Track Cycling - Track shoes

Anybody here rides real track shoes with a cleat? As I'm training hard on my keirin bike I think the next step would be keirin shoes, so I can pedal more efficiently. I won't go clipless though, I'm in Japan, and I wanna train and race like the keirin guys do. Besides, in Japan track racing is pretty much only keirin. It's just stupid to stick clipless pedals on a keirin bike.

The keirin shoes cost a lot, just because they're rare. I have Nike Ventoux Plus road shoes though. Here's the sole:


Can I buy track cleats like these ones (http://www.takizawa-web.com/shop-shoes07/cleat.html) and put them on my shoes? I use MKS Royal Nuevo Pedals with MKS steel toe clips.

But the thing is I'm gonna train on the road as well (with a front brake, put via clamps). I think it will be 50/50 road and velodrome. What do you think, is that dangerous to ride track shoes on the road? I think I'm just gonna loosen straps a bit while on the road.

I've ridden in old school track shoes with the plates and I personally wouldn't ride them on the road for two reasons:

1) They're much harder to 'clip out' than normal clips, which is the point. You're going to find yourself struggling with them at every stop sign/red light (both getting in and out). IMHO they're at best distracting and at worst dangerous on the road.

2) The plates a real pain to walk on, and the plastic wears pretty quickly.

The Keirin plates you linked to maybe more low-profile than the ones I used but they're basic function is the same - to ensure you're very securely connected to the pedal. Thats really not what you need when out on training rides.

I guess I'll ride them with loosen straps on the road until I can properly trackstand, Then it will be no problem.

I guess I'll ride them with loosen straps on the road until I can properly trackstand, Then it will be no problem.

Just ride them with tight straps or get clipless.

Everyone did it on road bikes until clipless became popular. Not being able to coast makes it a little harder but if you are dead set on using them at least do it right.

To answer your question, you have several alternatives (and to ride in Japan it's quite appropriate to be using traditional slotted cleats -- there are actually better solutions but it's a standard preserved by keirin rules in Japan so many people follow it, and you didn't ask for a debate about the most righteous method of affixing shoes to pedals).

Your shoes have 3-hole Look drilling, plus SPD-R and SPD. You can't do much with the latter two as far as slotted cleats, but MKS and Yoshida both make good slotted cleats that fit the Look drilling, plus you can always use the Shimano PD-64 cleats that aren't made any longer but are generally available. The MKS cleat actually locks into the MKS RX-1 pedal in a very neat way and is probably the sturdiest of the bunch; it will fit all the other MKS NJS pedals once they get through the NJS certification process and MKS releases the new designs. The Yoshida is lighter, isn't quite as strong, comes in all kinds of colors, and is a bit lower profile -- quite likely better for road use where you don't necessarily need to be locked in and would prefer to escape your pedals if you had to. The PD-64's are unduly expensive and are fairly long front-to-rear so the front tends to cock the foot up on the front plate of the pedal, but they work well. You don't want to walk on them too much, although one can walk around a track for a couple of seasons and not ruin them. The slot tends to collapse slightly if you walk on them a fair amount, but will re-open if you leverage the pedal into them and then flex the cleat a bit to widen the slot again. (The PD-64's work really well with PD-7400 Dura Ace pedals, but since you look like you want to go NJS, those pedals aren't.) I've also seen plenty of riders who have cut off the front nose of the MKS or Shimano cleats and just used the rear two screws to attach them -- it makes them sit a bit better on traditional NJS pedals.

The point is, you have plenty of options without even having to change shoes.

I was watching Keirin videos the other day; those guys have an assistant to unclip them. Just rock tight double straps or go clipless, they both cost about the same.

It's just stupid to stick clipless pedals on a keirin bike.

So what you're saying is that you want to use an inferior and dangerous pedal system because of fashion.

I'm sorry, but someone had to say it.

So what you're saying is that you want to use an inferior and dangerous pedal system because of fashion.

I'm sorry, but someone had to say it.


I assume that you feel clips/straps/cleats are inferior and dangerous. On the track it is quite the contrary. When a roadie pulls a foot in a sprint, he typically gets his nards beat by the top tube and gets to coast out of the action. When a trackie pulls a foot, the other foot is still attached to a pedal that's not stopping anytime soon. The rider typically becomes a projectile with the ability to take out the whole field.

I had to back out of many sprints when I was racing because some idiot roadie couldn't see fit to put proper pedals on his track bike. Suddenly there'd be a foot where I didn't expect it. Look, Time, Speedplay, all of them--they're not up to the stresses of sprinting a fixed gear.

It's not fashion. It's deadly serious. (OK, maybe broken bone serious!)

I don't see the fascination with getting the foot out. With clips and straps, if you're not a trackstander, just loosen one strap as you approach the stop. With a bit of practice, you should be able to flip the pedal up on the first or second stroke when the light turns green.

In the event of an actual emergency (often caused by roadies pulling a foot) your foot is going to come out! Every spill I took on the track ended with my feet out. I knew this when I tried to get back on, and had to loosen the straps (two, nylon-reinforced leather, Bindas ON EACH PEDAL).

Yes it's my first post, but I can't stand to see untruths on the track forum.

Mel

I assume that you feel clips/straps/cleats are inferior and dangerous.
You assume completely incorrectly.

Clips and straps with slotted cleats are inferior and dangerous for RIDING ON THE ROAD. The OP wants to use slotted cleats for RIDING ON THE ROAD. The only reasons given for wanting this set up is because a) he wants to train the "old-school" way (whatever that means) and b) he thinks clipless pedals would look silly on a keirin bike.

Plus I seriously doubt that the OP (or anyone posting here) is powerful enough to pull out of clipless pedals (properly adjusted and maintained) while sprinting at the track.

I assume that you feel clips/straps/cleats are inferior and dangerous. On the track it is quite the contrary. When a roadie pulls a foot in a sprint, he typically gets his nards beat by the top tube and gets to coast out of the action. When a trackie pulls a foot, the other foot is still attached to a pedal that's not stopping anytime soon. The rider typically becomes a projectile with the ability to take out the whole field.

I had to back out of many sprints when I was racing because some idiot roadie couldn't see fit to put proper pedals on his track bike. Suddenly there'd be a foot where I didn't expect it. Look, Time, Speedplay, all of them--they're not up to the stresses of sprinting a fixed gear.

It's not fashion. It's deadly serious. (OK, maybe broken bone serious!)

I don't see the fascination with getting the foot out. With clips and straps, if you're not a trackstander, just loosen one strap as you approach the stop. With a bit of practice, you should be able to flip the pedal up on the first or second stroke when the light turns green.

In the event of an actual emergency (often caused by roadies pulling a foot) your foot is going to come out! Every spill I took on the track ended with my feet out. I knew this when I tried to get back on, and had to loosen the straps (two, nylon-reinforced leather, Bindas ON EACH PEDAL).

Yes it's my first post, but I can't stand to see untruths on the track forum.

Mel

Most of the newer clipless systems are completely adaquate for everyone but the most powerful sprinters. I really doubt there is anyone who can pull out of fully tightened spdr-s thats not running a 200 time somewhere in the 10s.

Everyone uses them these days and problems are few and far between.

A roadie pulling a foot out in a sprint is only slightly less likely to cause a crash anyway.

Whoa, guys, let him have his peace. In Japan (as in the US, in some instances) track access is very limited so you do most of your training on the road. He says in a different thread that he's interested in racing track, particularly sprinting, and recognizes that most of the racing in Japan is keirin. Actually on the tracks in Japan accessible to amateurs, there are other events available as well, but if he wants to train for sprints, so be it.

It's common for sprinters to ride with slotted cleats, clips, and straps. Pretty much the whole French track team rides 'em, so do many others including many of the American national team. It's also true that if you are riding one kind of pedal/shoe/cleat system, you want to be fairly used to it and some riders can't just swap from Dura Ace, say, to a slotted cleat. Bear in mind that slotted cleats have zero float (and I really mean zero), and that your foot is held in a lateral position (Q-factor) that you don't necessarily have a lot of control over. And you need to be comfortable with the difference in how the pedals feel and react -- your lock-in point is behind the ball of the foot, not across a substantial distance as with most clipless pedal systems. Plus, you may want to be in the same shoes so you don't aggravate any foot problems (just look at what happened to Zabriskie in this year's Tour de France). So bottom line, some riders want to stay in the same shoe/pedal system both for training and racing. So let him do it his way, OK? It's not wrong. If you have experience with traditional clips and straps, you can be perfectly safe on them -- after all, the whole professional peloton rode them for many years. He's just asking for information to help riding in a country where the practices are a bit different from the US, and even in the US, I wouldn't necessarily give him grief. I've coached good track riders who have to do the same because they do need the clip and strap approach, and who get various leg problems when they switch back and forth between systems. And by the way, at my local track, I've seen riders regularly pull out of Speedplays, Looks, Times, pretty much everything else out there. And while rare, I've seen riders actually break Dura Ace SPD-R pedal springs, and I've seen enough riders pull out of SPD-R's without toe straps attached. So let's give him a break. He's looking for help and info and nobody's giving it to him. Put away the egos.

Nothing wrong with training in your race shoes and pedals, in fact if your training specificly for track sprint its probaby a very smart Idea. If somone gives you a hard time on the road about your strap ends flapping around just remember youll kill them racing for a mailbox!

If your not racing Japanesse Keirin yet you could use any older half decent road clip and strap pedal. Those might include older Campy pedals, MKS, Suntour(witch is actualy MKS) and even some of the Miche pedals. On steep tracks its best to use modles with a cage shape similar to the RX-1 so you have that little extra bit of clearance. Or you can cut the side off like I did on my first pedals. Ive helped a few people track down these kinds of pedals and more often or not its very easy to find used ones in amazing condition on garage sale bikes or in older racer's garages now that they upgraded to clipless. You just have to hunt around. As long as they have steel cages youll be alright.

As for cleats the yoshida ones mentioned work very well. If your broke you could use a pair of used Look or shimano cleats. Cut the front portion off and hack saw a grove on the back. Ive seen it done, and ive seen them raced, once your strapped down your not going anywear.

If your going to be doing anything track related weather its training on the road or on the track get yourself a pair of nice double straps. A single strap is strong enough to hold your foot in but the doubles do it without pinching the hell out of your poor feet. It has nothng to do with fassion but with what works.

Thanks for your support!

I have MKS Royal Nuevo pedals, they have almost the same shape as RX-1. I guess, I'll have to look for specific shoes, my road ones may be tricky to insert.

fewer and fewer people are using slotted cleats. At low levels hardly anyone is anymore. Clipless have gotten much better even with the most recent generation and it's just not worth the hassle even on the track for anyone but the most fervent luddites and strongest sprinters. There is simply no reason a beginning racer cannot ride clipless even if he does have aspirations of sprinting.

-Clipless will be completely adaquate and are standard for all but the strongest sprinters.
-If he finds at some point that he doesn't feel secure with his clipless set up he can always add a strap when he's sprinting.
-Riding on the road with slotted cleats kind of sucks and this is how he is going to be doing most of his riding.
-Riding will loose straps as he plans to is going to teach him really really ****ty sprinting techniques.
-shoes + cleats is going to be more expensive then clipless pedals + cleats.

sorry this was not directed at you tadashi but as is often the case I strongly disagree we 11.4s advice. When someone asks a question about a bad idea the most helpful thing to do is not to help them carry it out but advice them as to why it's bad.

Theres probaby thousands of sprinters in the world that do their training in the road, myself included. Training on the road doesnt mean hours and hours if your a pinner. It means short intervals at top speed, a perfect situation to have the most secure pedals you can get. And whats wrong with long rides in clips and straps. 30 years ago thats all anyone had!

You dont need to buy specific shoes at all, just the slotted cleats witch are CHEAP! Theres usualy alot of them on Ebay. A regular road shoe will work just fine.

You assume completely incorrectly.

Clips and straps with slotted cleats are inferior and dangerous for RIDING ON THE ROAD. The OP wants to use slotted cleats for RIDING ON THE ROAD. The only reasons given for wanting this set up is because a) he wants to train the "old-school" way (whatever that means) and b) he thinks clipless pedals would look silly on a keirin bike.

Plus I seriously doubt that the OP (or anyone posting here) is powerful enough to pull out of clipless pedals (properly adjusted and maintained) while sprinting at the track.

It isn't power, it's power badly applied. Consider the situation of a guy who's just come up to the cat 3s. He's been racing the track for maybe a month or two, got his upgrade out of the 4s without ever exceeding 30 mph. First night with the 3s, he survives a 10 lap scratch and is near the front of the group when the bell rings. Suddenly he's going 35 mph in the same gear (because everyone uses an 88) and his stroke goes all square. Also, the riders are shaving him closer than before, and he gets a little scared. I sincerely doubt that any of the pedal systems have been tested on track noobs going 35 with a fixed gear for the first time. I'll bet that the engineers, if candid, would say, "I don't think we're insured for that." I lost several burrito primes in this situation. I want them back!

You also say "inferior and dangerous" for the road. I really can't imagine what that's about. This is my 25th season since I got cleated shoes for the first time, and you're telling me that for 23 of those years (since the LOOKs came out) that I may as well have been riding helmetless on a Huffy! Here's the inferior thing as I see it: If it's inferior it's going to slow me down. Once I'm up and snug (two pedal strokes) I see nothing different between one and the other. The dangerous thing as I see it: Consider the consequences of what happens at 30 mph when you pull a foot (clipless scenario) versus what happens at 3 mph when you can't pull a foot (strapped scenario). I'll take ten of the 3 mph situation before I take one of the 30 mph situation. In 25 years, I've done the junebug roll maybe 5 times (this is when you're on your back still strapped in). It's usually pretty f'n funny!

Later

Mel

I've decided to edit this post as I've been getting a little over-zealous.

I don't think that it's impossible to safely use slotted cleats. I think that during races, slotted cleats may be a little bit safer due to being more secure. I think that while training on the road where you encounter a lot more unpredictable things and stop more often, slotted cleats may be a little more dangerous.

However here is a quick summary of what I meant by my previous posts:

Tadashi originally wrote:


I won't go clipless though, I'm in Japan, and I wanna train and race like the keirin guys do. Besides, in Japan track racing is pretty much only keirin. It's just stupid to stick clipless pedals on a keirin bike.

which I took to mean "I won't ride clipless because I want to pretend I'm a keirin racer, plus I want to be fashionable." If that's not what he meant then I apologize but I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that when someone says they won't ride clipless because "It's just stupid to stick clipless pedals on a keirin bike."

I feel that Tadashi did not have very good reasons to use slotted cleats. If he had said he wanted a pedal system that was really secure for sprinting we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Yoshi-

S'cool, OK? Problem at my end was the blanket statement of "inferior and dangerous." Strong language without any qualifiers, situational, threadwise, or otherwise.

Seriously, my reasons for staying with clips and straps on the road was so that all my bikes (7 at one point) could use the same pedal spares (Campy NR), and I have weird feet that I've had a hard time fitting into shoes suitable for snap ins.

I do have clipless that I used for road time trials, but they still require reaching down to release--they're Cinelli M71s, also known as "death cleats."

Later

Mel

Yoshi-

S'cool, OK? Problem at my end was the blanket statement of "inferior and dangerous." Strong language without any qualifiers, situational, threadwise, or otherwise.

Yeah, I realize that my first post in this thread could have been taken out of context.

I'll buy Nike T-speed tomorrow. I tried them today, they're really nice and the upper part is smooth and suits toe clips well. Anybody tried them?

I'll buy Nike T-speed tomorrow. I tried them today, they're really nice and the upper part is smooth and suits toe clips well. Anybody tried them?

Tadashi, I think those shoes are good for road, but if you're using clips and straps you might want a more track specific shoe - what do the keirin guys use that you trained with?

Consider getting some old wooden soled Duegi shoes or Adidas shoes. The shoes with plastic/nylon/foam uppers, such as the Nikes, feel good with clipless pedals,but when you're sprinting you don't feel secure in them. You need leather shoes with a stiff sole.

Tadashi, I think those shoes are good for road, but if you're using clips and straps you might want a more track specific shoe - what do the keirin guys use that you trained with?

Some have expensive keirin shoes, but most people just use Shimano road shoes or the like. It works just fine. So they suggested that I buy road ones. I think Nike T-Speed will be best for toe clips among other road shoes. They're thin and smooth.

I've ridden in old school track shoes with the plates and I personally wouldn't ride them on the road for two reasons:

1) They're much harder to 'clip out' than normal clips, which is the point. You're going to find yourself struggling with them at every stop sign/red light (both getting in and out). IMHO they're at best distracting and at worst dangerous on the road.

Makes me wonder how any of us survived.

Bought Nike T-speed shoes today, they're really nice and work with toe clips just fine. Also ordered MKS cleats for them.

Got cleats today.



Actually the keirin guys recommended me to buy Roiswin (http://www.takizawa-web.com/shop-shoes07/shoes_img/cleat_roiswin.gif) cleats, but they were sold out, so I bought MKS ones (since I have MKS pedals). It's very hard to get cleat in the cage of the pedal because of the front part of the cleat. To get in you have to swerve your foot so the front part gets in the cage, then slide the rest, it's tiresome.

Woah, those shoes look hot!

As an aside not on whoever said that clipless pedals allow you to accidentally pull out, I run my Look Keo Carbon's at 18 Nm of tension, and I need to kick the pedal to clip in and clipping out requires a movement of the ankle that is impossible for me to "accidentally make" while riding, plus, with that tension, I occasionally need help clipping out.
That said, I've never seen anyone with any type of mid-high end road pedal pull out. Low-end Exustar's and Welgo's, yes, and same with SPD's, but never anything else.

The reason track sprinters use straps instead of clipless pedals is not only due to a fear of clicking out (which Zabel accidently did in the TdF three years ago - remember? There's also talk that Zabriskie's crash in the TdF TTT was caused by accidently clicking out).

The reason straps are preferred is that when pulling up on the pedal stroke a sprinter can feel like he or she is going to pull his foot out of the shoe - when 100ths of a second count, you don't want a sloppy feeling when you pull up on the pedal.

As an aside not on whoever said that clipless pedals allow you to accidentally pull out, I run my Look Keo Carbon's at 18 Nm of tension, and I need to kick the pedal to clip in and clipping out requires a movement of the ankle that is impossible for me to "accidentally make" while riding, plus, with that tension, I occasionally need help clipping out.
That said, I've never seen anyone with any type of mid-high end road pedal pull out. Low-end Exustar's and Welgo's, yes, and same with SPD's, but never anything else.

In normal road riding, that's true. And I never have a problem with SPD-SL's on the road, even at low tension. But on the track I can consistently and repeatably pull out of them at maximum tension. Road riders who jump on the track don't seem to have as much trouble, but those who focus on the power events seem to have more problems. It's not only twisting out of the pedal -- with road pedals I usually pull the spring directly back and pop the front of the cleat out of the pedal. Too many other track riders have done so that they try to find better alternatives.

And yes, there's also the simple fact that you want your foot firmly connected to the bike and to have an upper that lets you lift your foot a quarter inch off the sole and back down again -- that really gets in the way of translating power into speed. Remember what a different pedal stroke you have when you're trying to exert 100% power through the full rotation of the pedal -- in a start or jump.

Lastly, there's the problem that track riders in the power events often want zero float. This is both because float translates to loss of efficiency of power transfer, and because several flotation cleats (Look and Shimano SPD-SL in particular) have a tendency to break when used in power events.

At the NYS championships this weekend the guy in front of me during the Keirin unclipped which led to me having to go up track and going from position 3 to position 6. Of course it didn't matter that much anyway since I was under-geared (84") and I'm most definitely not a sprinter (I weigh 130 lbs).

My friend also came unclipped during a points race but that's because his pedal broke (which could happen with clips and straps, although probably not as easily).

It does happen but it's pretty rare - only the sloppiest or most powerful (or both) people can do that.

At the NYS championships this weekend the guy in front of me during the Keirin unclipped which led to me having to go up track and going from position 3 to position 6. Of course it didn't matter that much anyway since I was under-geared (84") and I'm most definitely not a sprinter (I weigh 130 lbs).

My friend also came unclipped during a points race but that's because his pedal broke (which could happen with clips and straps, although probably not as easily).

It does happen but it's pretty rare - only the sloppiest or most powerful (or both) people can do that.

Glad to see it's not just me that this has happened to! Those shoes look REALLY BIG when they're flying in your face, don't they? So what was the prize difference between 3rd place and sixth place--something close to part of your entry fee? Do you feel like you were denied of your rightful prize because of someone's poor equipment decision?

Nice to see someone use a small gear these days. 84" can be the right gear depending on how the keirin is set up. Does the motor accelerate the last lap before pulling off, or does it just maintain a modest speed up to the bell?

Later

Mel

Glad to see it's not just me that this has happened to! Those shoes look REALLY BIG when they're flying in your face, don't they? So what was the prize difference between 3rd place and sixth place--something close to part of your entry fee? Do you feel like you were denied of your rightful prize because of someone's poor equipment decision?

Nice to see someone use a small gear these days. 84" can be the right gear depending on how the keirin is set up. Does the motor accelerate the last lap before pulling off, or does it just maintain a modest speed up to the bell?

Later

Mel

To clarify it's not that I missed out on third place it's that I had the third position behind the motor (which is a good position, much better than 6th behind the motor). The motor accelerated until we were at 31mph (well that's what we were told anyway, I can't confirm this). On 84" I can't really go that much faster nor can I accelerate that quickly from 31mph to whatever my top speed may be so I feel that having a larger gearing may have helped.

The prizes were medals and I probably wouldn't have placed even if I had the third position when the motor pulled off so I don't feel like I was denied of anything.

Generally I find 84" to be pretty good for mass start events although I really need to start experimenting more with my gearing.