Bicycle Mechanics - Chain in a Knot

Hi, I'm going to install electric components on my Niji Bike from the early 80s, so as a first step, I took it apart in order to clean it. However, during this process, the gear (on a Shimano RS system) recieving the chain from the pedals, was feeding it and the other gear, vice versa. So I flipped the chain, only to get these strange knots, I was hoping someone could tell me how to resolve this issue:


http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/9892/bicycle003yx9.th.jpg (http://img513.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bicycle003yx9.jpg)

Close-up of the chain knots:
http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/1154/bicycle004re3.th.jpg (http://img518.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bicycle004re3.jpg)

I'm not sure what you're attempting, but you're not going to turn a chain "inside out" without breaking it first. By "breaking" it I mean disconnecting a link.

Yes, please ellaborate on what you meant by "flipped the chain"

It is a simple puzzle, the chain is "endless" It just needs be be untangled.

It is a simple puzzle, the chain is "endless" It just needs be be untangled.


+1

Simple puzzle, but easier to work if you can remove the master link and or pin and remove the chain from the derailleurs.

Flipped the chain as in I rotated it 180 degrees, vertically. I can't untangle it somehow. And yes I know I'm being a real n00b here.

Flipped the chain as in I rotated it 180 degrees, vertically. I can't untangle it somehow. And yes I know I'm being a real n00b here.

it can be untangled. it just takes patience young padawan.

For every loop in the chain there has to be an equal and opposite loop. Even when you narrow it down to the last two loops it may seem impossible to invert them while the chain is threaded through the frame. I succeeded with a similar puzzle, but don't ask how it happened, I kept on fiddling knowing that if it could get into that position, then it can get out too.

It is a simple puzzle, the chain is "endless" It just needs be be untangled.

it can be untangled. it just takes patience young padawan.
I once had a rubix cube and spent months trying to figure it out. The solution for me was to buy a brand new cube. In the same spirit, I would rather just break the chain :D

I once had a rubix cube and spent months trying to figure it out. The solution for me was to buy a brand new cube. In the same spirit, I would rather just break the chain :D

I am reminded of Alexanders solution to the Gordian Knot...

Alexanders solution to the Gordian Knot

Can you ring him up for me please? This isn't the kind of problem that can be solved with a hammer or propane torch to my misfortune.

the chain just flipped on itself a few times, follow the tangles through, and just flip the chain over. The chain is circular, so it can't be knotted, if it got there, you can reverse it.

I thought at first that you were trying to reverse the chain, that is, make the inside, the outside. ( for wear purposes ) I see now that wasn't your original intent, but that is probably where you have ended up.

I think that when you try to untangle it, you are trying to untangle it the wrong way. You are trying to make the inside the outside. That is impossible without braking the chain. If you can't untangle it one way, try the other. Does this make sense? You can rotate something like a rope along its length when it is looped, but not a chain. Simplest answer is get a chain breaker and a master link.

;-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Alexander_cuts_the_Gordian_Knot.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Alexander_cuts_the_Gordian_Knot.jpg

Riding thru the neighborhood I spied a Hardrock Specialized in the TRASH. Both tires flat, back wheel removed, and the chain is looped just like this one!

I asked the people living there, they said it was being tossed out. On closer inspection it looks almost new. No rust, dust or wear. The brakes look new, the rims look good. WTF??? I can only guess they took the tire off to fix the flat, somehow got the chain tangled and just decided to chuck it.

I loaded the frame on my shoulders and carried the loose wheel on the handlebars home. This afternoon I futzed with the chain for a half hour with no luck.

I see a chain tool in my future.

I am reminded of Alexanders solution to the Gordian Knot...

And look how he ended up!

Don't break the chain; pour yourself a glass of whatever calms you best (Oban on the rocks, anyone?) and just take your time.

You can do it.

Chain tool & 30 seconds or two hours of frustration and an ulcer?

Can I get back to you on this?

Once you get it untangled you should give it a good lube with Sheldon's special system.

Chain tool & 30 seconds or two hours of frustration and an ulcer?

Can I get back to you on this?

Chain pins are an interference fit, which means they rely on friction to stay in place.

I've always felt one should not break a chain unnecessarily, that it compromises the integrity.

I could be wrong.

HOWEVER

I have untangled many bike chains, and if it will really take 2 hours and possibly cause an ulcer maybe bicycle mechanics is a bit beyond someone's reach...

I have untangled many bike chains, and if it will really take 2 hours and possibly cause an ulcer maybe bicycle mechanics is a bit beyond someone's reach...

If you're drinking Oban, you can afford a chain tool. Hell, you can just replace the chain.

Chain pins are an interference fit, which means they rely on friction to stay in place.

I've always felt one should not break a chain unnecessarily, that it compromises the integrity.

I agree somewhat, but the one advantage to those stupid break-off pins you have to use with Shimano is that you can tell where you broke the chain before, and never break the same place twice. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link, so if it's been broken once, it has a "compromised" location already. But yes, I wouldn't just break and reattach a chain willy nilly... but I also don't tangle my chains either.

I had a tangled chain today. I realized that the pesky loops always occur in pairs. So if you work on eliminating two at a time, it's no problem.

If you're drinking Oban, you can afford a chain tool. Hell, you can just replace the chain.

Zacly ;)

Chain pins are an interference fit, which means they rely on friction to stay in place.

I've always felt one should not break a chain unnecessarily, that it compromises the integrity.

I could be wrong.

HOWEVER

I have untangled many bike chains, and if it will really take 2 hours and possibly cause an ulcer maybe bicycle mechanics is a bit beyond someone's reach...

Maybe, but I don't tangle chains. Just giving OP an alternative. :)

u will have to get a new one looking at them.

The funny thing here is if you have had a chain tangle like this and took a moment to really look at it you will realize that it just isn't that hard to undo.

It's hard to put into writing but one section has doubled over itself; once you identify that section it's no big deal to straighten it out.

You don't have to break the chain, Oban or not.

it's a bit of a pain, but they do undo. i did the same thing (looks like the same number of loops too) with the chain on my 3 speed when i tried to remove bits of it for cleaning in the tub in my teeny apt. after some frustration and foul words, took a break and it just opened right up.

Get a chain tool. 5 minutes and I was back peddling. Pretty simple really.

Is the OP serious about his 'problem'? Try this: find a 'loop' in the chain and hold the loop part. Let the chain dangle and it will untwist itself. Repeat for all loops.

I've always felt one should not break a chain unnecessarily, that it compromises the integrity.

The chain dates back to about 1984 and according to a bicycle book I read, the recommended change interval is 3 years... ouch.

This is absolutely silly, not only because of the time spent on a simple mistake but because most of you missed one fact. If the chain is rotated 180 degrees (and the opposite side of the chain is now facing out) and then the derailleur is reattached with it in that position, it will be twisted in a way that can't be corrected without breaking the chain UNLESS you take it out of the rear derailleur and rotate it back the right way. Then it's simply a matter of bringing the two loops together to cancel each other out. Many, many newbie mechanics have made that mistake when removing a derailleur from the rear dropout and then replacing it later.

I had a tangled chain today. I realized that the pesky loops always occur in pairs. So if you work on eliminating two at a time, it's no problem.

+20

If you don't have to break the chain, don't. It weakens it, and you will probably have to work out a stiff link. It might be a good idea to get a new chain though, if the freewheel is not too worn.

One word: Wipperman
http://www.connexchain.com/

Being able to successfully use a chain tool is essential to basic bicycle mechanics. Knowing how to use one properly usually won"t result in a weak pin or stiff link. http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=25

If the "knot" is that frustrating and the chain is 23 years old...just replace it. I recommend a Wipperman stainless steel, w/ connex link (no chain tool needed). Since it's stainless it won't really rust and with proper care it might actually last 23 years. Although any chain that old = ride at your own risk.

This is absolutely silly, not only because of the time spent on a simple mistake but because most of you missed one fact. If the chain is rotated 180 degrees (and the opposite side of the chain is now facing out) and then the derailleur is reattached with it in that position, it will be twisted in a way that can't be corrected without breaking the chain UNLESS you take it out of the rear derailleur and rotate it back the right way. Then it's simply a matter of bringing the two loops together to cancel each other out. Many, many newbie mechanics have made that mistake when removing a derailleur from the rear dropout and then replacing it later.

YES! :beer:

Flipped the chain as in I rotated it 180 degrees, vertically. I can't untangle it somehow. And yes I know I'm being a real n00b here.

You cannot invert/flip a bicycle chain without breaking it.** There isn't enough side play relative to the plate width. Trying to do so will result in the tangled mess pictured. (If you have the idea of extending wear by flipping it, forget it. It doesn't work that way.)

Buy a chain tool and learn to use it. Buy a new chain and use it.


** I know there are doubting thomases out there, so get a chain, make it into a loop, and try to flip it. Report pitiful failure here.

Please visit my Five Fingered Blog at http://baltimorefivefinger.blogspot.com/2010/06/un-knotting-or-unlooping-bike-chain.html (http://baltimorefivefinger.blogspot.com/2010/06/un-knotting-or-unlooping-bike-chain.html). I have a picture tutorial on how to get loops out of your chain. This happened to me twice before I decided to find out why they happen and how to fix them.

You dredge up this 3 year old thread and another one year old thread as well just to SPAM your website? Nice way to make an entrance!

Riding thru the neighborhood I spied a Hardrock Specialized in the TRASH. Both tires flat, back wheel removed, and the chain is looped just like this one!

I asked the people living there, they said it was being tossed out. On closer inspection it looks almost new. No rust, dust or wear. The brakes look new, the rims look good. WTF??? I can only guess they took the tire off to fix the flat, somehow got the chain tangled and just decided to chuck it.

I loaded the frame on my shoulders and carried the loose wheel on the handlebars home. This afternoon I futzed with the chain for a half hour with no luck.

I see a chain tool in my future.


I once found a JaParamount Series 3 in the trash sans handlebars. I sold it for $350.

Better yet, get a chain tool and a master link.

This is a loopy situation requiring a loopy solution executed by someone in a loopy frame of mind.

A hit and a shot should get you started...

=8-)

Thank you for answering my question, however, the original post goes back to 2007 and I have repaired my chain since then.

My favorite reply was with "Alexander cuts the Gordian Knot"... you certainly have class.