Triathlon - Winded in the pool

I'll try to make this short. I can bike and run forever without getting tired. However swimming always makes me winded. I have tried breathing every 2 strokes.. 3 strokes and up to 6 strokes.. I feel most natural at 3 but i'm always winded after about 200m. I don't think my technique is too terrible. Has any of you ever felt like this when you began to "really" swim? What helped you overcome? Yes I've only been trying to swim for about 2 months.. and I have only had a slight improvement. It's kind of frustrating.

i'm like you. I seemed to get short of breath all too soon.

Good thing i had a friend with me in the pool and she commented that it's to do with my breathing and she helped me with some exercises.

Did further research in the library, and discovered just as spinning on the bike pedals is essential to effective cycling, breathing properly is essential to good swimming.

Maybe can google for good instructional sites and/or also check out bookstores/libraries on this.

Hope this helps.

I have some advice given to me by my TI instructor that changed my swim and my entire triathlon experience.

Stop kicking.

I was just like you exhausted in the pool after a few hundred yards. Your legs do not provide much propulsion unless you are an elite swimmer, they only provide balance. I used to try to kick harder to stay afloat, but kicking more or harder was making me sink and causing more drag.

When you are thinking not to kick you will actually flick your feet as your turn which is all you need. But more importantly, you are now using only 1/2 your body in the pool, thus using less energy, thus keeping your heart rate down, thus requiring less oxygen. Plus now you are saving your legs for the bike and run. I'm telling you just try it, since my TI instructor told me to stop using my legs, it has made an amazing differnce in my swim times and stamina

Pace.

Kicking was the biggest thing for me too. And when doing tri's I find that if I save my legs during the swim I more than make up that time on the bike.

I was holding my breath when my head was underwater. That caused me to have oxygen debt quickly due to excess CO2 that comes with holding your breath. I gradually practiced and got used to releasing air (exhaling) under water, that helped tremendously in my case. I am now able to go consistently with slow pace (100 m in 1min) for almost 3000 yards non-stop.

Also I should say that my VO2 max gained from running now translates to my long distance swim performance. I am building swim base now and next I should try to work on speed. Hope this helps.

Wait, 100M in 1 min is slow? Crap.... Maybe you should just not listen to my advice then.

Yeah, not sure how 100m in 1min is slow.....

Sorry to threadjack but just how fast do you swim when you aren't taking it easy Long Legs?

Correction, my fault, 50 m in 1 minute. (I wish I could do 100m in 1 min)

I do exhale almost the entire time my mouth/nose are in the water. I learned that one myself a few weeks ago. I'll try not kicking as it makes sense that it's mostly wasting energy and i am definitely not an elite swimmer. Right now I'm swimming at that slow pace of 50yrds/1min. Any other comments on my breathing? Anyone find if breathing more often or less often helps them? Just for more info.. I have also learned to breathe on both sides. That was kind of a pain when I first started...

I am a bilateral breather for right or wrong reasons, but I personally prefer bilateral in TRIs to keep things at sight.

You may try bilateral, however I do not know if it will help you in breathing. You may give it a try.

Oh, 50y/min, that is about what I do when I'm pacing myself also. Good to know I'm not too far off the pace.

i was a competetive swimmer before i even thought of triathlons...so when i first started my swimming it was all about trying to blow the guy beside me out of the water. when i started i was like you and the swim totally drained me and it was because i simply aws not getting a large enough breath when i went to take one. just make sure your exhaling and don't be afraid to take a breath after 1-2 strokes for now and slowly move up in your stroke/breath ratio. also there is a drill we do that our coach taught us...for increasing lung capacity push of and swim for as long as you can without taking a breath and then when you do take your breath make it huge and then do it again. i can do like a lap on a breath now and i only swam for 4 months i think....but anyway hope that helps you.

Oh, 50y/min, that is about what I do when I'm pacing myself also. Good to know I'm not too far off the pace.

All,

I do not want to digress here, but as I recently figured out how to go relativley long (~3000 yards at 50m/1min pace), am I on right track? Just like running, I thought it would be good to build base and get into speed specific training later. As I was not able to swim this long like a month ago, I am getting a lot of satisfaction out of this, however I am not sure if this is smart training though.

I thought I can do 3000 yards in each session for 3-4 of weeks every other day (with running/bike in between), then I could get into 100 reps, 200 reps etc.

Does this seem like a correct approach? Any comments appreciated.

Not kicking is probably good advice, especially as you're coming from a running/cycling background. Many runners do not have enough flexibility in their feet to kick effectively, and in some cases may actually go backwards if they're just kicking.

Other than that, I'd say slow down. 50y/min isn't fast for a competitive swimmer, but if you're not a swimmer it may be too fast for you right now. Find a pace that you CAN sustain for whatever distance you're trying for.

Check out the instructional materials available from "Total Immersion" by Terry Laughlin.

I have one of his books (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FTriathlon-Swimming-Made-Easy-Open-Water%2Fdp%2F1931009074%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26qid%3D1185423067%26sr%3D8-3&tag=shastasoftwar-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325), and one of his DVD's (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FFreestyle-Made-Easy-Terry-Laughlin%2Fdp%2FB000FDK78W%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Ddvd%26qid%3D1185423067%26sr%3D8-2&tag=shastasoftwar-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325), and have found them very helpful.

Bottom line...water is 800 times denser than air. You can *not* out-muscle it. It's all about technique, and once you get the technique down you won't get winded, or you'll be a lot faster, or both.

Oh, and not kicking is good advice too...most of your movement through the water is generated by hip rotation and gliding. Kicking, for most of us, only helps to keep the legs level.

i was a competetive swimmer before i even thought of triathlons...so when i first started my swimming it was all about trying to blow the guy beside me out of the water. when i started i was like you and the swim totally drained me and it was because i simply aws not getting a large enough breath when i went to take one. just make sure your exhaling and don't be afraid to take a breath after 1-2 strokes for now and slowly move up in your stroke/breath ratio. also there is a drill we do that our coach taught us...for increasing lung capacity push of and swim for as long as you can without taking a breath and then when you do take your breath make it huge and then do it again. i can do like a lap on a breath now and i only swam for 4 months i think....but anyway hope that helps you.

That's a good drill you mentioned. Thanks for this bit of good advice; i'll try it on my next swim session.

I was a competitive swimmer for a very long time and now coach at the University and club team level. When reading this advice I was cringing in pain however that is simply because I am coming from a competitive background. 1min for a 100m swim would be VERY slow for my guys, we regularly hit these speeds in practice...however they are training specifically for swimming so that is a little different.

As far as swimming for tri's go it is a different type of philosophy. The advice for not kicking depends on the person. Most non swimmers tend to kick to hard. In tri's you really want to have a 2 or 4 beat kick (kicks per stroke) which will save your legs. Technique is the biggest thing you can work on. The TI (Total Immersion) work mentioned above is a great and there are many many books and dvds out there on the subject.

My best advice for getting better at swimming is finding a Masters Team. A lot of YMCA's have them and other club programs will also run masters programs. These are show and go practices with a professional coach. Sometimes there is a fee however normally it isn't to bad. If you cant find one of these programs, building base miles is great. However when you run/bike do you just run/ride for the sake of riding? No! (well hopefully). Intervals are your friend. Intervals will increase your endurance, vo2, and your speed. Also you need to evaluate your goal, are you only doing sprint tris, half, or full? These are all things to consider cause you need to know what distance you are training for.

I was a competitive swimmer for a very long time and now coach at the University and club team level. When reading this advice I was cringing in pain however that is simply because I am coming from a competitive background. 1min for a 100m swim would be VERY slow for my guys, we regularly hit these speeds in practice...however they are training specifically for swimming so that is a little different.
1 minute for a 100m is one thing (although it's still quite fast for anyone but competitive swimmers), sustaining 100m/min over a triathlon distance is something else.

I did my tri today and did the 500m in 10:23. I would have done better but I looked at my watch at about 350m and got too excited and messed up my rhythm. I would have done sub 10... next time I won't look at the damn watch. here is the thread about the tri... http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=326500

1 minute for a 100m is one thing (although it's still quite fast for anyone but competitive swimmers), sustaining 100m/min over a triathlon distance is something else.

You also have the advantage of flip turn kicks in the pool, with each turn you end up going almost 1/3 of short course pool, if you are swimming in short course. Open water long distance have no such advantage, you just keep hammering.

I find these 1 min/100m times etc quite confusing, those who can flip-turn better usually wins swimming races, so these times are not benchmark at all for triathlon.

I don't do the flipturns.. I'm a newbie to swimming. I've tried and i either end up doing it perfectly or i get water up my nose... so i just don't do them.. maybe i should practice them.. i'm sure it would have improved my time..

I don't either and the last time I did 750 m for a tri it was in about 13:30. You will improve and get under 10 pretty soon if you keep up the work. I'm about to move and have a pool everyday so I'm excited to be able to get wet again.

I've found a couple things have helped me enormously: First I learned the bilateral breathing and now it feels so normal I don't know which side I use to use exclusively; second the interval training has not only built up my speed and stamina, its also increased my self-confidence that I can handle the intensity of the water; and third I use a pull-bouy, which helps me ignore my lower body and just focus on the upper, and also gives me a bit of the feel of being in my wetsuit.

I'm from a running/cycling background, so swimming is kinda of a hard thing for me. Thanks for the advice on using the upper body and not so much the legs, I went out to get the pull-bouy(?) floatation device to help me concentrate on my upper body technique during swims. It has helped!

Swim more. Seriously, swim more and you'll figure it out.

I don't do the flipturns.. I'm a newbie to swimming. I've tried and i either end up doing it perfectly or i get water up my nose... so i just don't do them.. maybe i should practice them.. i'm sure it would have improved my time..
Perfecting flip turns would make a huge difference, particularly if you're swimming in a short-course (25 yards) pool: shorter pool = more turns = more chances to gain time.

When my wife and I started to swim together, I was lapping her about every 250 yards, and most of the difference was from turns. Mind you, she was actually doing flip turns, just really slow flip turns, having never really gotten good at it when she was on the swim team back in the day. If she had been doing non-flip turns, the difference would have been even bigger.

This site (http://swimming.about.com/cs/techniquetips/a/flipturn.htm) has pretty good instructions to get you started.

the only way to get better at flip turns is just to do them, there are a couple of things you could do wrong, getting to close to the wall or to far away can mess you up but once you figure out your sweet spot and practice it its like clockwork. even a bad flip turn is faster than stopping, but they will mess with your breathing when you first start. take advantage of the kick and the time underwater of course.

the only way to get better at flip turns is just to do them, there are a couple of things you could do wrong, getting to close to the wall or to far away can mess you up but once you figure out your sweet spot and practice it its like clockwork. even a bad flip turn is faster than stopping, but they will mess with your breathing when you first start. take advantage of the kick and the time underwater of course.

I thought you would not care about flip turns, if your goal is open water/triathlon swimming.
You can brag about better lap pool times with faster flip turns, but in essence, you are not loosing anything by not doing flip turns.

In fact, I wish I had endless pool to simulate for open water/triathlon swim without any nuisance like flip turns.

I thought you would not care about flip turns, if your goal is open water/triathlon swimming.
You can brag about better lap pool times with faster flip turns, but in essence, you are not loosing anything by not doing flip turns.

In fact, I wish I had endless pool to simulate for open water/triathlon swim without any nuisance like flip turns.
Some tris are in pools, not in open water.

Some tris are in pools, not in open water.

Some of us who are from a little further north like swimming in pools because...well it is cold as he!! in open water swims!

Not doing flip turns also gives you another chance to breathe. You won't have that extra advantage during a tri swim, so training with the least amount of breathing chances gives you better endurance. You spend a lot of time out of the water if you don't do a flip turn.

nice thread about swimming. makes me miss it.
I was a competitive swimmer, and swam regularly on my own until I got heavily into biking.
I REALLY wish I could do a tri, but I can't run for the life of me, and I'd like to find a tri in which the swimming is done in a pool, not open water.

anyway, I think 50m/1min is a good pace to start with here. 100m/1min is fast even for many competitive swimmers to keep up. As for the not kicking suggestion, I'd probably say less kicking rather than not kicking, and if you're not kicking use a pull buoy between your legs.

I'd caution on the pull buoy. It's okay if you are just going for endurance in a pool or learning to swim but if you are trying to be competitive or going for tri's or something like that then stay away from them. If you get used to it then you can't use it for competition you will find the swim much harder. I agree with Geo, kick less. If you stop altogether your legs will sink.

I recommended the pull buoy because it might be a good way for a novice swimmer who kicks too much to kinda get his/her legs in line and better work on technique. I don't recommend using it all the time every time, but if you need to get used to kicking less and smoothing out your stroke, it might help to start with it.

Everything in moderation.

Pullbuoys (PB's) are good as a training tool. They should be used now and then during training however not used all the time. PB use has a lot of benefits.

Also with the not kicking thing. This is one of those instances where you tell someone not to kick, knowing that they will kick a little bit. Non competitive swimmers have a horrible kick and often try to hard on the kick, telling them not to kick will often times just lessen it which is the overall goal.

This is the best swim thread I have read...

I learned the most by watching *real* swimmers in the pool. I note their form, pace, breathing and basically what they do differently from me. A few min of that over a few months has helped me a ton...

As a complete novice tri-swimmer, would fartlek type training work in the pool? Because I am new I don't have an endurance pace down very well and so I go back between three strokes (freestyle .5, breast .25, side .25) to "recover". I do this for ~800m (x2) where I would do one length a easy stroke and then fly back freestyle.

This seems to have helped me, at least build confidence in the pool and I notice less breathing problems when I concentrate on speed. I can't seem to swim (free) "slower", it just throws everything off...any suggestings?

This is the best swim thread I have read...

I learned the most by watching *real* swimmers in the pool. I note their form, pace, breathing and basically what they do differently from me. A few min of that over a few months has helped me a ton...

As a complete novice tri-swimmer, would fartlek type training work in the pool? Because I am new I don't have an endurance pace down very well and so I go back between three strokes (freestyle .5, breast .25, side .25) to "recover". I do this for ~800m (x2) where I would do one length a easy stroke and then fly back freestyle.

This seems to have helped me, at least build confidence in the pool and I notice less breathing problems when I concentrate on speed. I can't seem to swim (free) "slower", it just throws everything off...any suggestings?
I would keep working on swimming freestyle at a sustainable pace. Maybe try to get a coach if need be. But you'll find that if you can get comfortable with it, even slow freestyle is faster than backstroke and especially breaststroke.

Fartlek-style workouts would definitely help you get faster, though.

here is an update.. I guess slowly I am getting better. More laps i guess...

first race was..
2007-06-09 00:19:00 | 880 yards | 2m 10s / 100yards
second race
2007-07-28 00:10:23 | 500 yards | 2m 05s / 100yards
third race
2007-08-04 00:17:32 | 880 yards | 1m 59s / 100yards

it looks like i'm dropping 5 seconds per 100yrds... :) must keep swimming!

here is an update.. I guess slowly I am getting better. More laps i guess...

first race was..
2007-06-09 00:19:00 | 880 yards | 2m 10s / 100yards
second race
2007-07-28 00:10:23 | 500 yards | 2m 05s / 100yards
third race
2007-08-04 00:17:32 | 880 yards | 1m 59s / 100yards

it looks like i'm dropping 5 seconds per 100yrds... :) must keep swimming!
Good for you! How's your stamina, compared to when you started this thread?

Good for you! How's your stamina, compared to when you started this thread?

I noticed that I wasn't tired when I got out of the lake this last weekend. It felt good.. but I know I need more work.