One of my favorite things to say to a JAM:
"Excuse me but I thought you would like to know that pissing people off is not a good thing as it looks like someone keyed your car."

Of course it is a total lie but it really puts the fear of god into a JAM.

One of my favorite things to say to a JAM:
"Excuse me but I thought you would like to know that pissing people off is not a good thing as it looks like someone keyed your car."

Of course it is a total lie but it really puts the fear of god into a JAM.

"Excuse me I just didn't see the cyclist... "

Sorry, but I don't believe retaliation is the answer. Discussion is as far as I am willing to go.

I don’t believe in retaliation either but my discussion with driver generally end up like “So you care more about your paint job then human life. That’s just sad. And what would happen to your paint job if I wasn’t able to avoid you? We both would lose.”

I don't think I've ever seen a "discussion" between a cyclist and a car driver that didn't go something along the lines of "@#$ %$^# %$^#$!" "Oh yeah? #$^% ^#$%^ &*^& and your mother!"

But then, I don't ride in front of traffic, so haven't had any "conversations" with car drivers in the last 20 years or so. :p

I don't think I've ever seen a "discussion" between a cyclist and a car driver that didn't go something along the lines of "@#$ %$^# %$^#$!" "Oh yeah? #$^% ^#$%^ &*^& and your mother!"

Really? I have had conversations with motorists that went along the lines of "Oh I didn't know that... "



But then, I don't ride in front of traffic, so haven't had any "conversations" with car drivers in the last 20 years or so. :p

Hey, even though "we had beer," you never did tell me how you would ride on my 35MPH arterial with 2 lanes either way and lots of parked cars along the side with doors that fling open at any time. This is my way home, and there are no alternative routes. So what magic would you use that would not involve not riding in front of motor vehicles. Even the sidewalk riders get in front of motor vehicles where the sidewalks don't exist. And I still can't fly. And remember, even when there is well more than plenty of room to pass, motorists still honk.

So what is your magic... you only ride off road?

I don’t believe in retaliation either but my discussion with driver generally end up like “So you care more about your paint job then human life. That’s just sad. And what would happen to your paint job if I wasn’t able to avoid you? We both would lose.”

I thought your reference was to keying a car.

Actually the line that I like when nothing else seems to work is "What would Jesus do?"

Hey, even though "we had beer," you never did tell me how you would ride on my 35MPH arterial with 2 lanes either way and lots of parked cars along the side with doors that fling open at any time.

I got tired of the never ending "scenarios" game. I always start off trying to be reasonable by saying things like "There are certainly times when it may be appropriate to 'take the lane', but I don't agree with the "VC" attitude of 'default center unless you have no other choice'", but within a few pages you guys are going "Well, where I live the DMV plants Claymore mines on the shoulder and Martians use the bike lane for practicing with their death rays, so what am I supposed to then, Mr. Smartypants?!?"

So you do what you think is best in your unique situation, and I'll do what I think is best in mine. And the next time someone starts in about how bike lanes are evil plots to take over the universe and riding in them puts me on the moral level of Adolf Eichmann, we'll start all over again. :)

I got tired of the never ending "scenarios" game. I always start off trying to be reasonable by saying things like "There are certainly times when it may be appropriate to 'take the lane', but I don't agree with the "VC" attitude of 'default center unless you have no other choice'", but within a few pages you guys are going "Well, where I live the DMV plants Claymore mines on the shoulder and Martians use the bike lane for practicing with their death rays, so what am I supposed to then, Mr. Smartypants?!?"

So you do what you think is best in your unique situation, and I'll do what I think is best in mine. And the next time someone starts in about how bike lanes are evil plots to take over the universe and riding in them puts me on the moral level of Adolf Eichmann, we'll start all over again. :)

Well I don't buy the default center thing... but I do move to the center when and where I need to. The big issue with default center is that it requires a cyclist to pay a lot of attention to the rear when more than likely they may be riding into something ahead that requires attention. Intersections are more of a problem than overtaking motorists. Although inattention at speed does add to the issue of overtaking motorists.

I don't ride centerish unless it is required. That motorists may take offense at that, is their problem... as illustrated by motorists that take offense when there is plenty of empty road for them to use. (that was my point of all the never ending "scenarios,") BTW none of which was a "game," just the truth as it actually happened. I don't play that logical what if game... too many things out there on the road defy logic and depend more on emotional response.

That shareing a road is "any sort of problem" is due to the motorist centeric attitude of this country.

As I have stated before, in other countries, and even in many of the rural areas of this country, often the realization that the roads are shared, is well understood.

I got tired of the never ending "scenarios" game. I always start off trying to be reasonable by saying things like "There are certainly times when it may be appropriate to 'take the lane', but I don't agree with the "VC" attitude of 'default center unless you have no other choice'", but within a few pages you guys are going "Well, where I live the DMV plants Claymore mines on the shoulder and Martians use the bike lane for practicing with their death rays, so what am I supposed to then, Mr. Smartypants?!?":)


:roflmao::love:

I can't speak for most people. For me, it depends on the honk. Is it a little old lady giving me a "just to let you know I'm behind you" honk or a guy in a rusted-out pickup giving me a "get the *()& out of my way" honk? I can tolerate an almost unlimited number of the former. The latter can be a little disconcerting, even for a crusty old codger like myself. I can't even imagine what it must be like for a beginner. But, then, there's not a whole lot anybody can do to completely eliminate unpleasant interactions between bicyclists and motorists. Some people are just jerks and nothing is ever going to change that.

Is a "get off the road" honk ever acceptable?

No, not really.

While experienced cyclists can probably deal with such honks, a significant number of cyclists probably can't.

It's a problem but it's unclear what the solution is.

The honks I get seem to depend a lot on where I ride. From where I live: When I ride East and South, I get more honks (and more nasty honks) than if I ride West and North; riding directly West seems to result in the least (and most polite) honks. When I ride East and North, honks are the least of my worries :D.

And now, it seems, when I ride up in the Arch, I have to worry about the cable breaking. Things are tough all over. :D

What the Vehicular Cyclist (TM) crowd just doesn't seem to understand is that the lay on the horn honks, were they to happen once a month, would be unacceptable to most people. An angry horn honk a month represents one potential road rage incident per month. This is an unacceptable risk for most people. It certainly would be unacceptable to me. It would lead me and most people to give up cycling.

But VCers aren't really about increasing ridership and I am, so that is why I don't subscribe to Vehicular Cyclist (TM) philosophy.

What the Vehicular Cyclist (TM) crowd just doesn't seem to understand is that the lay on the horn honks, were they to happen once a month, would be unacceptable to most people.You know what: I don't give rat's behind what the VC-ist crowd understands or doesn't understand. To the extent that they put any stock in Forester's nutjob psychological and social theories, the Followers of The Great One are as full of crap as he is.

But then, I don't ride in front of traffic, so haven't had any "conversations" with car drivers in the last 20 years or so. :p
That may be true where you ride.

But I've ridden "in front of traffic" for maybe 10 years or so, and it never leads to "conversations."

Oh, wait, there was the lady who rolled down her window and said, "I see you every morning. I always honk gently to let you know I'm there, and I give you plenty of room when I pass."

:)

that's mighty christian of her!

boy, Atlanta sure sounds idyllic for bicycling :rolleyes:

man, we must have a bunch of ragin' cagers out here in the northwest, I've been riding in front of drivers for decades, and get a rude comment and ragin' cagers at least twice a month.... .

what am i doing wrong? not taking the lane in the proscribed vc manner?

Regardless, I STILL doubt john rides much anymore. He's riding his memories.

boy, Atlanta sure sounds idyllic for bicycling :rolleyes:

man, we must have a bunch of ragin' cagers out here in the northwest, I've been riding in front of drivers for decades, and get a rude comment and ragin' cagers at least twice a month.... .

what am i doing wrong?
I have two suggestions:

1)
I hope you do not end up riding in the places I ride, as most of the motorists I encounter are, if not friendly, at least willing to consider my safety. Your "Screw you" attitude would have a negative impact on that relationship, I think.

2) Move.

are you insuinating bicyclists don't have the rights to the road where some of us live, LBM? ;) and that I need to move to a place like Atlanta to enjoy the right to ride my bike free of motorist harassment?

sorry, I think you sugar coat the bicycling in Atlanta, as if knowledge of VC melts all driver ill will away.

we had a thread recently about this in the VC forum...... how VC is not the panacea, does not turn locales into peaceful mayberry soley by rider knowledge of how to ride vehicularily.

and none of this is relevant to the apparant fact that JOHN FORESTER IS A BICYCLING HAS-BEEN, riding his memories while promoting urban sprawl that does not inculcate bicycling in a community, despite how he spins it.

are you insuinating bicyclists don't have the rights to the road where some of us live, LBM?
I would believe more about what you said about your own city if what you said about my experience wasn't so ignorant.

If I listened to you, I'd still be waiting to ride my bike in Atlanta. When should I stop waiting and start riding my bike, Bek? When I hit 50? 60?

what ARE you talking about????

Are you trying to say that you still experience intolerant motorists, but that doesn't matter anymore? After drinking the forester Kool-aid, bicyclists ride in a Huxlean La-La land, assertively taking the lane amidst blanket motorist respect, smiles, and little old ladies waving and politely tootling their horns?

None of this changes the fact john rides little anymore, erronously and quixotically muddles riding post-WWII to the 1970's with today's road conditions, and actively promotes urban sprawl.

what ARE you talking about????

I repeat:

man, we must have a bunch of ragin' cagers out here in the northwest, I've been riding in front of drivers for decades, and get a rude comment and ragin' cagers at least twice a month.... .

what am i doing wrong?
I have two suggestions:

1) Originally Posted by Six jours I hope you do not end up riding in the places I ride, as most of the motorists I encounter are, if not friendly, at least willing to consider my safety. Your "Screw you" attitude would have a negative impact on that relationship, I think.


2) Move.
Just because you experience "ragin cagers" at least twice a month, that doesn't men all of us do. Maybe you should try something different. Of if it's not you're attitude they're picking up on, you might try relocating.

how grossly un-VC of you to make that suggestion.

how grossly un-VC of you to make that suggestion.
Your sarcasm aside, I believe it was you who claimed you had a verbal tete-a-tete with aggressive motorsts as least twice a month. When I said I didn't have that kind of problem in Atlanta, you kept telling me I was sugar-coating the facts.

It's probably hard for you to disbelieve the propaganda you've been fed.

Either that, or like I said, maybe the difference in the way motorists treat me is based on how I treat them on a regular basis. It's all conjecture, to be sure.

But I'm searching for a reasonable explanation as to why you seem to have more problems with motorists than I do. Is it your region, or do you have an anti-motorist attitude? Or what?

Please, you tell me.

the fantasy of atlanta bicyclists never encountering angry motorists is nothing but sugar coated myth you throw about this forum. Soma-addled senior citizens politely tootling their horns at bicyclists as they assert their road rights in Atlanta - that's the propaganda.

In this thread I'd rather focus on john forester no longer being a bicyclist, a quixotic, acerbic has-been that actively promotes transportation-bicyclist unfriendly urban sprawl in America, to be honest with you, little big man.

the fantasy of atlanta bicyclists never encountering angry motorists is nothing but sugar coated myth you throw about this forum. Soma-addled senior citizens politely tootling their horns at bicyclists as they assert their road rights in Atlanta - that's the propaganda.
Interesting. I gave my honest experience in Atlanta. But you don't believe it because it doesn't fit what you already believe. So you claim I'm the one who must be making up stories. You don't consider the possibility that you might be wrong.

Robert Millikan, winner of the Nobel Prize for Physics in 1923, once said, "There is no likelihood man can ever tap the power of the atom." Enrico Fermi proved him wrong in 1942. So don't worry, you're in noble company for being wrong once in a while.

Oh, the other day a "Bubba in a truck" (a big, bright, shiny red one with a huge Gawgia Bulldog sticker on the back :) ) passed me on a shoulderless, two-lane 45 mph. artery, while I was climbing a tall hill on my recumbent. He crossed the double-yellow line and moved entirely into the oncoming lane, while he passed at a reasonably slow speed. :D

how come you started another thread recently about how everyone has run-ins with ragin cagers?

kind of dishonest of you to pretend you don't encounter angry motorists if you started a thread that indicates the contrary, yes?

anyway, this thread is about john foresters' lack of 21st century bicycling.

What would colonel pope do about bicycling in the 21st century, fall back on his experiences in the 1880's? john confuses his bicycling experiences post WWII and the 1970's with today's road, driver and traffic conditions.

how come you started another thread recently about how everyone has run-ins with ragin cagers?

kind of dishonest of you to pretend you don't encounter angry motorists if you started a thread that indicates the contrary, yes?
If I were being dishonest, why would I start a thread inviting people to comment on their experiences on the very subject I was trying to cover up?

And there you go with that "dishonest" accusation again. Seems like you are so confident in your own beliefs that you'd rather call someone else "dishonest" than re-examine yourself, if their report conflicts with your ideas.

anyway, this thread is about john foresters' lack of 21st century bicycling.


Oh. It's about John Forester's 21st century bicycling, not mine?

If we are to compare John Forester's 21st century bicycling with yours, why can't we compare yours to mine?

lbm, either you experience occasional run ins with ragin' cagers, or you don't. a lot of your unadulating priase for vc riding has you claiming Atlanta is the bicyclists' promised land, where, solely because of how you ride your bike, have no harassing altercations with drivers.


which one is it, lbm? despite your vc skills, do you still experience angry motorists when you bike, or don't you?

now, i imagine john has no altercations with ragin' cagers, because he doesn't ride much anymore.

this thread is about john's lack of contemporary riding experience, and how he confuses riding post WWII thru the 1970's with 21 century bicycling.

why can't we compare yours to mine?

Mine is bigger than yours.

And isn't that just too typical of the A&S quality of discourse. Lol.

lbm, either you experience occasional run ins with ragin' cagers, or you don't. a lot of your unadulating priase for vc riding has you claiming Atlanta is the bicyclists' promised land, where, solely because of how you ride your bike, have no harassing altercations with drivers.


which one is it, lbm? despite your vc skills, do you still experience angry motorists when you bike, or don't you?

now, i imagine john has no altercations with ragin' cagers, because he doesn't ride much anymore.

this thread is about john's lack of contemporary riding experience, and how he confuses riding post WWII thru the 1970's with 21 century bicycling.

You're another liar about my cycling years. And, I repeat, there has been no significant difference between 1999 and 2007. People who frequently lie show both their character and their failure to have credible opinions.

You're another liar about my cycling years. And, I repeat, there has been no significant difference between 1999 and 2007. People who frequently lie show both their character and their failure to have credible opinions.
You’re yet another liar, there has been significant difference between 1999 and 2007 just to name a few, road rage, distracted driving, higher speed limits and bikeable shoulders turning into more travel lanes.

You are a prime example of people who rely on insult to “prove” a point but fail to site any credible evidence.

Mine is bigger than yours.

And isn't that just too typical of the A&S quality of discourse. Lol.
Gee, maybe now we can see who can spit the furthest? (Watch out, I can hang a lugee on a barbed wire fence from 6 feet. :rolleyes: )

It's a joke, mate. Good grief.

lbm, either you experience occasional run ins with ragin' cagers, or you don't.
Of course I do, everyone does (especially "cagers" themselves.) But that's not the point. You seem to have more run-ins than I do. (Mine is smaller than yours, in other words.)

a lot of your unadulating priase for vc riding has you claiming Atlanta is the bicyclists' promised land, where, solely because of how you ride your bike, have no harassing altercations with drivers.
No, I just said I ride in Atlanta, 30 miles round trip, and drivers almost never hassle me. Do you want me to say something else?

I invite Atlantans to post their experiences. This is an open forum. If they have a different experience than mine, that's the way the ball bounces.


which one is it, lbm? despite your vc skills, do you still experience angry motorists when you bike, or don't you?
Mr. Bekology, if you were to read my posts of so many years, you'd find I've had my share of altercations with unreasonable motorists. You'd also find that I've been just as unreasonable at times. I've never denied it.

But you are still having a problem reconciling your experiences with mine, so instead of looking deeper, you simply believe me a liar. So be it. It's your life.

Could it be my experiences in Atlanta have blown your stereotypes apart, and that's why you can't afford not to frame me as a liar?
now, i imagine john has no altercations with ragin' cagers, because he doesn't ride much anymore.

this thread is about john's lack of contemporary riding experience, and how he confuses riding post WWII thru the 1970's with 21 century bicycling.
I really don't care if John Forester rides a bike anymore. You're the one who has so much bet on him, one way or the other.

I just go on about my cycling business, regardless of your opinions of me. And I keep posting my experiences, which you have a hard time letting go of.

You're another liar about my cycling years.
Good for you, John. When someone tells an untruth about me, I like to call a spade a spade.

And Bek, if someone lied about you, I'd set them straight, too. If it were me who wrongly spoke of you, Bek, I'd search my intentions and seek to correct myself.

Try me, Bek.

But never ask me to lie about my own experiences.

sorry, john, but in this forum since you joined, you often wax melancholic about you advocacy efforts in the 1970's, road and cycling conditions in the 1970's, and very little about today. you also mention your riding in the 1940's, along the PCH as an example.

John, because I'm curious

1) When was the last time you went for a good long bike ride,
2) did you ride in any bike lanes (your community is filled with bike lanes, I've heard)
and
3) when was the last time you experienced an irate motorist, honking or close swerving?

(I got one today out of 60 miles total, as I held position a few feet from the curb of a merge lane onto a 45MPH six lane arterial. dude had plenty of room to pass, but just had to honk and agressively pass and flip the bird at me as I rode, vehicularily.)

(I got one today out of 60 miles total, as I held position a few feet from the curb of a merge lane onto a 45MPH six lane arterial. dude had plenty of room to pass, but just had to honk and agressively pass and flip the bird at me as I rode, vehicularily.)[/i]
So what? In 3 or more hours of riding, one guy flips you off?

Aren't you focusing on the one negative part of your ride?

And you know for a fact this was because you were "riding vehicularly," and not for any other reason, such as:

1) The driver was a complete a55hole anyway.

2) His wife just told him so. :roflmao:

3) He hates cyclists who are fit and healthy (unlike him.)

4) He just lost his job, or a promotion, or his wallet, or something.

5) He's got a criminal record.

6) He's just a plain a55hole (did I say that already?)

the rest of the ride was quite nice, thank you. I'm mentioning the fact that, despite my riding vehicularily, one driver decided to harass me today. this shouldn't happen, according to how things supposedly play out for riders that ride vehicularily, right, lilbigman?

vc only have polite interactions with drivers is the fantasy you incessantly throw around A&S, correct?

I'm curious about the last time john encountered a JAM...

the rest of the ride was quite nice, thank you. I'm mentioning the fact that, despite my riding vehicularily, one driver decided to harass me today.
I'm curious, Bek. How often do you "ride vehicularly?" All the time?

And, while you're riding that way, how often do you get harassed by motorists?

Do you ride vehicularly in a bike lane? Out of a bike lane? Do drivers harass you in bike lanes? Do they harass you out of bike lanes?

Let's get down to brass tacks: why do motorists harass you? Because you are not in a bike lane?

this shouldn't happen, according to how things supposedly play out for riders that ride vehicularily, right, lilbigman?
"Vehicularly?" As in, "the way road users treat each other?"

You are confused, perhaps you should get behind the wheel of a [dreaded] car and see how much abuse you receive in one hour. You have it sweet on the bike, guy. ;)

vc only have polite interactions with drivers is the fantasy you incessantly throw around A&S, correct?
:lol: Still fishing that long river in Egypt?

It's you that seem to have so many run-ins with drivers. I still can't figure out why.

John, you've piqued my interest.

1) When was the last time you went for a good long bike ride,
2) did you ride in any bike lanes (your community is filled with bike lanes, I've heard)
and
3) when was the last time you experienced an irate motorist, honking or close swerving?

sorry, john, but in this forum since you joined, you often wax melancholic about you advocacy efforts in the 1970's, road and cycling conditions in the 1970's, and very little about today. you also mention your riding in the 1940's, along the PCH as an example.
[/i]

Bekologist, I'm going to suspend the Swiftian flourish I usually bring into these discussions (a flourish I cultivate partly because I have a knack for driving people into a frenzied rage, and feel that it's a talent worth exercising).

I'm going to suspend it in order to ask a few direct questions.

Why do you have such hostility toward the traditions of road cycling? When a very young cyclist whose entire exposure to cycling has consisted of the BMX or fixie/delivery culture does one of the "Hey, dude... like why do you old dudes follow all these RULES?" posts I can understand it somewhat. They're from a different cultural background than me, they're very young, and there's been a discontinuity in the US with the vehicular/road cycling traditions due to the bicycle-as-a-toy attitude which existed in the US from the post-WWII era through the 1960s. But I've read some of the posts you've written outside the A&S forums, and you obviously fall within my much maligned criteria as a "serious cyclist".

Why are you so obsessed with Forester? You've carried this off into the non-A&S forums by maintaining the neurotic signature line. I, of course, view Forester as an important figure in the history of cycling in the US. He's the link between earlier British/US cycling traditions and the current incoherent, feelgood advocacy which has arisen with the new cycling boom. To some extent his work on the Effective Cycling program has mitigated the worst damage of the bicycle-as-a-toy years. On the other hand Forester can't have been more warm and cuddly with me than he has been with you. So what did he do to you that drove you over the deep end?

I'm finding it hard to figure out a relatively soft manner in which to put this, but do you have some sort of phobia around aging which leads you to harangue someone who is 78 years old about their current cycling practice? I'm 56, and while I still put my weekly miles in, I'm most definitely starting to feel the effects of aging. I have no idea what Forester's reasons are for cycling less, but my assumption is that Eddy Merckx is no longer racing, and Sandy Koufax doesn't pitch a whole lot. I'd still listen to their opinions about racing and pitching in a heartbeat. And they're both younger than Forester. So how about it Bekologist? When us old guys stop producing should we be sent to the glue factory?

I'm finding it hard to figure out a relatively soft manner in which to put this, but [why] do you have some sort of phobia around aging which leads you to harangue someone who is 78 years old about their current cycling practice?
Because he's not 78, yet.

My dad was a patriotic "ride to work" cyclist in the 70's. He was in his 50's.

(everyone can grab a hanky, here. :rolleyes: )

Now, he's 84. He'd absolutely love to ride his precious bike, the same one he rode back then, the same one sitting in his garage in mountainous Estes Park, CO.

As a matter of fact, he'd love to walk, but his osteoporotic hip makes it, well, a tweak uneasy. And then, there's his Parkinson's.

This is not the discussion 40-somethings' love to discuss, unless their parents are 80-something.

Thanks for putting it "delicately," Larry. Anyone who asked my dad why he wasn't still walking like a young man might get an animated ACME anvil on their head, courtesy of yours-truly.

john's sold out. he got sent packing from the LAB. and he continues to 'represent' bicycling to groups that oppose valuable projects to increase the bikeability in communities. his invective against the majority of american bicyclists is one of the reasons I despise his point of view.

why do i loathe his continued influence in american bicycling? vehicular cyclists should be advocating for improved road conditions INCLUDING bike lanes along high speed arterials and not settling for the dystopian VC pledge of 'increased pavement width'. what a great way to keep bicycling stunted in communities.


I despise johns invective against the majority, against populist bicycling.

...vehicular cyclists should be advocating for improved road conditions INCLUDING bike lanes along high speed arterials...

I despise johns invective against the majority, against populist bicycling.
Fair enough. Honestly spoken.

No problem.

john's sold out. he got sent packing from the LAB. and he continues to 'represent' bicycling to groups that oppose valuable projects to increase the bikeability in communities. his invective against the majority of american bicyclists is one of the reasons I despise his point of view.

why do i loathe his continued influence in american bicycling? vehicular cyclists should be advocating for improved road conditions INCLUDING bike lanes along high speed arterials and not settling for the dystopian VC pledge of 'increased pavement width'. what a great way to keep bicycling stunted in communities.


I despise johns invective against the majority, against populist bicycling.

Could you answer the three questions I actually asked? If you think any of those three questions is unfair or demagogic, you can state as much, but I'd really like you to focus on the questions

you think I have 'hostility for the traditions of road cycling?' :roflmao: and a 'phobia about aging?' :roflmao:

I'd rather john anwser the questions i've posed to him, you fawning foresterite.

Well, I can say truthfully, not be called a liar by my friends and family, that I still ride MY bike. It seems that the more I ride the mellower I get, and if rode as many miles in one day just for pizza as Bek does, I could be in a room filled full of adversaries, and probably wouldn't have a care in the world. Bek, you ever thought of taking up randonneuring? :p

you think I have 'hostility for the traditions of road cycling?' :roflmao: and a 'phobia about aging?' :roflmao:

I'd rather john anwser the questions i've posed to him, you fawning foresterite.

[EDITED for spelling errors]

"fawning foresterite". :D I like that, Bekologist. It has a lot of potential. I've always had a fondness for Spiro Agnew alliteration. You need a third word in there to bring it up to the level of "nattering nabobs of negativism", though. You could try something like "fawning follower of foresterism", or even "fawning foresterite fool". With just two alliterated words it seems more like early 70's American Maoist polemic ("treacherous Trotskyites"). And you don't want to get stuck in that literary rut.

I can see you're not going to answer the questions I put to you (except with little rolling emoticons) so I'll leave you to your repetitive obsession.

John, you've piqued my interest.

1) When was the last time you went for a good long bike ride,
2) did you ride in any bike lanes (your community is filled with bike lanes, I've heard)
and
3) when was the last time you experienced an irate motorist, honking or close swerving?

I thought "fawning" was a bit watered-down for an "f" word. Good job toning down the rhetoric.