Electric Bikes - What is the essence of great ebike motor?

Staror, Rotor including magnets, and Controller.In each of these the things to be considerd is size, design, quality materials and parts, quality manufacturing, efficiency and cost. Profit is all the chineese ebike motor makers are concerned with.This is why the us ebike market is filled with junk and people here are still promoting it because it's available and they want to profit on it as well. Too bad ! If you want somthing better at a good price it's not going to happen anytime soon unless there is a definate market for high priced lithium ebikes and the unefficient hub motors fade out.They will in time.

I love my hub motor, looks nice, works great, I have no troubles with it, over 5000 kms and counting. Seems to be entirly maintenance free.

4100km in 5 months so far :)

A great ebike motor is one that doesn't turn into a smoking pile of junk like Ken Trough's.

I love my hub motor, looks nice, works great, I have no troubles with it, over 5000 kms and counting. Seems to be entirly maintenance free. After a year or two give us your TRUE maintenance report and all your ebike costs.

4100km in 5 months so far :)

A great ebike motor is one that doesn't turn into a smoking pile of junk like Ken Trough's.Who is Ken ? Is it that 300 lb ex forum owner
who smoked every hub motor bike he sat on?

A great ebike motor is one that anyone can buy off the shelf.

A great ebike motor is one that anyone can buy off the shelf.
Really? LOL

Really? LOL

Why don't you build a few drivetrains for people to independantly test? I'm sure there are people out there that will pay a reasonable price if the product lives up to your hype.

Or you could stick to riding around with a video camera and blabbing numbers out of thin air to the mic.

Why don't you build a few drivetrains for people to independantly test? I'm sure there are people out there that will pay a reasonable price if the product lives up to your hype.

Or you could stick to riding around with a video camera and blabbing numbers out of thin air to the mic. I will help build 1000s of complete ebikes when and if there is ever a substaintul market for lithium ebikes.Now why would I need any one else to do all the testing I have already done for many years.If you don't want to hear my results stop looking at my videos.You also can stop stalking and badgering me so others can learn.Go back to YOUR Girl Scout buddies who may try to protect you.
..........
It was LOWell who booted me from the last forum and our new friend ROBBie got me kicked of the last, with his lies. "
EbikeHawaii (Randy) on bikeforums site on 6/28/07 Ewheelie Video to the Rain Forest - thread

He makes a good point, Lowell was out to get him banned from here
and everytime he posted Lowell was there with some argument, and then Draper goes to another forum and lo and behold the same Lowell is tormenting him over there. Lowell you need help man. And this Lowell is a moderator here? Give me a f*#$ing break!
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1239&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

After a year or two give us your TRUE maintenance report and all your ebike costs.

Coming from a person who has many thousands of dollars worth of batteries... why don't you give us a cost break down on your bike?

Coming from a person who has many thousands of dollars worth of batteries... why don't you give us a cost break down on your bike? Why don't you cook me pancakes on your hub motor?

Why don't you cook me pancakes on your hub motor?

If you want to talk about cooking, cookies and girl scouts, I suggest you do it here: http://www.discusscooking.com/forums/

As for this forum, you can just post a cost break down of your bike here. Or maybe you're afraid the cost will make a simple hub motor bike look like a bargain.

If you want to talk about cooking, cookies and girl scouts, I suggest you do it here: http://www.discusscooking.com/forums/

As for this forum, you can just post a cost break down of your bike here. Or maybe you're afraid the cost will make a simple hub motor bike look like a bargain.The sprockets, chain, and stator and roter cost about $20.The controller $130. The Sram hub was $90. from Bike Friday when I baught it.The $750 worth of Evercels (from the evercel dealer who supplied Pheonix motorcars),with a 10 ah Zivan charger were given to me 4 years ago.The lithiums were given to me almost 2 years ago.The rear wheel spoke job with a Mavic rim cost $40.The Huffy bike with full suspension cost $80.Watt meter was $60. Magura throttle was $50.Aluminum, bolts, soulder, fuses, paint ect $10. Hall sensors 3 at .65 cents each. Now give us YOUR Ebike costs.

Well since we're not all lucky enough to have parts given to us, a realistic street price figure would be a good reference. For example, the "Not for tandem bicycles", 1067g SRAM DD hub w/ disc mount costs $245 at Greenspeed.

http://www.greenspeed.com.au/dualdrive.html

Likewise, $50 for a pile of parts, however nice they are, doesn't do the average person any good. For a proper cost analysis, motor winding and assembly time must be factored in. After all, what kind of ebike kit would come with a stator and a spool of wire?? And where can I buy SRAM DD hubs for $90?

You posted multiple times about the Sevcon Millipak controller. Is this the one you use? If I'm not mistaken, these cost over $400.

Well since we're not all lucky enough to have parts given to us, a realistic street price figure would be a good reference. For example, the "Not for tandem bicycles", 1067g SRAM DD hub w/ disc mount costs $245 at Greenspeed.

http://www.greenspeed.com.au/dualdrive.html

Likewise, $50 for a pile of parts, however nice they are, doesn't do the average person any good. For a proper cost analysis, motor winding and assembly time must be factored in. After all, what kind of ebike kit would come with a stator and a spool of wire?? And where can I buy SRAM DD hubs for $90?

You posted multiple times about the Sevcon Millipak controller. Is this the one you use? If I'm not mistaken, these cost over $400.
You are always mistaken.Bike Friday has been using these sram hubs on there bikes for many years with great results an well as on the tandoms they make and sell as high quality bikes.
In Volume these parts would cost less.FYI the $8. stator is already wound and a off the shelf product made by the millions.

If you want to talk about cooking, cookies and girl scouts, I suggest you do it here: http://www.discusscooking.com/forums/

As for this forum, you can just post a cost break down of your bike here. Or maybe you're afraid the cost will make a simple hub motor bike look like a bargain.Hub motors are bargin for the chineese that sell them.

i don't understand you said it would cost $100 to make your motor but here you say its was $20
what am i missing?

i don't understand you said it would cost $100 to make your motor but here you say its was $20
what am i missing?

You're missing the special volcanic fairy dust, along with an Ikea hex wrench to assemble it.

Actually what's really missing is a straight answer from Randy when people call him out on his claims. What is the real cost of a finished motor? Old car alternators don't become 92% efficient motors for 8 bucks...

Randy says:[Staror, Rotor including magnets, and Controller.In each of these the things to be considerd is size, design, quality materials and parts, quality manufacturing, efficiency and cost. Profit is all the chineese ebike motor makers are concerned with.This is why the us ebike market is filled with junk and people here are still promoting it because it's available and they want to profit on it as well. Too bad ! If you want somthing better at a good price it's not going to happen anytime soon unless there is a definate market for high priced lithium ebikes and the unefficient hub motors fade out.They will in time.]

the battery design is independent from the engine/gearing design - having expensive efficient batteries if anything allows more leway in lower engine efficiency and higher power consumption. you have run out of excuses - there is a market for high torqued energy eficient geared e-bike designs indepent of battery technologies and fuel cells (which are constantly advancing at a faster rate anyway) one uses the batterries they can afford at the time and energy cells are upgraded over time according to need and budget.


Bragging, Taunting and Title of Worlds fastest Maui volcano climber awarded to Randy Draper - all the while he makes stupid excuses like there is no market for 1000 e-bikes when most brand name e-bikes sell for well over 1000 dollars. Arn't you envious of him - his motor is inexpensive to build but don't you wish you may have it? ha ha ha envy envy envy Randy - he holds the title

The truth is, Randy doesn't actually exist. Here's a picture of the guy pretending he's Randy:

http://www.sitcomsonline.com/sillacoleman.jpg

That's his personal butler robot that he made for $19.95... :rolleyes:

Randy says:[Staror, Rotor including magnets, and Controller.In each of these the things to be considerd is size, design, quality materials and parts, quality manufacturing, efficiency and cost. Profit is all the chineese ebike motor makers are concerned with.This is why the us ebike market is filled with junk and people here are still promoting it because it's available and they want to profit on it as well. Too bad ! If you want somthing better at a good price it's not going to happen anytime soon unless there is a definate market for high priced lithium ebikes and the unefficient hub motors fade out.They will in time.]

the battery design is independent from the engine/gearing design - having expensive efficient batteries if anything allows more leway in lower engine efficiency and higher power consumption.

I'd have thought this is right really. An efficient and long lived motor and transmission system would sell really well if it was sensibly priced, irrespective of what battery technology people put on it. If it was better than a hub motor, it would be better with Lead Acid or Lithium batteries. The motor kit would sell by the thousands I'd have thought, as would a well engineered ebike solution. You could offer it with different battery technologies to suit different pockets, though I think lead acid is such a bad technology for this application that I'd miss it out. Nicads could come in at the bottom end and Lithium Polymer at the top. As a non-expert, it seems to me that Nicads could work if you were ona budget. They happily give out their full charge and have really good perfromance in the number of full cycles they will supply. Obviously, they are quite heavy for a decent capacity, but better than lead.

As described, Randy's motor / sram gears solution seems to work. It has obvious advantages if it was available. So why not manufacture and sell it to us?

I'd have thought this is right really. An efficient and long lived motor and transmission system would sell really well if it was sensibly priced, irrespective of what battery technology people put on it. If it was better than a hub motor, it would be better with Lead Acid or Lithium batteries. The motor kit would sell by the thousands I'd have thought, as would a well engineered ebike solution. You could offer it with different battery technologies to suit different pockets, though I think lead acid is such a bad technology for this application that I'd miss it out. Nicads could come in at the bottom end and Lithium Polymer at the top. As a non-expert, it seems to me that Nicads could work if you were ona budget. They happily give out their full charge and have really good perfromance in the number of full cycles they will supply. Obviously, they are quite heavy for a decent capacity, but better than lead.

As described, Randy's motor / sram gears solution seems to work. It has obvious advantages if it was available. So why not manufacture and sell it to us? I am only the inventor. Marketing ebikes and manufacturing them is not my idea of fun.First of all It would take volumes of at least 1000 at a time to get comparable prices as the junk ebikes that exist. Who can sell 1000 ebikes a year without expensive marketing and distribution centers? If lipo batteries are used orders of 1000 quality packs would be 50% less in costs but they degrade sitting in warehouses. If there was a volume of 1000 ebikes a month would mean a even larger savings in production costs. Too bad there is NOT that kind of market for 750 to 1000 watt performance. JUNK EBIKES will not make the market grow either.If great motors were made at a reasonable price for ebikes that would also take some volume.From what I sense there aren't many here that can even make a motor mount.So where is the market if all ebike manufactures continue to make junk? Waiting for the smoke to clear is the realistic approach.At some point some guttsy manufacture will take on making a quality ebike with my ideas that only I have proven to work well with the most efficiency at the lightest weight possiable WITHOUT the need for ANY derailers.

I am only the inventor. Marketing ebikes and manufacturing them is not my idea of fun.First of all It would take volumes of at least 1000 at a time to get comparable prices as the junk ebikes that exist. Who can sell 1000 ebikes a year without expensive marketing and distribution centers? If lipo batteries are used orders of 1000 quality packs would be 50% less in costs but they degrade sitting in warehouses. If there was a volume of 1000 ebikes a month would mean a even larger savings in production costs. Too bad there is NOT that kind of market for 750 to 1000 watt performance. JUNK EBIKES will not make the market grow either.If great motors were made at a reasonable price for ebikes that would also take some volume.From what I sense there aren't many here that can even make a motor mount.So where is the market if all ebike manufactures continue to make junk? Waiting for the smoke to clear is the realistic approach.At some point some guttsy manufacture will take on making a quality ebike with my ideas that only I have proven to work well with the most efficiency at the lightest weight possiable WITHOUT the need for ANY derailers.

gee randy i just wrote you a great reply but i lost it - i sent it to my brother inlaw though so get intouch with him: to see what i wrote about getting started.
+1 650 964 2267 or neil@adscholars.com

Neil Boylan
President & Founder
AdScholars LLC

I like hub motors because my eBike transforms from eBike to non-eBike in about 2 minutes (see the "Transformer" thread for more).

Hub motors are an easy way for many people to retrofit their existing bikes and when it comes to offering eBikes as car alternatives, it's this very feature which makes it possible.

I'd hate to see hundreds of thousands of people toss out perfectly good bikes just to get a complete eBike (bike and motor) when they can simply retrofit their existing bike with an eBike kit.

I know there are plenty of non-hub motor kits out there as well. But hub motor kits are really the easiest ones to install.

Whew....

Some grist for the mill:
How about a brushless, geared hub motor perhaps? Coupled with 123 racing's nono-phoshate lithium Ion packs (which are cheapest, BTW, when obtained as DeWalt 36V power tool packs).

"Must see" video on a Frankenstiened test on one of those motors here (80 mph at 80 V):
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2128164272361983242
(Uses exactly the same controller I use.)

As an aside, these actual motors are not going to be available in North AMerica until late fall apparently, the only other motor that is similar is a Korean unit that will only front mount with no room for disc brakes unless you've got forks with 5 1/2" clearance.

Regards, Tom

WARNING THE PUMA KITS ARE THE DOGS GONADS. WE CANNOT AND WILL NOT IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE SERIOUS TROUSER WETTING FUN YOU WILL EXPERIENCE WHEN ABOARD THESE MACHINES. (http://www.teamhybrid.co.uk/pages/crystalyte/evtech/evtech.htm) :D

So, this is the same motor that Doug in Texas also plans to sell, but is available in the UK now (I thought he said he designed and shipped that motor to Team Hybrid but I could be mistaken)? That would be great to be able to have one now.

One thing i would like to say about going to commercial production with an idea..It is expensive and a "catch 22" situation. I say "catch 22", because for any factory to even spend their time to discuss pumping out your product, You have to be talking a lot of units. Yet, you can't create any sales with out having units to sell. So how does one create demand/sales with no units? That is why it takes huge bank rolling to pay for

1)redesign/engineering of the product so it can be produced in an easy and cost effective manner
2)tooling up of the factory
3)pay for storing all the product at a distrubution center
4)Setting up dealer networks
5)office staff to process the paper work
6)office space/warehouse rent
7)a team of lawyers to monitor your copywright and make sure the factory that pumps out your product isn't making it on the side and selling it. (chinese don't really care about copywright rules, they do it anyways)
8)warranty for your product. (most factories pump out product and forget, warranty is your baby)
9) advertising for your product
10) huge liability insurance blanket
11) having an on site representative/engineer at the factory during production runs. Make sure no corners are cut. Also to make sure the original product is shipped and not switch shipped product.


The list goes on. I'm sure all you people are aware of the hassles, but i figured i would post anyways. What i'm getting at, it can be light years and tens or hundreds of millions before a geat idea and proto type become a commercial product. Most times never. If one wanted to make pennies, i guess production could be tried cottage style with aliens.

Actually, if Ebike hawaii has a legitimate good design for a motor, he should try selling it to one of the oil companies. If they see it as a threat they will buy the rights. When a custom or one of item is made, how does one figure out the true cost? Go to any show and shine and ask a guy(who did a frame off resto) what his labour would be. All he'll be able to quote is what it cost for him to get the work he couldn't do, done.Those vech's are worth way less then what they truely cost. Labour of love "pays" for the loss i guess. labour of love is a term that doesn't exist in comercial production. If one wants to see commercial production of hot cars, watch american hotrod and all the cost saving hackery they do. I cringe at most of the work they pull off. My .02 on production ideas and costs.