So far we have had one uphill finish of note that wasn't particulary steep and nobody gained a ton of time on their rivals except a lone breakaway artist who can't time trial, why would one attack?
Their have also been two mountain stages with a decent amount of time for any attackers to get caught back on the descent, why would one attack?
I think on two of the three mountain stages there have been teammates of Levi ahead in breakaways, should he pull everybody up to his teammates (see T-Mobile for answers to that question, they seem to have that in their playbook), why would one attack?
Tell me which stage Lance would have attacked and gained time on his rivals given this year's route?
This weekend will be the answer to all of the attack attack attack crowd.
Personally I think it will be Valverde doing it, but give Levi a break, so far all he has done is ride smartly and within himself.
Can't wait until Sunday when I belive the tour will be decided.
aham23
07-19-07, 02:06 PM
"Levi doesn't attack"
So far we have had one uphill finish of note that wasn't particulary steep and nobody gained a ton of time on their rivals except a lone breakaway artist who can't time trial, why would one attack?
Their have also been two mountain stages with a decent amount of time for any attackers to get caught back on the descent, why would one attack?
I think on two of the three mountain stages there have been teammates of Levi ahead in breakaways, should he pull everybody up to his teammates (see T-Mobile for answers to that question, they seem to have that in their playbook), why would one attack?
Tell me which stage Lance would have attacked and gained time on his rivals given this year's route?
This weekend will be the answer to all of the attack attack attack crowd.
Personally I think it will be Valverde doing it, but give Levi a break, so far all he has done is ride smartly and within himself.
Can't wait until Sunday when I belive the tour will be decided.
this is your opinion. maybe he was hurting too much to ride any other way. the TT on saturday will answer where Levi is at and how Levi will do. if he stinks it up in the TT nothing else will matter. later.
SunSwingsLow
07-19-07, 05:54 PM
As was mentioned in another thread we are all spoiled from LA putting attacks on people and making them stick to the finish. Putting 10,20 60 or 120 into other riders on different stages.
Im adopting a wait and see approach...13,14 and 15 we will see.
SaintAndrew
07-19-07, 05:59 PM
the onyl problem with the TS' viewpoint is that levi has been losing time in the mountains to people who generally time trial either at his level or better. sure chasing down every attack from any random climber os one thing, but losing time to the other GC men is another.
El Diablo Rojo
07-19-07, 06:04 PM
Contador will finish higher on GC than Levi. If Disco had thought Levi could win the Tour they would have never signed Basso and all his baggage.
roadgator
07-19-07, 06:34 PM
Contador will finish higher on GC than Levi. If Disco had thought Levi could win the Tour they would have never signed Basso and all his baggage.
Very ture.
Bruneel (sp?) is clearly not putting all his eggs in the Levi basket the way Popovich and Contador were let go on the climbs. "Domestiques" attacking in front of the "leader" never happened (until GC was buttoned up) under his direction with LA.
Im sure Discover is still hoping for a good result from Levi, but snagging stage wins with some of the other guys is probably of equal importance now with sponsorship in jeopardy.
reef58
07-19-07, 06:37 PM
Incorrect, or so I think
Richard
Contador will finish higher on GC than Levi. If Disco had thought Levi could win the Tour they would have never signed Basso and all his baggage.
badfishgood
07-19-07, 07:41 PM
I think Levi is in great position. He's up a few minutes on Vinokourov and less than two minutes behind Valverde and Mayo.
Wait until the Pyrennes...
Lance wasn't always in yellow and attacking... Why would Levi?
P.S. He's not my favorite to win, but I could see him doing it.
ed073
07-19-07, 09:05 PM
"Levi doesn't attack"
Neither does Cadel.
You don't win the Tour de France following wheels, lads.
SaintAndrew
07-19-07, 09:23 PM
I think Levi is in great position. He's up a few minutes on Vinokourov and less than two minutes behind Valverde and Mayo.
Wait until the Pyrennes...
Lance wasn't always in yellow and attacking... Why would Levi?
.because lance generally beat everyone in the mountains and in the ITT's, and could count on gaining time in the TTT's as well. plus, it's not like pharmstrong would give away the jersey to a strong GC contender. how many times did he pass it to ullrich?? or beloki?? forget about the actual jersey, my point is that you don't want higher caliber (or even just close) GC riders than you ahead in time at any point of the race.
skinny
07-19-07, 09:23 PM
Neither does Cadel.
You don't win the Tour de France following wheels, lads.Tell that to Joop Zoetemelk. Excellent time trialer, won 2 out of 4 ITTs in the 1980 TDF, never got on the podium on a mountain stage, and won because of attrition(Hinault injured) and excellent time trialing. It happens.
GGDub
07-19-07, 10:08 PM
because lance generally beat everyone in the mountains and in the ITT's, and could count on gaining time in the TTT's as well. plus, it's not like pharmstrong would give away the jersey to a strong GC contender. how many times did he pass it to ullrich?? or beloki?? forget about the actual jersey, my point is that you don't want higher caliber (or even just close) GC riders than you ahead in time at any point of the race.
ahhh, this is the point I so inarticulately was trying to make in the other thread! Thank you, for putting it down in a way that is much more clear than I ever could. I don't believe Levi has to attack the entire field to win or podium but he sure would have to do it against his main rivals, Kloden, Evans, Valverde, Mayo and gasp, Rasmussen. Chances are better than good that Levi puts good time into Mayo and Rasmussen. But if he's saving up do just that he could snooker himself if he has a crappy day or a mechanical. The others could easily put time into him on the TT's, while all of them could put time into him in the Pyrenees.
Bottom line is what SA said, you never give time to your main rivals, unless what they are doing is seriously foolish (i.e. going on a long solo breakaway) and none of his rivals has done something stupid.
If you want an example of how holding back could be a bad strategy, just think of how things could really have gone wrong for LA had he not been lucky (emphasis on lucky) to dodge a sprawling Beloki or taco a wheel when he CXed while they were trying to chase down an attacking Vino on a downhill.
erader
07-19-07, 10:42 PM
Contador will finish higher on GC than Levi. If Disco had thought Levi could win the Tour they would have never signed Basso and all his baggage.
at least disco made sure levi wouldn't be racing against basso.
and basso would have been the heavy favorite to win this race....sorta like vinokourev was a couple of days ago :eek:.
ed rader
Angus
07-19-07, 11:23 PM
Did anyone see George Hincapie's interview after the stage today? He was asked about Discovery's chances to win the GC and all he talked about was Contador. The interviewer had to mention Levi, and then George sorta mumbled something politcally correct about Levi riding well, too. I thought that spoke volumes about the thinking on the Disco team.
vic32amg
07-19-07, 11:47 PM
Neither does Cadel.
You don't win the Tour de France following wheels, lads.
Yeah Cadel didn't attack a couple days ago only to have contrador counter and blow up the race.. but yeah cadel doesn't attack..:rolleyes:
dhut
07-21-07, 09:28 PM
Based on todays results, and Hincappies prior comments, I think Levi is done. The team will back Contadore. The only way Levi had a chance of remaining the leader of Disco was to have a good time trial today. Contadore beat him in the time trial, and is a better climber. Bruyneel would be crazy to continue supporting Levi as the team leader. If Disco has any chance at winning the tour, they need to begin concentrating on supporting Contadore and cut the dead weight.
smoke
07-21-07, 09:50 PM
Based on todays results, and Hincappies prior comments, I think Levi is done. The team will back Contadore. The only way Levi had a chance of remaining the leader of Disco was to have a good time trial today. Contadore beat him in the time trial, and is a better climber. Bruyneel would be crazy to continue supporting Levi as the team leader. If Disco has any chance at winning the tour, they need to begin concentrating on supporting Contadore and cut the dead weight.
i've gotta agree with some of this. i think disco has to back contador. levi only beat the chicken in today's TT by 16 seconds. i'm just not a levi believer. i never see any 'fight' in him. and now we're entering a phase that is contador's strength. the only thing against contador is that he's young and learning. may be too much to put on him. but i'll tell ya - i've never been so unimpressed with someone in fifth place as i am with levi. i don't dislike him, i just don't see a 'spark' there
erader
07-21-07, 10:56 PM
Did anyone see George Hincapie's interview after the stage today? He was asked about Discovery's chances to win the GC and all he talked about was Contador. The interviewer had to mention Levi, and then George sorta mumbled something politcally correct about Levi riding well, too. I thought that spoke volumes about the thinking on the Disco team.
i saw the interview and while george mentioned contador first he also mentioned levi. your recollection is either incorrect or else we saw different interviews :eek:.
ed rader
SpeedNut
07-21-07, 11:22 PM
When have you ever seen Levi pissed off enough to fight/attack in the tour?
Exactly. No win for LL until he displays a real desire to do so.
maalea
07-21-07, 11:30 PM
Everyone wants to see attacks. They are turning points. They are exciting. Sometimes they succede but if you are not heads above your rivals you need to be judicious with your attacks.
"Lick your rival's plate clean before starting on your own."
marqueemoon
07-22-07, 12:00 AM
I don't think Levi is done yet. Contador is pretty much the ideal softener in the mountain stages. So is Popo for that matter. If their attacks crash and burn they will exhaust some of Levi's rivals in the process too. I would be surprised if they're going to be under strict orders to wait for him at this point though.
Gee3
07-22-07, 01:03 AM
but i'll tell ya - i've never been so unimpressed with someone in fifth place as i am with levi. i don't dislike him, i just don't see a 'spark' there
I feel the same way at times. I really want to pull for him but he just doesn't seem to have that fight in him. Maybe we are spoiled by LA... And I'm really impresseed with Contador... even if he doesn't get the yellow I'm glad he's got the white. People will stand up and notice this guy more here on out (if they haven't already by his performances earlier in the year). But being the young/new guy can be to his advantage. The big guys can underestimate him and he may be able to sneak in some good rides, maybe even a stage win in the mountains. He's certainly someone to watch for the next few years!
But back to Levi... I will say that for someone that doesn't look to be doing much he's certainly moving up in the GC. I guess we'll have to wait and see...
dhut
07-22-07, 07:01 AM
Every day Vino gets stronger, and Contadore is a better climber and a better TT. Just cant see him making the Podium let alone winning.
As a side note, I was happy to see Rasmussens time trial results. I am no fan, but it was good to see him overcome that demon.
roadgator
07-22-07, 12:10 PM
I don't think Levi is done yet. Contador is pretty much the ideal softener in the mountain stages. So is Popo for that matter.
I think this should be reversed. In the TT and on todays stage, contador showed he has the goods to win it, more so than Levi. Levi himself said he cant accelerate in the mountains like Contador, and that is SO important to making time gaps on climbs. Plus, Contador had a better TT than Levi too.
If Disco flipped its "leadership" and had Popo and then Levi set a ridiculous pace up the climbs, Contador could launch a final attack strong enough to drop Rasmussen and everyone else.
Levi isnt going to win it (but could be on the podium), so disco should use him to win with Contador.
maddyfish
07-22-07, 12:16 PM
Agree -I see no "spark" or "fight" from Levi, mnaybe that's just who he is. He is moving up in the standings, 4th as of now, but still looing time.
Maybe his plan is to let everybody else make mistakes while he rides a safe Tour.
NotAsFat
07-22-07, 12:26 PM
Every day Vino gets stronger, and Contadore is a better climber and a better TT. Just cant see him making the Podium let alone winning.
As a side note, I was happy to see Rasmussens time trial results. I am no fan, but it was good to see him overcome that demon.Not today.
bvfrompc
07-22-07, 02:47 PM
You don't win the Tour de France following wheels, lads.
How's that attacking thing working for Mayo and Valverde?
They were attacking on stages that they weren't going to seperate themselves from the main contendors, its not gutsy, its just dumb.
Today, now today was a day to attack.
bvfrompc
07-22-07, 02:48 PM
Not today.
+1
marqueemoon
07-22-07, 04:42 PM
I think this should be reversed. In the TT and on todays stage, contador showed he has the goods to win it, more so than Levi. Levi himself said he cant accelerate in the mountains like Contador, and that is SO important to making time gaps on climbs. Plus, Contador had a better TT than Levi too.
If Disco flipped its "leadership" and had Popo and then Levi set a ridiculous pace up the climbs, Contador could launch a final attack strong enough to drop Rasmussen and everyone else.
Levi isnt going to win it (but could be on the podium), so disco should use him to win with Contador.
Well that's the thing. Levi really doesn't have much to offer as a domestique to Contador. Discovery is not really in a position to have to choose right now. That will probably happen if and when when one of these guys has a bad day.
Contador's performance today put the hurt on Evans and Valverde while Levi cruised in 4th for the stage and 4th on GC. Not bad at all considering. As much as I agree with a lot of you that Levi is generally pretty dull to watch, he is looking pretty solid at the moment.
roadgator
07-22-07, 05:24 PM
On the contrary, I think Levi would be a great domestique. He could set a very fast tempo to soften the field and then Contador could accelerate away.
No one would expect it, and if played properly it could even look like like Levi was attacking. It almost happened today, but Levi ended up on the front for all of 15 seconds (then dropped back as usual to save energy) after Popovich pulled off instead burning himself out for the few minutes it would take to really make it work.
Levi alone could probably whittle the field down to just a few of men if he wasn't concerned about his own placing. Which would just mean all the more damage Contador could inflict coming off his wheel.
But you are right in that either of them could have a bad day. Both of them getting into the select group on the last climbs and Levi getting on the front before Contador attacks is probably all they can really plan for.
maalea
07-22-07, 09:49 PM
Maybe his plan is to let everybody else make mistakes while he rides a safe Tour.
Levi said that prior to today's stage. He more or less said that he didn't know who would crack but it wouldn't be him.
gear
07-23-07, 03:59 AM
I don't think Levi is done yet. Contador is pretty much the ideal softener in the mountain stages. So is Popo for that matter. If their attacks crash and burn they will exhaust some of Levi's rivals in the process too. I would be surprised if they're going to be under strict orders to wait for him at this point though.
I agree, I think Discovery is using Contador as bait to make other rider's crack chasing him. I think if this happens Levi could take the lead but wouldn't it be kind of sad to see someone who didn't win a stage win the tour.
merlinextraligh
07-23-07, 06:50 AM
I think Levi has ridden a fantastic TDF. He's been consistent, and keeps moving up on GC. He's highly likely to finish top 5, good chance to be on the podium, and still a very slight outside chance to win.
Levi is getting the most out of his abilities. Riding his own tempo in the mountains, he's gradually picked up time on most of his rivals. And his TT, while weak compared to Vino's time, still gained time on most of the GC top ten.
He doesn't have the massive acceleration, ride away from everyone ability, and he knows it would be foolish to try.
But by staying within himself, and riding his tempo, he's gradually doing quite well in a war of attrition.
The people that are crtical of Levi are simply expecting things from him that he doesn't have.
rustycool7
07-23-07, 01:28 PM
Levi is a muture rider who knows his abilities and is not be foolish enough to ride outside them. That said, I expect he will throw everything he has at the Col d' Aubique. If you read his face he always looks calm and collected, even as Rasmussen goes up the road. If he can ride away from (not attack) Evans on Wednesday He knows he has a chance in a longer ITT with less climbing. This strategy may come up short but I respect him for using all wis grit, determination, intelligence, and experience to try and win.
Bon Tour
GV27
07-23-07, 04:08 PM
Agree -I see no "spark" or "fight" from Levi, mnaybe that's just who he is. He is moving up in the standings, 4th as of now, but still looing time.
Maybe his plan is to let everybody else make mistakes while he rides a safe Tour.
That's just his riding style. He rode exactly the same way when he blew everyone away on Mt. Ventoux in the Dauphine last year. Oh wait - that must have been some other American riding for Gerolsteiner; Levi can't climb.....:rolleyes: