue. Wonder how Cary NC deals with that?
Bekologist
i think Steve portrays Cary as Utopia, capitol of Erehwon, in bike forums. Sir Thomas More would be proud.
Bekologist
i think Steve also minimizes the purpose, size, and speed of arterial roads in and out of cities......as well as their utility to bicyclists.....
rando
Okay, so by focusing on roads posted over 35 mph, we've narrowed down to about 10% of urban/suburban road miles. (It's nice to know we can leave 90% of the roads alone.)
no way, Jose. here many, many of the E-W and N-S arterials (spaced out every mile or two in the sprawling burbs) are 6 laned 45 mph speed limit urban freeways where people drive 50-60 mph. not a happy place for a cyclist.
sggoodri
Now lets design a new road that is typically used in cities in the west... the road is 3 lanes either way, has ROTL and LOTL, a 50MPH speed limit and motorists typically drive 5-10MPH over that... There are regular intersections, and shopping centers. Motorists typically drive just over 35MPH in the far right lane and are often distracted while looking for business addresses.
Now design THAT road.
I encourage the diversity of road types that most healthy cities attempt to provide. The local access streets are typically 25 mph with many stop signs since they are low priority roads; the collectors are typically 25-35 mph with stop signs or signals where they meet more important roads such as thoroughfares. I support making the collector road system well connected enough to support most short local trips between different land uses (residential, commercial) in a convenient manner, providing an excellent cycling environment for traffic-averse cyclists.
Collectors can be strung together to provide longer routes for cross-town trips, a feature I often take advantage of when cycling with my family or novices, but at the cost of reduced convenience from all the stops and signals where thoroughfares have greater priority. This reduced convenience is necessary in order to protect the collectors from being overwhelemed by through motor traffic. The thoroughfares therefore need to outperform the well-connected collectors for motor traffic if the collectors are to be kept pleasant for cycling.
The thoroughfares will also be the most convenient routes for cycling, and so it is equally important that they be designed and enforced to accommodate cyclists well, even if they are not the only routes available to reach certain destinations. (In a well-designed suburban/urban environment, thoroughfares will not be the only routes to reach destinations. A main failing of some suburban planning is the lack of redundant, local routes.)
If the thoroughfare has many driveways and intersections, it should be designed for 35 mph (or less, some 25mph downtown main streets are technically classified as thoroughfares), and wide outside lanes should be used. Right turn only lanes should be short and used only where capacity is required at signalized intersections, and not as a means of preventing turning traffic from reducing vehicle speeds below maximum. Wide outside lanes should be routed left of the right turn only lanes.
If the thoroughfare is being designed with a priority on access control and mobility for long distance travel, with long distances without junctions, then wide paved shoulders could be provided in addition to a generous outside through lane. Where right turn only lanes exist, the outside through lane should be made at least 14' wide. Free-flowing merges/diverges should be avoided, but if employed, should have radii and other features that encourage slow speed at the area where motor and bicycle traffic will merge. If the junction count is minimal, "well designed" bike lanes would probably be fine, if they are swept regularly and end before intersections lacking RTO lanes.
If the road is really intended to perform as a freeway, though, then it should be made fully controlled access. Prohibit all driveway access and provide a more pleasant local street system to serve surrounding destinations. I have told our city transportation planners repeatedly that I like streets, because they provide access to my destinations, and I like freeways, because they keep long-distance traffic off the streets, but I don't like roads that try to be something in between, because they create undesirable conflicts between high-speed long-distance traffic and access to the local destinations that they serve, which tend to multiply due to the motivations of commercial land developers to locate retail on important roads with visibility to many drivers.
why encourage bicyclists hugging the sides of roads and shoulder riding, steve?
genec
If the road is really intended to perform as a freeway, though, then it should be made fully controlled access. Prohibit all driveway access and provide a more pleasant local street system to serve surrounding destinations. I have told our city transportation planners repeatedly that I like streets, because they provide access to my destinations, and I like freeways, because they keep long-distance traffic off the streets, but I don't like roads that try to be something in between, because they create undesirable conflicts between high-speed long-distance traffic and access to the local destinations that they serve, which tend to multiply due to the motivations of commercial land developers to locate retail on important roads with visibility to many drivers.
The arterial roads here are typically 50MPH... with intersections, business driveways and multiple lanes...
Perhaps you can convince the local road engineers to lower speeds to 35MPH. Until then... we have roads that are "trying to be something else."
Hey, add a curb and a few real potholes and that would be downtown Ottawa! (The street part, not that lack of buildings.)
sggoodri
The arterial roads here are typically 50MPH... with intersections, business driveways and multiple lanes...
Perhaps you can convince the local road engineers to lower speeds to 35MPH. Until then... we have roads that are "trying to be something else."
Here in Cary, lots of new roads are being constructed, and so there are many opportunities to build them properly from the start. The standard speed limits are 25, 25-35, 35, and 45 for local streets, collectors, minor thoroughfares, and major thoroughfares. Collectors and higher have wide outside lanes if curb and gutter are present, otherwise wide paved shoulders. Some curb-and-gutter collectors are getting bike lane striping but these are collecting garbage and causing other problems that I won't get into here.
Retrofits of existing roads are the most challenging issue. If there are lots of existing driveways and intersections, road widening projects that add nomally travel lanes tend to leave all the same junction hazards and add some new ones. But, we cannot seem to get any funding for road improvements that don't add lanes, so it's hard to convert nasty, crumbling 2-lane roads into nice wide-lane 2-lane roads. But some of our roads occasinally do get slower speed limits after widening, e.g. converting a rural 45mph road into a 4-lane 35 mph road with new schools and housing surrounding it.
When the state wants to upgrade a road for higher speed, there is always a political battle between adjacent landowners, who want to minimize loss of land and maximize driveway access, and the state, who wants lots of room and minimal junctions. If there are lots of junctions, then wide outside lanes are best; if there are few junctions, then wide paved shoulders transitioning to wide outside lanes at RTO lanes (which should be few and short) are preferable, or perhaps striped bike lanes could work.
Raleigh striped one new high-speed (posted 45, drivers go 50) thoroughfare with bike lanes; it wouldn't be too bad for cycling if they had ended the stripes before intersections without RTO lanes, and if they would sweep the debris, which is getting pretty bad. Here are pictures I took on the day the road opened:
I wonder if any are aware of "second generation traffic calming" which is in the experimental stage in Europe. On busy streets, there are NO stripes, NO signs, and NO attempts to separate bikes, cars and pedestrians.
From Salon.com (http://dir.salon.com/story/tech/feature/2004/05/20/traffic_design/index.html?pn=2):
"What the early woonerf principles realized," says Hamilton-Baillie, "was that there was a two-way interaction between people and traffic. It was a vicious or, rather, a virtuous circle: The busier the streets are, the safer they become. So once you drive people off the street, they become less safe."
"Contrast this approach with that of the United Kingdom and the United States, where education campaigns from the 1960s onward were based on maintaining a clear separation between the highway and the rest of the public realm. Children were trained to modify their behavior and, under pain of death, to stay out of the street. "."But as soon as you emphasize separation of functions, you have a more dangerous environment," says Hamilton-Baillie. "Because then the driver sees that he or she has priority. And the child who forgets for a moment and chases a ball across the street is a child in the wrong place
"When it comes to reconfiguring streets as community spaces, ground zero is once again Holland and Denmark, where planners are removing traffic lights in some towns and cities, as well as white divider lines, sidewalks and speed limits. Research has shown that fatality rates at busy intersections, where two or three people were being killed every year, dropped to zero when controls and boundaries were taken away.)"
genec
Raleigh striped one new high-speed (posted 45, drivers go 50) thoroughfare with bike lanes; it wouldn't be too bad for cycling if they had ended the stripes before intersections without RTO lanes, and if they would sweep the debris, which is getting pretty bad. Here are pictures I took on the day the road opened:
Roads like that are the norm here... for newest roads. It would be marked at 50MPH, without the center divider, and add another lane either way and make the BL narrower... it would have RTOL which are standard and the BL would be dashed for about 5 car lengths before the turn and would stop before the intersection. Motorists typically drive these at 55MPH or higher.
These roads are honestly quite nice to bike on when brand new... when the area they are serving has not pulled a lot of traffic onto the road and the pavement is unbroken and new. As soon as they fill up however, the fast moving lane changing traffic forgets to pay attention to anything along the side... and over time all that traffic turns the road into a cracked crazed shadow of it's former self... the lines fade and before too long, it is not a fun road anymore.
sggoodri
Roads like that are the norm here... for newest roads. It would be marked at 50MPH, without the center divider, and add another lane either way and make the BL narrower... it would have RTOL which are standard and the BL would be dashed for about 5 car lengths before the turn and would stop before the intersection. Motorists typically drive these at 55MPH or higher.
These roads are honestly quite nice to bike on when brand new... when the area they are serving has not pulled a lot of traffic onto the road and the pavement is unbroken and new. As soon as they fill up however, the fast moving lane changing traffic forgets to pay attention to anything along the side... and over time all that traffic turns the road into a cracked crazed shadow of it's former self... the lines fade and before too long, it is not a fun road anymore.
Cary has some influence over the design of thoroughfares through town, and has pushed to make them more friendly to pedestrians and cyclists. Once the engineers know that curb, gutter and sidewalks on both sides, pedestrian signals at traffic lights, and mixed use zoning at major intersections is involved, they seem to accept the idea of designing for more modest speeds, e.g. 45 mph posted limits rather than 50+. I don't recall seeing any roads in my area posted over 45 having curb, gutter, and sidewalks. There are some nasty 4+ lane 55 mph roads just outside Cary that were designed without these features but still attracted lots of commercial development and consequently lots of junction problems.
I've been trying to get the design speeds lowered for thoroughfares that pass through mixed use areas lowered to result in 35 mph posted limits rather than 45. The best strategy is not as clear as I'd like, since many of the features that contribute to faster speeds (better sight distances, wider pavement, access control via raised center medians) also correlate with lower collision rates for pedestrians and bicyclists. It's mostly the excessive number of lanes, excess use of right turn deceleration lanes, merge/slip lanes, and distant building setbacks that I think can be done away with without reducing safety.
genec
junction problems.
I've been trying to get the design speeds lowered for thoroughfares that pass through mixed use areas lowered to result in 35 mph posted limits rather than 45. The best strategy is not as clear as I'd like, since many of the features that contribute to faster speeds (better sight distances, wider pavement, access control via raised center medians) also correlate with lower collision rates for pedestrians and bicyclists. It's mostly the excessive number of lanes, excess use of right turn deceleration lanes, merge/slip lanes, and distant building setbacks that I think can be done away with without reducing safety.
Stay your course. High speed roads are for freeways... not surface streets.
invisiblehand
Cary has some influence over the design of thoroughfares through town, and has pushed to make them more friendly to pedestrians and cyclists. Once the engineers know that curb, gutter and sidewalks on both sides, pedestrian signals at traffic lights, and mixed use zoning at major intersections is involved, they seem to accept the idea of designing for more modest speeds, e.g. 45 mph posted limits rather than 50+. I don't recall seeing any roads in my area posted over 45 having curb, gutter, and sidewalks. There are some nasty 4+ lane 55 mph roads just outside Cary that were designed without these features but still attracted lots of commercial development and consequently lots of junction problems.
I've been trying to get the design speeds lowered for thoroughfares that pass through mixed use areas lowered to result in 35 mph posted limits rather than 45. The best strategy is not as clear as I'd like, since many of the features that contribute to faster speeds (better sight distances, wider pavement, access control via raised center medians) also correlate with lower collision rates for pedestrians and bicyclists. It's mostly the excessive number of lanes, excess use of right turn deceleration lanes, merge/slip lanes, and distant building setbacks that I think can be done away with without reducing safety.
Maybe you should push for red light cameras and the such. It would seem to be an automated way of controlling excessive speed.
Bekologist
has anyone solved the problem of wide lanes encouraging average cyclists into shoulder hugging and improper destination positioning at intersections?
has anyone solved the problem of intersection conflicts and improper destination positioning inherent with encouraging shoulder riding?
genec
has anyone solved the problem of wide lanes encouraging average cyclists into shoulder hugging and improper destination positioning at intersections?
has anyone solved the problem of intersection conflicts and improper destination positioning inherent with encouraging shoulder riding?
Nope, not that I am aware of... which is why WOL in the end offer nothing more than then same roads with a stripe.
The stripe on one hand delineates room for a cyclist, but then brings it's own politics... "get in the BL."
Bekologist
however, gene, bike lanes CAN provide better, more visible road position, and proper destination positioning at intersections. versus cyclists hugging curbs of wide lanes and far right at intersections....
patc
Nope, not that I am aware of... which is why WOL in the end offer nothing more than then same roads with a stripe.
The stripe on one hand delineates room for a cyclist, but then brings it's own politics... "get in the BL."
Do what I do, Gene, and skip the politics. Figure our what works for you, and the people around you - and use that. Look at what doesn't work and why - if it has a fix (education, re-striping, whatever) then try to have it fixed, otherwise try to get rid of it.
There is no point to wasting time on the politics or religions formed around issues. In the end, the decisions are made by elected officials (politics out of your control) based on the recomendations of engineers, consultants, and staff - often reasonable people willing to listen to individuals like you and me who care enough to bother giving input. Attending a few public info sessions each year and writing a few letters will accomplish more than thousands of Internet posts.
genec
Do what I do, Gene, and skip the politics. Figure our what works for you, and the people around you - and use that. Look at what doesn't work and why - if it has a fix (education, re-striping, whatever) then try to have it fixed, otherwise try to get rid of it.
There is no point to wasting time on the politics or religions formed around issues. In the end, the decisions are made by elected officials (politics out of your control) based on the recomendations of engineers, consultants, and staff - often reasonable people willing to listen to individuals like you and me who care enough to bother giving input. Attending a few public info sessions each year and writing a few letters will accomplish more than thousands of Internet posts.
I do just that. I do call engineers and demand better striping... and I attend local committee meetings regarding road improvement... and at least put in 2 cents for wider, sharable, roads.
CB HI
Steve, do your local roads look like this?
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20070716/images/met-fixit.jpg
Man, look at that really nice pavement in the left tire track. I wish we had some roads with nice pavement in half the lane like that!:D
John Forester
Do what I do, Gene, and skip the politics. Figure our what works for you, and the people around you - and use that. Look at what doesn't work and why - if it has a fix (education, re-striping, whatever) then try to have it fixed, otherwise try to get rid of it.
There is no point to wasting time on the politics or religions formed around issues. In the end, the decisions are made by elected officials (politics out of your control) based on the recomendations of engineers, consultants, and staff - often reasonable people willing to listen to individuals like you and me who care enough to bother giving input. Attending a few public info sessions each year and writing a few letters will accomplish more than thousands of Internet posts.
This is not an accurate statement. It is well known that people consider questions, create recommendations, and take decisions based on the degree to which these agree with the person's preconceptions concerning the subject at issue. If a person's view of cycling is wrong, then that person will act, insofar as possible, in ways that harm cyclists. That is why it is extremely important to create a view of cycling in which the cyclist's welfare is well-considered, so that the subsequent questions, recommendations, and decisions result in increasing the welfare of the individual cyclist.
patc
This is not an accurate statement. It is well known that people consider questions, create recommendations, and take decisions based on the degree to which these agree with the person's preconceptions concerning the subject at issue. If a person's view of cycling is wrong, then that person will act, insofar as possible, in ways that harm cyclists. That is why it is extremely important to create a view of cycling in which the cyclist's welfare is well-considered, so that the subsequent questions, recommendations, and decisions result in increasing the welfare of the individual cyclist.
Hey looky-here, folks, I have me a pet stalker.
Bekologist
...more like a pet delusional demagogue, patc.
Regarding wide outside lanes......
has anyone solved the problem of wide lanes encouraging average cyclists into shoulder hugging and improper destination positioning at intersections?
steve promotes shoulder riding on higher speed roads........has anyone solved the problem of intersection conflicts and improper destination positioning inherent with encouraging shoulder riding?
The Human Car
This is not an accurate statement. It is well known that people consider questions, create recommendations, and take decisions based on the degree to which these agree with the person's preconceptions concerning the subject at issue. If a person's view of cycling is wrong, then that person will act, insofar as possible, in ways that harm cyclists. That is why it is extremely important to create a view of cycling in which the cyclist's welfare is well-considered, so that the subsequent questions, recommendations, and decisions result in increasing the welfare of the individual cyclist.
See http://bikeforums.net/showthread.php?p=4870772 for my indirect response to this post.
sggoodri
...more like a pet delusional demagogue, patc.
Regarding wide outside lanes......
has anyone solved the problem of wide lanes encouraging average cyclists into shoulder hugging and improper destination positioning at intersections?
steve promotes shoulder riding on higher speed roads........has anyone solved the problem of intersection conflicts and improper destination positioning inherent with encouraging shoulder riding?
I don't promote shoulder riding; I promote provision of a wide paved shoulder on fast roads with few junctions. Cyclists can make up their own mind whether to use shoulders, and there is abundant support in the law for those cyclists who choose not to for any reason at all.
If the through lane is wide and the right turn lane is narrow, then the cyclist is encouraged to use the through lane.
Elsewhere, where the road is narrower, education is the only viable way of getting cyclists farther from the curb, since if there isn't room for a both a wide through lane and a right turn only lane, then there isn't enough room for a through lane, a bike lane, and a right turn only lane.
Most intersections do not have right turn only lanes, and so education of through cyclists to stay away from curbs at these intersections is important, but is made more difficult by DOTs marking the curbside area with bicycle symbols, as is the standard practice by area DOTs marking bicycle lanes.
It is possible to build very wide roads with bike lanes marked far out from the curb, with no parking allowed between the bike lane and the curb or with a 4' buffer space between parking and the right edge of the bike lane (in order to keep cyclists out of the door zone). But such a design would be much more expensive than a normal road with wide outside lanes, require more right of way with greater impact on surrounding properties, and increase the impervious surface area without that area being used for travel. This is why such a design is not used for new roads, and only appears on overbuilt roads that are redesigned to create a two-travel-lane cross section capable of handling the same traffic but with slower and/or safer dynamics.
Bekologist
steve,that's odd, they are restriping roads in my city without adding pavement with buffered bike lanes that are accomodated at intersections, that keep bicyclists away from the edge of the road,
without the 'it can't be done' defeatist, anti-accomodationalist attitude you bring to the table.
i still don't see what in a wide lane encourages bicyclists away from the curb.... what?? "If the through lane is wide and the right turn lane is narrow, then the cyclist is encouraged to use the through lane. " How??
joejack951
steve,that's odd, they are restriping roads in my city without adding pavement with buffered bike lanes that are accomodated at intersections, that keep bicyclists away from the edge of the road,
Did you read this statement by Steve: "This is why such a design is not used for new roads, and only appears on overbuilt roads that are redesigned to create a two-travel-lane cross section capable of handling the same traffic but with slower and/or safer dynamics."
It sounds like you have plenty of overbuilt roads in your area which is far from the norm based on my experience. Without all this paved space to begin with, doing what you have described is next to impossible.