Green vs. KOM

[VT Biker]

Phil or Paul mentioned in the Stage today that the second most important jersey is the Green jersey.

I was kind of shocked at this, since it seems to me that the KOM jersey is the jersey behind the GC jersey that demands the most of its riders. I mean, the Green jersey essentially comes down to the last 1 mile on each of the 11 flat stages. Yet, the KOM jersey is a demanding test that can crack riders in dramatic fashion.

The Green Jersey may be older, but to me, I look at the KOM rider with more respect due to the effort it takes to win it.

With all of the Spring Classics being built for sprinters, and since points are awarded to 9th, 10th place and beyond for Sprinters in the Tour, it would seem to me that the Green Jersey, while a great accomplishment, is not the same as Paris-Roboix (excuse spelling) or the World's.

Also - I wish they would only award finish points to the top 3 riders. This would require that Hunter, Boonen and Zabel actually have to chase down those lead groups, rather than riding slowly through these flat stages which are supposed to be built for them in the first place.

[USAZorro]

Phil or Paul mentioned in the Stage today that the second most important jersey is the Green jersey.

I was kind of shocked at this, since it seems to me that the KOM jersey is the jersey behind the GC jersey that demands the most of its riders. I mean, the Green jersey essentially comes down to the last 1 mile on each of the 11 flat stages. Yet, the KOM jersey is a demanding test that can crack riders in dramatic fashion.

The Green Jersey may be older, but to me, I look at the KOM rider with more respect due to the effort it takes to win it.

With all of the Spring Classics being built for sprinters, and since points are awarded to 9th, 10th place and beyond for Sprinters in the Tour, it would seem to me that the Green Jersey, while a great accomplishment, is not the same as Paris-Roboix (excuse spelling) or the World's.

Also - I wish they would only award finish points to the top 3 riders. This would require that Hunter, Boonen and Zabel actually have to chase down those lead groups, rather than riding slowly through these flat stages which are supposed to be built for them in the first place.

I tend to agree with you about the pure physical demands, but on the other hand, sprinters have a way of not surviving the mountain stages. In order to win the Green jersey, you have to contest more finishes than the climbers, you have to ride all the way through to the end of the race (rather than just to the last climb), plus, you have to be able to survive the mountain stages without getting eliminated.

Now let's consider that last statement a bit more closely. The team of the rider in 1st place would have absolutely no incentive to work to pull back a break of 3 or more people in the later stages of the tour (which is when the breaks tend to succeed anyways). Then, if a break of 3 or more finishes ahead of the peloton, there's no sprint finish. The way it is set up now, the fans can get to see two finishes on one stage that have some relevance and which are contested.

[ettsn]

The guys who compete for the classics and whatnot can compete for the green. There's several countries champions going for it, and even a world champion in Boonen. These guys couldn't compete for the yellow, as their style doesn't suit it, but that's still a damn fine prize.

[classic1]

The Green Jersey is the winner of the Tour de France - on points. Thats why its more prestigious.
Its also much more difficult to win that the KOM. One good day in the mountains can essentially win you the KOM. Thats what Rasmussen did for both his KOM. Same with Virenque and Jalabert. One long range attack to pick up the bulk of the points, then defend by picking up points when necessary.

In the green jersey comp, one missed day of points can cost you a green jersey. Ask McEwen or Boonen or Hushovd. Points jersey contenders have to be attentive every day, not just in the final, as the bonus sprints along the road count for the classification. The points jersey has generallly been a much more competitive competition than the KOM for a number of years and more nerve racking for the contenders with the jersey not being decided until the riders reach Paris.

And why would you say the spring classics are all built for sprinters? Other than maybe Milan-sanremo and Gent-wevelgem they aren't.

[OrionKhan]

Plus, it seems like the KOM is usually very high in GC. Whereas, the Green guys are always down on GC after the big mountain stages. A bad day in the mountains for a Green contender could eliminate him on time. So its like a completely different race.

[VT Biker]

The guys who compete for the classics and whatnot can compete for the green. There's several countries champions going for it, and even a world champion in Boonen. These guys couldn't compete for the yellow, as their style doesn't suit it, but that's still a damn fine prize.

I agree that they can compete for both the Classics, Worlds, and Green. I was just stating however that because you actually have to WIN the race in the Classics and Worlds it hold more prestige. At least Hunter and Boonen have stage wins. If Zabel was somehow able to grab it without winning a stage, it would feel artificial.

[VT Biker]

The Green Jersey is the winner of the Tour de France - on points. Thats why its more prestigious.
Its also much more difficult to win that the KOM. One good day in the mountains can essentially win you the KOM. Thats what Rasmussen did for both his KOM. Same with Virenque and Jalabert. One long range attack to pick up the bulk of the points, then defend by picking up points when necessary.

In the green jersey comp, one missed day of points can cost you a green jersey. Ask McEwen or Boonen or Hushovd. Points jersey contenders have to be attentive every day, not just in the final, as the bonus sprints along the road count for the classification. The points jersey has generallly been a much more competitive competition than the KOM for a number of years and more nerve racking for the contenders with the jersey not being decided until the riders reach Paris.

And why would you say the spring classics are all built for sprinters? Other than maybe Milan-sanremo and Gent-wevelgem they aren't.


But on most of these flat stages, unless you crash, all the sprinters essentially line up around the 2 mile mark, and head into town to compete. I mean, it is great that it offers two finishes (great point by another poster), but I look at Soler's acheivement as so much more than Boonen's.

[Lithuania]

But Soler didnt have a dozen other guys fighting for his jersey. he was essentially let go to do as he pleased. The sprinters have to fight for thier points everytime.

[classic1]

But on most of these flat stages, unless you crash, all the sprinters essentially line up around the 2 mile mark, and head into town to compete. I mean, it is great that it offers two finishes (great point by another poster), but I look at Soler's acheivement as so much more than Boonen's.


It doesn't work like that. The last 40km of a stage they are racing at 50km/h +. Much of the field can't hold a place in the top 10 at those speeds. They don't have the nerve or ability, especially in the last 10km.

Soler has only had to really race competitively on 3 or 4 days to win his jersey

[dmotoguy]

I agree that they can compete for both the Classics, Worlds, and Green. I was just stating however that because you actually have to WIN the race in the Classics and Worlds it hold more prestige. At least Hunter and Boonen have stage wins. If Zabel was somehow able to grab it without winning a stage, it would feel artificial.

Hardly artificial, Zabel is ALWAYS right there in the sprints.. he should have a reward for his consistancy at the front of the pack.

But on most of these flat stages, unless you crash, all the sprinters essentially line up around the 2 mile mark, and head into town to compete. I mean, it is great that it offers two finishes (great point by another poster), but I look at Soler's acheivement as so much more than Boonen's.
Solers accomplishments are great, but he has little competition. Even if the sprinters teams are really only going strong for the last 10-20 minutes of the race there is so much action in that time, the fact that there arent 10 times more crashes on the sprint stages astonishes me. Watching the top sprinters going at 100%, even if its only for 200-400 meters, is pretty amazing.

But Soler didnt have a dozen other guys fighting for his jersey. he was essentially let go to do as he pleased. The sprinters have to fight for thier points everytime.
That point is key, there arent many climbers that dont have other team dutys and are able to contest those climbs every day. many riders could win the polka-dots if they were allowed to.

[classic1]

But on most of these flat stages, unless you crash, all the sprinters essentially line up around the 2 mile mark, and head into town to compete. I mean, it is great that it offers two finishes (great point by another poster), but I look at Soler's acheivement as so much more than Boonen's.

Seeing as reports are coming through that Soler is positive, you may want to change your view on that.:(

[OrionKhan]

Seeing as reports are coming through that Soler is positive, you may want to change your view on that.:(

Where are you picking that info up? Gotta link?

[classic1]

No. Posters on other sites are linking through to Danish and German reports (which I nein sprechen) that the Barloworld hotel has been raided and that Soler is positive. It's not confirmed and part speculation from what I can gather but the money seems to be that the reports are correct.

[dmotoguy]

Where are you picking that info up? Gotta link?

yea.. I'm not seeing it anywhere yet... that would be ****ty.:mad:

[OrionKhan]

No. Posters on other sites are linking through to Danish and German reports (which I nein sprechen) that the Barloworld hotel has been raided and that Soler is positive. It's not confirmed and part speculation from what I can gather but the money seems to be that the reports are correct.

Yeah, well I'm not doubting you or yours sources at this point. The way things are going, that's pretty much an indication that we should be looking for the next polka dot wearer. That would be a blow for Barloworld. They were the darlings of the Tour this year.

[bac]

Where are you picking that info up? Gotta link?

I'd like to see that also.

... Brad

[MDcatV]

All the jerseys and folks who can even compete at the pro level are impressive, but as someone who races, albeit at a low amateur level, I actually think Green jersey is most impressive. Day after day, these guys get themselves through a pack, sprint against the fastest in the world, and get results on a continuous basis. They've also to make sure they're well positioned for all the intermediate sprints along the road, so it isnt as though they "just race the last 400M". Requires team work at high speeds, bike handling, positioning, timing, power, endurance, speed, and being fearless in those crazy field sprints. Then, they've got to haul their carcasses over the mountains within a time limit. It isnt that easy.

The GC is won by the guy who can TT and climb the best - very selective and very impressive, but they dont have to actually "race" most of the stages, at least not same way the Green jersey competitors do; KOM - again, very selective and impressive, but the winner typically is a little guy who takes off on a solo break that isnt chased and gobbles up a bunch of points to establish the lead then rides in polka dots into Paris.

[VT Biker]

Seeing as reports are coming through that Soler is positive, you may want to change your view on that.:(

Christ - you have got to be kidding me.

If this is a rumor, I am pretty sure it will come true. It seems they all come true. This may be the Stage 14 rider we were hearing about.

[Keith99]

I agree that they can compete for both the Classics, Worlds, and Green. I was just stating however that because you actually have to WIN the race in the Classics and Worlds it hold more prestige. At least Hunter and Boonen have stage wins. If Zabel was somehow able to grab it without winning a stage, it would feel artificial.

So Lemond has an Artificial Yellow?

[bac]

So Lemond has an Artificial Yellow?

Did that happen when he was playing "hide the weenie"? (sorry, I couldn't resist) :o

... Brad

[OrionKhan]

I'd like to see that also.

... Brad

Looks like it breaking in this post...http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=326137

[USAZorro]

Yeah, well I'm not doubting you or yours sources at this point. The way things are going, that's pretty much an indication that we should be looking for the next polka dot wearer. That would be a blow for Barloworld. They were the darlings of the Tour this year.

I hope that's an erroneous report, but that seems unlikely. That would be Popovych, wearing Contador's KOM jersey. That would ruin it for Robbie Hunter too. :( :(

[Keith99]

The Green Jersey may be older, but to me, I look at the KOM rider with more respect due to the effort it takes to win it.



Where in the world did you get the idea the Green is older. Polka Dot is older by decades.

In some ways things are important because they are important. By that I mean the best riders go for the most important prize which results in that prize being won by better riders. An Extreme example is the intermediate sprints jersey(s). That one died in theTDF and is barely noticed in the Giro. Why isn't the team championship the most important? After all that is for a whole team. It is not some recent invention, so why not? Answer is because it isn't. If it was teams would try for it, but as things stand now often the best teams 'spend' their ability chasing Yellow.

As to Green vrs Mountian. Any rider ranking system I have seen puts them at equal value. So they are close. Ask a Spaniard and climbing is more important, ask a Belgian and it is Green.

I think there a few things that hurt the Mountians Jersey. If someone is a great climber then they have a shot at Yellow and pass on the Polka Dot. When (if ever) was there a great sprinter who passed on Green to try for Yellow? Also contenders for the Green often have impressive classics results, less often true for Polka Dot. Oh and it does not help the Polka Dot that it is often a done deal, only needing the leader to finish the Tour with 5 stages left to go while the Green is still in dispute rolling into Paris.

BTW Sprinters generally do not have to worry about the intermediate sprint points, nor do serious KOM contenders worry about cat 3 and 4 climbs. This may be one of the years where there is some competition for intermediate sprints on the late stages, but this is the exception that happens only when things are close at the end.

Also some one mentioned that the Green was the TDF champion based on points. I agree in a way. At least it sort of has that kind of feeling. However it is designed poorly if that was the goal as it gives far more on hte flat stages that are a cr@pshoot than it does on mountian stages (and it gives even less on Time Trials). It truely is designed to be the Sprinters Jersey.

[Lithuania]

excellent post keith

[OrionKhan]

I hope that's an erroneous report, but that seems unlikely. That would be Popovych, wearing Contador's KOM jersey. That would ruin it for Robbie Hunter too. :( :(

I haven't even read the report. The way things have been going, I'll just wait for the fallout and see who's wearing what jersey after tomorrow's stage.:(

[godspiral]

Another reason the green is more presitigious, is that the polka dots has been won, and almost always has highly placed riders who are not among the best climbers.... by stealing all of the minor points. Its also not competitive enough.

I think a good idea for the KOM would be to give points to the top 25 on hard stages, with bonuses on the last 2 hills. Not just doubling the last hill's points.

[Keith99]

Another reason the green is more presitigious, is that the polka dots has been won, and almost always has highly placed riders who are not among the best climbers.... by stealing all of the minor points. Its also not competitive enough.

I think a good idea for the KOM would be to give points to the top 25 on hard stages, with bonuses on the last 2 hills. Not just doubling the last hill's points.

Name one rider who ended highly placed high in the KOM competition who got there by picking up their points on minor climbs. Just one.

[Kris Flatlander]

Name one rider who ended highly placed high in the KOM competition who got there by picking up their points on minor climbs. Just one.

David De La Fuente

[classic1]

Name one rider who ended highly placed high in the KOM competition who got there by picking up their points on minor climbs. Just one.

Bernard Vallet won the KOM one year without being able to ride over a speed hump:D


As to Green vrs Mountian. Any rider ranking system I have seen puts them at equal value.

The Tour actually rates green>dots

[Keith99]

Bernard Vallet won the KOM one year without being able to ride over a speed hump:D




The Tour actually rates green>dots

Not you! Just people claiming riders win the KOM picking up the "minor points".

And the Balloon of Alsace is a bit more than a speed bump.

Actually if his results are going to get criticism then so should the Green a lot of the time. In the top 10 on almost every climb vrs some others who were over every mountian first one day and no where to be seen the next.

And even if we accept it as a case you had to go back to 1982 to find it.

[gcl8a]

Phil or Paul mentioned in the Stage today that the second most important jersey is the Green jersey.

I was kind of shocked at this, since it seems to me that the KOM jersey is the jersey behind the GC jersey that demands the most of its riders. I mean, the Green jersey essentially comes down to the last 1 mile on each of the 11 flat stages. Yet, the KOM jersey is a demanding test that can crack riders in dramatic fashion.

The Green Jersey may be older, but to me, I look at the KOM rider with more respect due to the effort it takes to win it.

With all of the Spring Classics being built for sprinters, and since points are awarded to 9th, 10th place and beyond for Sprinters in the Tour, it would seem to me that the Green Jersey, while a great accomplishment, is not the same as Paris-Roboix (excuse spelling) or the World's.

Also - I wish they would only award finish points to the top 3 riders. This would require that Hunter, Boonen and Zabel actually have to chase down those lead groups, rather than riding slowly through these flat stages which are supposed to be built for them in the first place.

You should try to follow bike racing beyond the doping scandals.

[VT Biker]

You should try to follow bike racing beyond the doping scandals.

I am trying....learning more each race. But unfortunately, the doping scandals seem to really get in the way.

[classic1]

snip.

I prefer the green over dots probably because

a/ road sprint tactics have been hammered in to me by my father and his mates since I was 9 years old :D

b/ The KOM is quite often not the best climber in the Tour, while the green jersey usually goes to the best sprinter.

I like how the Tour has changed the rules so that an uphill finish is worth double points. This alone is probably a recognition by the organisers that the competition was losing prestige due to the likes of Jalabert, Virenque and Rasmussen (not bagging them, all great riders) snagging a stack of points in one day of climbing on long attacks.