DrTim
07-24-07, 10:43 AM
What do you think? And what about yesterday's stage?
Professional Cycling For the Fans - Cadel Evans show get TT stage win!
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reef58
07-24-07, 10:45 AM
I didn't know he had a show. I am confused. What else is new?
Richard
Richard
DrTim
07-24-07, 10:47 AM
Should ... jeez ... I'm having a shocker :)
reef58
07-24-07, 10:49 AM
Okay, I suspect that would be the result.
I thought he was getting a TV show or something.
Richard
Should ... jeez ... I'm having a shocker :)
I thought he was getting a TV show or something.
Richard
Should ... jeez ... I'm having a shocker :)
daytonian
07-24-07, 10:56 AM
Ironic how the only stage he has a chance of winning, he will have rode the entire stage without someone elses wheel.
Randomus
07-24-07, 11:21 AM
Evans is looking at a top 10 finish and at least one stage victory - he is going to be given stage 13 - not a bad tour, I say.
Smoothie104
07-24-07, 11:41 AM
Ironic how the only stage he has a chance of winning, he will have rode the entire stage without someone elses wheel.
HAHAHAH!!! nice!
HAHAHAH!!! nice!
Devil
07-24-07, 11:42 AM
Smoothie, what's your take on this whole situation?
jibi
07-24-07, 11:46 AM
so Wiggins must be given second place as all the others were Astana
Well done Bradley.
george
Well done Bradley.
george
skinny
07-24-07, 11:50 AM
Ironic how the only stage he has a chance of winning, he will have rode the entire stage without someone elses wheel.Which goes to show that all the pundits calling him a wheel sucker really don't know WTF they're talking about. That includes quite a few of the posters to this thread.
skinny
07-24-07, 11:58 AM
:whoosh:
that went right over your head.Sure it did.:rolleyes:
A rider who can ride faster than every other rider in the race in a TT without sucking wheels is not using strategy when he follows the wheels/races in a bunch; he must be "wheelsucking". Who's failing to see the real irony here? The irony is that the posters to this forum know so little about real racing that all they can do is call Cadel a wheelsucker when they see the strategy he's using. How many times does someone have to tell you people; he has no team. He is racing the way he must.
You may not know much about racing botto, but at least you're consistent. Instead of posting some coherent racing information, you resort to personal attack. But I don't mind 'splainin' it to ya.
that went right over your head.Sure it did.:rolleyes:
A rider who can ride faster than every other rider in the race in a TT without sucking wheels is not using strategy when he follows the wheels/races in a bunch; he must be "wheelsucking". Who's failing to see the real irony here? The irony is that the posters to this forum know so little about real racing that all they can do is call Cadel a wheelsucker when they see the strategy he's using. How many times does someone have to tell you people; he has no team. He is racing the way he must.
You may not know much about racing botto, but at least you're consistent. Instead of posting some coherent racing information, you resort to personal attack. But I don't mind 'splainin' it to ya.
Smoothie104
07-24-07, 12:01 PM
Smoothie, what's your take on this whole situation?
I'm sad, my wife was really getting into the tour this year, as were a lot of my friends who don't ride. I hate to sound cynical, but when Vino destroyed everyone in the TT, I thought aloud "god I hope he doesn't get busted" Now you have the allegations against Rasmussen, and Contador was mentioned brifely in Operation Puerto, but dismissed etc...and he rode for Liberty Seguros/Manolo Siaz as well....
Which brings me back to my attitude of "they all dope" which sucks.. especially when they get caught.. They say when the weapons are all equal, the strongest man still wins.. but I don't really know what to think anymore.
I was so looking forward to tommorow's stage.. but how do you watch and believe now? It's coming down to who has the best doctor's and is willing to take the most risks...
I'm sad, my wife was really getting into the tour this year, as were a lot of my friends who don't ride. I hate to sound cynical, but when Vino destroyed everyone in the TT, I thought aloud "god I hope he doesn't get busted" Now you have the allegations against Rasmussen, and Contador was mentioned brifely in Operation Puerto, but dismissed etc...and he rode for Liberty Seguros/Manolo Siaz as well....
Which brings me back to my attitude of "they all dope" which sucks.. especially when they get caught.. They say when the weapons are all equal, the strongest man still wins.. but I don't really know what to think anymore.
I was so looking forward to tommorow's stage.. but how do you watch and believe now? It's coming down to who has the best doctor's and is willing to take the most risks...
skinny
07-24-07, 12:02 PM
pot. kettle. black. yawn.Just what I expected. No substance. Thanks.:beer:
OC Roadie
07-24-07, 12:09 PM
I expect Cadel will end up winning the Tour in a few months or years, after The Chicken and Contador get popped.
BDS
07-24-07, 12:32 PM
Hi, skinny.
I'm guilty of thinking that Cadel is a wheelsucker. So, if Cadel sits in the lead group all day, 4 or 5 spots in, hardly ever launches any attacks of his own, then has a hard time sticking to the those wheels he's sucking like some casting couch starlet when someone jumps off the front, and then gets dropped out of the lead group, he is actually racing according to some plan?
Maybe so. I'll freely admit that I might be wrong, but I sure don't see any "strategy" that he's using - unless passive riding is a new way to win on the podium. Can you explain this strategy, because to me it looks like he's just struggling to stay on - strong, but not strong enough. I think he might enjoy some cheese with his whine, given some of the things he's had to say about his team.
Sure it did.:rolleyes:
A rider who can ride faster than every other rider in the race in a TT without sucking wheels is not using strategy when he follows the wheels/races in a bunch; he must be "wheelsucking". Who's failing to see the real irony here? The irony is that the posters to this forum know so little about real racing that all they can do is call Cadel a wheelsucker when they see the strategy he's using. How many times does someone have to tell you people; he has no team. He is racing the way he must.
You may not know much about racing botto, but at least you're consistent. Instead of posting some coherent racing information, you resort to personal attack. But I don't mind 'splainin' it to ya.
I'm guilty of thinking that Cadel is a wheelsucker. So, if Cadel sits in the lead group all day, 4 or 5 spots in, hardly ever launches any attacks of his own, then has a hard time sticking to the those wheels he's sucking like some casting couch starlet when someone jumps off the front, and then gets dropped out of the lead group, he is actually racing according to some plan?
Maybe so. I'll freely admit that I might be wrong, but I sure don't see any "strategy" that he's using - unless passive riding is a new way to win on the podium. Can you explain this strategy, because to me it looks like he's just struggling to stay on - strong, but not strong enough. I think he might enjoy some cheese with his whine, given some of the things he's had to say about his team.
Sure it did.:rolleyes:
A rider who can ride faster than every other rider in the race in a TT without sucking wheels is not using strategy when he follows the wheels/races in a bunch; he must be "wheelsucking". Who's failing to see the real irony here? The irony is that the posters to this forum know so little about real racing that all they can do is call Cadel a wheelsucker when they see the strategy he's using. How many times does someone have to tell you people; he has no team. He is racing the way he must.
You may not know much about racing botto, but at least you're consistent. Instead of posting some coherent racing information, you resort to personal attack. But I don't mind 'splainin' it to ya.
dmotoguy
07-24-07, 02:12 PM
Cadel has to be a wheel sucker.. he has no team to help him out.
Its much easier to launch attacks once your team has been at the front for 20-30 minutes killing everyone's legs or if you know you will have help the following day, he has nothing so he uses other teams wheels to keep him competitive.
Its much easier to launch attacks once your team has been at the front for 20-30 minutes killing everyone's legs or if you know you will have help the following day, he has nothing so he uses other teams wheels to keep him competitive.
gcl8a
07-24-07, 02:13 PM
The big question is: does Moreau get his three minutes back from stage 11?
Smoothie104
07-24-07, 03:12 PM
Correct
skinny
07-24-07, 04:23 PM
didn't seem to get in the way of LeMond in the '89 Tour, or Salvodelli in the '05 Giro.:roflmao:
I love that you picked these two races as examples.
Greg fought just to follow the wheels on almost every stage in that race, including the road stage he won, stage 19, where he finished with a group containing Fignon, Theunisse, and Delgado. He outsprinted them for the win of course, but he was by no means the aggressor. Fignon was the aggressor throughout the Tour that year, with Lemond just trying to hang on. The only significant attack Lemond put in was on Stage 16 where he attacked over the top of the Izoard and used his descending skills to put time into Fignon. He won the TDF that year by winning time trials. Here is an account of that TDF:
http://www.cyclingrevealed.com/June06/top25-1.htm
As for Savoldelli in 2005, he won that race because Basso got sick and fell apart on the 13th stage. The one stage he won was the 11th, where he used his descending skills to outdistance Basso on the descent of the penultimate climb, and then when Basso caught him on the final ascent, just stayed with Basso and outsprinted him at the end. Savoldelli simply limited his losses to the key riders after stage 13 and did well in the ITT to take the overall. Savoldelli did virtually no attacking in the entire Giro.
Bott, I know you're new to this, but you've got to do better than this.
I love that you picked these two races as examples.
Greg fought just to follow the wheels on almost every stage in that race, including the road stage he won, stage 19, where he finished with a group containing Fignon, Theunisse, and Delgado. He outsprinted them for the win of course, but he was by no means the aggressor. Fignon was the aggressor throughout the Tour that year, with Lemond just trying to hang on. The only significant attack Lemond put in was on Stage 16 where he attacked over the top of the Izoard and used his descending skills to put time into Fignon. He won the TDF that year by winning time trials. Here is an account of that TDF:
http://www.cyclingrevealed.com/June06/top25-1.htm
As for Savoldelli in 2005, he won that race because Basso got sick and fell apart on the 13th stage. The one stage he won was the 11th, where he used his descending skills to outdistance Basso on the descent of the penultimate climb, and then when Basso caught him on the final ascent, just stayed with Basso and outsprinted him at the end. Savoldelli simply limited his losses to the key riders after stage 13 and did well in the ITT to take the overall. Savoldelli did virtually no attacking in the entire Giro.
Bott, I know you're new to this, but you've got to do better than this.
Lithuania
07-24-07, 04:29 PM
I was so looking forward to tommorow's stage.. but how do you watch and believe now?
Contador and Rasmussen can be doping like crazy but if they put on another show like they did the previous two stages I will be just as entertained as if they werent
Contador and Rasmussen can be doping like crazy but if they put on another show like they did the previous two stages I will be just as entertained as if they werent
Blaireau
07-24-07, 04:34 PM
:roflmao:
I love that you picked these two races as examples.
Greg fought just to follow the wheels on almost every stage in that race, including the road stage he won, stage 19, where he finished with a group containing Fignon, Theunisse, and Delgado. He outsprinted them for the win of course, but he was by no means the aggressor. Fignon was the aggressor throughout the Tour that year, with Lemond just trying to hang on. The only significant attack Lemond put in was on Stage 16 where he attacked over the top of the Izoard and used his descending skills to put time into Fignon. He won the TDF that year by winning time trials. Here is an account of that TDF:
http://www.cyclingrevealed.com/June06/top25-1.htm
As for Savoldelli in 2005, he won that race because Basso got sick and fell apart on the 13th stage. The one stage he won was the 11th, where he used his descending skills to outdistance Basso on the descent of the penultimate climb, and then when Basso caught him on the final ascent, just stayed with Basso and outsprinted him at the end. Savoldelli simply limited his losses to the key riders after stage 13 and did well in the ITT to take the overall. Savoldelli did virtually no attacking in the entire Giro.
Bott, I know you're new to this, but you've got to do better than this.
I love watching Botto getting "schooled" ..... :roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:
I love that you picked these two races as examples.
Greg fought just to follow the wheels on almost every stage in that race, including the road stage he won, stage 19, where he finished with a group containing Fignon, Theunisse, and Delgado. He outsprinted them for the win of course, but he was by no means the aggressor. Fignon was the aggressor throughout the Tour that year, with Lemond just trying to hang on. The only significant attack Lemond put in was on Stage 16 where he attacked over the top of the Izoard and used his descending skills to put time into Fignon. He won the TDF that year by winning time trials. Here is an account of that TDF:
http://www.cyclingrevealed.com/June06/top25-1.htm
As for Savoldelli in 2005, he won that race because Basso got sick and fell apart on the 13th stage. The one stage he won was the 11th, where he used his descending skills to outdistance Basso on the descent of the penultimate climb, and then when Basso caught him on the final ascent, just stayed with Basso and outsprinted him at the end. Savoldelli simply limited his losses to the key riders after stage 13 and did well in the ITT to take the overall. Savoldelli did virtually no attacking in the entire Giro.
Bott, I know you're new to this, but you've got to do better than this.
I love watching Botto getting "schooled" ..... :roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:
USAZorro
07-24-07, 08:37 PM
skinny,
I'm pretty sure botto's point here is that those two victories came in circumstances similar to Cadel's. Not much team support, and not riding aggressively. I didn't follow the '89 tour, but I know that in the 2005 Giro, Savoldelli didn't make excuses about not having team support. From Cadel's interviews, it seems he has the mindset of being defeated (mean old Rasmussen and Contador ganged up on me and left me behind. What was I to do with nobody to draft going up a 9% grade? Surely I can't ride up that hill by myself!)
That attitude is probably the greatest difference between Cadel and past champions. Suck it up man. Give it your best, and deal with the consequences. I'd be much more impressed by him quietly finishing fourth than I would be by him winning the tour and whining the way he has this past week.
:roflmao:
I love that you picked these two races as examples.
Greg fought just to follow the wheels on almost every stage in that race, including the road stage he won, stage 19, where he finished with a group containing Fignon, Theunisse, and Delgado. He outsprinted them for the win of course, but he was by no means the aggressor. Fignon was the aggressor throughout the Tour that year, with Lemond just trying to hang on. The only significant attack Lemond put in was on Stage 16 where he attacked over the top of the Izoard and used his descending skills to put time into Fignon. He won the TDF that year by winning time trials. Here is an account of that TDF:
http://www.cyclingrevealed.com/June06/top25-1.htm
As for Savoldelli in 2005, he won that race because Basso got sick and fell apart on the 13th stage. The one stage he won was the 11th, where he used his descending skills to outdistance Basso on the descent of the penultimate climb, and then when Basso caught him on the final ascent, just stayed with Basso and outsprinted him at the end. Savoldelli simply limited his losses to the key riders after stage 13 and did well in the ITT to take the overall. Savoldelli did virtually no attacking in the entire Giro.
Bott, I know you're new to this, but you've got to do better than this.
I'm pretty sure botto's point here is that those two victories came in circumstances similar to Cadel's. Not much team support, and not riding aggressively. I didn't follow the '89 tour, but I know that in the 2005 Giro, Savoldelli didn't make excuses about not having team support. From Cadel's interviews, it seems he has the mindset of being defeated (mean old Rasmussen and Contador ganged up on me and left me behind. What was I to do with nobody to draft going up a 9% grade? Surely I can't ride up that hill by myself!)
That attitude is probably the greatest difference between Cadel and past champions. Suck it up man. Give it your best, and deal with the consequences. I'd be much more impressed by him quietly finishing fourth than I would be by him winning the tour and whining the way he has this past week.
:roflmao:
I love that you picked these two races as examples.
Greg fought just to follow the wheels on almost every stage in that race, including the road stage he won, stage 19, where he finished with a group containing Fignon, Theunisse, and Delgado. He outsprinted them for the win of course, but he was by no means the aggressor. Fignon was the aggressor throughout the Tour that year, with Lemond just trying to hang on. The only significant attack Lemond put in was on Stage 16 where he attacked over the top of the Izoard and used his descending skills to put time into Fignon. He won the TDF that year by winning time trials. Here is an account of that TDF:
http://www.cyclingrevealed.com/June06/top25-1.htm
As for Savoldelli in 2005, he won that race because Basso got sick and fell apart on the 13th stage. The one stage he won was the 11th, where he used his descending skills to outdistance Basso on the descent of the penultimate climb, and then when Basso caught him on the final ascent, just stayed with Basso and outsprinted him at the end. Savoldelli simply limited his losses to the key riders after stage 13 and did well in the ITT to take the overall. Savoldelli did virtually no attacking in the entire Giro.
Bott, I know you're new to this, but you've got to do better than this.
skinny
07-24-07, 08:46 PM
skinny,
I'm pretty sure botto's point here is that those two victories came in circumstances similar to Cadel's.I think if you look at post #21, you'll see he was refuting the assertion that Cadel should be riding conservatively and following wheels. But no big deal. It should be obvious to everyone that riding conservatively and following wheels is an oft used strategy by GT winners. And the people calling Cadel a wheelsucker are basically full of *****. But Cadel doesn't give a rats ass about those people anyway because they just don't count.;)
By the way, who has won the TDF without winning a single stage? How conservative is that?
I'm pretty sure botto's point here is that those two victories came in circumstances similar to Cadel's.I think if you look at post #21, you'll see he was refuting the assertion that Cadel should be riding conservatively and following wheels. But no big deal. It should be obvious to everyone that riding conservatively and following wheels is an oft used strategy by GT winners. And the people calling Cadel a wheelsucker are basically full of *****. But Cadel doesn't give a rats ass about those people anyway because they just don't count.;)
By the way, who has won the TDF without winning a single stage? How conservative is that?
kleng
07-24-07, 09:00 PM
Aren't all the TDF team leaders by default wheelsuckers, they are protected riders with team mates towing them along.
Hezz
07-24-07, 09:25 PM
I'm sad, my wife was really getting into the tour this year, as were a lot of my friends who don't ride. I hate to sound cynical, but when Vino destroyed everyone in the TT, I thought aloud "god I hope he doesn't get busted" Now you have the allegations against Rasmussen, and Contador was mentioned brifely in Operation Puerto, but dismissed etc...and he rode for Liberty Seguros/Manolo Siaz as well....
Which brings me back to my attitude of "they all dope" which sucks.. especially when they get caught.. They say when the weapons are all equal, the strongest man still wins.. but I don't really know what to think anymore.
I was so looking forward to tommorow's stage.. but how do you watch and believe now? It's coming down to who has the best doctor's and is willing to take the most risks...
True, but in the history of the cosmos will it all matter. You have to be able to just enjoy the race for the moments of drama that it has. It doesn't doesn't really matter all that much who wins and looses. Does it really? Only financially to a few guys. How will that effect you or I. Does it really matter so much that we know who should be the true winner? Can we? In the end it's just a race. Have fun watching it if you like cycling. That is my advice. The peloton is just an example of the larger sickness of whats wrong with most of the world. Will it go away any time soon. I don't think so. We don't seem to care as much when our corporations and politicians cheat or do wrong or take advantage of the system to thier advantage so long as our stocks are doing well. Why do we hold bike racers up to higher standards. Especially when they often have higher personal pressures to perform and succeed.
Which brings me back to my attitude of "they all dope" which sucks.. especially when they get caught.. They say when the weapons are all equal, the strongest man still wins.. but I don't really know what to think anymore.
I was so looking forward to tommorow's stage.. but how do you watch and believe now? It's coming down to who has the best doctor's and is willing to take the most risks...
True, but in the history of the cosmos will it all matter. You have to be able to just enjoy the race for the moments of drama that it has. It doesn't doesn't really matter all that much who wins and looses. Does it really? Only financially to a few guys. How will that effect you or I. Does it really matter so much that we know who should be the true winner? Can we? In the end it's just a race. Have fun watching it if you like cycling. That is my advice. The peloton is just an example of the larger sickness of whats wrong with most of the world. Will it go away any time soon. I don't think so. We don't seem to care as much when our corporations and politicians cheat or do wrong or take advantage of the system to thier advantage so long as our stocks are doing well. Why do we hold bike racers up to higher standards. Especially when they often have higher personal pressures to perform and succeed.
classic1
07-24-07, 09:28 PM
so Wiggins must be given second place as all the others were Astana
Well done Bradley.
george
No. The other Astana placings will stand.
Well done Bradley.
george
No. The other Astana placings will stand.
classic1
07-25-07, 01:14 AM
skinny,
I'm pretty sure botto's point here is that those two victories came in circumstances similar to Cadel's. Not much team support, and not riding aggressively. I didn't follow the '89 tour, but I know that in the 2005 Giro, Savoldelli didn't make excuses about not having team support. From Cadel's interviews, it seems he has the mindset of being defeated (mean old Rasmussen and Contador ganged up on me and left me behind. What was I to do with nobody to draft going up a 9% grade? Surely I can't ride up that hill by myself!)
That attitude is probably the greatest difference between Cadel and past champions. Suck it up man. Give it your best, and deal with the consequences. I'd be much more impressed by him quietly finishing fourth than I would be by him winning the tour and whining the way he has this past week.
Either that, or don't read too much into what riders say when they are interviewed 30 seconds after crossing the finish line when they are tired, emotional and haven't had a chance to get their thoughts togther.
BTW, Lemonds 89 Tour victory was the greatest 'wheelsucker' Tour victory of all time.;)
I'm pretty sure botto's point here is that those two victories came in circumstances similar to Cadel's. Not much team support, and not riding aggressively. I didn't follow the '89 tour, but I know that in the 2005 Giro, Savoldelli didn't make excuses about not having team support. From Cadel's interviews, it seems he has the mindset of being defeated (mean old Rasmussen and Contador ganged up on me and left me behind. What was I to do with nobody to draft going up a 9% grade? Surely I can't ride up that hill by myself!)
That attitude is probably the greatest difference between Cadel and past champions. Suck it up man. Give it your best, and deal with the consequences. I'd be much more impressed by him quietly finishing fourth than I would be by him winning the tour and whining the way he has this past week.
Either that, or don't read too much into what riders say when they are interviewed 30 seconds after crossing the finish line when they are tired, emotional and haven't had a chance to get their thoughts togther.
BTW, Lemonds 89 Tour victory was the greatest 'wheelsucker' Tour victory of all time.;)
urodacus
07-25-07, 01:39 AM
why don't they just get Dr Ferrari arested and banned from contact with any cyclists? Stopping this sad **** from happening in the first place (by making it harder to get into an established doping factory) seems a much better idea all around than trying to clean up after the races. He seems to be a common thread in almost every doper's history, including Sir Lance the Hero.
oldsprinter
07-25-07, 01:56 AM
why don't they just get Dr Ferrari arested and banned from contact with any cyclists? Stopping this sad **** from happening in the first place (by making it harder to get into an established doping factory) seems a much better idea all around than trying to clean up after the races. He seems to be a common thread in almost every doper's history, including Sir Lance the Hero.
He's been arrested and beat the rap. The Tour, however, could simply say "Work with Ferrari and you don't start the Tour." T-Mobile has already told its riders that they can't work with Ferrari.
By the way, who knows which riders still do have contact with Ferrari? A list anyone?
He's been arrested and beat the rap. The Tour, however, could simply say "Work with Ferrari and you don't start the Tour." T-Mobile has already told its riders that they can't work with Ferrari.
By the way, who knows which riders still do have contact with Ferrari? A list anyone?
Jesse Smith
07-25-07, 04:09 AM
Cadel may know when NOT to pull, but he has a hard time understanding when he SHOULD pull. When you're the highest on GC, and those higher than you are up the road, it's up to YOU to chase. He threw a minor fit when Sastre and Levi weren't leading the chase of Chicken and Contador. Among his chase group, he was highest on GC, had the most to lose if the group ahead gained time. Levi had a teammate up the road. The situation dictated it was up to HIM to pull. Outsprinting Kloden for a minor placing, with no time bonuses attached ,it not good strategy if you want to save energy.