Lately when I've gone out, after tackling a difficult hill, I've had some pretty serious knee pain after my ride (The kind that makes you want to avoid stairs and sitting down/getting up. Above kneecap - ligaments/tendons, I think). I rest, and it's better in about a day, but if I don't let it get completely better, then I can do less and less without causing pain.
I've just taken 4 days off, knees feel good, and I want to go out tomorrow or Saturday, but I don't want to hurt again! So here's my question: Is there a way to avoid this?? Avoiding hills really isn't an option, unless I just do circles in my neighborhood, or put my bike in my car and go elsewhere to ride. I'm shifting down, down, down to the very lowest gear when I'm climbing, yet still pushing really hard. Also, I'm afraid if I stand up on my pedals, I'll break them! Do I need to just get off and walk up, until I weigh less? I want to ride, but I'm afraid if I try to tough it out, I'll end up with a serious injury.
keithm0
07-19-07, 09:34 AM
I'm definitely no expert, but there's a chance the pain is due to incorrect seat height. You should consider a visit to your local bike shop for a "fit check". They can easily (and probably freely) do a quick check to ensure the seat height, handlebar position, etc are where they should be.
Tom Stormcrowe
07-19-07, 09:36 AM
Lately when I've gone out, after tackling a difficult hill, I've had some pretty serious knee pain after my ride (The kind that makes you want to avoid stairs and sitting down/getting up. Above kneecap - ligaments/tendons, I think). I rest, and it's better in about a day, but if I don't let it get completely better, then I can do less and less without causing pain.
I've just taken 4 days off, knees feel good, and I want to go out tomorrow or Saturday, but I don't want to hurt again! So here's my question: Is there a way to avoid this?? Avoiding hills really isn't an option, unless I just do circles in my neighborhood, or put my bike in my car and go elsewhere to ride. I'm shifting down, down, down to the very lowest gear when I'm climbing, yet still pushing really hard. Also, I'm afraid if I stand up on my pedals, I'll break them! Do I need to just get off and walk up, until I weigh less? I want to ride, but I'm afraid if I try to tough it out, I'll end up with a serious injury.
Becky, don't be afraid to walk a hill if it's too much. I still do sometimes, for example! If you are developing that kind of knee pain, it's an issue!
Couple of questions:
Are you trying to mash up the hill in too high of a gear? That will cause this type of pain. Spin up in the lowest gear that allows you to maintain a good cadence, but not outrun your aerobic capacity. If you get to the point where you are down to walking pace, go ahead and walk it at that point and save your knees! ;)
How is the saddle height? A little too low or a little too high can also cause that kind of pain. If your pelvis rocks when you pedal, it's too high.
You can also take some Ibuprofen or Naproxen (Alieve) before you ride as a prophylactic, this helps me out (assuming you aren't sensitive to it!), but you really, really, really need to keep up your hydration if you do this to protect your kidneys! CRITICAL!
JoeMetal
07-19-07, 10:31 AM
+1 to everything everyone has said so far.
It might also be a good idea to make sure that when you are pedaling to keep the ball of your foot on the pedal and not the bridge of your foot. Way back when I was a kid I learned to pedal with my feet placed incorrectly and as I started riding again recently, I noticed a fair amount of knee pain if the pedal wasn't under the ball of my foot.
flip18436572
07-19-07, 10:46 AM
From my personal experience, it is from pedalling with too low of a cadence for the gear. If you live in a really hilly area, you might be able to talk to your LBS about a different set of gears for the rear. I don't know how easy or cheaply that can be done, but something to consider.
Caincando1
07-19-07, 11:11 AM
Becky,
You said that you are pedaling in the lowest gear, how is your bike geared? Is it a triple or double and what is the smallest chain ring in the front? Also do you have a comp. with speed and cadence? If so what speed and cadence are you at on the hills?
I'm really slow on the hills and I'm greatful that I have a triple so I can crawl up the hills at 6-7mph.
BeckyW
07-19-07, 11:37 AM
OK.. sounds like what my intuition has been telling me, but I've been ashamed to do, is that when my cadence drops too low and I'm mashing, even if i AM in my lowest gear, it's time to get off and walk. So maybe my "rides" will now be "wrides" (riding with some walking thrown in). :)
Keith (and others) - I think my seat's at the correct height - went to my LBS, and they thought it might be too high, but I think the under-seat shock absorber wasn't mashed down like it is when I'm actually riding. Legs are slightly bent when fully extended, hips aren't rocking back and forth. Lowering it seemed to make the problem worse, so I put it back where it was.
Tom- thanks, I'll do the ibuprofen thing. Good idea.
Joe - I've noticed myself doing that same thing, and am trying to break the habit of pedaling with my arches on the pedals, rather than the balls of my feet. Like you, was probably a habit I picked up as a kid. That could be contributing to the problem - thanks.
flip & Caincando - My bike is geared with 3 in front and 8 in back, but I don't know what the gear sizes are or how to tell. I've been pushing on, even when my cadence drops to <60rpm, about 5 mph. I don't think I'll get it re-geared now, but I may decide to in the future, and just walk for now. After all, the hills won't get any smaller, but I will! :)
A client of mine who's very athletic also had some advice for me, which I'll also be applying. I'd been cycling most days, and not walking nearly as much as I used to (down to 1-2 times/week). She suggested alternating the two, which sounds like good advice.
neilfein
07-19-07, 11:46 AM
Your seat should be high enough that your toes can touch the ground, btu not the flats of your feet. Do you have a picture of you on your bike?
Caincando1
07-19-07, 11:53 AM
Your seat should be high enough that your toes can touch the ground, btu not the flats of your feet. Do you have a picture of you on your bike?
That's going to depend a lot on the bike.
I like the method where you pedal and coast with your heel on the pedal and leg as far extened as possible. Your leg should be just about locked but not quite. For me seat height make a world of difference with knee pain, especially on the hills. I though I had it right, but lowed it anyway and sure enough the pain was gone. Now that I re-check after moving it, I'm right on.
Caincando1
07-19-07, 12:01 PM
Joe - I've noticed myself doing that same thing, and am trying to break the habit of pedaling with my arches on the pedals, rather than the balls of my feet. Like you, was probably a habit I picked up as a kid. That could be contributing to the problem - thanks.
Yes if you move your feet up to the arches you acutally shorten your legs which would in turn act like your seat is to high and hurt your knees. My money says your seat is a bit to high.
If you aren't ready for clipless pedal then get some cages on the pedals to prevent you from sliding you feet up. I would do the same thing becasue I wore tennis shoes that have soft soles and when the pedaling got hard, I'd slide my feet forward on the platfrom pedals. This is because the tennis shoes have such a soft bottom and don't give you any leverage when you pedal on the balls of your feet. Stiff soled riding shoes would help this out also.
Bill Kapaun
07-19-07, 12:31 PM
Something else that can exacerbate knee pain is crank arms that are too long.
The shorter the arm, the less range of motion the knee has to go through.
Bad news, is a shorter crank is harder to push. Maybe time for some lower gears?
What bike do you have? Maybe we can look up the gearing on the web.
OR count the # teeth on the smallest chain ring and largest cog. (You are using the smallest ring aren't you?)
coasting
07-19-07, 01:19 PM
I used to have knee pains when mashing uphill even though my seat was the correct height. I found that the knee pain went away when I raised the seat so i straighten the leg on the downstroke but this just meant it was too high so my hips rocked side to side when i was spinning on flats so i put the seat back to its correct height. I made a few changes to my pedal stroke that cured the problem that you could try.
1) I push my heals below the horizontal on its way down at the 3 o'clock position. This way you can straighten your leg at the bottom with your toes above your heal. This not only cured the knee pain but I got a lot more power into the down stroke
2) I slide a bit forward in my saddle when going uphill so I'm more over the pedal
3) I got clipless pedals which helps so much for the upstroke so there is less pressure on the other foot doing the downstroke. Even if you don't use clipless, try pulling your foot backwards when you get to the bottom of the downstroke.
Not sure if what I'm doing is correct but it took away the knee pain and gave me a stronger pedal stroke for uphills. See if these techniques help.
Good luck
Shubox
07-19-07, 02:12 PM
Knee pain is nothing to mess with though Becky and if it persists you should get it looked at I have a meniscus tear on my left knee and it hurts sometimes too.
Halthane
07-19-07, 03:07 PM
Becky You mentioned somewhere about being afraid to stand up on the pedals. Don't Be. And give climbing time, it isn't an easy thing, you will get better.
Paul
Pinyon
07-19-07, 03:22 PM
Knee pain should be taken pretty seriously. I suggest that you switch to clipped (the ones with the cage and straps) or clipless pedals (the ones with the cleats), and make sure that:
Your clips or bike shoe cleats are set up such that the ball of your foot is directly over the pedal axle before you do anything else.
Adust the seat frontwards and backwards on the seat post, such that when your foot is at the 3-o-clock position, your knee is directly over the ball of your foot/pedal axle. You can check this by tying an object to a string that you drop down from the center of your knee while holding the string. The object on the string should slide down to touch your foot directly over the ball of your foot and/or the pedal axle. THIS MEASUREMENT IS VERY IMPORTANT if you are having knee problems.
Next adjust your saddle hight so that you can barely stand with your heel on the pedal at 6-o-clock. Your butt should still barely touch the seat.
That will get you into the basic ball-park with seat position. You will probably want to do little tweaks to the seat position after that over the coming weeks, based on your personal preferences (think 1/4 inch or 6.4 mm increments).
I also agree that you should spin more quickly. Clipless pedals will also allow you to pull up on the pedals, which can also really help to save your knees on big climbs. Have fun out there!
Pupsocket
07-19-07, 03:31 PM
I have a long, moderate hill to climb to get back home from most rides. When I started out earlier this season, I was barely able to make it in my lowest gear, which is less than 1:1! After about 50 miles, I noticed that I can climb it in 3rd or 4th, or power my way up if I feel like punishing myself.
Once you've sorted out any seat/shoe/pedal issues, watch for a hill you can climb all the way in lowest gear. As you ride it again and again, hopefully you'll notice it's easier or that you can even do it in a higher gear. Alternatively, if your hill requires you to walk partway up, see if you can get further each time - turn your wralks into wrides. :)
chunkyd
07-19-07, 03:40 PM
i was talking to Tom and he mentioned a good point, That as you lose weight and inches you'll have to adjust your riding position also. seeing that its a slow process it can creep up on you..
Chris
solveg
07-19-07, 05:58 PM
Your seat should be high enough that your toes can touch the ground, btu not the flats of your feet. Do you have a picture of you on your bike?
?????? I have never* heard this. There's no way my feet would touch the ground if I'm on the seat, and my bike fits great!
solveg
07-19-07, 06:03 PM
Lately when I've gone out, after tackling a difficult hill, I've had some pretty serious knee pain after my ride (The kind that makes you want to avoid stairs and sitting down/getting up. Above kneecap - ligaments/tendons, I think). I rest, and it's better in about a day, but if I don't let it get completely better, then I can do less and less without causing pain.
I've just taken 4 days off, knees feel good, and I want to go out tomorrow or Saturday, but I don't want to hurt again! So here's my question: Is there a way to avoid this?? Avoiding hills really isn't an option, unless I just do circles in my neighborhood, or put my bike in my car and go elsewhere to ride. I'm shifting down, down, down to the very lowest gear when I'm climbing, yet still pushing really hard. Also, I'm afraid if I stand up on my pedals, I'll break them! Do I need to just get off and walk up, until I weigh less? I want to ride, but I'm afraid if I try to tough it out, I'll end up with a serious injury.
Becky, just walk up. Seriously. I have a triple gear, and I still go to my lowest sometimes. If I didn't have a triple, I would proudly* walk up 1/3 of the hills I run into. It's nothing to be ashamed of. You are building muscle, and until you have them you either have to have triple gears or walk. I shift down the minute* I feel pressure in my knees. You should be spinning without any pain at all. When I run out of gears, I walk.
Toe clips take some getting used to, but they help a lot. You can relax your feet more and you'll find you use your muscles more efficiently. But you'll still have to walk for quite a while. Don't push it or hammer it, especially since you are already having knee pains. This is not a contest... you're preparing yourself for a lifetime of cycling.
BeckyW
07-19-07, 06:42 PM
Thanks for all the supportive comments! I just went out to do a little adjusting based on what's been said here. It seems my seat is about the right HEIGHT - putting my heels on the pedals and standing up just lifts me off the seat - but either it's too far forward, or I've been sitting too far forward in it, based on the knees over the balls of the feet measurement. My knees were well in front of my toes @ 3:00. Unfortunately, it's all the way back on the rails already. But I tried sitting further back, and suddenly EVERYTHING was better. Knees, arms, butt, wrists, hands... everything! Whoever said I seemed "crammed into the cockpit" in response to my earlier post about wrist/finger pain was exactly right. So I'll probably still be walking up hills for a while (thanks for making me feel better about that - most of the advice I've gotten elsewhere was "Don't walk until you absolutely have to - just push a little harder and further up each time."), but at least I have a significant improvement and I can ride!
If only I hadn't already had the bike for 2 months... can't exactly take it back now. saying it's too small. I think I can make do for now just sitting further back - it's actually quite comfortable, but I don't know if it'll work for longer distances. Next time - possibly in the near future - I'll know better and get measured for a bike, rather than assuming a regular women's bike will fit me, since I'm much taller than average! (5'11")
Edit - oh, and when I scooted back, my feet went on the pedals in the correct place, too. Balls of feet, not arches. Which made the "heels down on the downstroke" thing easier... *sigh of relief*
2manybikes
07-19-07, 06:42 PM
?????? I have never* heard this. There's no way my feet would touch the ground if I'm on the seat, and my bike fits great!
That's because it's wrong.
jerryt
07-19-07, 07:09 PM
But I tried sitting further back, and suddenly EVERYTHING was better.
Becky it seems to me that you could change to a seat post that has a 1"-3"set-back arm. (I'm new to biking and don't know the technical term for this). Or maybe there is an adjustment on the seat clamp.
BeckyW
07-19-07, 07:20 PM
Becky it seems to me that you could change to a seat post that has a 1"-3"set-back arm. (I'm new to biking and don't know the technical term for this). Or maybe there is an adjustment on the seat clamp.
ooooh I didn't know such a thing existed! Will have to check that out! :D
The Historian
07-19-07, 07:27 PM
?????? I have never* heard this. There's no way my feet would touch the ground if I'm on the seat, and my bike fits great!
Neil's advice is fine (pun intended), depending on the type of bike and the experience of the rider. My Navigator, for instance, has the saddle set so I can barely touch the ground. A road bike, such as the one I'm test-riding tomorrow, will probably have my feet completely off the ground.
jubal117
07-19-07, 07:30 PM
I was having the same problem with my knees a couple weeks ago. It turned out it was the bike. I went to the LBS that was recommended to me by a couple of people. I wasn't helped very well, but I didn't know. They sold me a bike two sizes too small. I have since given that bike to my new LBS to try and sell, and have gone back to riding my 10 year old mountain bike. I no longer have any knee pain, and I'm faster on my commute by over 3 miles an hour. Hopefully I will get 300 or so for my too small bike so I can buy a new one I have my eye on.
The Historian
07-19-07, 07:31 PM
Keith (and others) - I think my seat's at the correct height - went to my LBS, and they thought it might be too high, but I think the under-seat shock absorber wasn't mashed down like it is when I'm actually riding.
Ditch the suspension seatpost. Now. It's the best advice I ever got, and I suffered for a couple months before doing it. Avoid my mistake.
BeckyW
07-19-07, 07:44 PM
solveg suggested I post a pic of my bike - this was from when I first got it. Seat is up about 4" now, and handlebars are up about 2". The more I think about it, the more I think this one may be up for sale before summer ends, if the seat extension thing Jerry mentioned doesn't work out. And I may just try the OTHER LBS in my town...
solveg suggested I post a pic of my bike - this was from when I first got it. Seat is up about 4" now, and handlebars are up about 2". The more I think about it, the more I think this one may be up for sale before summer ends, if the seat extension thing Jerry mentioned doesn't work out. And I may just try the OTHER LBS in my town...
Have you tired adjusting your stem forward and down. This will stretch you out a little and give you a little more room in the cockpit. I did this on my navigator and I should have done it 200 miles ago. You will be able to get a little more leverage to pedal when you get you body leaned over a little. It honestly made a big difference by dropping my stem almost all the way forward. I gained a full mph or better due to the better riding position.
JoeMetal
07-19-07, 08:02 PM
+1 to walking up hills if you have to. At first I was a little too proud to try to walk up hills. Then I started feeling my heart going about a thousand beats a minute on the really big hills. At that point I decided that who cares if people in cars see me walking up a hill? They're driving. What do they know? Ha ha ha, look at the fat kid walk up the hill. But you know what? I can guarantee I'm healthier than Mr. SUV because I try my hardest to do all that my body can do and I try my hardest every day. I'm at the point now where I can go absolutely anywhere in my town without using my car. Can Mr. SUV? I didn't think so. :)
Bill Kapaun
07-19-07, 09:47 PM
Becky-
You might try a couple of these things.
1. Make sure your tires are pumped up to the max pressure printed on the sidewall. This will resuce the rolling resistance to "some" degree.
2. pick each end of the bike up and spin the tire. Make sure the wheel isn't rubbing the brake at all, and tends to keep spinning quite a few revolutions. I discovered a "snug" wheel bearing on my bike the other day that was slowing me down 1 MPH!
Technique- If you are up & down & up &..., rest on the downhills. You need "recovery time" after pedaling uphill. Don't be in a hurry to get to the next uphill.
You are going to the smallest chain ring when going up, aren't you???
solveg
07-19-07, 10:05 PM
Doesn't her bike look like she'd be pedaling in almost a vertical position? Is it just the angle of the photo?
Well, took it out for a 2-mile easy ride this morning - almost the same route that I couldn't handle last week when my knee started hurting again. And.... *drum roll* no pain! It's frustrating, though, to be back where I started 2 months ago, distance-wise. I was actually a little slower than usual today - not sure if it's because of the new position, using new muscles, or just from keeping my cadence faster and easier.
If just sitting further back proves uncomfortable over time, I'll probably get an offset seatpost - thanks for the link, Jerry. Now I know what to ask for/look for.
Also tilted my handlebars further forward. I'm not sure if I like that or not, but I'll give it a few rides to get used to it. I did notice that sitting further back, and with the handlebars further forward, I feel like I can support my torso better by tightening up my stomach muscles, which is good. (Imagine me at the side of a MUP, multi-tool in hand, trying to fine-tune the handlebar height and angle, pulling it out too far, and having the whole front of the bike come apart! Fortunately it went back together ok. lol)
And.. if all this doesn't work, I'll sell the bike and get properly fitted for a new one!
Thanks again for all the advice and encouragement.
solveg
07-20-07, 12:55 PM
Check the tires before every ride...
Yesterday I had a tough ride. I had checked the tires with a little pressure gizmo, and it said they were fine. Today I checked them with my pump, and they were 60 instead of 80! I filled them up, had a fine ride, and did 23***** miles.
Yes, Clydes and Clydettes. I*, Me*, did 23 miles.
Tom Stormcrowe
07-20-07, 01:04 PM
Check the tires before every ride...
Yesterday I had a tough ride. I had checked the tires with a little pressure gizmo, and it said they were fine. Today I checked them with my pump, and they were 60 instead of 80! I filled them up, had a fine ride, and did 23***** miles.
Yes, Clydes and Clydettes. I*, Me*, did 23 miles.
I told you you'd be doing it before you noticed!:p Outstanding job!:beer:
fzrdave
07-20-07, 01:48 PM
+1 to ditching the suspension seatpost. You can never accurately adjust the seat height with those. The general rule of thumb is that if the knee pain you’re experiencing is above your knee cap, then your seat is too high (you're exposing your knee to hyper-extension). If the pain is below the knee cap, then you are over-stressing your knee and your seat is likely too low. Proper seat height adjustment should go a long ways towards remedying your knee problems and it’ll give you a lot more power for the uphills.