When I get back home I am looking at putting a motor on my bikeE, a long wheelbase recumbent. What type of recumbent do you have and what motor arrangement?

Go to www.ecospeed.com and you'll be really really close to what I'm using.

Now watch LOL=@Lowell respond with his new figures.

Not everybody has the resources to build a geared system like you have. Hubmotors, while not the most efficient way to power an ebike, do successfully open the hobby of ebiking up to a much wider audience. This is a GOOD thing! It allows more people to experience the benefits of power assist. In time, these people will seek better, more efficient ways to do what they're currently doing. Who doesn't want to get more from their ride?

Preaching on a messageboard that everyone using a hubmotor is an idiot is counterproductive and just plain stupid. Grow up already. When people can buy a decent geared ebike at a decent price, I'm sure they will. I'm also sure it won't be you that makes it happen as you come across as someone who talks about the 'big game' that everyone else forgot about years ago.

Go to www.ecospeed.com (http://www.ecospeed.com) and you'll be really really close to what I'm using.Since the days when I was making 2 pound BLDC Motor/planetary Gear box drives inside a snug 2" diameter submersable housings used as solar powered boats outboars motors inside the 10" 15 hp gas propeller hub.The small 1.5 Kw motor with gears obviously didn't get even warm but it did loose some efficiency in the process and learnd then both for cost,range or power spectrum and efficiency it is better to go with the smallest size with the most power that is the most efficient with the least moving parts starting from high torque at a at low efficient rpm to get the least possible reduction ratio using a "single Chain reduction "to achieve the torque you need.It all can be done with auto $8. pre wound auto stators and off the shelf parts cheap! cheaper in volume.I But anyway LOL@lowell the bittom line is you get what you can and they will last untill they quit and still make smiles. Thats where its at! tin can motors make $ and I wonder why there is not a GREAT! product yet.? I think I have had the answer a long time. LOL=@Lowell (lLOL=@Lowell)

Not everybody has the resources to build a geared system like you have. Hubmotors, while not the most efficient way to power an ebike, do successfully open the hobby of ebiking up to a much wider audience. This is a GOOD thing! It allows more people to experience the benefits of power assist. In time, these people will seek better, more efficient ways to do what they're currently doing. Who doesn't want to get more from their ride?

Preaching on a messageboard that everyone using a hubmotor is an idiot is counterproductive and just plain stupid. Grow up already. When people can buy a decent geared ebike at a decent price, I'm sure they will. I'm also sure it won't be you that makes it happen as you come across as someone who talks about the 'big game' that everyone else forgot about years ago.

Hahahah, the big game was Randy's 3 hours and 3 minutes of fame back in 2003. It's pretty sad that he has to mention it repeatedly, and bump his own threads to the top. Stooping to name calling furthur shows lack of points to argue. Is that the best you can do Randy?

Not everyone's ebike needs are the same, and as Robert C. pointed out, Randy's volcano racer is not really that interesting in the real world, although it should get a technical merit badge. A great product will sell itself, and doesn't need a raving lunatic preaching on message boards to promote it. There is no better advertising than a satisfied customer telling all his friends, but unfortunately Randy's kit can't be bought so it's a moot point.

Hahahah, the big game was Randy's 3 hours and 3 minutes of fame back in 2003. It's pretty sad that he has to mention it repeatedly, and bump his own threads to the top. Stooping to name calling furthur shows lack of points to argue. Is that the best you can do Randy?

Not everyone's ebike needs are the same, and as Robert C. pointed out, Randy's volcano racer is not really that interesting in the real world, although it should get a technical merit badge. A great product will sell itself, and doesn't need a raving lunatic preaching on message boards to promote it. There is no better advertising than a satisfied customer telling all his friends, but unfortunately Randy's kit can't be bought so it's a moot point. Isn't it a point to make known that there better ways to power a electric bike more efficiently and lighter, less moving parts with less costs?

Yes crappy Hub motors have there place, but not in my garage.The question is: What has LoL=Lowell done for advancing off the shelf technology to make a lighter,longer range ebike that will make a difference in the future ebike products?

Things I brought to these boards before the ideas became popular.10 reasons for lol=Lowell to come unglued.
1. Brushless motors before curries kits came out people thought brushless BLDC motors were week and troublesome I proved that they could be made smaller and stronger and more efficient than burshed motors.
2. I introduced the ONLY 3 speed hub that was engioneered and built to handel 1600 watts of power for 1000s of abusive miles and hold up for a great price.Before I brought this up no one else even talked about using mulri gearing for the motor and pedals eliminating the derailers.
3.I brought up the use Whattmeters that I have used since 1990 made by astro flight.Since many started using them Drain Brain and a frew others were inspired to make such meters for ebikes.
4.Telling people about alternator stators that great ebike motors can be made froom cheaply.
5.Devising freewheel systems on Shimano freehubs for single redudtion motors to freewheel on the hub independently from the pedal drive and using either a 3 speed hub or a single speed hub in comon with or without derailer coggs and a derailer at either end.
5.Dual sided drives on the wheel using BMX hubs before Staton Inc built there own.
6.One of the first to use Evercels and 7. lithiums at 72 volts.
7.Made the longest up hill videos on a ebike.
8.Set the record for the the only electric vehicle to ever climb over 10,000 feet in a vetrical ascent from the beach.To date no one has atempted this.
9.Introduced quality efficient 219 chain and Quiet Kevlar and composite sprockets and adapters to ebikers.
10a.Found the right companies that make the best controllers available for all ebikes with Mil spec parts at a great cost.NOT in China.
10b.Made the only 5 lb motor NOT on the market that will fit between the crank pedals to mid drive a 26" wheel to the hub of a ebike with great efficiency in a SINGLE stage chain reduction without the use of a jack shaft or motor reduction gears.
10c. Designd the only 7 lb hub motor to not spin in the wheel, but to be to slide onto any Shimano freehub to power either a single speed or 3 speed intrenal geard hub.
10d.What otther ebike has a mid drive motor on the swingarm in front of the tire on a full suspension ebike?

If you want to change gearing or battery voltage you have options to kill your self if you like.
Put this 6 lb motor on a ebike using a 200amp 48 volts at 160 amps contionus Sevcon controller for 5.7 Kw.the amprage for 5 minutes would be 120 amps at using 10ah Kokam battery cells on a 20 lb roadbike and you will get over 60 mph at 6500 motor rpms.You can buy 10 ah lithium RC packs at your favorite RC store that would weigh a total of 10 lbs. good for 30C discharge rates.. Change the controller and 200 peak amps Why not? Its too dam fast on a bicycle.It would only weigh 35 lbs. total to go 5 miles in 5 minutes.The lithium rockets may be bursting in air at the 5 mile mark.Naaa that's only a 12 C discharge. 200 amps would be 20 C peaks in which RC airplane nuts use every day with there 30 C rated packs..
The winding on this motor is from a stock wound $8. auto alternator stator that 1000s can be taken away for free at many junk yards.This same set up could be used as a legal ebike going 20 mph for 30 miles WITHOUT needing to pedal if you didn't feel like it.Speed limiters and power limiters are desined into the programable controller.

Things I brought to these boards before the ideas became popular.
4.Telling people about alternator stators that great ebike motors can be made froom cheaply.


The winding on this motor is from a stock wound $8. auto alternator stator that 1000s can be taken away for free at many junk yards.

It would be very helpful if you would include a step-by-step for converting alternators into motors (photos would even be better). Where do you get the chain drive gears that fit on the alternator shaft?

I have been looking at these motor kits. It would be for use on my bikeE. all I really need is the motor, controller, tensioner. Because the bikeE already has a single chainring, the rest of the kit would be left unused.
http://cgi.ebay.com/500w-Motorised-Electric-Motor-Bike-Bicycle-Kit-e-bike_W0QQitemZ220138128260QQihZ012QQcategoryZ7297QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

It would be very helpful if you would include a step-by-step for converting alternators into motors (photos would even be better). Where do you get the chain drive gears that fit on the alternator shaft?

I have been looking at these motor kits. It would be for use on my bikeE. all I really need is the motor, controller, tensioner. Because the bikeE already has a single chainring, the rest of the kit would be left unused.
http://cgi.ebay.com/500w-Motorised-Electric-Motor-Bike-Bicycle-Kit-e-bike_W0QQitemZ220138128260QQihZ012QQcategoryZ7297QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem The right size motor and rotors and shafts need to be custom made.Turning down a 17 mm alternator shaft to 5/8" can be done by spinning the shaft on a lathe using a cutting tool or a grinder.I have no use for anything except 8mm timing chain and 8mm sprockets.They are redily available under 10 bucks for either the motor or wheel sprockets.Since this chain is ment for uses up to 20 hp at 12000 rpm adjustments are seldom and there is not any reason for a chain tensioner if you use a quality freehub or freewheel attached to the freehub.The main reason no one else uses this system are two parts.A good motor that will fit between the pedals and a freewheel modification to fit the freehub.
Nothing a manufactrue or machine shop can't do easily.
If there was a market for complete ebikes for the American market Honda would already be making them.

The right size motor and rotors and shafts need to be custom made.Turning down a 17 mm alternator shaft to 5/8" can be done by spinning the shaft on a lathe using a cutting tool or a grinder.I have no use for anything except 8mm timing chain and 8mm sprockets.They are redily available under 10 bucks for either the motor or wheel sprockets.Since this chain is ment for uses up to 20 hp at 12000 rpm adjustments are seldom and there is not any reason for a chain tensioner.

My point exactly! Only a small percentage of the population could even take on a project like this! That's why it stays in the garages of a few individuals.

Hubmotors are popular because they can be installed by virtually anybody. VHS vcr's were also technically inferior to BETA units, but they won out too because they were easier to manufacture and as a result, could be sold at a reasonable price.

Go to www.ebikes.ca and look at what a motivated individual like Justin Lemire has done to promote hubmotors. Say all you want about him Hawaii boy, but he's a success story in a variety of ways, and that's everything you've proven you're not over the years. In order for you to really impress anyone, you'll need to start up a successful operation like Justin has for your geared motor approach. The geared motor approach is technically superior, so this should give you an edge over Justin. Until you do something like this, your endless self promotion won't even raise your credibility above the noise floor.

My point exactly! Only a small percentage of the population could even take on a project like this! That's why it stays in the garages of a few individuals.

Hubmotors are popular because they can be installed by virtually anybody. VHS vcr's were also technically inferior to BETA units, but they won out too because they were easier to manufacture and as a result, could be sold at a reasonable price.

Go to www.ebikes.ca (http://www.ebikes.ca) and look at what a motivated individual like Justin Lemire has done to promote hubmotors. Say all you want about him Hawaii boy, but he's a success story in a variety of ways, and that's everything you've proven you're not over the years. In order for you to really impress anyone, you'll need to start up a successful operation like Justin has for your geared motor approach. The geared motor approach is technically superior, so this should give you an edge over Justin. Until you do something like this, your endless self promotion won't even raise your credibility above the noise floor. I have already proven to myself that gearred motors suck in efficiency oposed to single chain drives to the hub.For one they make too much noise and have too many parts to fail and add weight and cost that can be applied to a stronger motor in a small size.There is actually no reason for a geared internal hub if you have right chain reduction and a motor powerful enough to do the job.A chain on the inside for the motor and a derailer and freewheel cassette outside for pedaling.This set up is good for 30 mph speed with a single motor ratio that will climb any hills.You can increase the speed by voltage or put a 3 speed internal hub on it to increase the speed to what ever you want using a lower motor RPM.
Hub motors are great for people who don't expect too much performance out of there ebikes.Sure you can mod them at a worse efficiency by overvolting them and using them past there rated wattage..
Condeming a system that you can not make or understsnd makes hub motors ideal for you. and every one else.
Your right the noise floor is hub motors so be content with hoping for better. Some people move on when they can't find what they need and devlope it themselves with off the shelf parts or make them themselves.Some people like to look into alternitives for more efficient systems.As I can see you are not one of them.
All it takes is 1 ebike manufacture to make a change.
Since the low qialty hub motors are making chinees farmers rich overnight keep on giving them more than there products are worth ?
Because it is easy to do it is your only option. You might as well forget and dismiss anything better.
Yes I am wasting my time and yours.

It would be very helpful if you would include a step-by-step for converting alternators into motors (photos would even be better). Where do you get the chain drive gears that fit on the alternator shaft?

I have been looking at these motor kits. It would be for use on my bikeE. all I really need is the motor, controller, tensioner. Because the bikeE already has a single chainring, the rest of the kit would be left unused.
http://cgi.ebay.com/500w-Motorised-Electric-Motor-Bike-Bicycle-Kit-e-bike_W0QQitemZ220138128260QQihZ012QQcategoryZ7297QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem There is not a part in your kit that I can see worth using along with the millions of other ebike parts that are made today including all hub motors.Its a shame so many are promoting junk kits and ebikes.They are actually promoting a bad name for any ebike company.Because they all are not made to last vary long at all or go 20 miles every day without having to pedal..

It would be very helpful if you would include a step-by-step for converting alternators into motors (photos would even be better). Where do you get the chain drive gears that fit on the alternator shaft?

I have been looking at these motor kits. It would be for use on my bikeE. all I really need is the motor, controller, tensioner. Because the bikeE already has a single chainring, the rest of the kit would be left unused.
http://cgi.ebay.com/500w-Motorised-Electric-Motor-Bike-Bicycle-Kit-e-bike_W0QQitemZ220138128260QQihZ012QQcategoryZ7297QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

These style of kits usually run a freewheeling crank assembly so you would most likely require the cranks and the bottom bracket as it is slightly over width (again normally with this style of drive). The freewheel allows the motor to run the chain without having your pedals spinning at the same speed, or if you want to take a breather from pedalling.

EbikeHawaii seems very reluctant to give the required data photo's to build one, prehaps as others might actually test the performance/efficiency? or he still has hopes after all these years of selling the idea.

If one could buy an off the shelf alternator for $8 as described in a previous post and get better efficiency than anything available elsewhere, people would be all over it like a rash?

If one could buy an off the shelf alternator for $8 as described in a previous post and get better efficiency than anything available elsewhere, people would be all over it like a rash?

Wes, but I would need to know just what i need to do to the alternator after I buy it. So far, all I heard is "machine the shaft" I do have a lathe and this statement is entirely useless He gave a number to cut it down to, but what part of the shaft, and why? Then, does it need to be rewired? I have never tried to just send power to an alternator before, will it just spin up like a motor?

This project is still about a year away; but, I am interested.

Previous posts on other forums over the years he has stated that you needed to rewire the stator, and mod the housing, but now apparently that is not required?

Previous posts on other forums over the years he has stated that you needed to rewire the stator, and mod the housing, but now apparently that is not required? mixing up your own storys keeps going on and on ... so be it buy a hub motor lol

EbikeHawaii seems very reluctant to give the required data photo's to build one, prehaps as others might actually test the performance/efficiency? or he still has hopes after all these years of selling the idea.

If one could buy an off the shelf alternator for $8 as described in a previous post and get better efficiency than anything available elsewhere, people would be all over it like a rash?

For sure he's not selling the idea, as the info has been out there for years and nobody has bothered to market it. If there was any significant demand, the Chinese would be on it like white on rice, and companies like Crystalyte would be filling containers with 5lb pancake motors.

Until someone who is actually respected in the ebike community (hello Knoxie!) gives some unbiased test results, there's not much to go by except claims from a raving lunatic with a few screws loose.

My point exactly! Only a small percentage of the population could even take on a project like this! That's why it stays in the garages of a few individuals.

Hubmotors are popular because they can be installed by virtually anybody. VHS vcr's were also technically inferior to BETA units, but they won out too because they were easier to manufacture and as a result, could be sold at a reasonable price.

Go to www.ebikes.ca and look at what a motivated individual like Justin Lemire has done to promote hubmotors. Say all you want about him Hawaii boy, but he's a success story in a variety of ways, and that's everything you've proven you're not over the years. In order for you to really impress anyone, you'll need to start up a successful operation like Justin has for your geared motor approach. The geared motor approach is technically superior, so this should give you an edge over Justin. Until you do something like this, your endless self promotion won't even raise your credibility above the noise floor.

I was wondering when the VHS vs Beta comparison would come up. My cousin was a die hard Beta guy from the get go and would go on about the technical superiority of Beta over VHS. A shining example of how simplicity and availabilty rules.

Justin @ Ebikes.ca is an engineer, but he's also a business man. Everyone including him knows that gears are better on paper, but when it comes to running a successful business there are other factors that sell apart from technical superiority. For example Sony's PS3 kicks ass on Nintendo's Wii, just not in the sales department, and Nintendo did a great job on building what the market wanted, not what they thought people should buy.

Randy would actually have credibility if he could express himself as a sane and rational person, able to conduct a civil conversation with a group of people.

This is all quite interesting. We're hosting a CAD user group meeting with a "futertech" theme, focused on alternative energy and transportation. So we're building an ebike as one example of what could be done today to use less gas.

We speced out a bike with a two speed rear hub motor and 48 V SLA batteries. They'll be mounted to
a Giant MTB that we're having a community biking organization in Maine put it all together.

This is what we got. It was kind of hard to spec because we don't really know how we'll use it.

Crystalyte 408/4011 Brushless hub motor
Rear 26" Double Wall Rim with Shimano 7 compatible Freewheel
20Amp, 36V-72V Dual Speed Hub Motor Controller
Thumb Throttle
E-Brakes (they disconnect the motor when you apply the brakes
4 12V, 10AH SLA [Sealed Lead Acid] batteries
Battery meter / power meter
Cruise Control

We went conservative on the battery pack as it appears lithium Ion technology will provide big benefits in future. I've asked them to put a disk brake on the front, and mount very rugged tires.

We bought the kit from the www.poweridestore.com/ and it was just over $800 including shipping to MA. They are testing all the components before shipping and we'll start assembly next week.

This is all quite interesting. We're hosting a CAD user group meeting with a "futertech" theme, focused on alternative energy and transportation. So we're building an ebike as one example of what could be done today to use less gas.

We speced out a bike with a two speed rear hub motor and 48 V SLA batteries. They'll be mounted to
a Giant MTB that we're having a community biking organization in Maine put it all together.

This is what we got. It was kind of hard to spec because we don't really know how we'll use it.

Crystalyte 408/4011 Brushless hub motor
Rear 26" Double Wall Rim with Shimano 7 compatible Freewheel
20Amp, 36V-72V Dual Speed Hub Motor Controller
Thumb Throttle
E-Brakes (they disconnect the motor when you apply the brakes
4 12V, 10AH SLA [Sealed Lead Acid] batteries
Battery meter / power meter
Cruise Control

We went conservative on the battery pack as it appears lithium Ion technology will provide big benefits in future. I've asked them to put a disk brake on the front, and mount very rugged tires.

We bought the kit from the www.poweridestore.com/ and it was just over $800 including shipping to MA. They are testing all the components before shipping and we'll start assembly next week.

Awesome to hear about some scientific testing being done in the eBike community! Being so close to A123 Systems it shouldn't be long before you get some lithium chemistry happening and what a joy that will be.

Start a new thread - please keep us updated about your project and tests.

Good choices so far and I like the poweride folks too.

good luck

There is not a part in your kit that I can see worth using along with the millions of other ebike parts that are made today including all hub motors.Its a shame so many are promoting junk kits and ebikes.They are actually promoting a bad name for any ebike company.Because they all are not made to last vary long at all or go 20 miles every day without having to pedal..


Is this your idea of being helpful Hawaii boy? No wonder your system has never left your garage.

Lowell will lead the group now talking about how to fix your hub motors. carry on....

This group doesn't need leading, it just needs a free exchange of information.

Why are you so reluctant to post exact build details of your motor? Afraid of the truth? Did Ken Trough leave a bad taste in your mouth?

Here is a photo of the insides of the "prodution version" called Planet Ryder. The first public demo was a disaster the motor went up in smoke and I have never actually seen one for sale.
As you can see the stator isn't exactly off the shelf. I could have been wrong about the windings but can't really be bothered trying to go back far enough to confirm as the EbikeHawaii aka Randy has been banging on about this design for a looooong time.

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x62/MilesHellon/PICT0019comp.jpg

Published spec.

Motor

Ke = 17 V/kRPM

Kt = 0.17 Nm/A

Resistance 0.25 Ohms

Inductance (approx.) 200 uH

12 Poles


Controller

Nominal input voltage 16-48V (max. 55V)

Continuous output current 20A

Peak output current 35A

Output power (max.) 1 kW



Measured no-load of motor

0.8 A @ 38V

Data linked from Endless-shere, one of the numerous forums Randy's managed to get banned from.

Some estimated calculation for the "Planet Rider" motor:

Max rpm at 48V = 1000 48/17 = 2820 rpm
Motor Torque at 20A = 0.17 X20 = 3.4 NM

Frequency of 3-phase supply at 2800rpm = 2820/60 X12/2 = 282 Hz
26" wheel rotates 322 rpm at 40 km/h
Hence the reduction gear ratio = 2820 /322 = 8.75 : 1
Wheel Torque at 20A = 3.4 X8.75 = 29.8 NM

Comments:
1) This motor seems to be of good design and have high torque.
2) With a gear ratio of 8-10 for 26", it will be a very good motor for 26" wheel.
3) Theorectically a direct-drive motor (at 322 rpm) will be about 8 times the size.
4) The attached geared hub motor has similar winding/poles arrangement with a gear ratio of 4.

We looked into the available options for most of the last year. I signed on for the Yahoo newsgroup power-assist (http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/power-assist/), found the forums at Endless-Sphere (http://endless-sphere.com/forums/index.php?sid=60e05b08d6ed82b979ff6d04c2cf0a85)

As we looked into it, there are all kinds of good motors available and a number of ways to hook them up, from front and rear hub (brushed and brushless, geared and direct drive) motors to the Stoke Monkey to a number of other unique approaches. They all work well for particular uses. Industry use of electic motors is immense and that technology is highly developed.

So choice of motor or drive system is not the rub. The rub is batteries.

Sealed Lead Acid batteries are reliable, reasonably priced, widely available, and heavy. Lead is, well, heavy as lead: a mid-sized automotive battery weighs around 45 lbs! The NiMH (Nickel Metal Hydride) batteries are lighter but much more costly and have other problems. Lithium Ion seems to have a lot of potential because of their high energy density, no memory effect, and no real internal discharge. Lithium Polymer batteries are also getting closer to market. But they aren't practical now. And wait till all those smug "environmentalists" who bought a Prius have to replace their batteries and dispose of the old ones and that won't seem like such a great choice.

Going from SLA to NiMH batteries would have doubled the cost of the kit. But this will change. If batteries become more practical, more plug-in options become available (many Northern cities have plug-ins on parking meters for block heaters in cold weather, so it's possible), and perhaps gasoline continues to increase in cost, ebikes may well replace small scooters and mopeds as the most popular short haul and urban personal transportation. Right now, it's tough to beat a 50cc gas engine in the marketplace even though they're stinky and noisy.

Somethings wrong with that motor too.All the ones I produced draw 40 watts freespinning on 60 volts at 56 RPM per volt which is slightly slower.
No-load 3360 rpm at 60V => No-load 2688 rpm at 48V (5% slower than Planet Ryder)

Both motors have all the same parts except the two I had made myself minus the sloply glued on un needed fan.The torque constant on that motor is lower as well because my ex partners decided to use the weaker magnets.And it IS a FORD stator.
A FORD stator is used with self-made magnet rotor.

.My two year old motors i never used yet have 14 poles with a different stator and even larger magnets in the same dia rotor. It will be for a 125 frame size dirtbike and weighs 6 pounds.With a sprocket ratio of 7 to 1 it has aprox 125 ft lb of torque of torque at 50 amps 72 volts at 3400 rpm loaded up a bit.

At 72V
No-load rpm = 56X72= 4032 rpm.

"loaded up a bit" rpm = 3400 rpm (at 84% of no-load rpm)
14 poles at 3400 rpm => 397 Hz
Drive wheel rpm = 3400/7 = 485 rpm
125 ft lb => 169 Nm ( very high torgue at drive wheel)
Output Power at drive-wheel = 2X3.14X (485/60) X 169 = 8580 W
Input power = 72X50 = 3600 W

There must be something wrong in the data/calculation because the Output power is 238% of Input power.
Please help!??

Seems that this motor is still in R and D stage. Any further developement/results?
I have great interest to see this motor. Any photos ?

Industry use of electic motors is immense and that technology is highly developed.

So choice of motor or drive system is not the rub. The rub is batteries.


However unlike industrial use, "weight" is one of the most important factor in ebikes.
Weight/size of motor is also an important factor next to the weight/capacity of battery.

Seems that this motor of EbikeHawaii is still in R and D stage. Any further developement/results?
I have great interest to see this motor. Any photos ?

Wonder if EbikeHawaii could give us any further R & D and the motor's photos.

Wonder if EbikeHawaii could give us any further R & D and the motor's photos. I could but I am not wasting any more time on showing movies and pictures of things that I have accomplished.It is obviously not appreciated.Many people on these forums like to mix up the facts I contribute by there own FALSE interpetations. Let them tell you there facts that they think they know so well.

I could but I am not wasting any more time on showing movies and pictures of things that I have accomplished.It is obviously not appreciated.Many people on these forums like to mix up the facts I contribute by there own FALSE interpetations. Let them tell you there facts that they think they know so well.

This looks like one of Hawaii boy's favorite turning points. When he starts talking like this, it isn't long before he starts becoming belligerent and then ultimately gets banned.

Caaattttccccchhhhh the waaaaavvvvvveeeeeee. :D

That's all Maui needs is an even bigger source of hot air than Hawaii boy. :p

Stay safe Randy you nut!!!!

That's all Maui needs is an even bigger source of hot air than Hawaii boy. :p

Stay safe Randy you nut!!!!

This forum becomes more and more entertaining.

Put up a wind generator and you can charge your batteries.

Lowell will lead the group now talking about how to fix your hub motors. carry on....

Does this mean we won't hear anymore of your garbage?

You may have a superior bike, but you people skills suck so much nobody in their right mind would even bother with you.

I hope you come to realize this because your bike might well become the next Betamax if you keep treating people the way you're doing now.

We just got the kit in. Here's the hubmotor and wheel.
The hubmotor and wheel weigh just under 17 lbs.
The 4 SLA batteries weigh 29 lbs.
The other components together weigh 3 lbs.
So it will add a total of 49 lbs to the bike.

In order to get to your dream machine, not only do you have to define what you can get in reality but also start from the ground up. I'd suggest to get what you buy what is right for you as of today and find ways to improve. This is what human race is all about. :)

In order to get to your dream machine, not only do you have to define what you can get in reality but also start from the ground up. I'd suggest to get what you buy what is right for you as of today and find ways to improve. This is what human race is all about. :) The only thing that needs improving in the ebike market is slecting stronger and lighter motors and batteries that ARE NOW used in other industries. My main question to peolpe here is: why hasn't any ebike mauufacture come up to the plate ? with anything ouher than JUNK! low tech throw away motots ect.
The rotor is made from precision machined steel bar and has twelve high-temperature (180°C) neodymium-iron-boron (NdFeB) magnets mounted on its circumference. The magnets are retained with stainless steel bands and the rotor is balanced prior to assembly.
Following our commitment to high quality, high performance materials and components, Nachi bearings are used throughout our product line. 30mm double-row angular contact bearings are standard.
The rear cover is comprised of glass-filled, high temperature thermoplastic, which is precision machined. A magnetically coupled coolant pump may be added, when necessary.
http://www.ecycle.com/

We just got the kit in. Here's the hubmotor and wheel.
The hubmotor and wheel weigh just under 17 lbs.
The 4 SLA batteries weigh 29 lbs.
The other components together weigh 3 lbs.
So it will add a total of 49 lbs to the bike.

How much did your original wheel/rim weigh? 5lbs.?

How much did your original wheel/rim weigh? 5lbs.?The hub motor replaces a hub that weighs less than 1 pound.

[quote=Garandman;5047546]We looked into the available options for most of the last year. I signed on for the Yahoo newsgroup power-assist (http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/power-assist/), found the forums at Endless-Sphere (http://endless-sphere.com/forums/index.php?sid=60e05b08d6ed82b979ff6d04c2cf0a85)

As we looked into it, there are all kinds of good motors available and a number of ways to hook them up, from front and rear hub (brushed and brushless, geared and direct drive) motors to the Stoke Monkey to a number of other unique approaches. They all work well for particular uses. Industry use of electic motors is immense and that technology is highly developed.

So choice of motor or drive system is not the rub. The rub is batteries.

[quote] So WHO in the ebike industry uses available, EFFICIENT, SMALL, LIGHTWEIGHT 1000 watt motors that will do best with available Kokam lithium polymer batteries that are both used NOW in many industries ? If the rub was lightweight powerful batteries then where are the most efficient motors on Ebikes to save on battery costs with ANY batteries? Could it be that the existing ebike market has over priced it's heavy unefficient JUNK that would also be a waste of power from expensive batteries? Going back to the topic of this thread: Why is Ebike Technology Years Behinnd ? You may ask why Chineese Hub motor Controller technology is so far behind and why there $20. controllers cost over $200. these days and still heat up wasting valuable watts.
A american made 3"x3" 1000 watt box with all mil spec parts can be made for $50. each. Again! there is NOT a steady VOLUME!
http://www.lynxmotiontechnology.com/introtosema1.htm
http://kokamamerica.com/kokam_catalog.pdf

EbikeHawaii (http://www.bikeforums.net/member.php?u=90245), I totally agreed with you on why the industries do not utilize the new technology. However, it is understandable that no one could afford spending millions on electric bike and there is no research data showing a profitable investment on it due to multiple states laws + registration & insurance issues. Also, it is freezing cold to drive in an ebike at above 20MPH in the morning and at night in San Francisco. My thermometer was showing 4 degree in Celsius. Therefore, we have to live with what Chinese manufacturers could produce and improve from there. :)

EbikeHawaii (http://www.bikeforums.net/member.php?u=90245), I totally agreed with you on why the industries do not utilize the new technology. However, it is understandable that no one could afford spending millions on electric bike and there is no research data showing a profitable investment on it due to multiple states laws + registration & insurance issues. Also, it is freezing cold to drive in an ebike at above 20MPH in the morning and at night in San Francisco. My thermometer was showing 4 degree in Celsius. Therefore, we have to live with what Chinese manufacturers could produce and improve from there. :)

yes you can have many choices all that gives ebikes little future compared to electric cars.Mabe a forum topic of: How to improve the efficiency ,WEIGHT and quality of a Chineese hub motor would best apply if you think improvment can be done on existing products.I take it that not to many people care about future designs that are possiable for a cheaper price if there was a market for LIGHTER WEIGHT 1 to 2 hp electric bikes that the power and speed could be eaisily be programed into the controller for any legal limits with much better efficiencys and range..
If I was a Chineese Hub motor manufacture or dealer each making over $100 a pop I would not change either.And what makes any hub motors Legal in all places ?

After over 15 years of making these motors someone finaly wrote a book. LOL
http://www.alternatorconversions.com/

So, I herd U liek Mudkips!!!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=MKzqP4-0Z6M

So, I herd U liek Mudkips!!!
Have you ever heard of better performance ?

A Car Alternator Can Be Made Into A Powerful Hybrid Brushless Motor In A Couple Hours With Common Tools.
Use for electric vehicles, robotics, industrial, alternative energy, experimental electric aircraft, and automotive applications.
http://www.alternatorconversions.com/

The fact is, the technology is out there, but there seems to be an inconsistency in product levels. One such innovation is increasing the radius of the hub motor, increasing the speed between the magnets and windings which allows for a much lighter motor. BionX kits weigh very little, if not anything more than a frame motor, once you account for the fact that instead of having to add pieces as with a frame motor, you actually negate the weight of your old wheel. Heinzmann kits are lighter than anything Crystalyte offers by quite a bit, and considerably more powerful. They're built with an extreme level of precision and quality, nothing cut rate about them.

The thing is, when you go out and buy a kit, regardless of if its frame or not, it seems that the trend is this:
1. unreliable lowest end products: you get what you paid for. paid for crap? guess what?!
2. basic workhorses. reliable but simple: Crystalyte, Cyclone, all that jazz.
3. astronomically priced connoisseurs products.

Where's the "higher end" line?
It doesn't exist from what I can tell. How about a line for frame motors with good housing, direct hubs with radial improvements, or a cheaper internally geared system?

What'd be nice is to see a Crystalyte style motor with the radial weight savings of the BionX, but keeping in line with the non-proprietary, no frills Crystalyte stance. Skip the cute little controller, the proprietary pieces and just make the one radial improvement. So far as I know, the P2 is already filling in that sort of gap on the geared motor side, its Heinzmann design without the desire to be a rolling work of art. Simple, but better.

It'd be great to see a line of frame motors with included proper protection from the elements and a design thats intended to be utterly simplistic, the worst being that you have to lubricate and clean it.

It'd also be great to see a company working on ebike accessories: Nicer throttles, universal frame mount battery cases or a tough frame bag that locks shut, holds your batteries securely, and has ports on it for the charger and wiring. This isn't stuff thats just for the rich, its just stuff thats considered useful and non-frivolous, something any e-bike user could benefit from, regardless of their drivetrain choice.

You speak of numbers like you're trying to build a cyclocross e-bike, when most people want a reliable product that'll carry them and their junk around the city. When I hear how you talk about the extra 7-8lbs from the hub system like its something only an idiot would accept, but then look at your junk bicycle frames, components, and gutted practicality, it doesn't make much sense to me. I'd take a bike with a Crystalyte and Deore/X7 level parts over a frame motor + huffy any day: that'd be a bike you could count on to ride.

As for reliability, at this point its my personal opinion that you know absolutely nothing about it, because any decent hub motor provides a very high level of reliability. You should go tell Heinzmann customers that their motors are timebombs, they'll laugh in your face.

Practical E-bikes are born with fenders and a rack, and in all practicality, a few additional pounds matters very little. Unless you're completely incapable of using a normal bicycle within normal conditions, the thought that 15lbs is a deal breaker is simply entertaining. I'll have to tell my cycling group that we can't do banff next year because the weight limit on hill climbs is apparently now just about 20lbs. Hm.. And to think we've been doing it with all those pounds of gear, all this time. What matters more to the average person is that their bike is going to roll out the door day after day, no squeaky noises, no breakdowns, no worries. You think 7lbs is going to ruin the experience? Hm, not quite like promoting a bike without pedals is.

The fact is, the technology is out there, but there seems to be an inconsistency in product levels. One such innovation is increasing the radius of the hub motor, increasing the speed between the magnets and windings which allows for a much lighter motor. BionX kits weigh very little, if not anything more than a frame motor, once you account for the fact that instead of having to add pieces as with a frame motor, you actually negate the weight of your old wheel. Heinzmann kits are lighter than anything Crystalyte offers by quite a bit, and considerably more powerful. They're built with an extreme level of precision and quality, nothing cut rate about them.

The thing is, when you go out and buy a kit, regardless of if its frame or not, it seems that the trend is this:
1. unreliable lowest end products: you get what you paid for. paid for crap? guess what?!
2. basic workhorses. reliable but simple: Crystalyte, Cyclone, all that jazz.
3. astronomically priced connoisseurs products.

Where's the "higher end" line?
It doesn't exist from what I can tell. How about a line for frame motors with good housing, direct hubs with radial improvements, or a cheaper internally geared system?

What'd be nice is to see a Crystalyte style motor with the radial weight savings of the BionX, but keeping in line with the non-proprietary, no frills Crystalyte stance. Skip the cute little controller, the proprietary pieces and just make the one radial improvement. So far as I know, the P2 is already filling in that sort of gap on the geared motor side, its Heinzmann design without the desire to be a rolling work of art. Simple, but better.

It'd be great to see a line of frame motors with included proper protection from the elements and a design thats intended to be utterly simplistic, the worst being that you have to lubricate and clean it.

It'd also be great to see a company working on ebike accessories: Nicer throttles, universal frame mount battery cases or a tough frame bag that locks shut, holds your batteries securely, and has ports on it for the charger and wiring. This isn't stuff thats just for the rich, its just stuff thats considered useful and non-frivolous, something any e-bike user could benefit from, regardless of their drivetrain choice.

You speak of numbers like you're trying to build a cyclocross e-bike, when most people want a reliable product that'll carry them and their junk around the city. When I hear how you talk about the extra 7-8lbs from the hub system like its something only an idiot would accept, but then look at your junk bicycle frames, components, and gutted practicality, it doesn't make much sense to me. I'd take a bike with a Crystalyte and Deore/X7 level parts over a frame motor + huffy any day: that'd be a bike you could count on to ride.

As for reliability, at this point its my personal opinion that you know absolutely nothing about it, because any decent hub motor provides a very high level of reliability. You should go tell Heinzmann customers that their motors are timebombs, they'll laugh in your face.

Practical E-bikes are born with fenders and a rack, and in all practicality, a few additional pounds matters very little. Unless you're completely incapable of using a normal bicycle within normal conditions, the thought that 15lbs is a deal breaker is simply entertaining. I'll have to tell my cycling group that we can't do banff next year because the weight limit on hill climbs is apparently now just about 20lbs. Hm.. And to think we've been doing it with all those pounds of gear, all this time. What matters more to the average person is that their bike is going to roll out the door day after day, no squeaky noises, no breakdowns, no worries. You think 7lbs is going to ruin the experience? Hm, not quite like promoting a bike without pedals is. Compared to the electric auto industry ebike motors and electronic drives are still many YEARS BEHIND!

Considering the amount of practical, current world improvement that the e-bike has made in the last 20 years, its done alright. Mind you, the biggest sole improvement is undoubtedly simply the access to better battery chemistries, which isn't an improvement on the EV itself, rather a related technological field.

I'm wondering what you're hoping to see? What kind of technological advance can you think of for these products? Many advances have already been made, but simply aren't trickling down to the other plateau's.

A great deal of improvement is a result of competition. Something of which there isn't seemingly much of in the e-bike world. Shimano and SRAM for example are always trying to outdo each other, make their product lighter, stronger, more reliable.

Not many of these e-bike developers have rival products, most of them simply occupy a particular niche and take that market. Without a *need* to innovate, the only reason to do so from a market perspective is to refresh the product line for your previous clients.

I'm with u guys on this one, what the ebike industry needs is
a) some standardisation, with charts, data and information released as soon as the product is.
b) have properly designed products
c) start focusing on quality products designed for bikes of a specific nature or sizes of bikes.

with regards to b and c - that is where the biggest issue is in my opinion. There is too many non standard parts - and by that i mean parts not designed to fit correctly into a bike with 135mm dropouts. I would also like to see a "downhill" version of hte x5 designed to fit into downhill bike dropouts - which are different, one side is screwed in the other is clamped in. this and the addition of motors to fit would greatly help the adoption of the ebike DIY market. Also using latest common components (ie a shimano 8 speed or 9 speed hub (i konw itst a tight fit) on the motor, and making the motor narrower but larger in diameter would help too.

I hate to say it but i think we might need to get some other countries designing the motors and stuff, but having the existing manufacturers making them - to bring the benefit of correct design and low cost.

I have to say i'm impressed with crystalite's LATEST controllers (especially the ones Justin had them make with 4110 fets), their 35a controllers come with 3140 fets which are also very good (i'm running one of these) the motors still have a ways to go, but the developments of the puma based motors is going along at a nice rate, esp with the latest styles that their doing - with metal internal gears (its a hub motor)

I'm with u guys on this one, what the ebike industry needs is
a) some standardisation, with charts, data and information released as soon as the product is.
b) have properly designed products
c) start focusing on quality products designed for bikes of a specific nature or sizes of bikes.

with regards to b and c - that is where the biggest issue is in my opinion. There is too many non standard parts - and by that i mean parts not designed to fit correctly into a bike with 135mm dropouts. I would also like to see a "downhill" version of hte x5 designed to fit into downhill bike dropouts - which are different, one side is screwed in the other is clamped in. this and the addition of motors to fit would greatly help the adoption of the ebike DIY market. Also using latest common components (ie a shimano 8 speed or 9 speed hub (i konw itst a tight fit) on the motor, and making the motor narrower but larger in diameter would help too.

I hate to say it but i think we might need to get some other countries designing the motors and stuff, but having the existing manufacturers making them - to bring the benefit of correct design and low cost.

I have to say i'm impressed with crystalite's LATEST controllers (especially the ones Justin had them make with 4110 fets), their 35a controllers come with 3140 fets which are also very good (i'm running one of these) the motors still have a ways to go, but the developments of the puma based motors is going along at a nice rate, esp with the latest styles that their doing - with metal internal gears (its a hub motor)The only thing that needs to be done is to make high efficient motors with adjustable TORQUE with programable controllers that only need to weigh 5 lbs with the efficiency range to be within 100 watts to 1500 watts for ANY Ebike use without requiring ANY gearing..The examples I have made do achive this.For Fuel cells or any kind of battery power EFFICIENCY with TORQUE at any speed nothing would be better for ANY application under electric bikes.Mounting on ebikes made for the application needs frames that are made to fit the motors and batteries or fuel cells is all.Remember that for every % of added overall motor / drive train efficency your battery costs will come down. Yes hub motors are easier to install on most bikes but where is the overall efficiency and light weight ?

Have you ever heard of better performance ?

Yes.

Empirical tests have demonstrated beyond any doubt that store bought kits do a better job more efficiently then the system you have devised, and this has been repeatedly pointed out to you. You have also challenged anyone to beat you up your mountain claiming your system was the best, yet when Lowell took up your challenge you bravely chickened out.

It is irrational for a person in your position to be asking this question.

You intentionaly ignore reality.

Your perception of Ebike technology is years behind.

Yes.

Empirical tests have demonstrated beyond any doubt that store bought kits do a better job more efficiently then the system you have devised, and this has been repeatedly pointed out to you. You have also challenged anyone to beat you up your mountain claiming your system was the best, yet when Lowell took up your challenge you bravely chickened out.

It is irrational for a person in your position to be asking this question.

You intentionaly ignore reality.

Your perception of Ebike technology is years behind.But it is YOU and Lo Well who ignore The Reality of sometiing that works much more efficiently and fail to beat any records or standards that I have set many years ago. If Lo Well can't achieve climbing a mountain on his own don't call me the chicken.I already set the electric vehicle worlds record elevation climb that hasn't been beaten by anyone in 4 years. Lo Well has chickened out on his own, The challange will always be open to anyone who can beat the existing hill climbing record up to 10,005 feet in elevation on one set of batteries charged once for the trip..Your so called Empirical tests have demonstrated NOTHING in real life.Your dreaming hard does not make your pointed out tests a real fact.