Why is Ebike Technology Years Behinnd ?

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EbikeHawaii

If you want the best don't look at any cheap ebike products that are sold in todays ebike market.

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derath

How about editing your post so that it makes sense?

-D

diff_lock2

Cause it doesn't sound like this (http://videos.streetfire.net/video/a3f8f748-dc0d-431c-8ff5-f3bf7e6f305e.htm).

Lowell_

Or this:

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/8ab09067-c2f4-4e2d-aef5-98b00055ca8d.htm

Bushman

the real question (and i'm being serious here) is why are E bikes SO HORRENDOUSLY UGLY?

example of a nice clean lines, beautiful bike:

http://www.antbikemike.com/images/Bikes/Iver/iverbig.jpg

VERSUS the trainwreck grotesque godawful ugly E Bike:

http://www.global-b2b-network.com/direct/dbimage/50108015/E_Bike.jpg

:(

AllenG

They don't have to be.
http://www.spinopsys.com/wp-content/photos/Schwinn_electric.jpg

http://cyclowatt.com/upload/wwwVAE/www_vues_generales_VAE/velo_assistance_electrique_VAE_Giant_TwistComfortGts.jpg

Bushman

^ the first one there is pretty nice actually, cant say the same about the second.....

Lowell_

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/5406/journey2002xc7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

A nice clean ebike. Battery pack with carry handle means easy charging at work/school/wherever.

There are plenty of ugly pedal only bikes, as well as ugly ebikes.

AllenG

^ the first one there is pretty nice actually, cant say the same about the second.....

I don't know, put an XtraCycle on that bottom one and you might just have something.

Lowell_

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/6915/maytagsgtfullleft168nc1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Kick ass homebuilt. No extra chains, sprockets or motors hanging off. Total weight of 54.6lbs, and the BMC geared hub motor will climb any slope you'd want to ride on.

Jaleel Johanson

Will travel faster and far further than any hubmotor powered ebike with the same Wh capacity onboard. (sorry Lowell, but it's simply true)

http://ecospeed.net/photos/ezride1.jpg

Jaleel Johanson

example of a nice clean lines, beautiful bike:

Isn't that what the people buried underneath used to ride? LOL

JeanCoutu

the real question (and i'm being serious here) is why are E bikes SO HORRENDOUSLY UGLY?

example of a nice clean lines, beautiful bike:

http://www.antbikemike.com/images/Bikes/Iver/iverbig.jpg

Utter garbage. Send it to me & I'll dispose of it properly for you, I'll even pay shipping.

Replace the front brake with something like a small geard hubmotor w/no freewheel and regen braking, slap some lithium in a backpack, perhaps even route the cables through theframe and you end up with something pretty similar but with a boost to it.

Maybe something like this: http://www.users.bigpond.com/solarbbq/P2-B.htm

geebee

Will travel faster and far further than any hubmotor powered ebike with the same Wh capacity onboard. (sorry Lowell, but it's simply true)

I agree except that with my previous bb drive because I could keep adding boost at any speed so I continued to do so, 250 watt motor only but speed when a combination of your self and a low powered assist is fun.
A hub motor (low powered) will only assist to a certain point after that you are on your own, so assuming a passably fit cyclist the hub may only run 50% of the time if that, but with the bb or mid drive you can achieve usefull boost all the time and if you can't resist that boost you use more power but go faster so you may actually use more power.
Now stick a bb 0r mid drive in the trike in my avatar and you will be talking a great jump in effiency due to reduced drag. and you won't see the motor or batteries either.:D

What we need is cheap safe lithium or firefly batteries now, weight/range is the true sticking point on ebikes I feel, and that weight reduction range increase needs to occur without affecting current price point of an ebike greatly.IMO

Lowell_

Will travel faster and far further than any hubmotor powered ebike with the same Wh capacity onboard. (sorry Lowell, but it's simply true)

http://ecospeed.net/photos/ezride1.jpg

No argument there. My bike with fairing installed is pretty close to a bent, but a bent w/ fairing is pretty slippery. I've taken the fairing off my bike, and am concentrating on 0-40mph instead. The goal is to be under 6 seconds to 40mph, and 3.5 seconds 0-100ft.

karma

Or this:

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/8ab09067-c2f4-4e2d-aef5-98b00055ca8d.htm

nice sound. now for one that sounds not so good :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRvHV7pUmAc&mode=related&search=

EbikeHawaii

No argument there. My bike with fairing installed is pretty close to a bent, but a bent w/ fairing is pretty slippery. I've taken the fairing off my bike, and am concentrating on 0-40mph instead. The goal is to be under 6 seconds to 40mph, and 3.5 seconds 0-100ft. LOL Lowells motor on a bent will still loose!

Lowell_

LOL Lowells motor on a bent will still loose!

Lose to what? 0-40mph in 7 seconds is not bad for NiMH power. What's your 0-40mph time again?http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-3333980691936508324&hl=en-CA

EbikeHawaii

Lose to what? 0-40mph in 7 seconds is not bad for NiMH power. What's your 0-40mph time again?http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-3333980691936508324&hl=en-CA
Take it to the drag strip, for a good laugh.It's not hard to go fast.
Try some distance without pedaling on your heavy ebike.

JeanCoutu

Lowell owns an ebike now?

EbikeHawaii

Lowell owns an ebike now? I thought it was a pit bike : ) Back to the subject: Curri was supused to have baughtt Davinci hubs compant a year ago.Let's see if a market pans out better than Srams DD hubs.

http://www.fallbrooktech.com/05_PressReleases_currie.asp

krushnoi

I wouldn't want to bet on Currie to be the leader out front in the
ebike world, look at the crappy 250 watt brushed cheapo motors they advertised as 450 watts, and used them on the Mongoose line
of e bikes, the motors are worth about $35 wholesale. If they do use a geared hub it will probably be some Chinese ripoff that lasts about a week.

karma

heh i must have one of the good ones. my geared currie motor has been working for months at 49 volts
no problems.

i just added extra batterys to my friends izip and it works great to. these cheap motors got kick :)

just repack the gearbox with good bearing grease and its good to go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJqVRO5zUkA

MI7D1

I might be willing to take you up on the offer. You might be faster and you might go further but once your batteries go flat you'd be history :) I need to re-gear the velomobile because on the flats my cadence is 110 and I'm only doing 27mph. I can't spin any faster. When I re-gear I hope to drop my maximum cadence to 98-100 and bring the speed to over 30mph. BTW I'm street legal here in Oregon, no motor assist beyond 20mph

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/193/518687670_a80dcdaff6.jpg

Seriously now. I would have preferred a motor inline and through the gears rather than a hubmotor. I think it is more efficient and far lighter. However what was more important to me was stealth. You don't see or hear my hubmotor. The motor controller is way up front in the dark of the nose. All wires are out of immediate sight. One would have to look hard to tell that it was power assisted. Usually the people can't see the power assist for the velomobile. :D

Will travel faster and far further than any hubmotor powered ebike with the same Wh capacity onboard. (sorry Lowell, but it's simply true)

http://ecospeed.net/photos/ezride1.jpg

AllenG

I thought it was a pit bike : ) Back to the subject: Curri was supused to have baughtt Davinci hubs compant a year ago.Let's see if a market pans out better than Srams DD hubs.

http://www.fallbrooktech.com/05_PressReleases_currie.asp

I'm running a NuVinci hub on my Giant. It's been a damn nice hub, and has had no problems with the excess weight I make that thing haul. The only other hub I've ridden that compares to it in feel and ruggedness is my Rohloff. When I build myself up another e-bike I'll be using another NuNinci.

EbikeHawaii

I'm running a NuVinci hub on my Giant. It's been a damn nice hub, and has had no problems with the excess weight I make that thing haul. The only other hub I've ridden that compares to it in feel and ruggedness is my Rohloff. When I build myself up another e-bike I'll be using another NuNinci. Staton is using the NuVinci in the same way that I use my Sram Dual Drive 3 speed hub with independent freewheeling motor/pedal drives. The main differences is Staton has to use a gearbox for it's 1.6 hp gas motor with the motor freewheel on the gearbox. I direct drive my 5 lb electric motor to the freewheel in the hub sprocket next to the freewheel for the pedal chain and my motor is mounted on the swing arm in front of the tire between the pedals behind the pedal chain ring.On any bike A motor can also be mounted on a Staton motor mount rack.The Sram DD hub also has the same gear range but in two positive shifts.Riding in 2nd gear most of the time the Sram hub is locked out at 100% efficiency.To make my motor stelth It can be painted the color of the bike and quite composite sprockets are used with no gearbox.I was thinking of trying a NuVinci, but the Sram DD already does a exlent job with over 24,000 miles on it at a better price.If you have a 1 hp motor to use the match your pedaling power you you will not need any more than 3 speeds for pedaling or motor power to match cadence at any speed to 30 mph.The Sram is also much lighter.
http://www.staton-inc.com/Results1.asp?Category=30

Lowell_

Take it to the drag strip, for a good laugh.It's not hard to go fast.
Try some distance without pedaling on your heavy ebike.

I have more interesting vehicles to go to the drag strip with. The ebike is mostly for riding to work, and more recently, riding off road. It easily covers the distances I need to go without resorting to watt-misering and I'm not ready to shell out thousands of dollars to cut 25-30lbs off the bike, so for now the NiMH batteries are staying.

Lowell_

Lowell owns an ebike now?

Yes I do. What do you own?

JeanCoutu

Ah, see I know you own an electric motorcycle, didn't know you had an ebike. Got pics?

Lowell_

Ah, see I know you own an electric motorcycle, didn't know you had an ebike. Got pics?

http://www.motoredbikes.com/phpBB2/userpix/2519_IMGP7384_1.jpg

And because JeanCoutu seems confused with his terminology, here's a link to some electric motorcycles:
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/

EbikeHawaii

http://www.motoredbikes.com/phpBB2/userpix/2519_IMGP7384_1.jpg

And because JeanCoutu seems confused with his terminology, here's a link to some electric motorcycles:
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/ Your right! thats a heavy ebike held together with duct tape.

Lowell_

Your right! thats a heavy ebike held together with duct tape.

The black tape is just for color. It's actually held together with 3M 893 filament tape. 300lbs/inch tensile strength. Amazing stuff.

EbikeHawaii

The black tape is just for color. It's actually held together with 3M 893 filament tape. 300lbs/inch tensile strength. Amazing stuff.
when the batteries get hot I bet the adheasive smells great too.

Lowell_

when the batteries get hot I bet the adheasive smells great too.

The only thing I notice is tire smoke and peak battery temps on a hot day are around 140F.

Perhaps you're thinking of one of your 5lb smokey alternators burning up. What ever happened to Ken's bike anyways?

EbikeHawaii

The only thing I notice is tire smoke and peak battery temps on a hot day are around 140F.

Perhaps you're thinking of one of your 5lb smokey alternators burning up. What ever happened to Ken's bike anyways? He is sleeping with it in his jail cell.And how do you burn up a 160 amp alternator stator that you put 26 amps (MAX) through ? Ken at 300 lbs and a 1/4 lb brain can do wonders. Try running your motor up a mountain with a phase wire disconnected.

The7

EbikeHawaii
What ebike do you have now? Still the same.

Jaleel Johanson

when the batteries get hot I bet the adheasive smells great too.

I've seen some rather old pictures of your builds Hawaii boy... You're in NO position to laugh at anyone else's builds.

Robert C

mastershake916

Cause it doesn't sound like this (http://videos.streetfire.net/video/a3f8f748-dc0d-431c-8ff5-f3bf7e6f305e.htm).

Vtec just kicked in.

Lowell_

I've seen some rather old pictures of your builds Hawaii boy... You're in NO position to laugh at anyone else's builds.

Hahahah, isn't that the truth. http://www.solarnavigator.net/electric_cycles.htm

"HUFFY: A STYLISH RIGID FRAME BIKE"

Stylish must mean a motor hanging off the side with file boxes housing batteries. No pedals either.

"MONGOOSE: ELECTRIC FULL SUSPENSION MOUNTAIN BIKE"

Complete with a dresser drawer behind the saddle. This bike is an insult to duct tape.

And I finally found some real efficiency numbers which Randy was so reluctant to quote here. "24.5mph using 24 watt hours per mile". Nothing to write home about. A hub motor can do that all day long. At speed, aerodynamics make more difference than anything else for power consumption.

Jaleel Johanson

I use a mid drive setup on a lwb bent where the motor drives through all of the standard bicycle gears. I rode 72 rather leisurely, effortless miles a couple of weeks ago in hilly territory with an average speed of 15.5mph and a total power consumption of 235Wh. That boils down to less than 4Wh per mile. Yes, I pedaled all the way, but I didn't pedal HARD at ANY point. That's the tip of the iceberg of what a decent assist bike can be set up to do. I'm only using nimh batteries to boot.

EbikeHawaii

Hahahah, isn't that the truth. http://www.solarnavigator.net/electric_cycles.htm

"HUFFY: A STYLISH RIGID FRAME BIKE"

Stylish must mean a motor hanging off the side with file boxes housing batteries. No pedals either.

"MONGOOSE: ELECTRIC FULL SUSPENSION MOUNTAIN BIKE"

Complete with a dresser drawer behind the saddle. This bike is an insult to duct tape.

And I finally found some real efficiency numbers which Randy was so reluctant to quote here. "24.5mph using 24 watt hours per mile". Nothing to write home about. A hub motor can do that all day long. At speed, aerodynamics make more difference than anything else for power consumption. Yes it is kinda a laugh that a heavy 45 pound. steel frame full suspension X-Games Huffy bike that cost $80. could carry 100 lbs of NON Lithium batteries and a 160 lb rider up a a 10,005 foot Volcano with a 5 lb motor made in a garage.The 72 mile round trip up the to the top of the volcano and back to the beach averaged 24 watt hours per mile above a average speed of 20 mph for the complete trip. This trip was done in the worst type of conditions with heavy batteries. The same bike with 7 lbs of batteries that can be put anywhere will go 25 miles on any round trip WITHOUT Pedaling.Add pedaling and you can go 100 miles.Put this system on a 20 lb aluminum frame the complete ebike would weigh 32 pounds and would get a better performance with a siingle chain rediction ratio WITHOUT a multi speed hub.So far no one has caught up to the all around performance of my heavy Huffy when it used to weigh 150 lbs.So keep on Huffen an puffen. :-)
File cabnets ? You must be off youe rocker. Strap your self in with your duct tape. LOL= Lowell
A single speed motor can have a chain drive on EITHER SIDE of the wheel using either a multi speed hub OR a standard Shimino freehub using a cassette freewheel cluster or not on either types of hubs or what ever side of the wheel you choose to drive the wheel with the motor.All set ups alow for complete freewheeling of the motor.Rear Disc brakes can be used on either types of hubs with the Dual Drive chain on the one side.So far only the Jackel is the only company who copied my system usung the shimano type hub attachment but not with pedals.The Jackel runs 15 KW through it and does not use the more quiet, efficient composite or Kevlar sprockets either.So what has LOL developed besides a HEAVY duct tape bike that can't climb a grade for as long as it takes some people to climb hills on there commute? If fast is LOLs thing take it to the drag strip where efficiency does not matter much in short flat land trips.When Lithiums are IN! The heavy unefficient HEAVY hub motors will be tossed away in favor of saving over 10% in battery costs and gaining performance and efficiency in a much lighter, stronger, and more powerful ebike that can be eaisly adjusted for any persons weight,speed or riding styles on a single motor and system. Not to mention the savings in making and shipping complete ebikes in volume.

Lowell_

EbikeHawaii

Sounds about right for the speed. 130W to go 15.5mph, and 62W input power to assist. Pedaling 80W is pretty relaxed. I predict 9Wh/mile at 20mph, and 15Wh/mile at 25mph. How close am I? You still suck because you are working off of my figures and trying to 1 up me again LOL

Lowell_

You still suck because you are working off of my figures and trying to 1 up me again LOL

Was that comment for me, or for Jaleel Johanson?. Those numbers are for his recumbent ebike.

The fact remains that 24Wh/mile at 24.5mph is nothing special. Stick to the facts and the truth will present itself.

Lowell_

This is why ebike technology is "years behinnd"
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/9810/huffyelectriccyclewithfou4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

EbikeHawaii

This is why ebike technology is "years behinnd"
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/9810/huffyelectriccyclewithfou4.jpg (http://imageshack.us) Yea and this platform with 6 sla batteries will still make it up any hill or go 47 mph without any pedals at a GREAT efficiency with any rider.It was my version of a Ego type kit that could be put on any bike.Notice that the protected mid mount motor was eaisly addapted to the $80. Huffy full suspension X-Games bike.It is strong steel and has taken many 1000s of miles of off road abuse and is still chooglen without any parts replaced other than a couple sets of brake pads and a rear wheel.I also used four 40 lb Hawker batteries on the pedaless bike and climbed a 30* grade on several 50 mile trips averaging 20 mph.Weight tests were importatnt to determine the efficiency and the limits of a motor.So far the motor has not yet reached it's full potental.

EbikeHawaii

Was that comment for me, or for Jaleel Johanson?. Those numbers are for his recumbent ebike.

The fact remains that 24Wh/mile at 24.5mph is nothing special. Stick to the facts and the truth will present itself. It is on a 72 mile round trip up a volcano and back with 100 lbs of non llithium batteries in the worst conditions averaging over 20 mph.
Try it some day and cook your pancake breakfast on your hub motor after less than 10 miles up. Acording to YOUR figures how many ah at what voltage would it take you with your hub motor to make the summit at 10,005 ft. in 36 miles?

Robert C

EbikeHawaii

EbikeHawaii,
I am looking at that picture, of what I expect is your bicycle. It does not look like an efficient arrangement for pedaling. Is it really ridable in "conventional" mode?

How fast and far do you think you could ride in that manner compared to a similar bike w/o the assist parts? (I am not anti-ebike, I just think that you are approaching a design where the primary source of motivation is the motor rather than the rider; which, I realize, is what some people want, while some just want electric assist)This ebike does have 3 speeds that both the padals and the motor independintly run through via freewheel sprockets in the 3 speed hub.On the trip up the volcano with 100 lnb of batteries I could pedal lightly sittind down only with 12" of batteries between my knees.Whit 20 lbs of hiden lithiums it would do the same trip and work like a regular bicycle pedaling hard as you like.Putting the same system on a lightweight 20 lb aluminum frame bike the total weight with 7 lbs of batteries and a 5 lb motor will get you 30 miles at 20 mph WITHOUT pedaling on the 32 lb ebike.With the motor and batteries on it you may be able to keep up with any ANY bicycle its weight by only pedaling.Most bicycles would weigh more! you coulld easily go 60 miles using 4.8 watt hours 0f battery power per mile at the same force of 4.8 watt hours pedaling to achive a speed of 20 mph with 50/50 assist.A total pedaling force of 288 watts and a total of battery power expended would 288 watts from a 12 ha 36 volt pack weighing 7 lbs. using 80% of the batteries 12 ah capacity for 300 + cycles.it takes about 100 watts of any power to go 10 mph on a mountain bike so devide it up how you see fit.Or spend it all in one hour going 25 mph on motor alone if you don't feel like pedaling that day.It's not rocket science but on these ebike forums many people seem to think so.Some tend to think hub motors will make the grade as soon as lithiums apear reasonably priced but think again. I only made a efficient ,strong, lightweight system that only needs a extra 7 lb battery to up grade to FAST! while you can change a $8. composite sprocket for your weight or riding style.At a price of the hub motor ebikes are sold at today.All it will take is 1 million to make the first 1000 ebikes to be sold for $1000. each without adviisertising or marketing costs or shipping.10 dealers to order 100 ebikes is what it would take.But there is not a market for a fast turn over is the problem.

Now watch LOL=@Lowell respond with his new figures.

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