Road Cycling - am i the only person who can't make campy WORK??

i've been using ultegra STI levers for some time now, and i love them. but before i got my bike, i test rode several campy-equipped bikes with everything from mirage to record and had the same problem with every one: the front derailleur would not shift to the big ring without tons of trouble. as i got used to my shimano STI's, i began to wonder if campy was as tough as i remembered. so i tried a friend's record-equipped bike last night, and i had the same problems again; about two years after i first tried the ergopower levers.

so is there some specific way you have to press the left lever to make it go on the big ring? i mashed it as hard as i could and held it there for at least ten seconds, but the chain just kept scraping the chainring as the derailleur strained to move another millimeter. this last campy bike i rode also had plenty of mileage in it, so it was fully broken in. campy stuff is absolutely gorgeous and i WANT to like it, but i just cant...

so, once again, can someone please tell me how to work this damn thing?

Did you ask your friend about it? How does he do it?

The shifter is set up so that as you progress to smaller cogs in the cassette (towards the right side of the bike) you eventually have to move the front der over a bit to eliminate the dragging caused by the chain angle. The left shifter has several "clicks" so that you can eliminate the front der drag. Then when you are reaching the end of your cassette and you make the move for the big ring it will just pop right up onto it. IF you are needing to shift from the small chainring to the larger one and the front der and shifter are in their leftmost position (least cable tension) then it is usually necessary to move the shifter a couple of clicks over then release the lever and give it a full push for the big chainring. It sounds difficult but it is really quite easy. I can do it under full sprint with no problem. Good luck with your conversion to the brighter side.

-Ryan

thanks. yeah, i did ask how i was supposed to shift it, but it was actually his brother's bike, and he couldn't figure it out, either. and it's weird-- when i was test riding bikes before i got mine, my dad had no problems whatsoever getting any of them to shift, but i could only get it with luck.

does anyone else have any tips, or did ryan pretty much cover it? it does sound kinda complex, but i guess i'd get used to it with practice. but does it only shift well if you're on the smaller cogs of the cassette? i know i'm not supposed to, but i regularly ride the extremes of my drivetrain; big ring, big cog / small ring, small cog. is it virtually impossible to shift from to the big ring while in a big cassette cog?

You're simply not pushing the lever far enough....... I always get the chain on the big ring with just one swing of the lever....

how far do you have to push it? i mashed that sucker until it wouldn't go any further. if it could go any further, i guess my feeble fingers didn't have the strength to get it there :P

i was REALLY pushing that thing... maybe it gets easier to shift the faster you go? i was only spinning around in a small parking lot. with that said, however, i have gotten up to speed before with campy stuff and had the same problem.

Push hard and fast!! :p

I've never had problems.. either you were not pushing it in enough.. or the FD was not setup correctly. Campy allows you to to fine adjustment so you will not get the chain rub if using the extreme on the cassette in the back. I would go test a bike at a LBS with campy that is properly setup and see what you think

Originally posted by djgustashaw
how far do you have to push it? i mashed that sucker until it wouldn't go any further. if it could go any further, i guess my feeble fingers didn't have the strength to get it there :P



You don't have small hands do you? Shimanos are much more user friendly regardless of hand size. (designed by Japanese engineers with small hands) Campy Ergos, on the other hand are definitely not designed for smaller hands. Lots of people with small hands have problems with Ergo levers, especially brake lever reach.

I've heard the exact opposite George.. I have average size hands and have no problems with either setup shimano or Campy.. So can't say by personal experience which works better with smaller hands.

Originally posted by Kev
I've heard the exact opposite George.. I have average size hands and have no problems with either setup shimano or Campy.. So can't say by personal experience which works better with smaller hands.
Being born in Japan, I happen to have small hands (only). Although my bike is Ergo equipped, I find STI equipped bikes much more comfortable for my hands as far as brake reach from the drops and on-the-hoods riding.

I recently rode some Campy stuff not too long ago. I wasn't blown away. I would have liked to have had a positive experience as I really wanted to like the stuff. I just couldn't figure out the shifting either. I guess I just prefer the indexed shifting of Shimano's stuff. Or maybe I'm just stupid. :p :D

This is the exact question I asked yesterday:

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32494

I can't get mine to do it either. I'm new at this, so I assumed it was me. I have a Bianchi Eros with Campy components.

I think what's bothering you is that Campy is not indexed in the front. That means you have a range of intermediate steps from all the way low to all the way high that allow you to trim your derailleur for the chainline. I agree that it is difficult to sweep the shifter from the lowest position to the highest, but you should not be doing that. You should be shifting up in increments, until you need to jump into a bigger gear up front, making the upshift only two clicks.

If, on the other hand, you're shifting from the lowest to the highest position, then you clearly do not know how to shift at all, and I can't help you.

Three things on Campag from my use:
1. Large ring shifting likes higher speeds: you should be shifting up while accelerating anyway
2. Took mine about 100mi to break-in. Gets smoother every ride, even at over 1000mi.
3. Can adjust the shift limiter to 1/2 click over the top to ease shifting. I did this and it's much better. The shifter & FD will then step back to the last click after the shift. There is no chance of throwing the chain, either.

It does take a bit of effort to upshift rings on Campag but you get used to it. When you do, the feeling is very positive and crisp.

thanks everyone. now to answer some of your questions:

no, i don't have small hands. i'm 6'1" and 122lbs (a true mountain goat), and my fingers are long like i am tall.

i'm not sure if this bike was properly set up, but i've had the same prob even with bikes that were. when i was test riding bikes at the lbs, i came in and told em that it wasn't shifting, so they adjusted it a bit and told me it was perfect. i took it back out and it still wouldn't work for me :/

maybe i'm spoiled with indexing, but based on everyone's replies campy seems really particular with how you have to shift it. using STI's, i can shift while going slow, while in any gear ratio, etc. i guess it is one of those things that you get used to, but in any case, STI seems more user friendly.

i still haven't given up on campy yet, however. i want to have a campy equipped bike at one point or another, if only for the lust factor, but i'll give it another try whenever i get a chance.

Campy does tend to need more force than Shimano. In a shop test ride, this makes Shimano feel nicer, but in an adrenaline-filled sprint to the finish line, you lose that fine motor corrdination and gain a lot in strength.
I use Campy on my touring bike for normal riding around, and dont seem to have any problem shifting chainrings. Its only Mirage, and its now 7 years old.

dj,

Having campy is nice but in terms of performance Shimano does not give anything away to Campy. Each has features or areas where they are better. At the end of the day you pays your money and you takes your chances.
Despite Campy having superior Rear mech design, I still find Shimano fastr andmore quiet which has advantages under race condition.
Campy's finish is beautiful but after a season of racing the parts do start to look scuffed and then the pimp value diminishes.
So at the end of the day it's always best to go with what works for you. Shimano may never have the lustful appeal of Campagnolo (pronounced Cham-pa-njolo) but it works just as well.
You like Shimano, it works for you, stick with it.
The guy i bought my record group from used it for all of 100miles before deciding that he did not like it. I got the group at 40% of new price! He's now placed an order for a Lance Armstrong Trek Madone with 2004 Dura Ace. More money than sense I think.
A cear lesson in- 'Stick with what works for you...'

TimB-

true, true. hell, i don't even have any money to get anything at the moment! i do plan on sticking with shimano for the life of my bike, which should hopefully be through the end of college. i'm 17 now, do some racing, lots of club rides, but i have a sinking feeling that i'm not gonna have any time to ride when i get to college and my bike is gonna sit and gather dust. once i'm out of college, on my own, and have a real job (or career...), i'll probably be ready for something new. so i better learn how to use it now! :p but it is fun to play around with other people's bikes since i don't plan on getting myself a new one for some time.

Some things never change. I've been listening to people making excuses for Campagnolo for as long as I've been riding. This is premium priced, high status equipment that lasts very well, if cared for; that's the good news.

It's also a bit temperamental and requires a higher degree of finesse to use- where's the ergonomic advantage in that? Slow changes and limited jumps are the last things you need in a race, despite the condescending remarks of Peloton- and you sometimes need to go from one extreme to the other in a hilly race- immediately! It's not as if we're talking touring triple extremes......

The relative lack of creature comforts on some of these top dollar products is ridiculous and an indictment of not only the lazy design engineers in Italy but the label-sniffing punters, who don't demand better value and practicality for their money.

Originally posted by Flaneur
Slow changes and limited jumps are the last things you need in a race, .....

Actually, Campy allows you to shift over whole range of cogs with a single motion. With Shimano you need a discrete shift for each cog.

I don't find Campy particularly finicky. I've had my latest bike for over a year now and have had to make some minor adjustments to the rear mech. only once. That's probably 3-4K miles.

No excuses. Works great!

Just my $0.02.

SteveE

Flaneur, I'm really not quite sure what planet you're on... but...

Comparable Campy and Shimano groups are comparably priced. We sell a complete Chorus group for $950, and the comparable Shimano group for (wait for it!) $1,000. We sell Centaur for about $675 and Ultegra for $650. Campy is no more "premium priced" than Shimano. (You really should try to be a. least partly informed before you start slinging BS.)

I personally find the Campy shifting much more accurate than Shimano. I had Ultegra on one of my bikes for a couple of years and had one hell of a time overshifting on the downshif sweep. I was also really annoyed in sprints that I couldn't sweep from, say my 17 cog to 13 in one click. If you have experienced slow changes with Campy components, they probably weren't set up properly, and you might want to learn how to tune your derailleurs.

I find the shape of Shimano's hoods to be very uncomfortable, and the Campy blade and thumbshifter combination to be more intuitive and safer than Shimano's brake-while-you-shift system.

I prefer working with Campy in the shop. The tolerances are much higher and everything fits together very well. I've had enough problems with Shimano freewheel pawls and failed DA BBs to last a lifetime. I see ten Dura Ace shifters returned for warranty every year for every Chorus shifter returned for repair (we sell DA to chorus at about 2 to 1).

But, hell, some people like Shimano. I think Shimano has the edge on availability (the Campy distribution in the US leaves a lot to be desired) and I think the splined BB/crankset (The Ultegra BB, anyway) beats Campy's square taper hands down. (I understand that Campagnolo has licensed the ISIS spline for 2005, however.)

I would recommend that you try things like bicycle components before you pontificate on them.

just wanted to let everyone know that when i started this thread, i had no intentions of putting down campy. i was just wondering if there were any tricks to getting that front derailleur to do my bidding.

LOL -- me too. :) I haven't had a bike long enough to make judgments about it's components being good or not. I'm sure that so far it is user error.

Originally posted by peloton
Flaneur, I'm really not quite sure what planet you're on... but...

Comparable Campy and Shimano groups are comparably priced. We sell a complete Chorus group for $950, and the comparable Shimano group for (wait for it!) $1,000. We sell Centaur for about $675 and Ultegra for $650. Campy is no more "premium priced" than Shimano. (You really should try to be a. least partly informed before you start slinging BS.)

I personally find the Campy shifting much more accurate than Shimano. I had Ultegra on one of my bikes for a couple of years and had one hell of a time overshifting on the downshif sweep. I was also really annoyed in sprints that I couldn't sweep from, say my 17 cog to 13 in one click. If you have experienced slow changes with Campy components, they probably weren't set up properly, and you might want to learn how to tune your derailleurs.

I find the shape of Shimano's hoods to be very uncomfortable, and the Campy blade and thumbshifter combination to be more intuitive and safer than Shimano's brake-while-you-shift system.

I prefer working with Campy in the shop. The tolerances are much higher and everything fits together very well. I've had enough problems with Shimano freewheel pawls and failed DA BBs to last a lifetime. I see ten Dura Ace shifters returned for warranty every year for every Chorus shifter returned for repair (we sell DA to chorus at about 2 to 1).

But, hell, some people like Shimano. I think Shimano has the edge on availability (the Campy distribution in the US leaves a lot to be desired) and I think the splined BB/crankset (The Ultegra BB, anyway) beats Campy's square taper hands down. (I understand that Campagnolo has licensed the ISIS spline for 2005, however.)

I would recommend that you try things like bicycle components before you pontificate on them.

LOL!! where were you like, two weeks ago when i was arguing these exact same points about shimano v. campy? i have 105, and my only problems are the shifters shifting one cog at a time, the swinging brake-arm thing, and something else...my left crankarm will not stay tight on the spindle no matter what. also, last time i went out on the bike the FD overshifted and i threw the chain while shifting to the "big" ring, which sucked. a lot. i'm using FSA gossamer cross cranks (which are octalink compatible) with the octalink bb. i realise now that i should've gone with ISIS for all that stuff, but it's a tad too late. oh well. live and learn...then buy different parts. i don't ride my road bike enough that getting new parts is really cost-effective at this point. i prefer fixies...less parts to meddle with.

Originally posted by OneTinSloth
LOL!! where were you like, two weeks ago when i was arguing these exact same points about shimano v. campy
I hadn't yet found this forum. I would have been on posting on radbikereview.com.

If you threw your chain when shifting into the big ring, then your FD is improperly adjusted. Tighten the high limiter screw about half a turn. If you get chain rub in your highest gear combination (53x12, for example) loosen the screw 1/4 turn.

As for the loose crank, have your LBS look at the spline socket on the crank. The 105 cranks are a bit soft, and some of them, we have found at the shop, have slight imperfections. That may be a warranty replacement.

i don't get chain rub in my highest gear combo (48/13), and the chain only fell off that one time (which happened to be the first time in the ride). i have no idea why it happened at all. i actually TRIED to get it to happen again with no results.

i'm using the new FSA cyclocross cranks instead of the 105s, which use 48/38 rings. i decided on smaller rings because i mostly ride in the city, and i try to watch my speed in traffic, as boston drivers can be a bit erratic. i almost want to switch up to a 53, but it's mostly because i don't want to look like a weeny, and when i think about that, i decide to keep the 48, as i rarely even shift out of the 38.

i think the biggest reason why i went with shimano over campy was that i run bullhorns on my road bikes because i prefer that hand position, and the ergo shifters just wouldn't work right in that situation. also i decided a while ago that if im' ever going to have campy parts it's going to be record or nothing.

Well, on my Campy Mirage equipped bike I have taken to using 2 short moves rather than one one big one for going to the big ring. Granted I'm due for a tune up and maybe even some new cables. I find the "trim" ti be reasonableand not over complicated. Of course I cane right off Friction downtube shifters.

Peloton...

you are an heroically intemperate person and I am honoured to have joined the ranks of those insulted by you:)

-bet whoever owns your shop doesn't let you near the paying customers, mind......:)

Let me summarise your view. Any problems with Campagnolo stuff are down to operator/set-up error. Shimano stuff is of inferior quality and harder to work on.

....and you work in a shop which sells the stuff? At similar prices?

Unlike you, I live in a country where Campagnolo is still a premium priced product. Are you suggesting that Shimano is the over-priced competitor in your market? If so, how do you sell any Shimano at that price, relative to the competition?

I was commenting on the reluctance of cyclists to challenge the myth that is Campagnolo. I didn't comment on Shimano stuff at all but some of the mythology surrounds that company also. It's a duopoly and if what they're selling isn't appropriate for your needs, then it's your fault, your problem. I think the apologetic tone of some of my fellow contributors and your contrastingly- and characteristically- scathing remarks, make my point admirably.

Further down the ranges is where better value for money is available, I believe. Some of the highest priced bikes I see will be hanging in some garage long before the components wear out, as the whole bike is superceded by the 'next great advance'. At the most expensive level, we are seeing fetish purchasing, status symbolism with little or no practical advantages for the user. I would be throwing money away, for example, using $1000 groups of components locally between October and April- the salt and mud would ruin most stuff in a single winter (and does). So I do the traditional thing and ride my fixed wheel beater or 'vintage' mountain bike while the Team Replica dream bikes (and some of their owners) are having a very long break from the practicalities of winter riding.

My fixie has a 30 year-old Campy chainset and hubs that have done around 70000 miles, ridden and maintained by me. I have no hesitation in proclaiming these parts value for money LOL! Does that or any other longevity story prove the argument that Campy is best? Of course not- the variables are endless. Out here in the real world, not on Planet Bike Shop (where components are free), the manufacturers sell us stuff we don't need (20 gears and none of them low enough) at prices they fix (ever buy brake blocks in Britain?)and all styled for the pretend racer to fuel his fantasies.

What is your role in this equation? To slap down the inexperienced, ridicule the dissenter and reify the latest marketing tweak?

I no longer ride criteriums. I could care less about shifting accuracy 500k's into a big randonnee, or 20 hours into a time trial. At that point, Campy hoods and Shimano hoods are just places where your hands rest on the bars........My argument is that for $950 this stuff should be fool- proof, not open to your learned pronouncements. Modern gearing is OK but it ain't no paradigm shift, except in marketing terms. It wears out, goes out of sync, chains get dropped (in Tour Prologues). Plus ca change. Pity is, when people buy the wrong stuff for their needs, or the stuff doesn't perform as advertised, they beat themselves up- and guys like you help 'em out.

Uhm, I think you might need to refill the prozac prescription. I believe you were the first to use words like 'ridiculous' and 'label-sniffing punters'. Just a thought.

Multi,

Peloton has opinions and I respect that. I have some as well, as you noticed.

Would you care to share yours with us more fully? :)

Not sure if my front derailleur needs adjustment or not, but when I shift to the big ring with Shimano Ultegra, I move the lever over once, then have to release and hold it over. It's still a quick shift, but it won't go if I just sweep the lever all the way over. Once I release and sweep the second time, it jumps right up. I had a noise when I bought the bike, and the LBS had two different mechanics pour over it, not finding a thing. The adjustments were done twice. Noise turned out to be not halfclicking the front derailleur over while on the bigger back gears, and the frame flexing while going up hills.

yeah, it sounds like something isn't right with your drivetrain. the ultegra on my bike is extremely smooth, and everything works with a single swing of the shifters if it's adjusted correctly.

Sure I'll share, but I'm going to keep the name-calling to a minimum. I'm in a good mood today.

Shimano outsells Campy because distribution in the States for Campy is pretty low. 3/4 of bikes in the bike shops are outfitted with Shimano from the manufacturer. Campy is slightly higher in price for pretty simple economic reasons, but it is not insanely more expensive. Shimano can sell their product a little cheaper here because of the volume they push out as OEM on the majority of bikes sitting on show room floors. I have no idea what the prices are like in Europe, but I would guess that the difference is probably smaller. Also, I'm sure it isn't hurting Shimano that Lance uses their stuff, just like it isn't hurting Trek either.

So most of the people I know use Shimano, not because they specifically chose the group but because they found the bike they wanted and it had Shimano on it. However, most roadies I know who work in bike shops run Campy. Now I'm no technical expert, but when I see that most of the bike mechanics around here run Campy - many going out of their way to do so - instead of the slightly cheaper and much more available Shimano, that sends me a message. I have also listened to mechanics rattle off lots of reasons they like Campy better (ie, easier to work on, more reliable, better thought out design, etc.).

Yes Record is very expensive, but Record is in a class of its own. DA and Chorus are comparable in almost all respects and Record is just a "no holds barred" version of Chorus.

Personally, I think for most users either brand will be fine and personal comfort is more important than CF der cages. I run Campy on my bike because I like it better, not because it costs more. The thumb shifting is much more intuitive to me...when you push it downward the chain goes in the down direction. I don't like the thought of pushing on brake levers to switch gears and I like that I can jump from 23 to 13 with one motion if I want to. I like the hoods better and I like not having cables sticking up between my handlebars. I have never had any problems with my group at all in the 3 years I've been using it.

In short, I'm in the Campy camp, both for personal comfort reasons as well as because I've never heard a local bike mechanic tell me Shimano was better. I've heard Campy is more reliable and that the two are basically equal, but never that Shimano was a better product than Campy. For those reasons I feel comfortable and confident in my group. My wife runs Ultegra though and I don't think she is crazy for doing so nor do I take jabs at her about it. Maybe she likes it better, but odds are she just liked the color of the bike it came on. ;)

I find Bike Mechanics to be a very traditional bunch. They like the old way of doing things nd for them Shimano is just too progressive. STi's, Splined BB, Now integrated cranks while campagnolo is slower to change. There's less threat to them with campagnolo.

Also in the states with campagnolo having a more elite status due to lower availabilty and higher pricing (sort of Mercede Benz vs Lexus), in terms of functionality there very little to separate each group.

Her ein Europe Campagnolo is cheaper than Shimano by about 2%. Campy is made in Italy, amember of the european union so import tariffs are lower and the can better align their markting and sales strategy against shimano.

Also the Campy works better myth is really a joke. It does'nt! It depends on your personal preference. Most mechanics over here will tell that the parts they have in stock are the best.
most people choose Campagnolo because it like gaining memebership to an exclusive club. Thats european thinking, where class structure in society is still prevalent. and also In america is assume.
In the far eat, where Shimano comes from class structure is almost non existant. Ther emanagement and the workers each has a role and each accepts it with pride. Non of this upity sh*t like we have over here. And it reflects in their products. Shimano is no fuss, no nonsense, sensible components. They function, don't look particularly interesting but they work and they work well.
Campagnolo is very italian. Excellent engineering, abit recalcitrant in nature but very good looking, (just like their women - mamamia!!!).
Because of the attention to detail, the craftsmanship they work well.

Different approaches to solve the same problem. The end result is as different are they are similar.
Both brilliant, hence the reason nobody else could compete in the same market and hence the reason they're the biggest bike part manufacturing in the world today.
Quality - both have it in abundance.
performance - ditto

each appeals to people with different values though.

Some of the reason the LBS dudes use Campy is because it is kind of cool and hip to be different than the pack, regardless of whether the pack is good or not good, and because they get it cheaper than the consumer, and because it's different than the stuff they have to work on all day long typically. They are bored and want something different. They also tend to be a bit more traditional(this has worked for years, why change - type of thinking).

Those are the reasons that I am given when relating to the LBS guys around here. In some cases, some don't even like Campy and prefer Shimano, and they all, almost, pull you to the side and tell you that Shimano is just as good and cheaper and to go with that. Availability is better with Shimano, and they will typically have what you need on hand.

TimB stated it well. It's kind of like a Lexus vs a Mercedes. They both work great, they both are real nice, but the Mercedes carries the posh factor a little more, but at a little premium. The Lexus is quiet and goes about it's duty without a lot of flash and fanfare.

Hehe, well it is kinda like a Lexus and MB. MB has the posh but not the reliability. That's another story though. I'm not really arguing with you guys, like I said I think both products are pretty equal in most respects and the biggest factor to consider is which you like more with respect to comfort.

ms4life- I agree. Lexus reliability is extremely hard to beat, for anyone :)

I prefer an Infiniti -- the FX45 drives like a dream. :)

Originally posted by TimB

In the far eat, where Shimano comes from class structure is almost non existant. Ther emanagement and the workers each has a role and each accepts it with pride. Non of this upity sh*t like we have over here. And it reflects in their products. Shimano is no fuss, no nonsense, sensible components. They function, don't look particularly interesting but they work and they work well.


wtf, the Japanese have one of the strongest class structures in the frickin world! They're huge snobs and the best to them ARE Mercedes, BMW and Campagnolo. They love euro and american stuff and are very elitist about their toys.

I'm not going into Campy vs. Shimano AGAIN. Someone posted a link to a great comparison article-maybe on this thread. Read it, test both and see what you think.

Campy is NOT more expensive than Shimano. They are within dollars of each other- every group down the line.

Originally posted by Flaneur
You are an heroically intemperate person and I am honoured to have joined the ranks of those insulted by you:)
I don't recall insulting you, actually. I'm sorry if you felt insulted. Are you, by the way, a reader of Walter Benjamin?


-bet whoever owns your shop doesn't let you near the paying customers, mind......:)
I deal mostly with our teams and higher-end customers, when I deal with customers. I work in the pit and I do most of the ordering and employee management.


Let me summarise your view. Any problems with Campagnolo stuff are down to operator/set-up error. Shimano stuff is of inferior quality and harder to work on.
Not at all. Shimano components have some design flaws right across the line that make them harder to work on, and they are designed to not be serviceable. When you pooch an Ultegra shifter, you replace it, you don't fix it. You can't even get spare parts for repair.

On the other hand, Shimano components work rather well, if it's what you're used to, and they have a couple of advantages over Campagnolo that, for some people, outweighs the disadvantages. Dura Ace, Ultegra and 105 are good groups. They are not better than the comparable Campagnolo groups, and they're not a hell of a lot worse.

Around here, though, price is not an advantage, so you have to chose between Campy's more positive shifting, square taper BB, serviceability and longevity, and Shimano's product availability and octalink BB spline.


Unlike you, I live in a country where Campagnolo is still a premium priced product. Are you suggesting that Shimano is the over-priced competitor in your market? If so, how do you sell any Shimano at that price, relative to the competition?
I'm not suggesting anything of the kind. In fact, I see Shimano as more of a Microsoft-type company. It has the leverage to hang its components on more bikes as OEM, and it produces in much higher volumes than Campagnolo. It makes good, workable stuff that does pretty much what advertised, even if it sometimes achieves it though a technological kludge.

OEM Shimano is sold at a much lower margin and cost than OEM Campagnolo in Asia. Since most bikes are made in Asia, it is cheaper for a Specialized or a Giant to equip a Shimano bike than a Campagnolo bike. Sold as cpomplete groups in the US, though, the prices are pretty much the same.

I was commenting on the reluctance of cyclists to challenge the myth that is Campagnolo. I didn't comment on Shimano stuff at all but some of the mythology surrounds that company also. It's a duopoly and if what they're selling isn't appropriate for your needs, then it's your fault, your problem. I think the apologetic tone of some of my fellow contributors and your contrastingly- and characteristically- scathing remarks, make my point admirably.
What myth? They are two companies that make similar products that function differently. I personally prefer Campagnolo. I've actually had experience with both lines since the mid-80s.

I just read back to see if I made any "characteristically" scathing remarks about Shimano and, in fact, I did not. You have a fine imagination. What I said was that your contention that Campagnolo products cost more than Shimano components was false, and that, in some areas, Campagnolo components are better than Shimano components at the equivalent level. Hardly scathing. I find it hard to believe that you are such a loyalist of SHimano that you would take considered criticism (mild criticism at that!) as a scathing attack!


Further down the ranges is where better value for money is available, I believe.
That is true of both companies. There is very little functionality in Dura Ace or Chorus that you can't get in Ultegra or Centaur.


What is your role in this equation? To slap down the inexperienced, ridicule the dissenter and reify the latest marketing tweak?
To be honest, not. I don't like selling CF handlebars and cranks, even to our sponsored racers. We did not order any Sora-equipped bikes this year because the quality is complete garbage, but we do sell a fair volume of Tiagra and 105 bikes. If someone comes in and wants to buy a good bike, I'll show him what we have. If he names a Dura Ace/Chorus price range, I'll show him what we have. In fact, our sales staff is not on commission for the express reason that we don't want them to oversell our customers. I don't sell by group, but by need and price point.

And, in case you're wondering, I'm actually quite suspicious of the latest marketing "tweak."

My role is to sell quality bikes to out clientele.


At that point, Campy hoods and Shimano hoods are just places where your hands rest on the bars........My argument is that for $950 this stuff should be fool- proof, not open to your learned pronouncements. Modern gearing is OK but it ain't no paradigm shift, except in marketing terms. It wears out, goes out of sync, chains get dropped (in Tour Prologues). Plus ca change. Pity is, when people buy the wrong stuff for their needs, or the stuff doesn't perform as advertised, they beat themselves up- and guys like you help 'em out.
The point, my dear flaneur, is that neither Campy nor Shimano components are foolproof at any price point. Moreover, my "learned pronouncements" boil down to "I prefer using and servicing Campy stuff, but both lines have advantages and disadvantages," despite whatever efforts you make to put words in my mouth.

What I was responding to was your baldfaced lie that the value of Campagnolo was only in its prestige value and that it is a "bit temperamental and requires a higher degree of finesse to use." The point that I made, despite your efforts to twist my comments, was that, they work about the same, and that Shimano does not have a value advantage over Campagnolo.

I responded because I have had experience using and servicing both for about two decades, and I believe that some readers here could benefit from that experience, as opposed to your unfounded surmises.

Geez racerx, I guess it's a good thing there aren't any Japanese members of this forum. They might have taken some offense to that. Now where is that little smiley face that gives people the bird?

There ARE japanese members on this forum. And calling it like it is- saying the Japanese are just like everyone else and also accurately portraying their society (class structured) isn't offensive.
What is offensive is perpetuating stereotypes and "myths" about people- whether you think they are good or not, doesn't make them less offensive.

Originally posted by RacerX
There ARE japanese members on this forum. And calling it like it is- saying the Japanese are just like everyone else and also accurately portraying their society (class structured) isn't offensive.

Yeah, that was sarcasm racerx. I would assume there probably are Japanese folks on this forum. I have Japanese people in my family, which was part of why I personally found your comments offensive, and I don't think the term "they are huge snobs" is something that most Japanese will agree is a fair assessment of their culture. That is roughly the equivalent of saying...well, you can figure it out.


What is offensive is perpetuating stereotypes and "myths" about people- whether you think they are good or not, doesn't make them less offensive.

You just perpetuated a stereotype, claimed it wasn't offensive, and then said perpetuating stereotypes is offensive. Which one is it? I'm not losing sleep over your comments or anything, I'm just calling you on a poor choice of words. If you can't see that it was inappropriate, that isn't my problem.

Just curious, but why do you "want" to like Campy? You like what works for you and that is OK. By the way I use Campy and do not have a problem w/ it, but Shimano does seem to be more "userfriendly".

Hi Folks,

I have to agree that Campy is somewhat finicky. I run Chorus on my bike and have also experienced trouble getting into the big ring. I made some adjustments and now I get into the big ring no problem, but when I try to go back down to the small ring, the FD spits it right off on the inside and I have to stop and reload the chain. I know it's just a matter of fine tuning, so I'm not too concerned. Overall, shifting Campy does require coordination. I have STI Shimano shifting on my MTB, which any moron could shift with ease. I'd compare the two set-ups as one would compare an automatic car transmission vs. a manual one. It takes skill to use the manual, but it's a lot more fun IMHO. :)

Steve