I think we can all agree that two of the main ways a bike gets stolen is by not locking a bike at all or by using a cable lock. The other day there was an incident in a store I was shopping in that made me understand better how smart people end up buying flimsy locks.
My local, independent hardware store is a fantastic place. They've got just about everything you could need, plus really knowledgable staff working there. Many of the guys who work there are older and semi-retired, and can tackle just about any home improvement project you can think of. There's even a small machine shop where you can get bolt holes re-threaded, screens custom built for your windows, etc. I've had nothing but good results following their advice for whatever reason I go in there.
My one gripe with them is that they sell those ridiculous cable locks for bikes. In fact, even their U locks aren't even very good. Still, I never thought too much about them until I was in there earlier this week. I ran into a couple whose downtown lunch cart I eat at often. They're nice people, immigrated from the Czech Republic a few years ago, and they came to the hardware store to look for a bike lock. I'm standing there listening to this sweet, old guy give the spiel about how bolt cutters can't cut through this cable, etc. He clearly believed in what he was saying. I had a sinking feeling in my gut as he went on. He's a kind man, and has never steered me wrong about hardware, though I know he's dead mistaken about this. I didn't want to embarass him, but I also really like this couple. I talk to them just about every day. Ack, what to do? The wife is off looking at something else, so I approach her and whisper "Don't get that lock!" We start quietly talking a bit about why, but the hardware guy overhears us. He starts turning this alarming purple (he's really quite old) and goes off on this rant about how everyone says this, and they're all wrong, and he can prove it with his bolt cutters in the machine shop, and so on. He ends it with a proudly stated observation that he's helped so many people get these inexpensive locks who never would have considered them otherwise. :eek: The three of us are standing there in mortified silence. We're not going to pick a fight with this old man. All I could think to say was "Sir, thieves are cutting cables like these in this city every day." We start walking to the register to pay for the stuff we are buying when he finally shouts out, "Well why aren't the police doing something about it, then?!" I was very glad I was able to direct them to a modestly priced LBS nearby for a lock after we walked out the door.
So this got me to thinking. People in our neighborhood trust the advice from the employees of this hardware store. For most things, they have good reason to. It was clear to me that he honestly believed this cable lock could not be cut by thieves. This store really does stand by what they sell. In our discussions about bike security on this forum, we are often incredulous by the faith some people set in such poor locks. On the other hand, if I didn't know much about bikes, I'd have probably taken that guy's advice. After all, my acquaintenances - who are not dumb people - were about to do just that.
Dchiefransom
07-22-07, 03:53 PM
He runs a hardware store, so is most likely not up to date on information on bicycle locks. The cable locks I have are older, and were touted as being flexible and "squishy" when people tried to use bolt cutters on them. That point of view was straight from the lock company advertising. Now things have changed, with heavy duty U-locks being stronger, and it sounds like the hardware guy has not been updated by the rep from the lock company. Although the lock companies suggest locking the frame and rear wheel to something with a u-lock, they still tell us to use a cable lock on the front.
If it were me, and I used that store a lot, I'd get a copy of New York or Onguard lock company brochures, or a bicycle magazine article with up to date info, and negligently leave them laying at the checkout counter when I left.
Dogbait
07-22-07, 04:31 PM
Somehow, the word needs to get out. I suggested that bike shops not sell cable locks on a local forum a few days ago and was given the excuse (by a bike shop worker) that low income folks could not afford a decent lock, even though the price difference between a cable lock and an economy grade U-lock is only 5-10 dollars. That seems a small price to pay for safeguarding a bike that cannot be replaced for less than 20 times that amount.
A quick check of the 10 most recent bikes reported stolen on finetooth cog (http://www.finetoothcog.com/site/stolen_bikes) in Portland yields this score:
unlocked - 2
other - 1
cable lock - 7
What is unusual about this sample is that no thefts of bikes locked with U-locks were reported. It commonly runs about 1 in 10. For cable locks, 7 in 10 is about normal.
http://www.pbase.com/billd9/image/74068308.jpg
donnamb
07-22-07, 04:58 PM
Oh, was that you, Dogbait? I saw that, too. What I can tell you about the shop employee that answered you is that she works at Citybikes, where they do have a lot of low income customers. I can also tell you that she's a really prinicipled & truthful person. I really believe Citybikes would love to stop selling cable locks if at all possible. I was surprised at her response, but could see her point. I don't think anyone walks out of there with a cable lock without a serious lecture on the risks. I can't say the same for all the LBSes in the area, though.
I've had a couple of ideas in the last few days. There's a bike cop I know who works in the precinct that serves the neighborhood that hardware store is in. He's totally the sort of person who would go in there and have a friendly, yet earnest chat with the owner. I've also thought about emailing the BTA (Oregon's bike advocacy organization) and seeing if they'd call or write the store owner. If they continue to sell them, that's their affair. It's just that they're a very trustworthy source of information for their customers, and it's obvious they believe in what they're selling. Even if they just sold U locks in the $30-50 range, it would be much better.
Dogbait
07-22-07, 05:06 PM
I know who she is. I don't doubt her principles a bit. I just think it's false economy... almost to the point of it being more useful to spend the money on food or drink for all the good it does for your bike to be locked with a cable.
Speaking of BTA, maybe they could be convinced to undertake a publicity campaign similar to the bell thing. Maybe if they wouild not give the BTA discount on cable locks but double it on U-locks.
dydst
07-23-07, 06:18 AM
So do you guys think that it's useless to lock up a bike with a cable lock in tandem with a ulock?
dipy911
07-23-07, 06:36 AM
I always thought using both was better. A u-lock form the frame and a cable lock for the seat, wheels, ... anything with a quick release.
dipy911
Gurgus
07-23-07, 06:45 AM
I'm about to go a drop some cash on a u lock and a NYC chain lock to protect my new bikes that are replacements for the ones stolen last week. Should I get the u lock with the combination lock or is the keyed u lock better? My thinking is that the combo u lock would harder to pick. Anyone got any info? Thanks much.
genec
07-23-07, 06:56 AM
What about quick trips? I use a cable lock all the time for the convenience of a quick trip. 10 minutes in the grocery store type of runs.
Cable locks have their place... it just isn't for long term "parking."
Bekologist
07-23-07, 08:30 AM
I never recommend cable locks to customers at the bike shop, except as a 'latte lock' for when they can keep a close eye on their bike.
The shop I work at sells 20 dollar U-Locks, manufactured by Kryptonite and branded for Trek.
genec
07-23-07, 09:01 AM
"latte lock." I like that term. But it does show that there can be a use for a cable lock.
LCI_Brian
07-23-07, 09:27 AM
I have a similar gripe about getting tubes and other bike parts at a hardware store - especially when it's a small town and the hardware store is the default LBS. But typically, what the local hardware stores can get is limited by what their usual suppliers carry.
donnamb
07-23-07, 10:37 AM
What about quick trips? I use a cable lock all the time for the convenience of a quick trip. 10 minutes in the grocery store type of runs.
That may be an acceptable risk where you're living, Gene, but at this moment in Portland, I would strongly discourage even a "latte lock", as Bek so cleverly refers to cable locks. The theft rate here is getting worse. I know folks in places like Toronto and NYC are probably chuckling sardonically, but we're not as big of a city as they are, and so the increasing numbers are alarming and unacceptable to us. I think that older man's incredulousness at the police not doing something about it is a perfect example of our communty culture not having caught up to reality. Portland is a place where people still leave large cash tips on restaurant tables - and no one but the proper staff takes them.
It's also possible that being super cautious is only necessary in the warmer months, though I'm not sure. I think we'll find out more as this bike theft tracking website (http://www.finetoothcog.com/) continues to collect data.
catatonic
07-23-07, 10:51 AM
So do you guys think that it's useless to lock up a bike with a cable lock in tandem with a ulock?
Yes, that's fine for securing wheels, botle cages and the like....but most cable locks sold are not even suitable for this, since they have that giant plug and lockhead on each end. The kind of cablue usually used for this type of lockup has two loops in it and is locked with a large padlock, or threadde through the U-lock (It won't help against bike theft anymroe than the u-lock alone in this case, but it does help secure other parts of the bike),
I found many people use cable locks for one reason: convenience....one lock fits everything. I carry a heavy chain when in doubt, but many people cringe at the thought of carrying a 7lb locking system.
For the poor, a basic U-lock can be had for as little as $6 in the right stores. Yes it's rather low security, but it beats the hell out of a cable lock that would be obtained for the same price. Any cable will always be trumped by a Ulock of the same price.
mconlonx
07-23-07, 11:20 AM
I used to commute on a nice VanDessel SuperFly. Not exactly the most high-end bike you can get, but a nice 8sp commuter. One time, when I was locking it up with a cable, a homeless guy saw what I was doing and came over and educated me about thieves with ratcheting pruners that would "go through a cable like a hot knife through butter." I laughed it off. Bike was stolen in a completely different location a few months later.
Don't use cable locks.
genec
07-23-07, 11:22 AM
That may be an acceptable risk where you're living, Gene, but at this moment in Portland, I would strongly discourage even a "latte lock", as Bek so cleverly refers to cable locks. The theft rate here is getting worse. I know folks in places like Toronto and NYC are probably chuckling sardonically, but we're not as big of a city as they are, and so the increasing numbers are alarming and unacceptable to us. I think that older man's incredulousness at the police not doing something about it is a perfect example of our communty culture not having caught up to reality. Portland is a place where people still leave large cash tips on restaurant tables - and no one but the proper staff takes them.
It's also possible that being super cautious is only necessary in the warmer months, though I'm not sure. I think we'll find out more as this bike theft tracking website (http://www.finetoothcog.com/) continues to collect data.
Of course it probably helps that the bikes I use a "latte lock" on are not exactly shiny examples of the current technology in bicycles.
I would never for instance use such a lock on a brand new Vanilla Bike.
donnamb
07-23-07, 11:38 AM
Of course it probably helps that the bikes I use a "latte lock" on are not exactly shiny examples of the current technology in bicycles.
I would never for instance use such a lock on a brand new Vanilla Bike.
You'd be amazed at what get stolen here. Since so many of the bikes are just re-sold and returned to the streets, beaters can be quite popular. I do use a hefty U lock, but I also think it helps that my Breezer is a fairly conspicuous bike. If I were out in the far western suburbs of Portland, I wouldn't hesitate to use a "latte lock" for a short stop, though.
randya
07-23-07, 11:41 AM
Division Hardware? Or somewhere else?
Eli_Damon
07-23-07, 12:09 PM
I'm about to go a drop some cash on a u lock and a NYC chain lock to protect my new bikes that are replacements for the ones stolen last week. Should I get the u lock with the combination lock or is the keyed u lock better? My thinking is that the combo u lock would harder to pick. Anyone got any info? Thanks much.
I assume you're talking about the type of combination lock with four spinners, each one allowing you to select a digit, as opposed to the right-left-right type. I strongly recommend against this type of lock. You have to know something to pick a key lock but even an idiot like me can open a combination lock by trying every combination in succession. I have done this before. You try out combinations for awhile. If you don't find the right one, come back another time and resume where you left off.
I would also like to point out that there are some places you might want to lock up where there is nothing you can put a U-lock around. In this situation, I would say that a cable lock is better than nothing.
catatonic
07-23-07, 12:44 PM
Those 4-warded combo locks are crap....when I was a child I learned how to crack those.
...my grandparent's house was boring as hell and my grandfather said I was too old for toys, board game and the like....so I just played some metallica CDs in my room, and messed with whatever locks I could find around the house....
KnhoJ
07-23-07, 12:57 PM
It sounds like cable locks are getting such a reputation in Portland that using one might actually attract attention. Almost like an "easy to steal" advertisement. But even at that, better than nothing.
I don't even have anything that I'd use as a quick stop lock. If it's a long trip, it's worth carrying the big locks; if it's a short trip, the weight isn't going to slow me down anyway. And I've been thinking about those quick, keep-an-eye-on-it lockups. How would that go? Maybe a shout and the guy runs away, but maybe not. So I've been using two locks even for quick stops. At least then I don't have to carry one around in a store, and maybe I won't have to fight off some wheelsnatching kid.
joelpalmer
07-23-07, 01:25 PM
For me a big part is where you're locking. I've been lucky in my previous employer (in Alameda, CA) let me keep my bike in my office. After that I was in school at the Hopkins SPH and they have a bike rack in the parking lot under the school, the only people who park in the lot are senior (as in the Deans) faculty and it has a guard you have to go past. My new job, at the Balt City Health Department has a rack in the garage, and the garage is used by the police academy for training. The two racks are nice because they are out of sight, but under supervision, and only people with a reason to be there are allowed in.
donnamb
07-23-07, 01:51 PM
Division Hardware?
Yes.
Mr. Underbridge
07-23-07, 02:22 PM
So have you talked to the old coot since? The answer to his last question, of course, is 'because it's not worth their time.' In DC, for example, there's a post or three every day about someone looking for help finding a bike that was stolen out from under a weak lock.
Going back with a peace offering might be a nice idea, if only because he really is doing a lot of harm to the community, though well intentioned. Take him up on his offer to put your theory to the test with the cutters - loser pays. Naturally, make sure the cutters have nice long handles and are wielded by some one who isn't, well, elderly.
So that graph tells me that it is safer to leave your bike unlocked than to put on a cable lock... :eek:
MillCreek
07-23-07, 03:14 PM
I assume you're talking about the type of combination lock with four spinners, each one allowing you to select a digit, as opposed to the right-left-right type. I strongly recommend against this type of lock. You have to know something to pick a key lock but even an idiot like me can open a combination lock by trying every combination in succession. I have done this before. You try out combinations for awhile. If you don't find the right one, come back another time and resume where you left off.
I would also like to point out that there are some places you might want to lock up where there is nothing you can put a U-lock around. In this situation, I would say that a cable lock is better than nothing.
I have read a couple of posts about this. If someone randomizes the combination lock each time when it is locked, I wonder just how much time it would take to try the ten thousand (10x10x10x10) possible permutations to get the right combination. I have seen some YouTube videos about cracking a four digit combo lock, but these were very inexpensive combo locks in which you could jiggle the locking pin or look into the guts of the lock to see the tumblers lining up. I have not seen any such videos or heard any accounts of this approach working with a quality combination u-lock. A lot of the reported concerns over a combo lock seem to be due to user error, such as not changing the default combo, or changing it by one digit, or using all 3s for the combination and the like. If someone changes the default to four unique digits and completely spin the all the combo dials when securing the lock, I would have thought that a combo u-lock as as secure as any other u-lock.
I would be really interested to see if there are any expert opinions from a locksmith or other sources of objective and knowledgeable experience about the vulnerabilities of a combination u-lock. I use one to lock my bikes to my hitch rack, in conjunction with a keyed cable lock for the wheels. Since they are locked only when being transported, and my vehicle is usually within visual range, for a post-ride meal or other short stops, I have felt this is an acceptable approach in my low-threat environment. But since I have some expensive bikes, if my combo lock is more vulnerable than the exact same keyed u-lock, I will ditch the combo lock. I see that Kryptonite and OnGuard show the same theft guarantee and security rating for the same model of u-lock, with the only difference that one model is keyed and the other combination.
So if anyone does have any actual locksmith expertise or knows of any link to such, I and many other people would be most interested to see it.
Conveyor Belt
07-23-07, 03:42 PM
Sometimes, especially around here, there's no way to lock a bike other than with a cable lock. Most of the time, the U-lock works great, but for that 5% of the time when it's come back tomorrow in the car, or leave the bike unlocked, or use the cable lock, I'm opting for the cable lock.
JMO.
Zorba
07-23-07, 03:46 PM
All bicycles weigh 50 lbs. A 30 lb bicycle needs a 20 lb lock, a 40 lb bicycle needs a 10 lb lock, whereas a 50 lb bicycle needs no lock....
:D
Raiyn
07-24-07, 01:49 PM
What about quick trips? I use a cable lock all the time for the convenience of a quick trip. 10 minutes in the grocery store type of runs.
Cable locks have their place... it just isn't for long term "parking."
10 minutes is 9 minutes 25 seconds too long with a cable lock.
sbhikes
07-24-07, 02:03 PM
What exactly is a cable lock (I mean, is every kind of cable lock useless or are some good) and what is the correct alternative? I thought those U locks can be opened with a ball-point pen.
This coming from someone who sometimes locks her bike with her helmet chin strap...
donnamb
07-24-07, 02:10 PM
The U locks were fixed. They all have flat key cylinders or whatever you call them. Here's some sound advice (http://www.mechbgon.com/lock/index.html) if you ever want to upgrade from your helmet. ;)
That is what I was thinking--- they have their purpose.
So do you guys think that it's useless to lock up a bike with a cable lock in tandem with a ulock?
Blue Order
07-24-07, 03:47 PM
The wife is off looking at something else, so I approach her and whisper "Don't get that lock!" ... All I could think to say was "Sir, thieves are cutting cables like these in this city every day." ... I was very glad I was able to direct them to a modestly priced LBS nearby for a lock after we walked out the door.Good for you! I was hoping the story would turn out well...
Now, what cart is this? I think I might have missed this one...
So do you guys think that it's useless to lock up a bike with a cable lock in tandem with a ulock?I think a top-rated U-lock plus top-rated chain is better.
I'm about to go a drop some cash on a u lock and a NYC chain lock to protect my new bikes that are replacements for the ones stolen last week. Should I get the u lock with the combination lock or is the keyed u lock better? My thinking is that the combo u lock would harder to pick. Anyone got any info? Thanks much.Keyed lock is more secure. The NY Fahgettaboudit line (u-locks & chains) has Kryptonite’s highest security rating, anything else from Kryptonite is less security.
"latte lock." I like that term. But it does show that there can be a use for a cable lock.oh yeah? ( http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/5311.0.html)
I would also like to point out that there are some places you might want to lock up where there is nothing you can put a U-lock around. In this situation, I would say that a cable lock is better than nothing.Why use an easily-cut cable lock when you can use a top-rated chain? That just doesn’t make sense to me…
gcl8a
07-25-07, 12:26 AM
Does the hardware store sell bolt cutters, too?
You should have made a bet with him.
donnamb
07-25-07, 02:04 AM
Does the hardware store sell bolt cutters, too?
You should have made a bet with him.
Sad to say, that was as pushy in a public place as I'm able to get in such a situation. :o
catatonic
07-25-07, 12:15 PM
This is very similar to the chain I use, except mine is an Avenir brand.
Dated a girl who locked her's up with a combination-cable lock despite my constant warnings.
I got to say "told you so" as we shopped for a new bike.
Blue Order
07-25-07, 03:45 PM
Dated a girl who locked her's up with a combination-cable lock despite my constant warnings.
I got to say "told you so" as we shopped for a new bike.Was the cable cut, or the combination lock defeated?
Raiyn
07-25-07, 04:03 PM
Was the cable cut, or the combination lock defeated?
Chances are it was cut as that's a bit quicker.
Brian Ratliff
07-25-07, 05:26 PM
I believe it is quite true that a bolt cutter will fail to cut through a cable. However, a cable cutter will make quick work of a cable. That's probably the main problem with the cable plus padlock system. If a thief has along a cable cutter, he just cuts the cable. If a bolt cutter, he or she just cuts the lock.
(BTW, the difference between a cable cutter and a bolt cutter is that the former looks like a set of sissors with overgrown handle and stumpy blades while the latter looks like a scaled up wirecutter.)
Carusoswi
07-26-07, 06:01 PM
That seems a small price to pay for safeguarding a bike that cannot be replaced for less than 20 times that amount.
It's a small price to pay if you have the money. It's an insurmountable amount to pay if you don't have the money. I am not advocating for or against cable locks (I stopped carrying locks myself), I just take issue with your implied message that smart money can somehow overcome no money.
Someone who has no money will ride his/her bike and try the best he/she can not to have it stolen . . . and that's about all he/she can afford to do.
Caruso
Phantoj
07-27-07, 12:24 PM
So that graph tells me that it is safer to leave your bike unlocked than to put on a cable lock... :eek:
Actually, the statistic is somewhat meaningless, because you don't know how frequently Portlanders choose to leave their bikes unlocked vs. using cable locks or U-locks.
You really can't say from the statistic I linked to that cable locks are inferior to U-locks. Perhaps they are just more popular. Example: If three times as many bikers USE cable locks, then finding out that three times as many bikes locked with cable locks are stolen would only indicate that U-locks and cables were equally effective.
Not that I'm arguing for cable lock use... it's clear that they are much easier to defeat.
Raiyn
07-27-07, 01:15 PM
I believe it is quite true that a bolt cutter will fail to cut through a cable.
Sorry, incorrect. Cable locks can easily be defeated with a bolt cutter all you need to know is where to attack.
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/8940/specializedsnipgr9.jpg
Brian Ratliff
07-27-07, 02:37 PM
^^^
I am a little out of date. When I think cable, I think of the old loop thing with a separate lock. But you are right. If you have a bolt cutter, you just attack the shank. But I don't believe a bolt cutter will cut through the stranded cable itself.
randya
07-27-07, 02:40 PM
a hacksaw often will easily, or a big cable cutter
Raiyn
07-27-07, 03:13 PM
^^^
I am a little out of date. When I think cable, I think of the old loop thing with a separate lock. But you are right. If you have a bolt cutter, you just attack the shank. But I don't believe a bolt cutter will cut through the stranded cable itself.
That's when you attack the swaging sleeves if not the lock itself. All you need to do is get one of the sleeves loose to open up the loop.
http://www.thecableconnection.com/wireropeassemblies/oval2.gif
If I were a dishonest man, I'd never want for a bike knowing what I know.
Brian Ratliff
07-27-07, 04:18 PM
That's when you attack the swaging sleeves if not the lock itself. All you need to do is get one of the sleeves loose to open up the loop.
http://www.thecableconnection.com/wireropeassemblies/oval2.gif
If I were a dishonest man, I'd never want for a bike knowing what I know.
I was thinking about that as I wrote it. I have a U-lock and don't use cables anymore. I also live in the west side suburbs of Portland. Yesterday I sat in a coffee shop for a couple hours doing work (It's nice when the boss is away ;) ) with my bike completely unlocked outside. I was keeping an eye on it, of course, but I can get away with it in Wilsonville. I would never do this in Portland, or even Beaverton.
wyeast
07-28-07, 10:36 AM
Division Hardware? Or somewhere else?
The old "Do-It-Right" joint? Must be the same guy who tried to convince me that my MagLED wasn't really broken, and that they did fix it (when they can't because they don't have parts, they have to be shipped to Ontario for replacement).
Nice guys, but in need of catching up with changing technology.
donnamb
07-28-07, 12:17 PM
'Fraid so. I've thought about it, and I believe when our friendly SE precinct bike cop gets back from his honeymoon, I'm going to get in touch with him and see if he'll have a chat with the store owner about this. The SE bike patrol is very popular with the merchants in the area, so he's a welcome face to them.