General Cycling Discussion - Women in the TdF

I thought about posting this in Road Racing and Women's Cycling but thought I might get more opinions from both road racers and women here in General Discussion.

Why are there no women riding in the Tour de France, and why does no one think that this is strange ?

The sport of mountain biking at least has women's events, this is some better than no representation at all, but not by much.

I am primarily a runner. When running a marathon, women compete on the same course, at the same time, under the same conditions. Timekeeping is separate, as it is for age groups but other than that women compete the same as everyone else.

There have got to be women who are able to ride a bike well enough to rate a spot on some of those teams. The only thing that I can think of is that the UCI is dominated by Europeans who are slightly more backward in their thinking than other folks in the world. They would call this conservative or traditional.

Any other ideas ?

Dan

There used to be a Womens TDF. Don't know if there still is or not.

I think it's like shooting in the Olympics they have to do it in a way that there is no way to compare the women's scores to men's scores. European men aparently can stand being beaten by a woman. The last time women shot skeet in the Olympics was when a Korean woman one. Poof they need their own sport.

Joe

top female cyclists can only hope to be middle-of-the-pack cyclists in a male-dominated race.... it's just biological limitations, really.

compare it to golf.... the reason why there's an LPGA is because there's no way that most women could hit a ball with as much power as a man could... it would be an unfair competition

and how about the NBA... women have their own basketball league because they tend to be shorter and less powerful on the court...

i don't think it's sexist that women don't play in the NBA or in the PGA... I do believe that they should be free to do so if they like, but i do think they (as a WHOLE) would be at a disadvantage.

European men aparently can stand being beaten by a woman.

plenty of american man don't like it either, look at the uproar over anika sorenson (i'm sure i butchered her name sorry) when she played golf with the men.
i dont see any reason women shouldnt be included in any sport, theres plenty out there that would kick my butt in anything. of course thats not saying a hole lot :).
no reason they shouldnt compete in the tour, if it has to be a separate race, let it start 15 min after the men, or whatever.

They used to run the womens tour ahead of the men.

I think the biological reason (similar to other athletic events) would mean that there would be the necessity for two events anyway.

[i]Europeans who are slightly more backward in their thinking than other folks in the world.[/B]

What are you trying to say, that America is the most civilized country.

Don't look at the peeble in my eye, look at the boulder in yours.

The Grande Boucle Feminine is the Woemn's Tour de France. It is run for two weeks in August. Last year's winner was Joan Sommariba. There is also a women's Giro, the Giro d'Italia Femminile, a women's Amstel Gold, a Women's Fleche Wallonne. In fact, there is a whole calendar of pro women's events at the UCI's road calenar page (http://www.uci.ch/english/road/calendar/calendar_2003/index.htm). Few of these events get much coverage in the US, and get only a smattering of coverage in the European media. This is not much different from the way that women's sports are treated in general.

Originally posted by DanFromDetroit
Why are there no women riding in the Tour de France, and why does no one think that this is strange ?
<snip>
When running a marathon, women compete on the same course, at the same time, under the same conditions. Timekeeping is separate, as it is for age groups but other than that women compete the same as everyone else.


Coincidentally, I was just having this discussion with my wife last night, and yes, I do think it's strange and unfortunate. I also have heard vague reference to a women's TdF (and a Giro), but if the event does exist, we evidently aren't allowed to hear/see/know about it.

I would prefer to see an event similar to a marathon or triathlon where the women and men compete simultaneously, within the same race. I'm sure the argument against it would be, "tradition," or some similar crap. . .

Someone mentioned that European men would not stand losing to women - well, Euro triathletes and marathoners seem to have gotten past it, I'm sure cyclists can as well. A top athlete, regardless of gender, is an athlete with exceeding capability and I'm sure most will agree that there are some phenomenal women cyclists that are bound to beat both men and women. I fail to see why anyone would feel shame because of this fact.

Shaharidan, do you have any idea how complicated it is to put on the TdF? You have to set up logistics for 200 riders, their support staff, managers and whatnot, the media, you have to make sure that 2,100 miles of roads are adequately paved, policed, secured and closed to traffic in 125 mile chunks for 12 hours every day, you have to manage the media coverage and marketing... it's a huge undertaking! And you want to add another 200 riders, starting fifteen minutes later? That's insane! There is a women's tour. If Americans are ignorant of it, it's because we're willfully ignorant of women's sports in general. We are a backward, sexist people. I mean, when was the last time you watched a women's pro/elite soccer, football, basketball or rugby game. Women's sports (with the exception of tennis) are shamefully underfunded and under exposed, particularly in the good old USofA.

hmmm... you're totally right.

wow i really hit a nerve. i wasnt trying to tick anyone off, i was just saying i think women should be included. and if they aren't gonna race with the men then have a separate race. the 15 min later was just a suggestion :). i know the logistics are difficult, thats why having 2 on the same day might be easier than 2 completely separate races. it would also tend to get better coverage i think.

Several things.

First and foremost, these teams select their riders solely on merit and their ability to fill a needed role. They pay them for that; these are all professionals. If a woman could do the job, she'd be hired.

There are many instances where men's and women's road racing events are held on the same course, on the same day. The women ride shorter distances, but the average speeds for the top finishers are always higher for the men. This is also true in long distance endurance cycling, like RAAM.

While women can obviously be very fit, and a fit woman will beat a less fit man in an endurance competition (and they will all beat me!), there are biological differences -- strength-to-weight ratio, body fat percentage, etc. -- that would take a truly exceptional woman to overcome in competition with the elite male racers. And such a woman would probably end up playing tennis or some other sport where her gifts would be more likely to pay off.

It's not about chauvinism or political incorrectness.

Now, as for parallel events, there has been a "Tour de France Feminin," and there is a version (I forget what they call it now) that takes place in (I think) September. Not the same course -- fewer stages, less severe climbing -- and less public interest for all the obvious reasons.

RichC

I don't think a separate tour really is fair to the women and I don't think that physiology can be used as a justification for keeping women out of the TdF.

Using a marathon for comparison purposes, the men's world record (2:05:38) and women's world record (2:15:26) are separated by less than 10%. My guess is that cycling would not be that much different. I don't know this for a fact but I would bet there is more variablity from the "front of the pack" to the "back of the pack" among the men in the TdF than 10%. This tells me that women would not be stragglers at best.

I also think that any company sponsoring a team with at least one female member would gain a marketing advantage at least in the short term.

I also did not know there was a women's tour. I wish it received more attention. The men's event is pretty much ignored by the mass media. I am not suprised that the women's event is invisible. I would agree that women athletes do not get an equal opportunity in general (funding, programs, salaries, events, endorsements, etc).

Dan

My wife asked me the same thing last night and i didnt have an answer.I would rather watch the women anyway.

Originally posted by peloton
Few of these events get much coverage in the US, and get only a smattering of coverage in the European media. This is not much different from the way that women's sports are treated in general.

Curiously enough I've been know to tune into one of the "for-women" channels (Oxygen) because sometimes they give coverage to women's cycling. My wife has a chuckle over it.

There is a women's TdF and a women's Giro. They are different events.

The bottom line is that women pro cyclists, though amazing athletes, would be dropped on the first stage of the Tour de France. They simply cannot compete at the same level as men, and, quite often, would be eliminated en-masse for failing to make the time limit on longer stages.

The second stage of last year's Grande Boucle Feminine (hereafter GBF) had an average speed of about 24 mph. That was considered a fast stage. In contrast, the third stage of this year's (men's) TdF, considered a fast stage, averaged 30 mph. More tellingly, in last year's World Championship Time Trial, the men's winner, Satiago Botero did the 25 mile course in 48:08:45 (31 mph), while Zoulfia Zabirova completed the much shorter (14 mile) women's course in about 30 minutes (28 mph). You might not thing that 3 mph is a big deal, but any experienced racer knows that 10% extra speed comes at 50% extra effort. I doubt the women could have done the men's course at better than 25 mph average.

Rich Clark is right...There are no rules keeping a woman out of the Tour de France.

Teams are selected to compete in the Tour de France based on points they accumulate throughout the cycling year . The teams are professional and they may hire any rider they like. But the gap between men and women in cycling has been so large that they have never chosen a woman.

The real problem with women in the Tour is the lack of sponsorship dollars. Advertisers who live and die by market research probably don't see too much potential in this market right now for women. Personally, I think they're wrong. Women's sports are bound to genrally be smaller than men's because of general cultural issues. But small sports like women's cycling could develop a very vocal and motivated following.

Women do have a professional season and do their own versions of most of the classics such as The Tour de France Femenin as people have mentioned. It is seriously publicised by the French publicists but it will be a long time before it gets the attention here. Look at the media grubbings the men's tour have been lucky to get. The men have greater power to do greater distances at greater speeds and perhaps with greater recuperative powers, having larger muscle groups and greater lung capacity, but women's physiology allows for greater capacity to preform in long distance events without the danger of "bonking" like the men. Remember women still hold records over men in such long distance events as swimming (a woman holds the record for butterflying across the english channel....talk about needing incredible upper body strength and stamina as any swimmers here will contest!) However, women are catching up. I believe a premier female cyclist can probably finish in the middle pack ahead of some lower end male tour cyclists.

Originally posted by DanFromDetroit

Using a marathon for comparison purposes, the men's world record (2:05:38) and women's world record (2:15:26) are separated by less than 10%. My guess is that cycling would not be that much different.

Marathon is not a team sport. Road cycling is. And the TdF is not one kind of race, it's (at least) four.


I also think that any company sponsoring a team with at least one female member would gain a marketing advantage at least in the short term.

Look at how much scorn is being heaped on racers who entered in order to race in the first four (flat) stages and then withdrew as soon as the climing started. If a team included a woman who had to quit early, neither she nor the team would ever live it down, and it would be a long time before a second woman got the nod.

I would be interested if someone could suggest the name of even one woman racer whom they seriously believe is capable of completing the TdF, even in last place, and the basis for that belief. Has any women's stage race ever included a climb like L'Alpe d'Huez?

I don't see this as an "equal opportunity" issue. Opportunities for women to race at the maximum level of which they are capable exist in great number. There's a big difference between opportunity and marketability.

There are sports -- even endurance sports -- where the differences between genders tend to even out. Ultra-marathon, where endurance matters more than peak power, or climbing, which has a lot to do with strategic and visualization skills as well as strength.

Finally, there's the question that was raised when Annika Sorenstam competed in anPGA event a few weeks ago. Even if the top woman can compete with most men and turn in a creditable performance, why would she choose to do so when instead she could be dominating in the women's tour? Certainly Sorenstam's notoriety for that attempt helped her personally in terms of name recognition and marketability (she got to do a KFC commercial with Jason Alexander, wow!), but again, golf is not a team sport, and she didn't have to prove anything to anyone in order to compete.

RichC

The exlusion of women works this way: Only TT1 and TT2 (the latter rarely) are eligible for inclusion in the TdF. In order to be on one of those teams, you must hold a professional men's racing license recognized by the UCI. Consequently women cannot qualify for teams that qualify for the TdF.

BTW, and this is one of the things that bugs me, there is no such thing as a difference between genders, there is a difference between sexes. In fact, gender is the difference between sexes.

Originally posted by Rich Clark

I would be interested if someone could suggest the name of even one woman racer whom they seriously believe is capable of completing the TdF, even in last place, and the basis for that belief. Has any women's stage race ever included a climb like L'Alpe d'Huez?
RichC

If 79 women can climb Mount Everest, lots of women can climb L'Alpe d'Huez. Her time ,of course, will be much slower.

I have a feeling that the amount of attention given to female cycling events is in direct proportion to the amount of women who are interested in cycling.

While I think it would be nice if lotsa men were interested in watching women race; it would surely light a fire under the marketers if they found a real desire in women to be watching women race.

I just don't see a desire in my fellow women (sans this forum) to watch or compete in a bike race.

Women don't have time for the tour since they are too busy cooking and cleaning for the men. And don't forget downloading little ones. ;)

Damn Sam

It's a good thing you are married to an angle!

I'm curious to see how my daughter does in the marine corps marithon this year then I'll coment on her chances in a bucycle race.

Joe

Joe, good luck to your daughter.

And Sam, ever fascetious.:p (Probably why you're not in the Tour since you don't have wifey who does either of the first two eh?)

While I think it would be nice if lotsa men were interested in watching women race; it would surely light a fire under the marketers if they found a real desire in women to be watching women race.

The reason (any) women's sport doesn't rate very well or get sponsors is because a vast majority of women don't watch sport. They are usually too busy raising children and working while us men (those that aren't out riding) lay around the house all weekend watching sport. Men don't want to watch women's sport, even sports where the women are scantily clad like Netball, Beach Volleyball, and Surfing etc. men aren't interested, and neither are women.

Yes, there are women who watch sport but only about 5-10% (guess) where virtually EVERY male watches sport. When women start supporting their own sex in sport then it might get some further recognition, but as long as men do little to nothing around the house, women will be too busy to even think about spending an afternoon in front of the telly.

CHEERS.

Mark (in his flame-proof suit):D

Originally posted by Dutchy
Men don't want to watch women's sport, even sports where the women are scantily clad like Netball, Beach Volleyball, and Surfing etc. men aren't interested, and neither are women.

Speak for yourself! I happily watch women's cycling. :)

Originally posted by peloton
I mean, when was the last time you watched a women's pro/elite soccer, football, basketball or rugby game. I happily watch pro women's soccer every week on TV. (4pm Eastern every Saturday on PAX - nice plug, eh?) Yes, there's an elite pro women's soccer league in the US, currently in it's 3rd season: W*USA (http://www.wusa.com/)
There's also a top level men's pro league, and the level of play in both leagues is high.

I also happily watch women's tennis, plus a lot of men's soccer and men's tennis.

Of course women can't compete with men in sports, like cycling, that require strength and power. They can, and do, compete with women. Women's sports are every bit as interesting as men's sports. Whether there's a market for women's sports is the question. Women don't seem as interested in watching sports as men are, and men don't seem too interested in watching women's sports...but that may be changing.

Women soccer,i love it.So much better to watch then men.I watch women tennis,boxing.Women,gota love'm

Women are not excluded from the Tour de France due to any conspiracy by men. Cycling was a professional sport before lots of contemporary games were invented and before most of them became paid endeavours. Why? because no-one would race around France, over cobbled or unmade roads just for the challenge of it- and in 1903, who could afford to do such a thing, paying their own way?
Science and culture being what they were in the early 20th century, I'm sure few people believed women capable of cycling at speed for any distance when the Tour idea was devised. Nowadays there are a number of paid professional woman road racers, some of whom would definitely give some male professionals a run for their money in certain races which suited them. For example, I could imagine top female climbers beating heavy sprinter types in a hilly race like the Classique des Alpes. Problem is, no big rider would enter the CdA and at the present time, no female professional could generate the power to climb at a competitive speed with the men. The Tour de France requires such a high degree of all-round ability and such powers of recovery that, to date, no woman has seriously considered the prospect of riding; no team has even hinted at the possibility, even though these commercial enterprises usually would do anything for publicity........

So no-one in cycling thinks women should ride the Tour- and a parallel version exists for women to compete over parts of the same course. Some contributors to this forum think this is an inadequate response to some sexist plot. I would not disagree that cycling mirrors society in it's less than edifying attitudes to women's equality but the clear fact is that women would be uncompetitive. Cycling is one of dozens of sports which have responded to this situation by creating separate competitions for women. This is no more a reason for apology than it would be in the context of Track and Field, Rugby or Basketball. I see no theoretical reason why this state of affairs may not change in the future but no prospect of that happening any time soon. The 10% gap people are discussing here is indeed a chasm. That doesn't stop athletes like Jeannie Longo, Greta Waitz , Joanne Somarriba and Marion Jones being revered for their achievements. On the contrary, the present system allows people to win medals and fame in competition.
I have trained with a number of top female cyclists (Road and MTB). They are/were fine athletes, period- and represented their countries at world and olympic championships- but they were not in the Tour de France calibre, even the Tour Feminin......

In 1967, Beryl Burton became the only woman to that point holding an outright record in road time trialling, when she covered 277.25 miles in 12 hours. This British woman was a multiple world champion and is, to my mind, one of Britain's greatest ever sports figures. She earned the respect of male competitors and made female rivals wish she would race against men all the time LOL! She achieved enormous amounts in a deeply sexist era and without the training and nutritional advances of today.....oh, and she was an amateur, with parental responsibilities and a full-time, physically demanding job.....

Sure, women can beat men and maybe one day all sports will be arranged without the boundaries that presently exist....but I'm not holding my breath. Beryl Burton would never have entered the male Tour; she was so competitive, she wanted to win.

I would like to see a shorter tdf for women only.

Originally posted by shokhead
I would like to see a shorter tdf for women only.

I, for one, would also love to see a group of nearly 200 fit, lycra-clad women on bicycles screaming down the road. I would watch it for a variety of reasons!

Of course, we (United States) have more people that want to watch a taped episode of "shotgun journal" than want to watch the men's tour live. That, even given the fact that an American has won it 4 times in a row, and is the top contender to win it again. :(

Originally posted by bac
I, for one, would also love to see a group of nearly 200 fit, lycra-clad women on bicycles screaming down the road. I would watch it for a variety of reasons!


There's plenty of women's road racing every weekend all over the US (and the world). There are several events upcoming in various parts of Pennsylvania over the next couple of weeks, and all of them include women's races.

www.velonews.com is one site that keeps an up-to-date calendar with links to the individual race organizers' sites.

RichC

There are many women who compete in the El Tour de Tucson each year and post amazing times.
I respect women cyclists and watch women specific cycling when it's on.

I don't understand how a woman these days couldn't do just as well as Lance or Jan or whomever in an endurance race. I mean, there's this 6'1" Korean girl on the PGA Tour, and she does pretty well considering she's only 16. The best rider at my messengering outfit is a chick. So physicality isn't really a limiting factor, I don't think. With advances in nutrition and training and whatnot, I think a woman's ability to take pain and stress can make up for her lack of strength. The top ultra-marathoner at one point was a woman, so why not the top bike racer, or among the top cyclists? Riding isn't just about muscle, it's about the total package.
As for politics, I don't think so. Remember, in France, the majority of state level elected offices are held by women. I think if a woman could compete, she would. That fabled "She" just hasn't shown up yet. But I don't doubt she will.
So women, get out there and ride. I think chicks would look heaps better in that T-Mobile jersey anyway.
Either that, or women are too timid and don't think they could compete, and thus keep thinking they need their own little world. Which reminds me: Why isn't this is the women only forum?

I would like to see a shorter tdf for women only.


yes, and more close up motorcycle shots from behind as well. Maybe the half open jersey Lance sports would catch on with the women. And hopefully a brandy chastain moment at the finish.

In the U.S., at least, MOST people tend to only be interested in the "top level" of any kind of competition. I'd expect that's true in most places. If you ask most people why they're vastly more interested in (for example) the NBA than the WNBA, they would simply ask you what you think the result would be if the two played head-to-head. Slam dunk, case closed. There isn't any Vast Male Conspiracy against women's athletics.

I believe the last women's TDF (Grande Boucle Feminine) was held in 2003. It died from multiple causes, including lack of sponsorship and logistical difficulties.

More here: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2003/grandeboucle03

When I raced intensly in the late 80's and early 90's, I was a middle of the pack racer. Many women would pass me in mtn bike races. I loved it. I would get in with the group and race with them. Always polite and cheerful, they were a breath of fresh air in an otherwise uptight and sometimes nasty world of men beating up on men. In one 60+ mile road race, I hooked up with a young woman. She was slightly faster than me in the uphills and because of my larger mass, I was faster than her in the downhills. We pulled each other to the best finishes either of us had ever had. I finished third in my category and she won hers. Best road race I ever participated in.

What are you trying to say, that America is the most civilized country.

Don't look at the peeble in my eye, look at the boulder in yours.


Here we go!

What would happen in case they want to take a leak?

Here we go!

Did you happen to notice the date of the post you are responding too :)

What would happen in case they want to take a leak?
Terry has those seats with the cut out. I'm sure many of the riders would be riding those. Just insert a special bit of velcro in the chamois, and ta-da, problem solved.

yes, and more close up motorcycle shots from behind as well. Maybe the half open jersey Lance sports would catch on with the women. And hopefully a brandy chastain moment at the finish.

Where do I sign up to be a podium award man-toy? Me! Me! Me!

(Hey, if Hincapie can meet his wife that way, why can't I? :D)

I, for one, would also love to see a group of nearly 200 fit, lycra-clad women on bicycles screaming down the road. I would watch it for a variety of reasons!

Of course, we (United States) have more people that want to watch a taped episode of "shotgun journal" than want to watch the men's tour live. That, even given the fact that an American has won it 4 times in a row, and is the top contender to win it again. :(

I tend to agree... It would be fun to watch. I think the only reason women are not in the TDF right now is that there are few female riders that could qualify.

ain't there a chick that rides with lance?

There was an article in one of the bike magazines, Procycling I think, about an Italian lady who rode in the Tour a few times, and finished each time. She did it for the money, and for prized like a turkey, sausages, etc. Honestly! It was the Depression, after all. She was a big chunky gal, probably good and strong, and I think later in life worked for the circus.

There was an article in one of the bike magazines, Procycling I think, about an Italian lady who rode in the Tour a few times, and finished each time. She did it for the money, and for prizes like a turkey, sausages, etc. Honestly! It was the Depression, after all. She was a big chunky gal, probably good and strong, and I think later in life worked for the circus.

So good you have to post it twice???
I watched a program about a team, I think it was Mercury, that "apparently" had the points and the money to get into the Tour but was not invited due to there being "enough" American teams in it already and they wanted more French riders. I dont know how true this was, but if this was the case, it would be another hurdle to overcome to get another woman into the Tour.
I am neither for or against women being in the tour but I am a "traditionalist" for somethings. I do disagree with that one h0m0's response that men dont watch women sports even though they are scantily clad.......whatta poof!

I just thought it would be unfair for women when they have a nature called.