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So a 130 lbs. pure climber takes 11th place in a long individual time trial. Inspired by the Maillot Jaune? Sadly, I fear something more sinister. Let's examine his performance in all of his previous time trials in 2007 and 2006:
http://www.feltet.dk/michaelrasmussen/article.php?12.255
2006
114th Stage 7 in Tour de France
85th Stage 19 in Tour de France
89th Stage 14 in Vuelta a Espana
2007
105th Stage 5 in Tour of California
79th Stage 6 in Tour of California
So he goes from 79th as best top finish in a time trial to 11th...remarkable.
p.s. I haven't seen that kind of TT inspiration from a climber since the great Marco Pantani!
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If we start suggesting every great performance in sports is due to drugs, we might as well turn the TV off and quit following it. Sometimes people work hard and improve - without drugs. We don't know otherwise in this situation, and I personally am sick and tired of insinuation that only the people doing well are taking PE drugs. We can just as easily assume everyone's doing it, and we can consider it a race tactic, or that no one but those who are caught are doing it.
Maybe most enjoy the speculation, but I'm getting so that accusations are far more distasteful than the fact that some do use the drugs.
If we start suggesting every great performance in sports is due to drugs, we might as well turn the TV off and quit following it. Sometimes people work hard and improve - without drugs. We don't know otherwise in this situation, and I personally am sick and tired of insinuation that only the people doing well are taking PE drugs. We can just as easily assume everyone's doing it, and we can consider it a race tactic, or that no one but those who are caught are doing it.
Maybe most enjoy the speculation, but I'm getting so that accusations are far more distasteful than the fact that some do use the drugs.
If I'm a life long short-bus rider and I suddenly join MENSA then it's sure to raise a few eyebrows....
weather helped him a lot today. Looked pretty dry by his finish.... but contenders going slow on downhill made a big difference to how much time they could take. The uphill also limited the length of the course they could put time on him. He lost about 1 minute in the 18k from the top of the hill to the finish. Its not so superhuman of him.
edit: last 16k after the flats, but he only lost 5 seconds to evans in those 16k... which didn't seem technical at all... so much more impressive than most would expect.
I dunno - I did think it was interesting that the "men in black" did startling well in the TT today. I've had my eye on Astana the whole year; at one point of the season in back-to-back "big" ProTour Timetrials (in the Giro and Dauphine I believe) Dave Z - one of the best TT specialists in the business - was beaten into third place in each by four different Astana riders. Three of them took three of the top four places today and the fourth (Eddy M***olini) got popped for doping.
But then a strong case can be made for the entire peloton being doped so........:shrug:
It's a bad time for cycling.
edit: LOL at the potty-mouth filter - Eddy M's name is a dirty word!
He only had one other time trial that meant anything to him, and that was the infamous one in 2005. I have posted before.
1) He had De Jan breathing down his neck
2) He had never been in that position before
3) He got nervous and cracked
4) It was some killer on the job training
5) After that he probably decided to practice a little
6) A lot of riders went down today, so they were not going all out
Richard
Don't really need PE, taking a pint of "clean" blood after a good-to-excellent stage, storing it, and then transfusion between the stages of one of the big races can have the same effect. But should "natural" (i.e., non-drug-based) techniques that improve blood oxygenation efficiency be regulated? As long as the blood used/reused is from the athlete themselves, it is very hard, if not impossible, to detect any "cheating". It's been used in the past in many sports and can't be considered "artifical PE" since it's naturally produced by the athlete themselves.
That being said, Rasmussen has been training at altitude for months, so it is possible his performance and endurance (so far) in the TdF can be attributed to that training. The Peloton made a mistake anyways by letting Rasmussen get away in his second attack/breakaway in stage 8. The next few days should sort out the contenders from the pretenders anyways. Stage 19 is another individual time trial and if it's still close, Rasmussen might lose it there if he's still wearing the yellow jersey before that stage.
He finished ahead of some strong TT'ers like Karpets, Millar, and even his teammate, Thomas Dekker. I didn't watch today, so I don't know how the course affected these guys as the day went on.
Past performance is virtually irrelevant, since on most of those TTs he was treating it as a rest day. If you are only going for KOM, the TT is utterly meaningless.
Is he doping? No more than anyone else.
Paul Sherwin said something hilarious when they were showing Rasmussen riding about 45k into the TT. Paraphrasing here, but it was something to the effect of: "He's got to dose his performance just right here..."
Very funny, Paul! I'm sure you didn't mean it that way. ;P ;P
Weather was absolutely on his side today. He also hasn't had to push himself all that hard the last few days.
And clearly folks have underestimated his abilities, due to the oft-repeated horrible 2005 TT. But one TT stage obviously does not mean he will always do awful TT's, any more than one bad mountain stage would suddenly make him a sucktacular climber.
Besides, a good TT run has almost as much to do with handling and proper decisions as it does power output and recovery. I don't know of any PED that will magically make you more skilled at taking corners, do you?
Also don't forget, before this year he never once practiced on a time trial bike. This can not be discounted.
Rasmussen very well might be using drugs but to use his performance in this TT to suggest it shows how little you know and follow this sport.
Rasmussen very well might be using drugs but to use his performance in this TT to suggest it shows how little you know and follow this sport.
Why? Back this up please! This sounds like a coming from the sky, "I-am-right-you-are-wrong" condescending botto-style pronouncement.
There is a seasoned pro out there doing commentary for the Tour, who has his doubts on Rasmussen's integrity regarding doping and he specifically raises his past performances on TT to show that today's "performance" might not have been dope-free..... What do you know that he doesn't?
That's another reason people suspected Riis of doping: he was not a Grand Tour winner far from it, and then on the tail end of his career, bam!, he wins the Tour. As it turns out, the "past performance" methodology was right on target......
I think drugs played a very big part in today's TT. I think it was obvious Cancellara was using some marijuana prior to taking the start. I mean HOW ELSE could the world champion time trialer crash multiple times. Maybe it wasn't his fault. Maybe someone slipped him a mickey.
Of course I'm being sarcastic! I understand that this doping issue keeps coming up lately and it most often is exposed when someone has had a stellar performance. But SERIOUSLY, like so many said before me, if we are going to cry wolf everytime someone does better than expected we going to be so jaded. Heck, I think it's too late. We already are jaded!
Let's just go on one of two assumptions: 1) They're ALL doing it and no one has an advantage based on the fact. 2) Only the ones who get caught are doing it and they ALWAYS get caught, so no one is getting away with.
This way we can stop throwing baseless accusations around at riders we don't like or make inaccurate predictions of their poor performance, while at the same time sheltering our favorite riders from those same accusations.
Well .. Sammy Sosa went from relative baseball obscurity to superman because he trained hard. So, maybe Rasmussen trained hard also.
Drugs do not make you more coordinated on sharp corners, more efficient in keeping a line, better aero skills, etc. I'm thinking Chicken just never focused on TTing cuz he was preoccupied with KOM and his climbing which is why he was so sloppy and inefficient at it. I think the physical strength and potential were there. All he needed to become a decent TTer was practice at improving the small details that save time.
Why? Back this up please! This sounds like a coming from the sky, "I-am-right-you-are-wrong" condescending botto-style pronouncement.
There is a seasoned pro out there doing commentary for the Tour, who has his doubts on Rasmussen's integrity regarding doping and he specifically raises his past performances on TT to show that today's "performance" might not have been dope-free..... What do you know that he doesn't?
That's another reason people suspected Riis of doping: he was not a Grand Tour winner far from it, and then on the tail end of his career, bam!, he wins the Tour. As it turns out, the "past performance" methodology was right on target......
As many have said, he was a KOM guy the last 2 years and TT's were an afterthought. He obviously has worked alot on his TT spin over the last year and that showed today to everyones surprise. Riskus didn't say Rass isn't doping, he said Rass's TT performance didn't just get better because he doped more, but because he put time in on the TT bike. Has and does Rass dope, sure. Did he ride his TT bike alot more in the offseason, yes.
The first few times I commuted I averaged under 20kph, and slid on gravel and got a boo boo. A year later I do 30kph. 50% improvement. The fact that I was clueless at first left a lot of room for improvement.
Just the fact that he had reason to try this TT compared to last year, would mean a 3 minute expected improvement over last year. In addition to big weather breaks, he also had team support for pre-race prep, and Erik Dekker in the team car behind him.
The fact that he lost only 15 seconds in the last flat non-technical 16k might be suspicious, but might be explained by taking the hilly first part easy (for him). This is within the parameters of just a good day, IMO... no whiskey needed.
If Cancellara can finish 8:45 behind on a stage he might of won, Ras can do 4-6 minutes better than last year's crusing through TT without it implying cheating.
I still have plenty of salt grains if you need it. Remember how stoked you were after Floyd's epic ride? Or after .. Basso (I forgot his name for a second!) crushed the field at the Giro d'Italia.
These people aren't always the brightest, but they are rich and can afford good doctors/advisors. "work on your handling. don't eat any meat or chocolate for a year .. and oh yeah, take these pills every day before and after you train, but stop 1 month before the tour. And yes, ride your TT bike in a black kit every now and then."
Yes, he did a 180 degree swing from yesteryears .. but I still wonder. Maybe if he wasn't so ugly, I'd warm up to him. Floyd was ugly, so I never really warmed up to him either ..
So a 130 lbs. pure climber takes 11th place in a long individual time trial. Inspired by the Maillot Jaune? Sadly, I fear something more sinister. Let's examine his performance in all of his previous time trials in 2007 and 2006:
http://www.feltet.dk/michaelrasmussen/article.php?12.255
2006
114th Stage 7 in Tour de France
85th Stage 19 in Tour de France
89th Stage 14 in Vuelta a Espana
2007
105th Stage 5 in Tour of California
79th Stage 6 in Tour of California
So he goes from 79th as best top finish in a time trial to 11th...remarkable.
p.s. I haven't seen that kind of TT inspiration from a climber since the great Marco Pantani!
So does this mean Miquel Indurain was a doper because he could climb and was 180-190 lbs?
Contador TT'd well today and is tiny.
David Z isn't huge by any stretch.
Richard
Why? Back this up please! This sounds like a coming from the sky, "I-am-right-you-are-wrong" condescending botto-style pronouncement.
There is a seasoned pro out there doing commentary for the Tour, who has his doubts on Rasmussen's integrity regarding doping and he specifically raises his past performances on TT to show that today's "performance" might not have been dope-free..... What do you know that he doesn't?
That's another reason people suspected Riis of doping: he was not a Grand Tour winner far from it, and then on the tail end of his career, bam!, he wins the Tour. As it turns out, the "past performance" methodology was right on target......
I didnt say he isnt doping. I just said you cant base it off of this single event. Dude never cared about TTing before. He practically purposely lost time in past events so he could get away on other stages without anyone bothering to chase him.
When you are absolutely terrible at something and you never even bother to train that aspect its amazing the change that occurs when you actually make a concerted effort to get better at it.
i can see a couple of things to explain how ras could pull this off. what gets my attention is three of the first four places all going to the same team. that just strikes me as funny...
i can see a couple of things to explain how ras could pull this off. what gets my attention is three of the first four places all going to the same team. that just strikes me as funny...
Very interesting indeed.
Plus - Kloden just happens not to want to remain with T-Mobile, which is trying to clean-up its act.
I like Vino's attitude, but not the team. I seem them in some Gulag, doping along with their women swimmer friends from East Germany.
In TTs technique is just as important as fitness. Rasmussen has done a lot more practicing than he lets on. Backstedt says he saw two TT bikes in Rasmussen's garage. And judging by his position he probably spent some time in the wind tunnel too.
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a248/nhorley/LCTM-TDF07S13-154.jpg
He's a very clever guy and has encouraged everyone to underestimate him.
Do u think he had taken drug?
i don't think a man with a normal IQ would do such thing at this "special time"..
One of the reasons of his performance is that his depart position is the latest,when the road is about(almost already) to be dry...
so vino doped cancellara doped o grady doped at paris roubaix cos he they a good ride i'll wait for the tests and make my judgement i'm afraid i love watching cycling and if guys get caught i'll take that when it happens till then i'll enjoy the racing
I know this has been said before, but past TT performances are a bad measure with which to insinuate drug use. Why should Rasmussen try hard on a TT that has no bearing on his results? Likewise, what is to say that he could not have pulled out a wonder performance? Lowly part timers sometimes beat Premiership teams in the FA Cup. Burton United took Manchester United to a replay. Clearly, a team of plumbers shouldn't beat ManU, but they came close. I am pretty sure that Burton weren't doping!
If you want to accuse Rasmussen of doping, Velonew's story is far more convincing.
i find it very interesting he disappeared to mexico for a stint before the tour and missed two doping controls. i do think this year is probably the cleanest tour in a long time. you'd have to be crazy to think you can get away with nuch DURING the race, but if you could sneak away for a few weeks and train like a madman...AND be able to walk down to the corner drug store and fill up on test patches...viva Mexico!
I am pretty sure that Burton weren't doping!
maybe it was the half time beer and ciggies:)
[QUOTE=blanqui;4900387
2006
114th Stage 7 in Tour de France
85th Stage 19 in Tour de France
89th Stage 14 in Vuelta a Espana
2007
105th Stage 5 in Tour of California
79th Stage 6 in Tour of California
[/QUOTE]
As others have stated the strategic situation surrounding those TT's was completely different that it is now.
It was in his interest to do POORLY in the TT's because he was focused on the KOM. He would strategically loose time (in TT's and flat stages) so that he WOULD NOT be considered a GC threat when he attacekd for mountain points.
If he road as hard as he could in those tt's and took, say hypothetically, a top 25 place. He would now be considered a GC threat, and not let go IN ADDITION to being tired out from the effort.
Now he has all the motivation one could ask for to ride hard in the TT, and has shown what he was capable off. COnsidering the conditions played to his favor and how many of the other men that would have put more time into him crashed, i dont consider his TT to be indicative of PED use.
To assume he was going all-out in those previous TT's its pretty naive.
So does this mean Miquel Indurain was a doper because he could climb and was 180-190 lbs?
Contador TT'd well today and is tiny.
If Indurain transformed from a terrible climber into a world class one in less than a season I would wonder if he was drugs. Reread my OP and try to make better sense of it. When an athlete's performance is truly anomalous to ALL of his or her previous results we should make a critical note of it. I do not accept the argument that Rasmussen went into every previous TT dead set on losing.
In TTs technique is just as important as fitness. Rasmussen has done a lot more practicing than he lets on. Backstedt says he saw two TT bikes in Rasmussen's garage. And judging by his position he probably spent some time in the wind tunnel too.
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a248/nhorley/LCTM-TDF07S13-154.jpg
He's a very clever guy and has encouraged everyone to underestimate him.
He may have been practicing but his results from TTs in 2007 season have been AWFUL except for in the TdF.
well you better get it out of your head that he was trying to win too.
Rasmussen had luck on his side. The heavy hitters in the time trail could not go flat out due to the conditions. It is hard to put big chunks of time into someone when you are coasting.
The time trial was not flat either, which also favored Rasmussen.
Did you see how dry the roads were for Rasmussen?
If the weather was dry Vino's time may have been good for 10th place.
Richard
If Indurain transformed from a terrible climber into a world class one in less than a season I would wonder if he was drugs. Reread my OP and try to make better sense of it. When an athlete's performance is truly anomalous to ALL of his or her previous results we should make a critical note of it. I do not accept the argument that Rasmussen went into every previous TT dead set on losing.
Last year stage #7 52km time trial winning time 1hr 1 minute and 40 seconds, and it was as hilly or more so than stage 13 this year. Add 2 kilometers around 2 1/2 minutes. So the winning time this year dry would have likey been 1 hour and 4 minutes or so. Rasmussen would have lost quite a bit more time.
Richard
He may have been practicing but his results from TTs in 2007 season have been AWFUL except for in the TdF.
He hasnt had a reason to try in a tt so far this year, plus I doubt he wanted to let the world know about his newfound tt skills before the tour, he wouldnt want them to take him as a serious gc contender.
Last year stage #7 52km time trial winning time 1hr 1 minute and 40 seconds, and it was as hilly or more so than stage 13 this year. Add 2 kilometers around 2 1/2 minutes. So the winning time this year dry would have likey been 1 hour and 4 minutes or so. Rasmussen would have lost quite a bit more time.
Richard
That's good math... he may need 4-5 minutes on Kloeden/Evans before last TT to win.
What drug would help?
Seriously. Now If I wanted to create a TT guy then there are some that would help add muscle mass. But that would hurt his climbing ability. So what drug could he take to improve his TTs? I guess techically I should say what drug that he would not already have been taking to improve his climbing? If there is not one then how can anyone make a decent case that his TT improvement is due to drugs?
Drugs are not magic folks.
You guys have it all wrong. Its not that Rasmussen is doping, its that everyone else is NOT doping.
He hasnt had a reason to try in a tt so far this year, plus I doubt he wanted to let the world know about his newfound tt skills before the tour, he wouldnt want them to take him as a serious gc contender.
i think this is a great point. if the rest of the world new rasmussen was really training on a tt bike they might have took him a little more seriously when he went on his attack.
What drug would help?
Seriously. Now If I wanted to create a TT guy then there are some that would help add muscle mass. But that would hurt his climbing ability. So what drug could he take to improve his TTs? I guess techically I should say what drug that he would not already have been taking to improve his climbing? If there is not one then how can anyone make a decent case that his TT improvement is due to drugs?
Drugs are not magic folks.
You'll never make it as a DS.
Ah!!! Schadenfreude all around my friends! I've got a lovely steaming plate of it that I'm going to enjoy immensely. Bye bye Rasmussen.
If we start suggesting every great performance in sports is due to drugs, we might as well turn the TV off and quit following it. Sometimes people work hard and improve - without drugs. We don't know otherwise in this situation, and I personally am sick and tired of insinuation that only the people doing well are taking PE drugs. We can just as easily assume everyone's doing it, and we can consider it a race tactic, or that no one but those who are caught are doing it.
Maybe most enjoy the speculation, but I'm getting so that accusations are far more distasteful than the fact that some do use the drugs.
:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:
Ah!!! Schadenfreude all around my friends! I've got a lovely steaming plate of it that I'm going to enjoy immensely. Bye bye Rasmussen.
you dont have anything since most people werent denying he was using PEDs just saying your method of proving was faulty.
Well .. Sammy Sosa went from relative baseball obscurity to superman because he trained hard. So, maybe Rasmussen trained hard also.
I think Rasmussen might be riding a corked bike!
In TTs technique is just as important as fitness. Rasmussen has done a lot more practicing than he lets on. Backstedt says he saw two TT bikes in Rasmussen's garage. And judging by his position he probably spent some time in the wind tunnel too.
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a248/nhorley/LCTM-TDF07S13-154.jpg
He's a very clever guy and has encouraged everyone to underestimate him.
Which garage, the one in Mexico or the one in Italy?
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