Does John Forester still ride a bike?

LCI_Brian

Fair enough. But then that brings us to the question of who's convenience is more important: yours, as the individual cyclist, or theirs, as the hundreds of motorists you are impeding. Is the extra ten minutes of commute worth all of the ill will that "taking the lane" on a busy arterial likely causes?
On a multilane road, the delay is temporary, they make up the time after passing and then get stuck at the next light anyway.

I really haven't had much ill will when using the full lane when it's obvious to drivers it's too narrow to share. I've seen more ill will when there is room for a cyclist to safely share and he doesn't.

FWIW, I've ridden that section on numerous occasions and have never felt any need to take the lane. There is adequate room on the shoulder there, and I have never experienced a close pass. The next time I ride it I will imagine myself "taking the lane" and report back.
See the photos attached. The only way to share the lane is to ride the gutter and I have been passed too closely doing so.

Being as you are local, I will also tell you that I have imagined myself "taking the lane" on a road that is part of my daily commute: Northbound El Toro between Rockfield and Trabuco. I would not willingly ride this route as there is precious little shoulder, and traffic is fast/dense enough that "taking the lane" would be incredibly offensive to the average road user. And most importantly, there are alternates that are only a bit longer, but much safer and do not require that I interfere with other road users.
Let me know what time of day is best for me to consider riding it with my helmetcam, with the sound turned on so we can hear any horn honks or anything like that.

Six jours

Let me know what time of day is best for me to consider riding it with my helmetcam, with the sound turned on so we can hear any horn honks or anything like that.

Five pm on a weekday would be ideal. Don't forget to provide some footage of what is going on behind you. Oh, and if you get run over, don't forget to tell your attorney that this was your idea. :p

The Human Car

and his rememberances from bicycling in the 1970's as a basis for advocacy today?
Oh man you just blew me out of the water... but luckily I still ride a little bit. http://www.bikely.com/maps/bike-path/Balto-Frederick-DC-Loop

Bekologist

Hey, I was bicycling in the 70's. did my first half century in 1974 or 75.

I DON'T erronously base my knowledge of contemporary riding conditions or bike infrastructure on those days, however.

Helmet Head

Hey Serge, you're confusing "inability" with an unwillingness to spend the time educating you.

I'm sure that this post will cause you to experience even more consternation but hey, that's your lot in life.
Dream on about me having any consternation about this.

And trying to pass off your blatant inability as a mere unwillingness to spend the time is pathetic. For someone who knew what he was talking about it would take very little time to recognize and point out any errors I may have made in terms of interpreting the relevant laws.

But if you want to go on living in a delusion about there being some kind of significant difference in the user rights based upon what you are riding in or on, go ahead. My concern is that you don't mislead anyone else.

sbhikes

http://paradigmhosting.net/images/sleigh.jpg

You know, he could get back into cycling with the right recumbent.

Lots of guys like him get along very will with all kinds of infirmities, overweight and old age. I know, because I'm friends with a lot of recumbent guys. They have a great time, are able to get back in shape without pain and agony and ride the long distances of their more youthful days.

I forget where John lives, but I can recommend Bent Up Cycles in Van Nuys as a great place to do a little shopping. Good luck John! You'll be back out testing your theories with the best and worst of us again in no time! Don't give up!

The Human Car

You know, he could get back into cycling with the right recumbent.

Lots of guys like him get along very will with all kinds of infirmities, overweight and old age. I know, because I'm friends with a lot of recumbent guys.
+1 I have a friend of similar age and shape as John with a recumbent and what he calls a tummy shield (windshield) and he'll give me a good run for the money on that thing.

genec

The key difference here is that the instances you cite are unavoidable, and as I have repeatedly mentioned, when interfering with traffic by the cyclist is also unavoidable, then motorists just have to deal with it. The key difference between me and the VCers, however, seems to be in the definition of "unavoidable". I have managed to get away with rarely impeding motorists during my 25 years of cycling. Many of the VCers seem to believe that they need to impede motorists on a more-or-less ongoing basis. This is an obvious source of disagreement.

I think the issue is what is considered "unavoidable." Obviously if there is no room, then as you mentioned, motorists just have to deal with it. But the other issue, that you are attributing to VCers... is what exactly is considered "unavoidable." Frankly there are times when I chose to ride more centerish in an outside lane to make myself more visible in fast traffic, or where there are quite a few lanes and I could be easily overlooked. Since motorists can easily change lanes, I don't feel that I am impeding the flow of traffic at all... I am simply part of it.

I often do this on the 35MPH arterial that serves my neighborhood... it is two lanes either way and they are lined with parked cars that can and do have doors flung open at any time. I take the right lane and ride that way for the couple of miles it takes for me to get to my neighborhood. Motorists often take offense at that... even when the left lane is fully empty. This is an older area, so there are no WOLs or BL that serve the area... and it is a mixed residential-small business neighborhood with lots of finger canyons that preclude alternate thru routes. (actually these make for nice backyards in the area, which is what attracted me to the area in the first place... I have a great garden back yard of about 1/3 acre)

Also making left turns on fast 50MPH mulitlaned arterials puts me in front of faster traveling motorists... but I signal, I look for gaps and I move with enough room for drivers to account for my actions... however, some motorists may feel I simply do not belong and therefore whine that I am "impeding." The other issue is that motorists often close gaps by speeding, thus themselves are negatively effecting the flow of traffic. Smooth flow of traffic with safe following gaps benefits all traffic... jackrabbit traveling from stop light to stoplight wastes gas, and presents conflicts to any and all traffic attempting to change lanes for any reason. (nothing worse than JAM motorists that have to zip between cars... )

However any time that a motorist spends that they feel they are "delayed" in such a situation, is well less than the time they will spend at the next stoplight. We are talking seconds of delay behind me, when the next light is a minute or two.

BTW on the 35MPH arterial serving my neighborhood, I find that often I stay right with the traffic that moves at an average of about 20MPH anyway... with the stops at lights. When the occasional "overheated" motorist moves past me (expressing their incomprehensible opinions) I find I am usually right behind the JAM at the next several stoplights... it is not like they have gained anything by getting in front of me... Other than to massage their weak egos.

Six jours

I think the issue is what is considered "unavoidable."

I think you are exactly right. And you clearly illustrate our differences in the rest of your post: you take the lane at times when most folks would not, and you deal with the resulting frustrated motorists. Now, the only real problem I have with that is that you may well be creating bike-haters. That's not a huge issue with me, as I give the average motorist enough credit to know the difference between "a cyclist" and "all cyclists".

Which leaves us only with the issue of whether your behavior is safer, more approriate, more acceptable, or whatever, than the behavior of the typical cyclist. IMO it is not -- is in fact less so -- and therefore will neither do it myself nor recommend that other cyclists should.

Bekologist

why is john representing bicyclists in this century? dude certainly doesn't look like much of a bicyclist anymore. i'd rather have people that still bicycle advocating for bicycling, thank you. I can see why the LAB sent john packing.

he is clearly a has-been, now sucking up to cagers and encouraging sprawl with the american dream coalition, romantically remembering bicycling in 'the good old days' and working against effective bicycling advocacy efforts in this country.

joejack951

sggoodri

why is john representing bicyclists in this century? dude certainly doesn't look like much of a bicyclist anymore.

Don't you think that's an unfairly narrow stereotype of what "much of a bicyclist" ought to look like?

I actually know a substantial number of local cyclists who look like him. Some are club cyclists who ride drop-bar road bikes (and some are also avid randonneurs). Others have graduated to 'bents. I find it challenging to keep up with most of them.

Bekologist

no, his picture says a thousand words. I see a few bicyclists his size at the shop, but not many.

most are in to dress up their wall bikes and brag about a new wheelset, despite not riding much, and how much they spent to lighten up their colnago or seven.

call it a stereotype? perhaps. unfair? i don't think so.

john readily admits he doesn't ride much any more, (his picture seems to explain some of that!!!) doesn't do shopping on his bike, and never was a dedicated transportational bicyclist.

I think him getting ousted from the LAB and being in allegiance with the promoters of urban sprawl says a lot more about john.

sggoodri

I think that setting aside sections of pavement wide enough that they could be used as an additional travel lane for motorists just so that cyclists have their own lane is unnecessarily impeding motorists. It's the equivalent of a cyclist taking the lane on a multilane road.

Actually, it can be much worse than that. A cyclist taking the lane on a 4-lane road doesn't delay motorists much, and doesn't reduce the capacity of the roadway, since maximum traffic throughput at intersections occurs at slower speeds anyway, closer to what cyclists travel than to the posted speed limit in many cases. The 2000 Highway Capacity Manual defines the traffic capacity impact of a bicycle in a narrow lane as being equal to 1.0 passenger cars, as being 0.2 passenger car equivalents if the lane is 14' wide, and as being zero if the lane is wider than 15 feet.

Removing a through lane to create a bike lane can result in reduced capacity and slow all traffic, not just the drivers immediately behind a cyclist for a short time. This capacity reduction and increased trip time would occur in places where the through lane traffic at juctions is near capacity before the lane removal. Removing a through lane at the intersection would reduce capacity almost in half.

However, if there is a lot of turning traffic, elimination of a through lane in each direction can actually increase road capacity and reduce average trip times if it makes room for left turn lanes. This exists in some older areas that were striped as four narrow lanes without any turn lanes; these roads are good candidates for so-called "road diets". Most roads are not built this way anymore.

genec

I think you are exactly right. And you clearly illustrate our differences in the rest of your post: you take the lane at times when most folks would not, and you deal with the resulting frustrated motorists. Now, the only real problem I have with that is that you may well be creating bike-haters. That's not a huge issue with me, as I give the average motorist enough credit to know the difference between "a cyclist" and "all cyclists".

Which leaves us only with the issue of whether your behavior is safer, more approriate, more acceptable, or whatever, than the behavior of the typical cyclist. IMO it is not -- is in fact less so -- and therefore will neither do it myself nor recommend that other cyclists should.

So what exactly would you do... cower along beside the parked cars? Doors can and do open at any time... this street is lined with apartment dwellers that come and go. Ride on the sidewalk? Those are the only other choices. Which would you chose?

The issue I see is that the average motorist may not know the difference.

I have had motorists come up behind me on very quiet Sunday mornings, (great time to do a quick 12 mile sprint up and back on the arterial) when there was no other traffic visible as far as the eye could see (perhaps a 1/2 mile or further), while I was riding centerish in the right lane (to avoid glass actually and parked cars in less than half a block...) while there were two empty lanes to my left, and honk and yell at me... "move to the right!"

In retrospect I should just move to the left to show how empty the other lanes are. (and will do this next time... and there will be a next time, no doubt) But I just continued on. In one case, I asked the older driver what his problem was... "you weren't close enough to the curb" was the reply. I guess he needed 2 and a half lanes to feel comfortable. :rolleyes:

Really, there was no call for his foolish move... no traffic around at all... I could have danced in the street except for this one vehicle... and yet they felt it was their duty (so much for the "average motorist") to "correct" my lane position.

Quiet Sunday morning, no other traffic. I am using one lane out of 3 (it narrows to two, closer to my neighborhood)... I mean com'on... :(

Now how do you reconcile that type of motorist behaviour?

Six jours

Now how do you reconcile that type of motorist behaviour?

Some people are A-holes. Becoming one yourself doesn't help. (Not, BTW, that I am implying you have.)

Helmet Head

:(

So what exactly would you do... cower along beside the parked cars? Doors can and do open at any time... this street is lined with apartment dwellers that come and go. Ride on the sidewalk? Those are the only other choices. Which would you chose?

The issue I see is that the average motorist may not know the difference.

I have had motorists come up behind me on very quiet Sunday mornings, (great time to do a quick 12 mile sprint up and back on the arterial) when there was no other traffic visible as far as the eye could see (perhaps a 1/2 mile or further), while I was riding centerish in the right lane (to avoid glass actually and parked cars in less than half a block...) while there were two empty lanes to my left, and honk and yell at me... "move to the right!"

In retrospect I should just move to the left to show how empty the other lanes are. (and will do this next time... and there will be a next time, no doubt) But I just continued on. In one case, I asked the older driver what his problem was... "you weren't close enough to the curb" was the reply. I guess he needed 2 and a half lanes to feel comfortable. :rolleyes:

Really, there was no call for his foolish move... no traffic around at all... I could have danced in the street except for this one vehicle... and yet they felt it was their duty (so much for the "average motorist") to "correct" my lane position.

Quiet Sunday morning, no other traffic. I am using one lane out of 3 (it narrows to two, closer to my neighborhood)... I mean com'on...

Now how do you reconcile that type of motorist behaviour?

What's the problem? These guys think bicyclists belong "close to the edge, period", and that they should be there for their own safety, and that they are being a Good Samaritan for trying to convey this to the rare idiot bicyclist who somehow missed that "lesson". Why not let them be? Why worry about it? What's the problem? I mean, if you find yourself with the opportunity and time to try to set them straight, great. But if you can't, so what? Why all the consternation and hand-wringing? That's what I don't get about you. You seem to think that something must be done about these guys. Why? What's the problem?

If not one motorist ever changed his attitude or behavior from what it is today it would make no difference to me. Certainly doesn't effect how, when or where I ride. I just don't get why driver attitude/behavior matters so much to you.

sbhikes

no, his picture says a thousand words. I see a few bicyclists his size at the shop, but not many.
You're not hanging around in the right shop. Come on over the dark side and see how many recumbent (not all but many) riders have an aerobelly like John's. He has no excuse not to ride.

genec

What's the problem? These guys think bicyclists belong "close to the edge, period", and that they should be there for their own safety, and that they are being a Good Samaritan for trying to convey this to the rare idiot bicyclist who somehow missed that "lesson". Why not let them be? Why worry about it? What's the problem? I mean, if you find yourself with the opportunity and time to try to set them straight, great. But if you can't, so what? Why all the consternation and hand-wringing? That's what I don't get about you. You seem to think that something must be done about these guys. Why? What's the problem?

If not one motorist ever changed his attitude or behavior from what it is today it would make no difference to me. Certainly doesn't effect how, when or where I ride. I just don't get why driver attitude/behavior matters so much to you.

Whoa... slow down there big guy.

Let me give you some local specifics. I ride up and down Clairemont Mesa Blvd on a fairly regular basis... I live right off that road, so it is my home turf. When I take the lane to avoid the door zone, (and there are a ton of parked cars there and some not so bright people that really do just fling the doors open... or stand there with the door open... :rolleyes:) I often get honked at. So that is the background. Happens maybe about once a month. I ride the road almost daily.

I tell Six Jours I am perfectly justified in taking the right lane, primarily for the reason of avoiding the often opening doors... etc. He seems to feel that maybe (or maybe not) I am being an ahole for doing this, as I am "frustrating drivers" by "impeding traffic needlessly." He has offered no other solution... the alternatives are to ride in the very active door zone, or ride on the sidewalk, or take the lane. I take the lane. Very safe at the 35MPH of this area.

Now normally under such circumstances you might readily agree with me.

Six Jours went on to mention that motorists can tell "the difference between "a cyclist" and "all cyclists"." Whatever that means.

I go on to illustrate that no, even when all the other lanes are clear, some motorists are just off their rocker about cyclists... honking at me even when there is NO OTHER TRAFFIC, and I am using just one of the three lanes very empty lanes available. Yeah, I generally ignore them... but the fact that even when I am the only other traffic on the road, and there is plenty of room... some drivers still apparently cannot "handle" it.

Yeah I have confronted a driver or two in these circumstances... (in about a 7 year period) I mean com'on, the situation is so freakin' foolish, jeeze WTF.

But no matter... I see no problem taking the lane under those circumstances: when cycling beside parked cars in that multilaned situation, and especially when traffic is ultra lite. That motorists can't see and use the other two lanes IS indeed their problem.

That I sometimes confront motorists... hey, yes it is my problem, but sometimes you just gotta say EXCUUUUUSE ME! (-Steve Martin)

No hand wringing... just explainin' to SJ that sometimes one just has to take a lane... and obviously even with empty roads, some motorists still get bent out of shape. Go figure.

Personally, aside... I have devised the ideal solution... and the next time someone honks at me for being in the right lane when the left lane(s) is/are empty... I am moving left... no problem. No hand wringing. Just being traffic, man. :D

Helmet Head

ghettocruiser

I think what SJ meant by "motorists can tell the difference between a cyclist and all cyclists" is that he is confident that they won't hold the (what is perceived to be) rude behavior of one cyclist (namely you) against all cyclists (namely him). So it's no skin of his nose if you're "rude" to them.

This would come as news to the legions of BF posters tirelessly singing the "one cyclist breaking the law gives us all a bad name" refrain.

Six jours

Helmet Head is correct in his interpretation of my writing. Sorry if I wasn't clear. Maybe I need to take him off of "ignore" so that I can better follow the conversation.

Then again... :lol:

Helmet Head

This would come as news to the legions of BF posters tirelessly singing the "one cyclist breaking the law gives us all a bad name" refrain.
Agreed. But SJ's thinking isn't exactly consistent with the norm (for better or for worse).

Helmet Head

Whoa... slow down there big guy.

Let me give you some local specifics. I ride up and down Clairemont Mesa Blvd on a fairly regular basis... I live right off that road, so it is my home turf. When I take the lane to avoid the door zone, (and there are a ton of parked cars there and some not so bright people that really do just fling the doors open... or stand there with the door open... :rolleyes:) I often get honked at. So that is the background. Happens maybe about once a month. I ride the road almost daily.

I tell Six Jours I am perfectly justified in taking the right lane, primarily for the reason of avoiding the often opening doors... etc. He seems to feel that maybe (or maybe not) I am being an ahole for doing this, as I am "frustrating drivers" by "impeding traffic needlessly." He has offered no other solution... the alternatives are to ride in the very active door zone, or ride on the sidewalk, or take the lane. I take the lane. Very safe at the 35MPH of this area.

Now normally under such circumstances you might readily agree with me.

Six Jours went on to mention that motorists can tell "the difference between "a cyclist" and "all cyclists"." Whatever that means.

I go on to illustrate that no, even when all the other lanes are clear, some motorists are just off their rocker about cyclists... honking at me even when there is NO OTHER TRAFFIC, and I am using just one of the three lanes very empty lanes available. Yeah, I generally ignore them... but the fact that even when I am the only other traffic on the road, and there is plenty of room... some drivers still apparently cannot "handle" it.

Yeah I have confronted a driver or two in these circumstances... (in about a 7 year period) I mean com'on, the situation is so freakin' foolish, jeeze WTF.

But no matter... I see no problem taking the lane under those circumstances: when cycling beside parked cars in that multilaned situation, and especially when traffic is ultra lite. That motorists can't see and use the other two lanes IS indeed their problem.

That I sometimes confront motorists... hey, yes it is my problem, but sometimes you just gotta say EXCUUUUUSE ME! (-Steve Martin)

No hand wringing... just explainin' to SJ that sometimes one just has to take a lane... and obviously even with empty roads, some motorists still get bent out of shape. Go figure.

Personally, aside... I have devised the ideal solution... and the next time someone honks at me for being in the right lane when the left lane(s) is/are empty... I am moving left... no problem. No hand wringing. Just being traffic, man. :D

I'm just saying you seem to spend an inordinate amount of time and energy thinking and posting about a problem that amounts to about one honk a month.

Six jours

This would come as news to the legions of BF posters tirelessly singing the "one cyclist breaking the law gives us all a bad name" refrain.

Truth is, I'm kind of a fence-sitter on this one. When I personally see a motorcyclist, for instance, doing something stupid, I do not automatically assume that all motorcyclists are idiots. And so I assume that when the general public sees a bicyclist doing something inapropriate they have the sense to realize that doesn't mean all cyclists act inapropriately.

OTOH, I get kind of bent when I see the weekend "sport" cyclists crawling all over the landscape breaking every law they can. Enough exposure to motorcyclists going a thousand MPH everywhere, or bicyclists constantly running red lights, is liable to result in letters to congresscritters and legal burdens placed upon motorcyclists and cyclists.

So let's just say "It's not much skin off my nose." :)

genec

I'm just saying you seem to spend an inordinate amount of time and energy thinking and posting about a problem that amounts to about one honk a month.

Yeah, so certainly I am not "impeding traffic" as SJ seems to think. Only one honk a month.

But on a side note... when was the last time you were honked at while driving?

Six jours

Yeah, so certainly I am not "impeding traffic" as SJ seems to think. Only one honk a month.

Huh. But what about

I often do this on the 35MPH arterial that serves my neighborhood... it is two lanes either way and they are lined with parked cars that can and do have doors flung open at any time. I take the right lane and ride that way for the couple of miles it takes for me to get to my neighborhood. Motorists often take offense at that... even when the left lane is fully empty.

So motorists often take offense at you not impeding traffic? :p

Helmet Head

Yeah, so certainly I am not "impeding traffic" as SJ seems to think. Only one honk a month.

But on a side note... when was the last time you were honked at while driving?
While driving? Last week in Davis pulling out of mini mall parking lot onto westbound Covell. Some guy was barreling down and felt I cut in front of him. Maybe I did. Oops.

By the way, about half the cyclists I saw in Davis (and there were a lot of them) were riding on the side opposite vehicular traffic, in bike lanes.

genec

While driving? Last week in Davis pulling out of mini mall parking lot onto westbound Covell. Some guy was barreling down and felt I cut in front of him. Maybe I did. Oops.

OK, when was the last time you were honked at (yes while driving) when you were doing all the right things?

Anyway my point in that discussion (which apparently you missed) was that drivers feel "impeded" by even a lone cyclist when the road is otherwise wonderfully clear of any other traffic. And since I only get honked at about once a month, then how could my taking a lane even be an impediment anyway.

By the way, about half the cyclists I saw in Davis (and there were a lot of them) were riding on the side opposite vehicular traffic, in bike lanes.

Huh, you mean against the flow?

genec

Huh. But what about

So motorists often take offense at you not impeding traffic? :p

No, so my taking a lane can hardly be an impediment to traffic... yet some motorists seem to take offense when there is no other traffic on a three lane road, but me.

My point is I am not impeding traffic when I take a lane... as shown by the only one honk a month.

But on the other hand, some motorists take offense even when there are plenty of open lanes... certainly not a cyclists' problem. :p

Six jours

Seems to me like you think you're not impeding traffic and traffic is disagreeing. Hmm...

Helmet Head

OK, when was the last time you were honked at (yes while driving) when you were doing all the right things?
I can't remember. But I did honk at someone who was only going 80 in a 75 in the fast lane on I-5. Does that count? Technically, they were doing nothing wrong. But the law says I can honk at them to get them to move over.

Yielding for Passing
21753. Except when passing on the right is permitted, the driver of an overtaken vehicle shall safely move to the right-hand side of the highway in favor of the overtaking vehicle after an audible signal or a momentary flash of headlights by the overtaking vehicle, and shall not increase the speed of his or her vehicle until completely passed by the overtaking vehicle. This section does not require the driver of an overtaken vehicle to drive on the shoulder of the highway in order to allow the overtaking vehicle to pass.

http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21753.htm

Anyway my point in that discussion (which apparently you missed) was that drivers feel "impeded" by even a lone cyclist when the road is otherwise wonderfully clear of any other traffic. And since I only get honked at about once a month, then how could my taking a lane even be an impediment anyway.
I didn't miss it. My response is the same: so what? Why the consternation? Etc.

Huh, you mean against the flow?
Yep.

Helmet Head

Seems to me like you think you're not impeding traffic and traffic is disagreeing. Hmm...
Traffic is not disagreeing with him impeding. Traffic is disagreeing with him being there, period. Haven't you heard? Bikes simply don't belong in the road, impeding or not.

genec

Seems to me like you think you're not impeding traffic and traffic is disagreeing. Hmm...

So is a honk a month while taking the lane daily, impeding? Maybe in your eyes. In the eyes of HH it is nothing. So who is right?

And if I get honked at while all the other lanes are empty... what is the problem then?

Seems to me it all boils down to impatient motorists... 'cause I am being honked at whether I am taking a lane in in somewhat busy traffic, or taking a lane in a zero traffic situation.

Or perhaps motorists just don't like me. :eek: Sure, that could also be the case... if so 'eff em, cause there is no solution then.

genec

Traffic is not disagreeing with him impeding. Traffic is disagreeing with him being there, period. Haven't you heard? Bikes simply don't belong in the road, impeding or not.

Yup that is what the honks seem to be saying... 'cause dem honkers are doing it whether there is other traffic, or no traffic... they just don't like me. :eek:

Damn, does that mean Pete is right?

It certainly doesn't make Forester right...

I think I'll just go swim. Sharks like me. ;)

Or maybe just beer... :beer: Yeah, that's it. Beer likes me. Hmmmmm... beer.

Now, how to get there... oh crap. :o Beer... oh Beer.

Six jours

sbhikes

Is a honk a month acceptable by most people? It's not acceptable to me.

sbhikes

Helmet Head is correct in his interpretation of my writing. Sorry if I wasn't clear. Maybe I need to take him off of "ignore" so that I can better follow the conversation.

Then again... :lol:
But the clarity of his writing is so much better when you let others filter out the good parts.

Six jours

Traffic is not disagreeing with him impeding. Traffic is disagreeing with him being there, period. Haven't you heard? Bikes simply don't belong in the road, impeding or not.

When I put you on "ignore" it didn't occur to me that it would force you to create an imaginary opponent.

Well, I hope you're winning! LMAO.

genec

Before you started claiming that you get honked at once a month you said that motorists are "frequently offended" by your riding. In my case, I would take this as a hint that maybe I need to change my riding style. But then, I don't make a habit of interfering with traffic, I don't remember the last time I was honked at or "close-passed", and I have never been struck by a car outside of a race.

Seems to me that you dismiss any motorist criticism of your riding as "impatient motorists".

Well I though once a month was frequent. But HH says it isn't. I guess I am just confused. I need Beer.

They honk at me even if the entire rest of the road is wide open. Two other lanes wide open, and not a car in sight. And since there is no other place for me to be... (no shoulder, no bike lane... no WOL... and I can't fly... ) that pretty much means that either I should be in the left lane or the motorist is wrong.

That's it, I should be in the left lane... ah ha. Been doing it wrong all along.

Now go get beer.

LittleBigMan

But then, I don't make a habit of interfering with traffic, I don't remember the last time I was honked at or "close-passed", and I have never been struck by a car outside of a race.

Neither have I been struck by a car in over 10 years of commuting 30+ miles round-trip in Atlanta, the so-called "cycling hell-hole of the universe."

I had two crashes: a pedestrian clotheslined me in 2001, and I slipped on an old-fashioned RR track crossing. Other than that, it's been wonderful.

Six jours

That's it, I should be in the left lane... ah ha. Been doing it wrong all along.
Last week while doing the local club run I followed a fellow ascending one of the local climbs. The shoulder of this road is inexplicable -- the road is two lanes in both directions and the Northbound portion has a shoulder at least 15 feet wide. The fellow I rode behind stayed in the middle of the right lane, which didn't bother me as there was zero traffic. I just didn't understand it, as that particular shoulder is practically a freeway for bicyclists. Figured maybe I was seeing my first real live "VCer" in action.

Anyway, on the downhill we accelerated past 35 MPH or so and the fellow moved into the center of the left lane. I don't know if that was VC or PCP or what, but there you go. I'm sure he had his reasons, or that he thought he did, anyway.

Now go get beer.
I knew we'd come to some kind of understanding! I'll be waist deep in Asahi within thirty minutes, friend. Hope you survive your offensive, motorist-maddening commute to hoist a few yourself.:beer:

genec

I knew we'd come to some kind of understanding! I'll be waist deep in Asahi within thirty minutes, friend. Hope you survive your offensive, motorist-maddening commute to hoist a few yourself.:beer:

I hope to find a few Stone IPAs in the old home fridge. :beer:

LittleBigMan

Last week while doing the local club run I followed a fellow ascending one of the local climbs. The shoulder of this road is inexplicable -- the road is two lanes in both directions and the Northbound portion has a shoulder at least 15 feet wide. The fellow I rode behind stayed in the middle of the right lane, which didn't bother me as there was zero traffic. I just didn't understand it, as that particular shoulder is practically a freeway for bicyclists. Figured maybe I was seeing my first real live "VCer" in action.

Anyway, on the downhill we accelerated past 35 MPH or so and the fellow moved into the center of the left lane. I don't know if that was VC or PCP or what, but there you go. I'm sure he had his reasons, or that he thought he did, anyway.

What the hell. How can you call that "VC?"

Sounds more like, "PCP."

Grinding an ax?

sbhikes

I need Beer.
I wish I could put more quotes in my signature. That's a good one.

I like that Hefer-whatever beer myself. Or Guiness. Or wine.

joejack951

I wish I could put more quotes in my signature. That's a good one.

I like that Hefer-whatever beer myself. Or Guiness. Or wine.

Hefeweizen? And Guiness? Oh my god! Diane and I actually agree about something ;)

JRA

Is a honk a month acceptable by most people? It's not acceptable to me.I can't speak for most people. For me, it depends on the honk. Is it a little old lady giving me a "just to let you know I'm behind you" honk or a guy in a rusted-out pickup giving me a "get the *()& out of my way" honk? I can tolerate an almost unlimited number of the former. The latter can be a little disconcerting, even for a crusty old codger like myself. I can't even imagine what it must be like for a beginner. But, then, there's not a whole lot anybody can do to completely eliminate unpleasant interactions between bicyclists and motorists. Some people are just jerks and nothing is ever going to change that.

Is a "get off the road" honk ever acceptable?

No, not really.

While experienced cyclists can probably deal with such honks, a significant number of cyclists probably can't.

It's a problem but it's unclear what the solution is.

The honks I get seem to depend a lot on where I ride. From where I live: When I ride East and South, I get more honks (and more nasty honks) than if I ride West and North; riding directly West seems to result in the least (and most polite) honks. When I ride East and North, honks are the least of my worries :D.

And now, it seems, when I ride up in the Arch, I have to worry about the cable breaking. Things are tough all over. :D

LittleBigMan

What the hell. How can you call that "VC?"

Sounds more like, "PCP."

Grinding an ax?

EDIT: I guess I was in a overyly perky mood when I posted this. Sorry (but I still don't think it's VC to ride all over the street, including the oncoming lanes. ;) )

genec

I can't speak for most people. For me, it depends on the honk. Is it a little old lady giving me a "just to let you know I'm behind you" honk or a guy in a rusted-out pickup giving me a "get the *()& out of my way" honk? I can tolerate an almost unlimited number of the former. The latter can be a little disconcerting, even for a crusty old codger like myself. I can't even imagine what it must be like for a beginner. But, then, there's not a whole lot anybody can do to completely eliminate unpleasant interactions between bicyclists and motorists. Some people are just jerks and nothing is ever going to change that.

Is a "get off the road" honk ever acceptable?

No, not really.

While experienced cyclists can probably deal with such honks, a significant number of cyclists probably can't.

It's a problem but it's unclear what the solution is.

The honks I get seem to depend a lot on where I ride. From where I live: When I ride East and South, I get more honks (and more nasty honks) than if I ride West and North; riding directly West seems to result in the least (and most polite) honks. When I ride East and North, honks are the least of my worries :D.

And now, it seems, when I ride up in the Arch, I have to worry about the cable breaking. Things are tough all over. :D

Not to keep this thing alive... but you are really hitting the nail on the head.

A honk that is a real warning or a friendly little honk is one thing. But the same "laying on hard" honk over and over again for something you know is the right thing to do, while it can be ignored, is just annoying.

And when such a honk comes at a time when frankly there is no 'effin' reason for it (like when the rest of the darn road is completly empty) then it is time for a bit of EXCUUUUUSE ME reaction.

Of course HH and some others say just to ignore such honks... I feel that in the case totally inexcuseable honks (where the rest of the road is wide open) perhaps a conversation is needed to straighten things out a bit to try to set things right for the next cyclist encounter. Maybe I can't change a mind, but I am sure gonna offer the legal reality. (I carry cards with the cycling laws on them).

In my 30+ years of cycling, I feel that civility on the road has gone down hill... and perhaps sometimes folks just need a courtesy reminder.