Like many others here, I have followed the Tour closely and posted and read most of the treads about Le Tour on BF. Over the past couple of weeks, I have read countless derogatory posts about Levi and Cadel, primarily about their performances in the mountains and to some extent the TT. The just of the posts is that a few riders were weak, not aggressive and an overall disappointment. Perhaps I am naïve, but I think these two riders are probably clean. Yet, prior to the latest doping crises started, these riders were disparaged by a number of posts on BF.
Perhaps things changed in the LA era. People want the attacks on the mountains and the super-human feats to marvel at. Much like I think many fans initially turned a blind eye to the steroids scandal in baseball because they enjoyed the Sosa – Maguire home run chase, I think some cycling fans hold some responsibility for this mess too. Perhaps “responsibility” is too strong of a word. I will use an a drug analogy as an illustration. We the cycling fans are the addicts. We want to see unbelievable feats of human endurance. We drool over blindingly fast sprints and TTs and a watch with awe as freaks of nature climb in the mountains like they are catapulted by the gods. The riders in the pro peleton are simply our dealer – our suppliers. They give us the fix – provide the high we so desperately want.
What do you think? Do you think we have created a demand for a form of riding that can only be accomplished through doping?
Ernesto Schwein
07-26-07, 12:44 PM
no.
modernjess
07-26-07, 12:47 PM
follow the money
blue_nose
07-26-07, 12:51 PM
follow the money
I don't think it is about the - more about the glory and fame. I am not saying the money hurts, but more like a perk that comes with being a star.
There cannot be celebrities without fans. No fans - no money.
'nother
07-26-07, 12:55 PM
The fact that it is a race is what is responsible for the various methods of cheating. It is human nature. If there is even a *chance* of cheating for some advantage without getting caught, someone will do it.
indygreg
07-26-07, 12:56 PM
We are responsible at some level, yes. We are fans, we watch the race and buy the products. If everyone stopped watching (or attending) and buying the gear when the first doping was found years ago . . . they would have had to change their ways.
However, this is an unrealistic view. It does not happen. Mass boycotts and no-shows never happen in sports. The role of the fan is nearly unconditional love.
merlinextraligh
07-26-07, 12:58 PM
Less dope = more uncertainty = better tours.
Many people believe that the mechanical, predictable way the TDF was raced from the late 90's till last year is attributable to doping (or at least doping contributed to it)
No one cares what the average speeds are, as long as the racing is exciting.
So a totally clean peleton might be slower, but the racing would likely be better.
NotReady4Purple
07-26-07, 01:02 PM
If everyone is responsible, then no one is responsible.
I don't buy it.
lotek
07-26-07, 01:37 PM
we are not responsible but I do agree with OP that we need to take
our fair share of the blame. There is tremendous pressure on these
guys to perform, win stages, support team leads etc. and on a certain
level we do want to see epic battles and dramatic wins etc.
add that to the pressure from the sponsors and there is plenty
of motivation to cheat
marty
OrionKhan
07-26-07, 01:46 PM
No. The people responsible for doping are the one's doping. Period. The people to blame are the dopers. We need to stop making excuses for people and stop trying to find out who's "responsible" or who's to "blame". Vino is responsible for someone else's blood in his system. Period. Rasmussen is responsible for not taking the tests and lying about where he was. Period.
haimtoeg
07-26-07, 02:10 PM
no we are not.
ryanspeer
07-26-07, 02:13 PM
I don't think anybody in Le Tour could care less about anybody or their opinions on BF or similar communities. They race because they love it, because they're good at it, and because they're paid to. I can't imagine any actual valid pressure that has even an ice cube's chance in hell in changing their minds coming from anywhere other than their doctors, fellow racers, a never-ending desire to win at all costs (for those predisposed to doping), etc.
When they see others getting away with it, it's got to be hard to not think that maybe they can get away with it as well.
VT Biker
07-26-07, 02:16 PM
We as fans are partly responsible when we suspend reality in order to defend people we idolized. Perfect example is Lance Armstrong. As fans, because we continue to respect him as a person, he is still rewarded for doping. So other riders look at Armstrong and see the benefits and rewards of doping.
If we as fans turned our back on Lance, then perhaps other cyclists would realize that the reward is not there.
orestes
07-26-07, 02:45 PM
Cheaters are selfish and think only of themselves. I imagine for them the fans are secondary. Their goal is to take advantage, win bigger contracts and sponsors. With that said, I agree, as it is with other big time sports, it’s the money.
Keith99
07-26-07, 05:07 PM
What do you think? Do you think we have created a demand for a form of riding that can only be accomplished through doping?
No. Actually H3ll NO! Going just a little faster on a bike does not make the sport exciting. On the climbs they are slow enough that fans can run faster than they are climbing (at least for a little while).
Excitement is when a rider gets dropped and tries to fight back (it does not even matter if he makes it in the end). Excitement is when a rider may gain of lose 10 places on any given day. Doping has more than anything else helped recovery. Few bad days. It has added depth so that until near the end every key rider usually has support. For whatever small gains it gives in speed and endurance it loses far more in breaks, both riders off the front and off the back.
ken cummings
07-26-07, 05:35 PM
I don't know if we fans share the responsibility for doping. I've known enough bike racers and their managers over the years to know that some have a win at any cost mentality. Not all of them or even many of them. I am confident that if we fans make it clear that we want a clean sport we can start to get one. In the mean time remember the stale cliche, "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water."
Smoothie104
07-26-07, 05:38 PM
Bro,
they've been doping in cycling for over 100 years...and they used to be a lot more open about it.
as far as the fans go? How about those big dude who throw the shot put in the olympics... not a lot of fans, no big $$ endorsement deals, no cereal boxes etc.. just a gold medal in a sport thats barely on the radar anywhere. They get busted for roids plenty.. and for what?
iab
07-26-07, 06:25 PM
Smoothie is right, there have been dopers from the beginning of racing in the 19th century. France's greatest rider, Jacques Anquetil, was very open about his doping to win 5 Tours. During the 1930 Tour de France founder and organizer Henri Desgrange required participants to pay for their own “stimulants and doping.” Tommy Simpson on the ascent of Mt. Ventoux during the 1967 Tour died from doping.
Glory? Money? Both? I don't know, but I wouldn't blame the fans.
RockyMtnMerlin
07-26-07, 11:19 PM
Smoothie is right, there have been dopers from the beginning of racing in the 19th century. France's greatest rider, Jacques Anquetil, was very open about his doping to win 5 Tours. During the 1930 Tour de France founder and organizer Henri Desgrange required participants to pay for their own “stimulants and doping.” Tommy Simpson on the ascent of Mt. Ventoux during the 1967 Tour died from doping.
Glory? Money? Both? I don't know, but I wouldn't blame the fans.
You are both right and sadly so.
Midnight Cyril
07-27-07, 01:50 AM
Derision of riders who do well but don't dominate plays a small role in doping culture. Same goes for making a blind virtue out of doing whatever it takes. But my suspicion is that they are much more strongly internal pressures than external. And I think the effect of both those attitudes pales in comparison to the corruption in the ranks of coaches and doctors as a cause of doping.
So my guess is that we fans are pretty much off the hook. Bet you're relieved. Now get out of here, you little scamp, and I don't want to catch anyone else feeling guilty again today.
roadwarrior
07-27-07, 03:01 AM
We are responsible at some level, yes. We are fans, we watch the race and buy the products. If everyone stopped watching (or attending) and buying the gear when the first doping was found years ago . . . they would have had to change their ways.
However, this is an unrealistic view. It does not happen. Mass boycotts and no-shows never happen in sports. The role of the fan is nearly unconditional love.
I am thinking that if people really wanted to do that, maybe staying away from movies and concerts would be a better way to go.
As was mentioned to me the other day, too bad they don't test people in the movies before they are allowed to make one...
Longfemur
07-27-07, 04:43 AM
Yes, the fans are responsible for it going on year after year, because they reward these guys by adulating them if they happen to be of their own nationality, despite all common sense to the contrary. It's not like you turn to Dr. Ferrari just for your little health problems, now, is it?
dahoss2002
07-27-07, 04:48 AM
No. The people responsible for doping are the one's doping. Period. The people to blame are the dopers. We need to stop making excuses for people and stop trying to find out who's "responsible" or who's to "blame". Vino is responsible for someone else's blood in his system. Period. Rasmussen is responsible for not taking the tests and lying about where he was. Period.
+1
Longfemur
07-27-07, 06:14 AM
Doping at that level is so sophisticated that it's not an individual thing. It takes a lot of involvement by a lot of people, and it's has to be organized with military precision first of all to do it, and then to conceal it. Of course, athletes are individually responsible, but the whole athletic and endorsement industry is responsible, as well as the fans who accept it by continuing to support it and by looking the other way for nationalistic reasons (both individual fans and the entire media industry do this). It's not about loving cycling or anything like that. It's about money, big money. And it's not just cycling, it's every spectator sport, every individual sport.
kuan
07-27-07, 06:24 AM
Huh, don't turn cheaters into victims for goodness sake. Fans support their teams and athletes because they appreciate the effort and it represents hope. Just look at Cubs fans or Minnesota Vikings fans. There is no other explanation. I wish I could influence people just by just watching. Maybe on some quantum level. :)
bac
07-27-07, 09:01 AM
I was a drug mule for Festina back in the 90's, but that's where I drew the line.
... Brad
OrionKhan
07-27-07, 09:11 AM
Doping at that level is so sophisticated that it's not an individual thing. It takes a lot of involvement by a lot of people, and it's has to be organized with military precision first of all to do it, and then to conceal it. Of course, athletes are individually responsible, but the whole athletic and endorsement industry is responsible, as well as the fans who accept it by continuing to support it and by looking the other way for nationalistic reasons (both individual fans and the entire media industry do this). It's not about loving cycling or anything like that. It's about money, big money. And it's not just cycling, it's every spectator sport, every individual sport.
Yes. And in the end it is the individual athelete who decides as to whether or not they are going to cheat. Its easy to fall back on the "the money is so tempting" card. Or the "pressure to perform" card. That's a bunch of crap. They are making the decision. They are making the choice. Its not a mistake. They are intentionally doing it. They are deliberately circumventing the rules to gain an advantage on their competitors. The only mistake that they are making is that they don't think they're going to get caught.
I again would say, "The people responsible for doping are the one's doping. Period. The people to blame are the dopers. We need to stop making excuses for people and stop trying to find out who's "responsible" or who's to "blame". Vino is responsible for someone else's blood in his system. Period. Rasmussen is responsible for not taking the tests and lying about where he was. Period."