I just saw burnyeel's coments on the Vs. coverage and it really bugged me.

He didnt say anything along the lines of "its good to see that a cheater is out," or "know we know a clean rider will have the yellow jersey." He just seemed to waffle around like he was scared to even have the words "cheating" or "doping" cross his lips. He clearly has no intent of being part of the new movement to crack down on doping from the team level.

Add to that Contador has failed to make any coment to the press at all these last few days (someone correct me if otherwise) and i get the impression he feels a bit guitly about something himself. He has also looked quite sullen, as if antisipaiting disappointment.

Any man with a clean conscience would in some form or another express satisfaction that a cheater has been prevented from taking his rightful prize.

Im gonna go out on a limb and say that disco is really worried Contador wont piss clean or that once he dawns the yellow all sorts of junk about puerto and the lance years will get dug back up. It almost as if they would rather not even win 'cus they know the scrutiny will be too intense.

Just one guys hunch.

This guy's hunch: You're reading waaaaaaay too much into this. Can we possibly get to the point where, just maybe, we can start thinking that the top three guys are clean?

I certainly have no problem with that concept. I wonder why so many other people do.

And no, optimism is not exactly a natural state with me - just ask my wife.

Disco has been making a lot of moves in the last year or so that most would say are not the moves of a team concerned about how clean their riders are.

The blue train has run a lot of dopers off of it's team in the past. I agree with some others on there that they just happen to be the most organized and have the best doctors. No clean rider will be on the podium this year....no matter how many they throw out.

Contrador is a doper. Levi is probably doping...and he sucks. He has the charisma of a dog turd on your shoe. The real heart of a "top ten"er. A born "also ran."

Oh well....at least I get to see bikes on TV. Feel sorry for the sponsors. Some of them really do care about cycling.

Contador speaks only Spanish.. Maybe camera shy? never know.. But I agree that Disco and Tinkoff have made the most questionable moves this past year...

Sure its just speculation, but no one in Disco has done or said anything to make one believe they are clean. (go ahead and tell me they passed dope tests:rolleyes:)

this guy has more than just the TT on his mind.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2007/tour07/index.php?id=/photos/2007/tour07/tour0717/CONTADOR_GIALLO_0608740

Contador declares he's clean:

If I wasn’t clean, then I wouldn’t be here. I’ve undergone all the required doping tests, both at the race and before it,” said Contador, who could become the first Spaniard since Miguel Indurain to win the Tour.
“Operation Puerto was something which concerned my former team, and I was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.”
http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topics/article.asp?cu_no=2&item_no=163353&version=1&template_id=49&parent_id=29
and
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/27/sports/sportsspecial1/27tour.html

Disco has been making a lot of moves in the last year or so that most would say are not the moves of a team concerned about how clean their riders are.

The blue train has run a lot of dopers off of it's team in the past. I agree with some others on there that they just happen to be the most organized and have the best doctors. No clean rider will be on the podium this year....no matter how many they throw out.

Contrador is a doper. Levi is probably doping...and he sucks. He has the charisma of a dog turd on your shoe. The real heart of a "top ten"er. A born "also ran."

Oh well....at least I get to see bikes on TV. Feel sorry for the sponsors. Some of them really do care about cycling.

I am not a Levi fan at all but he is sitting in third right now. Fourth a day ago. Not bad at all.

Any man with a clean conscience would in some form or another express satisfaction that a cheater has been prevented from taking his rightful prize.

Bruyneel doth protest... not enough?

I just saw burnyeel's coments on the Vs. coverage and it really bugged me.

He didnt say anything along the lines of "its good to see that a cheater is out," or "know we know a clean rider will have the yellow jersey." He just seemed to waffle around like he was scared to even have the words "cheating" or "doping" cross his lips. He clearly has no intent of being part of the new movement to crack down on doping from the team level.

Add to that Contador has failed to make any coment to the press at all these last few days (someone correct me if otherwise) and i get the impression he feels a bit guitly about something himself. He has also looked quite sullen, as if antisipaiting disappointment.

Any man with a clean conscience would in some form or another express satisfaction that a cheater has been prevented from taking his rightful prize.

Im gonna go out on a limb and say that disco is really worried Contador wont piss clean or that once he dawns the yellow all sorts of junk about puerto and the lance years will get dug back up. It almost as if they would rather not even win 'cus they know the scrutiny will be too intense.

Just one guys hunch.

Or maybe like in any sport, you do not shoot your mouth off. Let your performance do your talking.
Kenal0

Contador speaks only Spanish.. Maybe camera shy? never know.. But I agree that Disco and Tinkoff have made the most questionable moves this past year...

he speaks English, abliet poorly. Australian TV interviewed him the other night.

"Levi is probably doping...and he sucks. He has the charisma of a dog turd on your shoe. The real heart of a "top ten"er. A born "also ran."

This guy just finished second on the probably the hardest stage of the tour and sits now in 3rd place out of 180 riders that started the tour. We should all suck so bad.

I dunno - considering the circumstances, a subdued acceptance of the yellow jersey seems appropriate until the ITT - if he holds it, he'll be pretty happy to withstand the Cadel onslaught.

Disco has been making a lot of moves in the last year or so that most would say are not the moves of a team concerned about how clean their riders are.

The blue train has run a lot of dopers off of it's team in the past. I agree with some others on there that they just happen to be the most organized and have the best doctors. No clean rider will be on the podium this year....no matter how many they throw out.

Contrador is a doper. Levi is probably doping...and he sucks. He has the charisma of a dog turd on your shoe. The real heart of a "top ten"er. A born "also ran."

Oh well....at least I get to see bikes on TV. Feel sorry for the sponsors. Some of them really do care about cycling.

So either you dont watch the race, or you are just interested in the SAAB commercials. Call Levi what ya want, he is a winner and will be on the podium. Your comments were that of a dope.:rolleyes:

There's a lot of sanctimonious, loudmouth, family-values, republican politicians sodomizing boy pages and prostitutes

This guy just finished second on the probably the hardest stage of the tour and sits now in 3rd place out of 180 riders that started. We should all suck so bad.
+1

and they're down to 141 riders now, between the ones that didn't make the time limit, the ones that doped, the ones that were asked to leave because of the ones that doped, and you know who...

So either you dont watch the race, or you are just interested in the SAAB commercials. Call Levi what ya want, he is a winner and will be on the podium. Your comments were that of a dope.:rolleyes:

+1 - it is just too bad he doesn't have Chris Horner's personality...:o

"Levi is probably doping...and he sucks. He has the charisma of a dog turd on your shoe. The real heart of a "top ten"er. A born "also ran."

This guy just finished second on the probably the hardest stage of the tour and sits now in 3rd place out of 180 riders that started. We should all suck so bad.

Incorrect. 189 started. :D

There's a lot of sanctimonious, loudmouth, family-values, republican politicians sodomizing boy pages and prostitutes

Congratulations! You've just made the most inane comment I've read anywhere all week.

So either you dont watch the race, or you are just interested in the SAAB commercials. Call Levi what ya want, he is a winner and will be on the podium. Your comments were that of a dope.:rolleyes:

+1

Disco has been making a lot of moves in the last year or so that most would say are not the moves of a team concerned about how clean their riders are.

The blue train has run a lot of dopers off of it's team in the past. I agree with some others on there that they just happen to be the most organized and have the best doctors. No clean rider will be on the podium this year....no matter how many they throw out.

Contrador is a doper. Levi is probably doping...and he sucks. He has the charisma of a dog turd on your shoe. The real heart of a "top ten"er. A born "also ran."

Oh well....at least I get to see bikes on TV. Feel sorry for the sponsors. Some of them really do care about cycling.

Oh right. :rolleyes:

Why don't you go ride yourself into third place in the TDF.

I'll never understand why people rag on LL so much. It's no small accomplishment to (perhaps) finish on the podium in this race. Anyone who minimizes the accomplishment doesn't know jack.

Can we possibly get to the point where, just maybe, we can start thinking that the top three guys are clean?

Seriously, you haven't been here long enough. EVERYONE IS CHEATING (in spite of testing results). Get real! :rolleyes:

Disco has been making a lot of moves in the last year or so that most would say are not the moves of a team concerned about how clean their riders are.

The blue train has run a lot of dopers off of it's team in the past. I agree with some others on there that they just happen to be the most organized and have the best doctors. No clean rider will be on the podium this year....no matter how many they throw out.

Contrador is a doper. Levi is probably doping...and he sucks. He has the charisma of a dog turd on your shoe. The real heart of a "top ten"er. A born "also ran."

Oh well....at least I get to see bikes on TV. Feel sorry for the sponsors. Some of them really do care about cycling.

This gets the award for stupidest post of the tour... Why do all these beginner kids always open their mouths when they don't know dick about bike racing or cycling for that matter?

I don't know why people here even think they deserve to say that a Pro rider like LL or Ras suck... Those guys are pros and we are just the pawns that keep their R&D funded.... You guys really need to think about who you say sucks if you can't back it up.... I guess since we know we'll never be confronted for real it makes it easy to talk ****!!. I know for sure that I couldn't do a 32 mile tt at.... what was their average speed? Not even if i were doping...

No clean rider will be on the podium this year....no matter how many they throw out.


Cadel Evans will win "Clean", will shut-up all the press, and will shut up all the people here about not having a clean winner.

Seriously, you haven't been here long enough. EVERYONE IS CHEATING (in spite of testing results). Get real! :rolleyes:
The only guys who tested positive in the tour are Vino and the one Cofidis guy. Are you telling me everyone else is clean? What are you smoking? We can argue whether it's 98% or 99% of the peloton, but whatever the number, the fact remains: they are all doping and yet passing all the tests and controls. Hmmm.

This guy's hunch: You're reading waaaaaaay too much into this. +1 for sure. Conspiracy theorists live for weeks like this one. Good grief . . . :rolleyes:

Seriously, there's not a communist behind every rock.

Disco has been making a lot of moves in the last year or so that most would say are not the moves of a team concerned about how clean their riders are.If you're referring to the Basso debacle, there's an article in Road Bike Action a few months ago where they interviewed Armstrong and questioned him about the team signing Basso. His response? The sponsor wanted Basso very badly, and when the sponsor is dumping $10M on your lap, sometimes you have to do what they say. The whole insinuation of his response was that it was against his wishes, but the sponsor would have no other way.


Contrador is a doper. Proof, please? **yawn**


Levi is probably doping...again, proof? This is getting too weird...


and he sucks.He's sitting 3rd seat in a race that neither of us would stand a chance at ever making it through and you say . . . what? Okay, he sucks. And Michael Jordan couldn't dunk. Tiger Woods can't putt.


He has the charisma of a dog turd on your shoe.Your opinion of his personality reflects on his ability to bike . . . how?


The real heart of a "top ten"er. A born "also ran."Which explains why he took Tour of California and is sitting 3rd seat in the TdF. Makes sense.

Seriously dude, making cracks like you did (and still are?) only wreaks havok on your credibility. :rolleyes:

Seriously, you haven't been here long enough. EVERYONE IS CHEATING (in spite of testing results). Get real! :rolleyes:

I am real. And I don't believe EVERYBODY is cheating. What I do believe is that this bunch really loves the scandals, and will go out of their way to make sure they're ramped up.

If EVERYBODY is cheating, why are you wasting your time watching the Tour in the first place? Go watch professional wrestling, it's more colorful.

Bruyneel doth protest... not enough?

Ha! Yeah it's a no win situation. If he goes off on the 'cheaters' everyone will say he's got some nerve, we all know LA was doped to the gills. Now if he doesn't say anything he's hiding something. They are all hiding something, whether it be now or in the past. What is happening now is the painful expulsion of the dumb cheaters. The smart cheaters will continue to cheat and win. Honestly I still believe the only recourse is to have a one time amnesty for anyone involved. Let them come forward without any repercussions and tell all. After which if they test positive again then it's a life time ban.

Rasmussen never struck me as smart. Neither did Jan nor Vino nor Basso nor Heras .. and definitely not Landis. I am not shocked at all that they were caught. LA? Smart as a whip ..

*I can't believe I just typed that*

I am real. And I don't believe EVERYBODY is cheating. What I do believe is that this bunch really loves the scandals, and will go out of their way to make sure they're ramped up.

If EVERYBODY is cheating, why are you wasting your time watching the Tour in the first place? Go watch professional wrestling, it's more colorful.

I have to second that I believe EVERYBODY is cheating. If they weren't, they wouldn't have a spot, because someone just as good as them WOULD cheat, which would make them better.

It really doesn't matter at this point if everyone or no one is cheating. Just based on the messages in this forum, from avid cyclists, everyone not in the peloton thinks that everyone in the peloton is cheating and that is what matters the most. At this point there is no way for anyone to prove they are clean, it will be hard to see where the sport goes from here.

So kwrides and all of you who've fallen into the "everybody dopes" trap, do you believe Graeme Obree, Chris Boardman, Brad Wiggins, Paul Kimmage, Jay Sweet and Brad McGee ALL doped? (And I mean ALL, no weaseling out by choosing one you think did.)

Or where you trying to say that you believe many riders dope?

I think professional athletes will take every advantage they can get. I'm not limiting that comment to cycling. If they didn't someone else would, and would beat them.

I think professional athletes will take every advantage they can get. I'm not limiting that comment to cycling. If they didn't someone else would, and would beat them.

No weaseling. Is that a yes? You believe all of the riders I have listed above took/take illegal drugs to improve their cycling performances?

EDR makes a good point. It is a no win situation.

But Bruyneel's comments are consistent with the Omerta.

It would be more refreshing if he had a little righteous indignation.


I'm afraid though he's thinking " But for the grace of God..."

I can't say. I haven't been around that long. My intro to cycling was Indurain. I can say that I love to read the stories, and I want to believe, but it's hard.

When I look at the money and glory involved, I just say to myself that if 1 guy was ethical, he would be beaten by someone who wasn't, so you get group think and everyone does it.

This guy's hunch: You're reading waaaaaaay too much into this. Can we possibly get to the point where, just maybe, we can start thinking that the top three guys are clean?

I certainly have no problem with that concept. I wonder why so many other people do.


Vino pulls a great few stages.... gets caught.
Cofidis is on the back of the peloton protesting - they don't support doping.... Moreni gets caught
Rasmussen is climbing like there is no other.... gets dumped by Rabobank for lying about whereabouts, he misses 4 doping tests, has problem reporting where he is, etc.

All in three days. Why would you think that 'ah, now we have a top 3 who are clean?'.

Most people are just wondering who is next to get caught.

But Bruyneel's comments are consistent with the Omerta.

It would be more refreshing if he had a little righteous indignation.

Well said.

And the other comment I'm sick of hearing from riders when asked about doping.

"I don't know what to think"

I hear it time and again. No outrage, no anger, no feelings, just "I don't know what to say" or "I don't know what to think"

When someone you work with gets the axe for poor performance, mistakes, incompetance, etc., out of respect or whatever you want to call it, it is not appropriate to "speak ill of the dead." Could be JB is thinking along these lines. Bad enough to be tossed from the Tour, don't need to do a hatchet on the guy also.

Maybe, maybe not, but if I were in his position, I would think along these lines. Actually, where I work I have been in that position and we consider very unprofessional to tongue lash someone who is let go. You have your thoughts and opinions, but you keep it to yourself.

So kwrides and all of you who've fallen into the "everybody dopes" trap, do you believe Graeme Obree, Chris Boardman, Brad Wiggins, Paul Kimmage, Jay Sweet and Brad McGee ALL doped? (And I mean ALL, no weaseling out by choosing one you think did.)

Or where you trying to say that you believe many riders dope?
Yes, I believe all of them doped at some point. I don't know for certain, but that's what I believe.

There have been enough riders from the 1950s to the 1990s that have admitted to doping and have confirmed that from what they have seen, the vast majority of the professional riders doped in those years. After Operacion Puerto, Riis, Landis, Zabel and Vino I don't believe much has changed. Moreni and Sinkewitz show that it's not just the top guys either.

Just my 2 cents.

+1

and they're down to 141 riders now, between the ones that didn't make the time limit, the ones that doped, the ones that were asked to leave because of the ones that doped, and you know who...

Voledemort is riding the tour?

When someone you work with gets the axe for poor performance, mistakes, incompetance, etc., out of respect or whatever you want to call it, it is not appropriate to "speak ill of the dead." Could be JB is thinking along these lines. Bad enough to be tossed from the Tour, don't need to do a hatchet on the guy also.

Maybe, maybe not, but if I were in his position, I would think along these lines. Actually, where I work I have been in that position and we consider very unprofessional to tongue lash someone who is let go. You have your thoughts and opinions, but you keep it to yourself.
He may also have thought of Eric Boyer, manager of Cofidis, who used very strong words to condemn Vino. And then find one of his own riders is caught just days later.

When someone you work with gets the axe for poor performance, mistakes, incompetance, etc., out of respect or whatever you want to call it, it is not appropriate to "speak ill of the dead." Could be JB is thinking along these lines. Bad enough to be tossed from the Tour, don't need to do a hatchet on the guy also.

Maybe, maybe not, but if I were in his position, I would think along these lines. Actually, where I work I have been in that position and we consider very unprofessional to tongue lash someone who is let go. You have your thoughts and opinions, but you keep it to yourself.

And what of JB's failure to sign his team up to the riders' charter against doping? Or to speak out against doping in a more general sense? What of his decision to call T-Mobile's anti-doping stance a "publicity stunt"? What of his decision to sign Basso (and to a far lesser extent, if any, Sergio Paulinho)? Why was his nickname "The Hog" when he rode for ONCE? What was in those 24 pills Emma O'Reilly said she collected from Johan Bruyneel in May 1999 and delivered to Armstrong? Oh, and Bruyneel called Armstrong and told him he could win the Tour in what year? 1999? Wasn't that the year written on the bags of Lance's blood that allegedly had EPO in them?

Now he's team manager of a guy who had a blood clot that nearly killed him (not under Bruyneel).

Bruyneel should be a strong advocate of the toughest anti-doping stance, and yet he refuses to make his team doping tests public and tells his riders to ride on when the others pause to call for more stringent testing.


Oh, and kwrides and silver on your high horse, here's an Obree story for you. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/special_report/1998/07/98/tour_de_france/142008.stm Still think he doped?

Contador speaks only Spanish.. Maybe camera shy? never know.. But I agree that Disco and Tinkoff have made the most questionable moves this past year...

Astana anyone? :D

... Brad

And what of JB's failure to sign his team up to the riders' charter against doping? Or to speak out against doping in a more general sense? What of his decision to call T-Mobile's anti-doping stance a "publicity stunt"? What of his decision to sign Basso (and to a far lesser extent, if any, Sergio Paulinho)? Why was his nickname "The Hog" when he rode for ONCE? What was in those 24 pills Emma O'Reilly said she collected from Johan Bruyneel in May 1999 and delivered to Armstrong? Oh, and Bruyneel called Armstrong and told him he could win the Tour in what year? 1999? Wasn't that the year written on the bags of Lance's blood that allegedly had EPO in them?

Now he's team manager of a guy who had a blood clot that nearly killed him (not under Bruyneel).

Bruyneel should be a strong advocate of the toughest anti-doping stance, and yet he refuses to make his team doping tests public and tells his riders to ride on when the others pause to call for more stringent testing.


Oh, and kwrides and silver on your high horse, here's an Obree story for you. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/special_report/1998/07/98/tour_de_france/142008.stm Still think he doped?
Agree with practically everything you say in this post. The only thing you may want to elaborate on is why you think I'm on my high horse.

Regarding Obree. Good for him. I hope he reported the rider who offered him dope.

[QUOTE=Bruyneel should be a strong advocate of the toughest anti-doping stance, and yet he refuses to make his team doping tests public and tells his riders to ride on when the others pause to call for more stringent testing.[/QUOTE]

The video in this link listed as "Riders reaction to the start-line protest" tells us what most of them think about what happened. Cofidis organized the protest and one of their riders tested positive the same day, there was no point to the whole thing. Listen to what Horner and others say in the vid.

http://www.velonews.com/vntv/

Oh, and kwrides and silver on your high horse, here's an Obree story for you. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/special_report/1998/07/98/tour_de_france/142008.stm Still think he doped?


Not sure why I'm on a high horse...I didn't say, "everyone but me dopes"...

Let me take my point outside cycling...
I work in IT. We do periodic reviews of our staff and try to employ the best there is. If we have poor performers, we try to help train them to improve. If they can't be trained up, they eventually fall out of the system and are replaced by, hopefully, better performers.

Now, let's say their are only 100 IT jobs in the whole world, similar to how there are only so many riders allowed in the TdF. Now, let's say someone comes up with a drug that makes you better at your job. If 50 of the 100 employees decide to take the drug, then there are 50 who did not.

Demand is limited... supply is endless. Those who chose not to meet the requirements of the market find there is no demand for their skills.

My hypothesis is that 50 people outside the original 100 would take the drug, thus making them better than the original 50. Eventually, you would have replaced the 50 lesser performers with the 50 new high performers. Thus, the 50 who did not take the drug would no longer be able to work in IT.

Regarding Obree. Good for him. I hope he reported the rider who offered him dope.

And of course, you think he didn't because he was a doper. You seriously know nothing about cycling.

As for you Captain Kurt, how about addressing the other more worrying points i raise.

As for the protest Kurt - it was a shambles. Well intentioned but a shambles. There was a point - the teams that organised the protest were Agritubel, AG2r, Francaise des Jeux, Bouygues Telecom, Cofidis, Credit Agricole, Gerolsteiner and T-Mobile. They have formed a group called the Movement for a Credible Cycling and want all teams to abide by their good behaviour charter of 2005.

And of course, you think he didn't because he was a doper. You seriously know nothing about cycling.

As for you Captain Kurt, how about addressing the other more worrying points i raise.

They are worrying, no doubt.