Seemed to be alot of tension btwn Al and Phil this morning. Al basically accused contador of cheating on air. Suddenly Al is a doping expert.

I think Al was the most honest out of any of them, aside from Phil's comment about how riders go to the mountains alone to "prepare" (he used the quotation marks hand signs) with EPO, altitude training, doctors etc. and then ten days later you can't detect it. I was surprised he said that.

I think Al was the most honest out of any of them, aside from Phil's comment about how riders go to the mountains alone to "prepare" (he used the quotation marks hand signs) with EPO, altitude training, doctors etc. and then ten days later you can't detect it. I was surprised he said that.

It's not like he just figured it out. I think they are all acting like politicians jumping on the popular bandwagon without even thinking about it. I for one still think Vino and Rassmussen are great champions regardless. jmo.

Seemed to be alot of tension btwn Al and Phil this morning. Al basically accused contador of cheating on air. Suddenly Al is a doping expert.

Contador is a cheat. He should be thrown out. If the team and the race organizers won't do it, then the peloton should push him out.

Paul made the best point about Rass. No one doubted that he was a great climber, but his much much better than typical time-trial was a bit suspicious.

Same thing with Landis. He follows a truly awful day with one of the great rides of that years tour. In fact he rode much much better than anyone had ever seen him do before. I don't want to make it sound like all riders who put in great performances are doping, but one needs to look at their previous performances when trying to judge whether something illegal is occuring.

"but one needs to look at their previous performances when trying to judge whether something illegal is occuring"

So what about Contador's duel with Chicken a couple days ago? Contador sure couldn't back it up yesterday.

Why is Contador a cheat?

Paul made the best point about Rass. No one doubted that he was a great climber, but his much much better than typical time-trial was a bit suspicious.

Same thing with Landis. He follows a truly awful day with one of the great rides of that years tour. In fact he rode much much better than anyone had ever seen him do before. I don't want to make it sound like all riders who put in great performances are doping, but one needs to look at their previous performances when trying to judge whether something illegal is occuring.

Hasn't that been the crux of LeMond's argument?, one that he has taken a lot of greif for on this board? That guys who couldn't even carry his water bottles in the past were suddenly laying hurt on the peleton? That something changed in Pro Cycling?

Contador is a cheat. He should be thrown out. If the team and the race organizers won't do it, then the peloton should push him out.

I'm glad you have proof of this. I hope you will forward your evidence to the appropriate authorities as soon as possible. Of course, you DO have proof? You wouldn't just be making this up?

Al seemed to be asking tough questions but I didn't notice any direct tension between him and Phil. What was it Al said specifically that labelled Contador a cheat?

Just adding this as food for thought:

Copied from Wiki...

Alberto Contador Velasco (born 6 December 1982) is a professional road bicycle racer for UCI ProTeam Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team. While he competes for the overall titles, he is considered a climbing specialist.
An early career highlight is his Stage 5 victory in the 2005 Tour Down Under, his first win after overcoming a massive blood clot in his brain, for which he underwent a risky surgery and a long, painful road to recovery to get back on his bike. The blood clot was discovered after he crashed and went into convulsions during the first stage of the 2004 Vuelta a Asturias. He suffered headaches for several days before the first stage. While it is impossible to difinitively say what caused the blood clot, steroid and especially EPO use are known to cause such clots. Such doping agents are common among professional cyclists.
Following the demise of the Manolo Saiz run Liberty Seguros-Würth team, Contador was without a professional contract until mid-January 2007, when he signed with Discovery Channel under a cloud of suspicion over the Operacion Puerto doping scandal.

Just adding this as food for thought:

Copied from Wiki...

Alberto Contador Velasco (born 6 December 1982) is a professional road bicycle racer for UCI ProTeam Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team. While he competes for the overall titles, he is considered a climbing specialist.
An early career highlight is his Stage 5 victory in the 2005 Tour Down Under, his first win after overcoming a massive blood clot in his brain, for which he underwent a risky surgery and a long, painful road to recovery to get back on his bike. The blood clot was discovered after he crashed and went into convulsions during the first stage of the 2004 Vuelta a Asturias. He suffered headaches for several days before the first stage. While it is impossible to difinitively say what caused the blood clot, steroid and especially EPO use are known to cause such clots. Such doping agents are common among professional cyclists.
Following the demise of the Manolo Saiz run Liberty Seguros-Würth team, Contador was without a professional contract until mid-January 2007, when he signed with Discovery Channel under a cloud of suspicion over the Operacion Puerto doping scandal.

Hmmm.

tmggiant, people like you make cheating seem OK. Rasmussen and Vino cannot be judged. We cannot tell if they are good bike riders or not because we have not seen 'them' ride.

Hasn't that been the crux of LeMond's argument?, one that he has taken a lot of greif for on this board? That guys who couldn't even carry his water bottles in the past were suddenly laying hurt on the peleton? That something changed in Pro Cycling?

Yep. The TDF really changed in the 90s. It got so huge and involved so much potential sponsor money that the pressure to perform well became huge. That combined with the ever increasing average speed of the tour lead to a lot of riders willing to do anything to be part of it. Things got out of hand. Oh yeah, the average speed of the winner in 1975 was 34 kmh. In 2005 it was 41.

Hasn't that been the crux of LeMond's argument?, one that he has taken a lot of greif for on this board? That guys who couldn't even carry his water bottles in the past were suddenly laying hurt on the peleton? That something changed in Pro Cycling?

Basically, yeah. LeMond was at the forefront of scientific training methods in the late '80s - I don't mean doping but rather heart rate monitoring, power output monitoring, etc. He says that in '91 he KNEW - scientifically - that he was in the best shape of his life but all of a sudden he was having trouble staying in the peloton's draft. He blames doping simply because he and his doctors were unable to find anything wrong with him.

Now with Contador the suspicions come from several things. He's looked like Superman every day for the past 2.5 weeks, he's set to become one of the youngest TdF champs ever and he's kinda come from nowhere this season. Yeah, he'd shown himself to be a talented young guy in the past but all of a sudden he's dominant.

C

I'm glad you have proof of this. I hope you will forward your evidence to the appropriate authorities as soon as possible. Of course, you DO have proof? You wouldn't just be making this up?

Read Ant and Oldsprinters stuff

Must be really tough for Phil and co. to get excited about stages, stage winners, grand performances, etc. thinking that one of them might get done for doping tomorrow.

Just adding this as food for thought:

Copied from Wiki...

Alberto Contador Velasco (born 6 December 1982) is a professional road bicycle racer for UCI ProTeam Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team. While he competes for the overall titles, he is considered a climbing specialist.
An early career highlight is his Stage 5 victory in the 2005 Tour Down Under, his first win after overcoming a massive blood clot in his brain, for which he underwent a risky surgery and a long, painful road to recovery to get back on his bike. The blood clot was discovered after he crashed and went into convulsions during the first stage of the 2004 Vuelta a Asturias. He suffered headaches for several days before the first stage. While it is impossible to difinitively say what caused the blood clot, steroid and especially EPO use are known to cause such clots. Such doping agents are common among professional cyclists.
Following the demise of the Manolo Saiz run Liberty Seguros-Würth team, Contador was without a professional contract until mid-January 2007, when he signed with Discovery Channel under a cloud of suspicion over the Operacion Puerto doping scandal.

Would you really dope again if the last time (possibly) almosed freakin KILLED YOU, PUT YOU IN A COMA, and now you have a titanium plate in your head, which according to sources on National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation, when you use the microwave, make you piss your pants and forget who you are for a half hour or so? I would put Contador and David Millar in the same boat at this point, except I think Contador's lesson learned was probably (and unfortunately) more appropriate.

Oh yeah, the average speed of the winner in 1975 was 34 kmh. In 2005 it was 41.

Obviously due to carbon fiber seat posts.

Obviously due to carbon fiber seat posts.

:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::beer:

Obviously due to carbon fiber seat posts.

LOL! I thought it was Clif Bars but I stand corrected.

Would you really dope again if the last time (possibly) almosed freakin KILLED YOU, PUT YOU IN A COMA, and now you have a titanium plate in your head, which according to sources on National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation, when you use the microwave, make you piss your pants and forget who you are for a half hour or so? I would put Contador and David Millar in the same boat at this point, except I think Contador's lesson learned was probably (and unfortunately) more appropriate.


why would that make a difference?

would you dope after almost losing your life to cancer and having a testicle removed?

man the naivete surrounding atheletes and doping is staggering :eek:!

ed rader

man the naivete surrounding atheletes and doping is staggering :eek:!

ed rader

+ 1

Understatement of the decade.

LOL! I thought it was Clif Bars but I stand corrected.

You're all wrong. It was titanium chain ring bolts.

Nope.. It's the Carbon Fiber Water Bottle cages

Holy crap--I have those. I'm in!

One thing you have to remember... when you take ANYTHING to enhance your performance.. FOR years... you are like an addict. How many of you can give up your cup of "caffine" in the morning... When someone is addicted to ANY substance it is very difficult to give up....
When are we going to admit that professional sports a FULL of cheaters... and cycling is no different.

Al seemed to be asking tough questions but I didn't notice any direct tension between him and Phil. What was it Al said specifically that labelled Contador a cheat?

Whe he said that Cadel Evans should be given the Yellow Jersey ahead of Contador, because is summation here "Cadel Evans suffered the most in the mountains" and Contador was doing a performance that he didnt think was possible without drugs.

Pretty bold statement.

Paul made the best point about Rass. No one doubted that he was a great climber, but his much much better than typical time-trial was a bit suspicious.

Same thing with Landis. He follows a truly awful day with one of the great rides of that years tour. In fact he rode much much better than anyone had ever seen him do before. I don't want to make it sound like all riders who put in great performances are doping, but one needs to look at their previous performances when trying to judge whether something illegal is occuring.So-called "superhuman" rides are more often a product of peloton laziness, misjudgement, or just plain stupidity than superhuman abilities. Pereiro's 30 minute breakaway in last year's Tour succeeded, not because the peloton couldn't catch him, but because nobody gave a damn. Floyd's "Miracle at Morzine" was another case where the peloton didn't chase. They were waiting for him to crack. He didn't. When Ras got the yellow jersey, the peloton let him go, because "everybody knew" he couldn't time trial. Modern communications between teams and their DS make it relatively easy to plan and execute a chase, if the DS want to chase.

Things were different, back in the bad old days, but today, the peloton can catch, or at least limit the GC gain, of nearly any breakaway, IF THEY WANT TO. They don't always want to.

Whe he said that Cadel Evans should be given the Yellow Jersey ahead of Contador, because is summation here "Cadel Evans suffered the most in the mountains" and Contador was doing a performance that he didnt think was possible without drugs.

Pretty bold statement.

Given that logic, who's in last place? He obviously suffered a lot more, if only from embarrassment. Give him the yellow.

Let's start convicting riders based on performance. If they're too good, they're disqualified. Sometimes these TV guys really confirm why they're not brain surgeons.

Given that logic, who's in last place? He obviously suffered a lot more, if only from embarrassment. Give him the yellow.

Let's start convicting riders based on performance. If they're too good, they're disqualified. Sometimes these TV guys really confirm why they're not brain surgeons.Actually, they USED to be brain surgeons, until they removed their own brains. :D

Oh yeah, the average speed of the winner in 1975 was 34 kmh. In 2005 it was 41.

You know a ton about racing. One of the very few out here that actually knows what he is talking about (and it's good to see you back)...

But, in 1969 the average speed (35.409kph) was faster than in 1975...

And on the pictured bike, the average speed was 25kph in 1903...horrible frame, one gear, terrible tires. No teams, no team cars, stages hundreds of miles long, all repair work done yourself. No spare bike, no DS yelling in your ear. Every man for himself.

I'll agree that with the help of the medical profession, sports has changed. A lot. But don't dismiss the equipment factor entirely...I chuckle because the frame I rode three years ago is basically obsolete today.

Whe he said that Cadel Evans should be given the Yellow Jersey ahead of Contador, because is summation here "Cadel Evans suffered the most in the mountains" and Contador was doing a performance that he didnt think was possible without drugs.

Pretty bold statement.

Don't remember that but I believe you and your interpretation is a logical conclusion.

Oddly this year, Al - though still hokey and dorky - has been asking alot of good questions to sorta play through different strategies and tactics.

So-called "superhuman" rides are more often a product of peloton laziness, misjudgement, or just plain stupidity than superhuman abilities. Pereiro's 30 minute breakaway in last year's Tour succeeded, not because the peloton couldn't catch him, but because nobody gave a damn. Floyd's "Miracle at Morzine" was another case where the peloton didn't chase. They were waiting for him to crack. He didn't. When Ras got the yellow jersey, the peloton let him go, because "everybody knew" he couldn't time trial. Modern communications between teams and their DS make it relatively easy to plan and execute a chase, if the DS want to chase.

Things were different, back in the bad old days, but today, the peloton can catch, or at least limit the GC gain, of nearly any breakaway, IF THEY WANT TO. They don't always want to.

+1. I remember lots of discussion as to why the peloton didn't chase. The general conclussion was that they thought they would crack and catch them later. They just used the wrong "strategerie"!

Back to the original post....

I have not seen them yet commenting on the current affair. But I have had the impression all along that Phil and Al don't get along. Phil was constantly ragging on Al with their yellow jersey competition. Kidding Al about always pick Thor in the sprints. Maybe just good fun, but I sensed that Phil has a little something against Al. I'll watch the segment in question tonight to see if it's any worse.

Don't remember that but I believe you and your interpretation is a logical conclusion.

Oddly this year, Al - though still hokey and dorky - has been asking alot of good questions to sorta play through different strategies and tactics.

He indeed said this. . .I tivo'ed it and went back several times to make sure I understood it correctly.

Al essentially said that Contador is a cheat and that the 'peloton' should decide to give Evan's the yellow jersey as a statement.

Phil/Paul said 'that ain't gonna happen'(para).

Back to the original post....

I have not seen them yet commenting on the current affair. But I have had the impression all along that Phil and Al don't get along. Phil was constantly ragging on Al with their yellow jersey competition. Kidding Al about always pick Thor in the sprints. Maybe just good fun, but I sensed that Phil has a little something against Al. I'll watch the segment in question tonight to see if it's any worse.

Interesting post. I can understand Phil's irritation at Al basically being an ignoramus on pro-cycling, but sympathize with AL's outrage this morning with respect to doping....
Let us what else transpires if anything ....

Al's and Phil's reactions have been pretty merciless and almost hateful regarding Vino, Moreni, and Rasmussen, whereas Bob and Paul seem more lenient and sympathetic. Regarding Vino, Bob said he must have "lost his mind" to resort to what he did, whereas Phil called him a "dirty cheat" who should be thrown out for good, etc. Sheesh, I almost expected Phil and Al to say they should be dragged out and thrown to the lions.

So-called "superhuman" rides are more often a product of peloton laziness, misjudgement, or just plain stupidity than superhuman abilities. Pereiro's 30 minute breakaway in last year's Tour succeeded, not because the peloton couldn't catch him, but because nobody gave a damn. Floyd's "Miracle at Morzine" was another case where the peloton didn't chase. They were waiting for him to crack. He didn't. When Ras got the yellow jersey, the peloton let him go, because "everybody knew" he couldn't time trial. Modern communications between teams and their DS make it relatively easy to plan and execute a chase, if the DS want to chase.

Things were different, back in the bad old days, but today, the peloton can catch, or at least limit the GC gain, of nearly any breakaway, IF THEY WANT TO. They don't always want to.

Have you watched the stages? It's not a matter of plain time differences. It's a matter of seeing Contador attack six times in a matter of a minute or two, accelerating like nobody's business. He's not just riding at a faster average speed than everyone else, that's for sure. That doesn't seem normal after the work they've put in for the past 2+ weeks.

And when did the peloton "let him go" (referring to Rasmussen) while he was in yellow? I don't think you've got your facts straight.

He said the stage where Rasmussen got the yellow jersey. Yes they did miscalculate.

Richard

Have you watched the stages? It's not a matter of plain time differences. It's a matter of seeing Contador attack six times in a matter of a minute or two, accelerating like nobody's business. He's not just riding at a faster average speed than everyone else, that's for sure. That doesn't seem normal after the work they've put in for the past 2+ weeks.

And when did the peloton "let him go" (referring to Rasmussen) while he was in yellow? I don't think you've got your facts straight.

You know a ton about racing. One of the very few out here that actually knows what he is talking about (and it's good to see you back)...

But, in 1969 the average speed (35.409kph) was faster than in 1975...

And on the pictured bike, the average speed was 25kph in 1903...horrible frame, one gear, terrible tires. No teams, no team cars, stages hundreds of miles long, all repair work done yourself. No spare bike, no DS yelling in your ear. Every man for himself.

I'll agree that with the help of the medical profession, sports has changed. A lot. But don't dismiss the equipment factor entirely...I chuckle because the frame I rode three years ago is basically obsolete today.So, relatively speaking, in the 32 years from 1975 to 2007, the speed in the TDF has increased by the same amount as it took 72 years for the speed to increase from 1903 to 1975. Hmmm. Roads haven't changed that much in 32 years. Equipment has changed some, but not that much in 32 years. I still see riders out there with box section rims built 3x in many big races and radial spokings were common in '75. Steel and titanium frames are still being used and both were available in '75. I'd say there have been some unprecedented increases in racing speeds in the last few years that cannot be expained away by equipment changes or improvements in training.

By the way, what kind of frame were you riding three years ago that is basically obsolete today?

Oh yeah, the average speed of the winner in 1975 was 34 kmh. In 2005 it was 41.

Couldn't you argue that advances in equipment and technology, training with power; could make up that difference?

Paul made the best point about Rass. No one doubted that he was a great climber, but his much much better than typical time-trial was a bit suspicious.

Same thing with Landis. He follows a truly awful day with one of the great rides of that years tour. In fact he rode much much better than anyone had ever seen him do before. I don't want to make it sound like all riders who put in great performances are doping, but one needs to look at their previous performances when trying to judge whether something illegal is occuring.

Not particularly defending Landis here but Stage 17 was not a parallel to Ras's climbs here. If you remember when Landis went, no one followed, they just let him go until it was too late to catch him. It was a good ride, but not as remarkable as Stage 15 and 16 this year. Same could be said of Pereiro last year, he gained 28 MINUTES on one stage! He must have doped! Well whether he did or did not, the fact is he went and no one chased him down. The Pyrenees this year is much more suspicious to me than Stage 17 last year. Just looking at the rides, LNDD questions aside. When Ras kicked after going under the 1K flag, he just rode away from Contador and Leipheimer like they were backing up.

So, relatively speaking, in the 32 years from 1975 to 2007, the speed in the TDF has increased by the same amount as it took 72 years for the speed to increase from 1903 to 1975. Hmmm. Roads haven't changed that much in 32 years. Equipment has changed some, but not that much in 32 years.

Have you seen the improvements in technology in the past 32 years? Are you living in a hole?

I still see riders out there with box section rims built 3x in many big races and radial spokings were common in '75. Steel and titanium frames are still being used and both were available in '75. I'd say there have been some unprecedented increases in racing speeds in the last few years that cannot be expained away by equipment changes or improvements in training.

Few riders are even riding clinchers. Actually, are any this year? Also, there is no one in this year's peloton riding steel or titanium frames. I think last year was the last attempt at steel, which didn't last.

You'd have to be ignorant to think that an increase of 6-7km/hr (4+mph) over the past 30 years is mostly due to doping.

Given that logic, who's in last place? He obviously suffered a lot more, if only from embarrassment. Give him the yellow.

Let's start convicting riders based on performance. If they're too good, they're disqualified. Sometimes these TV guys really confirm why they're not brain surgeons.


I like that logic...I would kick all your asses in the TDF.

You'd have to be ignorant to think that an increase of 6-7km/hr (4+mph) over the past 30 years is mostly due to doping.

Exactly; it's due to more efficient doping. ;)

Don't remember that but I believe you and your interpretation is a logical conclusion.

Oddly this year, Al - though still hokey and dorky - has been asking alot of good questions to sorta play through different strategies and tactics.

What he said was quote "I look at Alberto Contador like I look at Micheal Rasmussen, I look at a guy who shouldn't be able to do what he has done. I don't think he's worthy of the yellow jersey."

Then the other guys said that they agree. It's essentially a witch hunt.

Have you seen the improvements in technology in the past 32 years? Are you living in a hole?



Few riders are even riding clinchers. Actually, are any this year? Also, there is no one in this year's peloton riding steel or titanium frames. I think last year was the last attempt at steel, which didn't last.

You'd have to be ignorant to think that an increase of 6-7km/hr (4+mph) over the past 30 years is mostly due to doping.
Ok, I'll ignore the name calling. Just look at my sig. :rolleyes:

Let's see if you're capable of reasoning. Are you saying that the changes in technology, which includes roads, equipment, etc.. from 1975 to 2007 have had a greater impact on the speeds of the races than the changes in technology from 1903 to 1975? Simiani made this is a relative comparison by bringing up the 1903 to 1975 era nd comparing that to 1975-2007. For your point to be valid, you would have to believe that the changes from 1975 to 2007 have had a greater impact on the speeds than the changes from 1903 to 1975.

And no, I haven't been living in a hole for the last 32 hyears. I've been working in the bicycle business, racing competitively, and following racing closely.

I like that logic...I would kick all your asses in the TDF.

Nope, you'd take second to me.

I bought my first racing bike in 1975. My most recent racing bike was bought in 2003. The differences are quite notable:

- 7 lbs
- brake lever mounted index shifting
- 150 psi, rarely flat tires
- 10 speed cassette
- clipless pedals
- half the spokes and bladed
- disc rear wheel
- aero bars
- aero helmut
- full spandex
- heart monitor and power meter training
- better understanding of training and nutrition
- faster teammates
- more focused specificity towards races
- real time tactics
- gel bars
- hotter podium babes :D