Professional Cycling For the Fans - Do you believe Cadel is clean?

Cadel was not in the doper's poll (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=325732).

Let's have a separate poll about him.

Whether you believe he's clean or is doping, please explain.

Boonen thinks he's clean..

Boonen claims he is one of the clean guys. Typically, in this sport, with the code of silence, it is rare for a rider to come out and explicitly point out a clean rider. And if you watched him on the last mountain stage, he out of all of them was hurting. I mean, he could not walk let alone even move his bike after crossing the line.

Cadel was not in the doper's poll (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=325732).

Let's have a separte poll about him.

Whether you believe he's clean or is doping, please explain.

no. i don't think you can ride at that level without cheating.

ed rader

Boonen thinks he's clean..
Boonen says he thinks he's clean.

Millar said he thought Vino was clean. :rolleyes:

He's clean. If you ever meet him... There is just no way he could dope. No way.

I think he is clean but at this point i wouldnt be shocked if anyone tested positive.

another useless poll.:rolleyes:

He's clean. If you ever meet him... There is just no way he could dope. No way.
That's what all those who ever met Tyler, or Floyd, said about them. :rolleyes:

Do you guys all have investments in swampland in Florida too?

Did you know the word gullible is not in the dictionary?

another useless poll.:rolleyes:
And what would a useful poll be like?

The results of such a poll are certainly useless. But as device to get the discussion going about how prevalent the doping in the peloton is, it is not useless.

More important question: Is Helmet Head clean? :p :D

And what would a useful poll be like?

The results of such a poll are certainly useless. But as device to get the discussion going about how prevalent the doping in the peloton is, it is not useless.

You have already stated that all the leaders are doping because they are leading. Until a rider is caught doing something its just opinion. You can point fingers, and very likely be wrong because you dont know. You have bashed the peloton in almost all of the threads, if ya dont like the race and pro cycling then dont watch it.

That's what all those who ever met Tyler, or Floyd, said about them. :rolleyes:


I rode with him several times when I was on the Volvo Development Team. If he is on the juice, that would ruin a lot of childhood memories.

You have already stated that all the leaders are doping because they are leading. Until a rider is caught doing something its just opinion. You can point fingers, and very likely be wrong because you dont know. You have bashed the peloton in almost all of the threads, if ya dont like the race and pro cycling then dont watch it.
I love the race. I love pro cycling. :love:

I hate the doping. I hate the denials of the doping. I hate the heads in the ground. I hate the attitude of acceptance. I hate the buying by the fans of the lame stories the riders come up with, like "I never tested positive so I'm clean". :fight:

You can't fix a problem that you're denying exists.
You can't fix the problem of widespread prevalance and acceptance of doping in the peloton if you deny it and think it's only a few isolated bad apples here and there.

But don't believe me, listen to an insider like Markus Fothen:

"Lots of the teams still clearly can't imagine that cycling without doping can exist, he said."

http://eurosport.yahoo.com/27072007/58/tour-de-france-roche-older-riders-blame.html

Consider the implication of that statement.
Let's say Disco and Lotto are "teams [that] clearly can't imagine that cycling without doping can exist". How do you participate without doping if you "can't imagine that cycling without doping can exist"? If you've got a clean guy in 2nd place, clearly you CAN imagine that cycling without doping can exist". But if that's true, then why are there teams that can't imagine it?

The pro peloton knows that all of the GC contenders are doping. Maybe a few can imagine a Tour somewhere down the line where everyone is clean, but not this year. Not yet. If you're not doping, you're not contending. Heck, you're probably not even participating. It's that prevalent.

I love the race. I love pro cycling. :love:

I hate the doping. I hate the denials of the doping. I hate the heads in the ground. I hate the attitude of acceptance. I hate the buying by the fans of the lame stories the riders come up with, like "I never tested positive so I'm clean". :fight:

You can't fix a problem that you're denying exists.
You can't fix the problem of widespread prevalance and acceptance of doping in the peloton if you deny it and think it's only a few isolated bad apples here and there.

But don't believe me, listen to an insider like Markus Fothen:

"Lots of the teams still clearly can't imagine that cycling without doping can exist, he said."

http://eurosport.yahoo.com/27072007/58/tour-de-france-roche-older-riders-blame.html

Consider the implication of that statement.
Let's say Disco and Lotto are "teams [that] clearly can't imagine that cycling without doping can exist". How do you participate without doping if you "can't imagine that cycling without doping can exist"? If you've got a clean guy in 2nd place, clearly you CAN imagine that cycling without doping can exist". But if that's true, then why are there teams that can't imagine it?

The pro peloton knows that all of the GC contenders are doping. Maybe a few can imagine a Tour somewhere down the line where everyone is clean, but not this year. Not yet. If you're not doping, you're not contending. Heck, you're probably not even participating. It's that prevalent.

Id like to see it clean just sooo all this doping talk doesnt over shadow the riders acclomplishments. I think it is gonna get there, but until cycling get a credable(not the one owned by a newspaper that doesnt follow their own rules) lab and a real governing body. As they catch and suspend the cheaters the others will take notice. Those that are tested clean and follow the rules of reporting (unlike Ras) are clean in my book. Im not ignoring doping, just not persecuting 'everyone'. Vino looked obvious, the top three GC contenders now have all had off days.

I also believe there are elite athelets that are just better and more gifted then others. Michael Jordan was in a league by himself, as is Tiger Woods, Wayne Gretzky, to name a few. I expect it in cycling too. Do I believe alt of them are doping? Yes. Do I believe all of them are doping? Not for a second.

The pro peloton knows that all of the GC contenders are doping. Maybe a few can imagine a Tour somewhere down the line where everyone is clean, but not this year. Not yet. If you're not doping, you're not contending. Heck, you're probably not even participating. It's that prevalent.
Why people don't understand this is beyond me.

Id like to see it clean just sooo all this doping talk doesnt over shadow the riders acclomplishments. I think it is gonna get there, but until cycling get a credable(not the one owned by a newspaper that doesnt follow their own rules) lab and a real governing body. As they catch and suspend the cheaters the others will take notice. Those that are tested clean and follow the rules of reporting (unlike Ras) are clean in my book. Im not ignoring doping, just not persecuting 'everyone'. Vino looked obvious, the top three GC contenders now have all had off days.

I also believe there are elite athelets that are just better and more gifted then others. Michael Jordan was in a league by himself, as is Tiger Woods, Wayne Gretzky, to name a few. I expect it in cycling too. Do I believe alt of them are doping? Yes. Do I believe all of them are doping? Not for a second.
You're buying into the B.S. when you start talking about "credible" labs.
A real governing body, yes, that would help.

Last year after Floyd's fiasco, I so wanted to try out testosterone and EPO. No one obliged. I'm no troll, I just want to try it also. That way I can formulate an informed opinion.

Keep in mind folks the doping trolls are foaming at the mouth waiting for a Discovery rider to test positive. A lot of them claim everyone dopes, but if they were honest a lot of them would tell you Discovery are the best dopers. Now some of them will come out and say Cadel is clean, but he is the only one. Who knows. It is a guessing game. I will tell you this if Levi or Contador come up positive it will make a lot of peoples year on this forum. The will pee all over themselves from the excitement. It will be a lot of see I told you so.

Richard

You're buying into the B.S. when you start talking about "credible" labs.
A real governing body, yes, that would help.

Le Equipe owns the lab dont they? They are not credable.

Keep in mind folks the doping trolls are foaming at the mouth waiting for a Discovery rider to test positive. A lot of them claim everyone dopes, but if they were honest a lot of them would tell you Discovery are the best dopers. Now some of them will come out and say Cadel is clean, but he is the only one. Who knows. It is a guessing game. I will tell you this if Levi or Contador come up positive it will make a lot of peoples year on this forum. The will pee all over themselves from the excitement. It will be a lot of see I told you so.

Richard
It certainly would not make me happy, unless it helped spread the understanding of how prevalent the doping is in the peloton.

Until we recognize and accept the problem we cannot begin to solve it.

How do you know? Are you in the peloton? Have you ever been in the peloton? I posed this in another thread. If it is so easy to dope and not get caught why are all of these guys getting caught? The guys getting caught doping are showing a trend. The trend is desperation as in Floyd and Vino.

Richard


It certainly would not make me happy, unless it helped spread the understanding of how prevalent the doping is in the peloton.

Until we recognize and accept the problem we cannot begin to solve it.

It certainly would not make me happy, unless it helped spread the understanding of how prevalent the doping is in the peloton.

Until we recognize and accept the problem we cannot begin to solve it.

You keep saying we like those of us on this forum can do something about it.:rolleyes:

It certainly would not make me happy, unless it helped spread the understanding of how prevalent the doping is in the peloton.

Until we recognize and accept the problem we cannot begin to solve it.

The problem is you believe you're teaching us all something by telling us everyone dopes. When we want to talk racing, you talk cheating and tell us to wake up. We're awake... and still want to talk racing.

The problem is you believe you're teaching us all something by telling us everyone dopes. When we want to talk racing, you talk cheating and tell us to wake up. We're awake... and still want to talk racing.
Give me an example of where others wanted to talk racing, and I talked cheating.

You have already stated that all the leaders are doping because they are leading. Until a rider is caught doing something its just opinion. You can point fingers, and very likely be wrong because you dont know. You have bashed the peloton in almost all of the threads, if ya dont like the race and pro cycling then dont watch it.


+1 on this post to all you poseurs

You keep saying we like those of us on this forum can do something about it.:rolleyes:
We're a part of it.

+1 on this post to all you poseurs
This is the problem in the peloton and outside of the peloton.
This is what Lemond is trying to say.

There is a cycling and there is doping. Attacking doping is not attacking cycling.
Doping is the enemy, not cycling.

Attacking an attacker of doping (like Lemond, or myself) does not help cycling.

I'm optimisitic in that at least the members of this forum seem to be realizing this.

But there are still some resistors who can't seem to distinguish an attack on doping and dopers in cycling from an attack on cyclists and cycling. But you're in good company (Lance, Tyler, Floyd, Bruyneel, Bob Roll, ...).

Give me an example of where others wanted to talk racing, and I talked cheating.


http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=326159

http://bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=320560

- not glaring examples but it wasn't easy finding any posts to threads whose main topic was not doping.

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=326159

http://bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=320560

- not glaring examples but it wasn't easy finding any posts to threads whose main topic was not doping.
Yes, I thought I was being pretty good and avoiding doing what you accuse me of doing.

In the first example I made one tiny 2 sentence comment, and the first sentence was not about doping. The second was a cynical remark, and it did not divert the discussion (though comments from others about doping, apparently not connected to mine, did).

The second example is also a snide remark mixed into a relevant comment. I mean, it's not like I went into any one of my doping diatribes in the middle of a discussion about racing, which is what you made it sound like.

I rode with him several times when I was on the Volvo Development Team. If he is on the juice, that would ruin a lot of childhood memories.

Dopers thrive on that kind of reasoning. People want to believe their guy is clean...

T

There is a cycling and there is doping. Attacking doping is not attacking cycling.
Doping is the enemy, not cycling.



I couldn't agree more. But I've been called a troll, "someone who hates cycling" (and far worse) for bringing up doping...
Lets hope things change. I think they will.

You are called a troll because if someone disagrees with you you blame it on their nationality or some other nonsense.

You went from not knowing how to purchase an entry level bike to being an expert in doping in pro cycling within a few months.

When someone with a deep knowledge of the sport tries to explain something to you that counters your point you resort to a personal attack.

You certainly seem passionate about the sport, and that is good. Maybe one day you will realize respectful people can have a difference of opinion.

Richard


I couldn't agree more. But I've been called a troll, "someone who hates cycling" (and far worse) for bringing up doping...
Lets hope things change. I think they will.

I couldn't agree more. But I've been called a troll, "someone who hates cycling" (and far worse) for bringing up doping...
Lets hope things change. I think they will.

I think the sport is afraid that if they stop doping, or if all the actual doping is publicized, that they'll lose the sponsors and fans. So they naturally try to sweep it all under the rug.

I think the fans need to make it clear that we will support the sport and sponsors as long as they are open and honest about what is going on, and make a genuine effort to clean things up.

The culture of doping has to change. We need to push for weekly 2 hour AA like discussions. We need to make it okay to for rider to work against riders who dope, not the other way around (e.g. Lance chasing down Simeoni for talking).

We need to support the tossing of Ras for a violation of the basic rules of reporting location. All this feeling sorry for him because maybe, just maybe, the noncompliance had nothing to do with doping has to be flushed. And we need to encourage more controls like that.

Cycling in the pro peloton is a privilege, and you have to consent to their very strict rules to participate. It's for the best of the sport, and we should demand it.

Dopers thrive on that kind of reasoning. People want to believe their guy is clean...

And how is it yoou have come to this conclusion?

You went from not knowing how to purchase an entry level bike to being an expert in doping in pro cycling within a few months.

Richard

That was a total non sequitur.
I have been watching the Tour since 1977. Saw it in France as a kid growing up. My heroes were Thevenet and Hinault whom I saw racing in France on burgudian roads on many occasions.
So I needed advice on buying a bike. So what? Does that somehow negate my experience with pro-cycling?

I think the sport is afraid that if they stop doping, or if all the actual doping is publicized, that they'll lose the sponsors and fans. So they naturally try to sweep it all under the rug.

I think the fans need to make it clear that we will support the sport and sponsors as long as they are open and honest about what is going on, and make a genuine effort to clean things up.

The culture of doping has to change. We need to push for weekly 2 hour AA like discussions. We need to make it okay to for rider to work against riders who dope, not the other way around (e.g. Lance chasing down Simeoni for talking).

We need to support the tossing of Ras for a violation of the basic rules of reporting location. All this feeling sorry for him because maybe, just maybe, the noncompliance had nothing to do with doping has to be flushed. And we need to encourage more controls like that.

Cycling in the pro peloton is a privilege, and you have to consent to their very strict rules to participate. It's for the best of the sport, and we should demand it.

I agree, and think things are changing, not just on these boards, but -- way more importantly -- in the peloton.
Lets see if Contador stays in the race. That will be interesting.

Dopers thrive on that kind of reasoning. People want to believe their guy is clean...
And how is it yoou have come to this conclusion?
It's a basic observation of human nature.

Why Contador?

Richard


I agree, and think things are changing, not just on these boards, but -- way more importantly -- in the peloton.
Lets see if Contador stays in the race. That will be interesting.

It's a basic observation of human nature.


Wrong, its your observation, meaning opinion since there in nothing to back it up.

That would not be a basic observation. It would be an unusual situation.

Richard


It's a basic observation of human nature.

Wrong, its your observation, meaning opinion since there in nothing to back it up.

There is nothing to back up the assertion that "People want to believe their guy is clean...". Jeeze, that transcends every aspect of human life. It's a primal instinct probably required for survival ("my guy is the good guy, the other guys are the bad guys"). If people weren't wired to think that way, they probably couldn't organize into effective social groups.

This is so fundamental I can't believe anyone who doesn't live in a cave alone on some mountain would question it. With all due respect, are you autistic? I'm just curious.

Why Contador?

Richard

Couldn't say actually -- I just remembered I once asked for advice on buying a new bike.... ;) :rolleyes:

That would not be a basic observation. It would be an unusual situation.

Richard

That "people want to believe their guy is clean" would be an unusual situation???

WTF? :eek:

No that 100% of any group of people cheat. That is unusual. You can't get 100% agreement that the earth isn't flat.

Richard


That "people want to believe their guy is clean" would be an unusual situation???

WTF? :eek:

Couldn't say actually -- I just remembered I once asked for advice on buying a new bike.... ;) :rolleyes:

Seriously, if one looks at the Contador's wattage, I think it is suspicious...

We shall see...

What about Evans? His team manager today said that Contador was worn out at the end of today's stage, and could not hold onto Evans's wheel.

Richard


Seriously, if one looks at the Contador's wattage, I think it is suspicious...

We shall see...

We have all asked for advice on buying a new bike. I still do.

Richard


Seriously, if one looks at the Contador's wattage, I think it is suspicious...

We shall see...

No that 100% of any group of people cheat. That is unusual. You can't get 100% agreement that the earth isn't flat.

Richard
100% of any group of people cheat... That would be unusual.

Who said anything about that? Am I missing something? I just reviewed the last few posts and don't get where this came from.

You

Richard


100% of any group of people cheat... That would be unusual.

Who said anything about that? Am I missing something? I just reviewed the last few posts and don't get where this came from.