Here's how to solve the doping problem

[donrhummy]

Any criminoligist can tell you that the harsh-punishment-deterrent type of thing never works, because they never think they'll be caught. The better thing to do, and this is no joke, is hire some psychologists/social workers and require 2 hours a week all year round to teach them why doping is wrong. And EVRERYONE including the DS, managers, cyclists are required to attend. They should make them group meetings like AA groups. Seriously, the key is NOT catching the dopers -- by that time it's too late and the bad press of catching them hurts the entire sport. Instead, they need to keep them from doping in the first place.

And heck, if Alcoholics Anonymous can be as successful as it is (and it is successful) with people who are PHYSICALLY and mentally addicted to something, then I'll bet this program (if done for real and confidentially -- what is said in the group STAYS in the group) can work too. Sure, it won't get rid of 100% of the dopers, but it'll get rid of more than just testing+punishment ever will.

[VT Biker]

Hmmm....

Hmmm.....

Not sure how to even respond to this........


Lets begin with this critique: Alcoholism is an addiction, and aside from the addiction, there is no incentive to use it from an external standpoint (i.e - success in life, job, performance etc..unless you want that fat chick at the bar to look better). Most people (once they accept they are addicted) want to stop using it.

PED's - while winning may be addicting, PED's are not an addition like alcohol. It is not like Armstrong is still loading up on EPO. To think that counseling would work is incorrect. Athletes doping do not want to stop using, because their livelihoods will be impacted due to the "free-rider" syndrome. The "free-rider" syndrome is killing most of the French teams already.

[donrhummy]

Hmmm....

Hmmm.....

Not sure how to even respond to this........


Lets begin with this critique: Alcoholism is an addiction, and aside from the addiction, there is no incentive to use it from an external standpoint (i.e - success in life, job, performance etc..unless you want that fat chick at the bar to look better). Most people (once they accept they are addicted) want to stop using it.

PED's - while winning may be addicting, PED's are not an addition like alcohol. It is not like Armstrong is still loading up on EPO. To think that counseling would work is incorrect. Athletes doping do not want to stop using, because their livelihoods will be impacted due to the "free-rider" syndrome. The "free-rider" syndrome is killing most of the French teams already.

The fact that alcohol is an addiction is not WHY it works, rather it's why it's SO HARD to get people to stop!

And I think it would work because most dopers don't actually want to be doping. Rather, they want to win, feel good, get money, etc. They see doping as a necessary evil but I don't know of one single doper who is glad to dope and would keep doing it even if they retired. And many feel bad/guilty doing it and wish they could do without it. It would work.

[Helmet Head]

Any criminoligist can tell you that the harsh-punishment-deterrent type of thing never works, because they never think they'll be caught. The better thing to do, and this is no joke, is hire some psychologists/social workers and require 2 hours a week all year round to teach them why doping is wrong. And EVRERYONE including the DS, managers, cyclists are required to attend. They should make them group meetings like AA groups. Seriously, the key is NOT catching the dopers -- by that time it's too late and the bad press of catching them hurts the entire sport. Instead, they need to keep them from doping in the first place.

And heck, if Alcoholics Anonymous can be as successful as it is (and it is successful) with people who are PHYSICALLY and mentally addicted to something, then I'll bet this program (if done for real and confidentially -- what is said in the group STAYS in the group) can work too. Sure, it won't get rid of 100% of the dopers, but it'll get rid of more than just testing+punishment ever will.
:beer:

Brilliant.

[USAZorro]

They need to test more riders (the top 10 finishers on each stage at least)

Penalize the DS's and/or team managers too.

The anti-doping labs and agencies need to live up to their side of the bargain (zero tolerance of leaks, thoroughly trained technicians, strict adherence to protocols, etc).

They should also start a Sr. Professional circuit so that these guys who are 32, 33, 36, (notice the ages of the majority of the guys who have been busted) feel that they have a future in the sport and hopefully won't be so tempted to cheat to continue to earn a living, or to write their name in cycling history.

Subject all professional riders to the same testing, but ban participation (lifetime) for anyone with a substantiated 2nd positive (cumulative throughout the course of their career).

These are just some ideas - not a comprehensive program.

[JPradun]

If you were offered $2-5+ million to ride your bike for a living, but you had to dope...would you care what the hell a psychologist says?

[VT Biker]

The fact that alcohol is an addiction is not WHY it works, rather it's why it's SO HARD to get people to stop!

And I think it would work because most dopers don't actually want to be doping. Rather, they want to win, feel good, get money, etc. They see doping as a necessary evil but I don't know of one single doper who is glad to dope and would keep doing it even if they retired. And many feel bad/guilty doing it and wish they could do without it. It would work.

You missed my point. There is no external incentive to drink. So once you decide that alcohol is bad, your life improves when you stop.

PED's are the opposite. No one wants to dope. But by not doping, they are out of work, because unless they can be certain everyone else is clean, they themselves will dope, thinking that everyone else is still going to dope. Hence - the "free-rider" syndrome. Everyone assumes everyone else is breaking the rules, so everyone breaks the rules. There would be no punishment for cheating under your plan.

[donrhummy]

They need to test more riders (the top 10 finishers on each stage at least)

Penalize the DS's and/or team managers too.

The anti-doping labs and agencies need to live up to their side of the bargain (zero tolerance of leaks, thoroughly trained technicians, strict adherence to protocols, etc).

They should also start a Sr. Professional circuit so that these guys who are 32, 33, 36, (notice the ages of the majority of the guys who have been busted) feel that they have a future in the sport and hopefully won't be so tempted to cheat to continue to earn a living, or to write their name in cycling history.

Subject all professional riders to the same testing, but ban participation (lifetime) for anyone with a substantiated 2nd positive (cumulative throughout the course of their career).

These are just some ideas - not a comprehensive program.

Won't work. Everyone who wins a stage knows they'll be tested, has that stopped any of them from doping? Nope. Has 2-4 year bans? Nope. Lifetime bans for second offenses? Nope. testing out of competition? nope. Punishment-deterrents do NOT work. Testing and more testing doesn't work (see Lindsey Lohan and her alcohol-testing anklet + dope in the pocket for more info). THESE METHODS WILL NOT WORK.

[donrhummy]

You missed my point. There is no external incentive to drink. So once you decide that alcohol is bad, your life improves when you stop.

That's not true. Alcohol is VERY pervasive in social life, especially in europe/asia. One of the toughest things for alcoholics is hanging out with other people all of whom want to consume alcohol. they're no longer a part of the group, or, if they're younger, not cool.

[FixdGearHead]

How about putting a skull and crossbones on the drugs, to let the riders know they're bad?

[tinrobot]

Maybe we could get Nancy Reagan to tell them to "just say no"

[FixdGearHead]

"You, Riis...I learned it by watching YOU"

[VT Biker]

So a psychologist, wearing a cardigan, playing light classical in his waiting room will deter riders from doping, but losing money and opportunities to ride will not?

Okay - and all these parents telling their children not to do drugs or have sex in high school is effective as well.

[FixdGearHead]

Link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-Elr5K2Vuo)

[rizz]

And heck, if Alcoholics Anonymous can be as successful as it is (and it is successful)

AA has somewhere around a 5-10% success rate, which is about the same as folks quitting on their own. I'd say they aren't very successful at all. Anyway, the AA folks are trying to treat an addiction. Are we now suggesting that cyclists are addicted to the stuff their taking? Nope, definitely not. AA idea bad. Veto!

['nother]

"You, Riis...I learned it by watching YOU"

Classic.

[IA'sker]

I prefer criminalizing cheating under the racketeering statutes. These teams/riders are trying to steal by being better than they really are. I think we should carrry this over to all sports to get rid of doping. Barry Bonds would have thought twice if his dopping not his lying cost prison time. The teams or riders who cheat are defrauding the fans and the sponsors so they are criminally conspiring to steal. Call it what it is and prosecute it. Just my 2 cents.

[ezoons]

Just chop their goolies off.

[Helmet Head]

So a psychologist, wearing a cardigan, playing light classical in his waiting room will deter riders from doping, but losing money and opportunities to ride will not?

Okay - and all these parents telling their children not to do drugs or have sex in high school is effective as well.
A weekly reminder of the denial/delusion/rationalizing thinking they are using will it make more difficult to continue.

[slvoid]

Ban doping under penalty of DEATH.

That way, their lives are literally on the line.

[gabdy]

Hmmm....

Hmmm.....

Not sure how to even respond to this........


Lets begin with this critique: Alcoholism is an addiction, and aside from the addiction, there is no incentive to use it from an external standpoint (i.e - success in life, job, performance etc..unless you want that fat chick at the bar to look better). Most people (once they accept they are addicted) want to stop using it.

PED's - while winning may be addicting, PED's are not an addition like alcohol. It is not like Armstrong is still loading up on EPO. To think that counseling would work is incorrect. Athletes doping do not want to stop using, because their livelihoods will be impacted due to the "free-rider" syndrome. The "free-rider" syndrome is killing most of the French teams already.

Yes, but the feeling from doping and the rewards of winning could be very addictive indeed(For instance steroid users sometimes talk of euphoric feelings after they take the drugs). Once they retire they let go of the will to succeed in Cycling. Just like a normal drug addict, when they have had enough they let go too.
Also blood transfusions etc could also give a type of euphoric feeling, as having extra blood in your veins may do. Special Forces Soldiers use transfusions to heighten there senses prior to missions. I've read having the extra blood in your system can leave the subject feeling more of a man than normal ie "I felt like superman"

['nother]

Bah, this is all BS.

The way to "solve" the doping problem is to just turn your head and say, "look, the Tour (and other major cycling events) have been going for X number of years, weathered World Wars, other cheating scandals, and so on, so it's all cool, see? You Johnny-come-lateley dope trolls just shut up because you know nothing about the sport. Nothing to see here. Go back to your newbie hole and talk with your other dope trolling friends. 'That is all.'"

[harlond]

donrhummy, while I'm not certain of your solution, I definitely agree with your premise that harsh punishment is a proven ineffective deterrent. I think it's instructive that so many posters insist that more of the same remedies that have demonstrated themselves to be complete failures are nonetheless superior.

'nother, your solution is succeeding in other sports, but I think the time for implementing it in cycling may have passed.

['nother]

'nother, your solution is succeeding in other sports, but I think the time for implementing it in cycling may have passed.

may have passed? :rolleyes:

Look, sorry if your sarcasm meter wasn't pegged from my post, but yeah, it's *WAY* past that. But the problem seems intractable. Adding to that are the masses who are content to express their "care" for the sport by saying "it's been this way forever, just appreciate it for what it is, if you don't agree you are wrong and/or a newbie who knows nothing about this sport, 'That is all.', and so on."

[El Diablo Rojo]

I agree that harsh punishment is not working. We need a one time amnesty. Let all of those who are willing come forward and name names. Let them tell all with out any reciprocation's. Then if they ever test positive again it's a lifetime ban. No second chances. No one is going to tell all if they think that they will lose past wins, and have to pay back past earnings. Let the light of day shine on those who have been doing this in the dark, this includes the DS's and team managers who if not directly involved are turning a blind eye to what is going on. The only way to stop this is to have the majority of the peloton speak freely with out fear.

['nother]

I agree that harsh punishment is not working. We need a one time amnesty. Let all of those who are willing come forward and name names. Let them tell all with out any reciprocation's. Then if they ever test positive again it's a lifetime ban. No second chances. No one is going to tell all if they think that they will lose past wins, and have to pay back past earnings. Let the light of day shine on those who have been doing this in the dark, this includes the DS's and team managers who if not directly involved are turning a blind eye to what is going on. The only way to stop this is to have the majority of the peloton speak freely with out fear.

That will work, exactly *one time*. Without other major changes, they'll all be right back at it the following year, because there is a chance they can win without getting caught.

[Hezz]

I think the counselling idea is good but you have to hit the riders and the teams where it hurts them and this is in thier pocket books. Money and race time.

Instead of ruining a career it would be better to fine and time penalize riders for positive tests. For instance if you get a positive test you are not thrown out of cycling or a race you are given a healthy fine and a significant time penalty. Say 1 hour for each positive test. And a five thousand dollar fine. Combine this with daily sample giving, high quality testing and higher occurance random testing. This would be far more effective in my opinion.

[maddyfish]

[QUOTE=donrhummy;4947410]Any criminoligist can tell you that the harsh-punishment-deterrent type of thing never works, because they never think they'll be caught. QUOTE]

Don't know about that, I've wanted to beat the tar out of people on occasion. The only thing that stopped me was fear of jail. Maybe I'm different.

[VT Biker]

I think the counselling idea is good but you have to hit the riders and the teams where it hurts them and this is in thier pocket books. Money and race time.

Instead of ruining a career it would be better to fine and time penalize riders for positive tests. For instance if you get a positive test you are not thrown out of cycling or a race you are given a healthy fine and a significant time penalty. Say 1 hour for each positive test. And a five thousand dollar fine. Combine this with daily sample giving, high quality testing and higher occurance random testing. This would be far more effective in my opinion.

Are you kidding me?

This seems like getting off easy. I hope you are not Michael Vick's sentencing judge.

[I saw Elvis]

Just chop their goolies off.
Agree with this one :)
I too have my own pet theory for stopping doping, in which every rider who wants to dope can, providing they can ride past me, they have a bike, I 'll have a baseball bat, I know it's radical, but I'm willing to give it a go if the dopers are...

[Maelstrom]

AA and NA Requires someone who wants to be clean (you also have to be christian to some degree whcih is beside the point, but I find the 12 step to be bull****). Sorry I don't buy it. Unless you honestly believe everyone wants to be clean?...which I don't believe. Clean up 10% and you still have a dirty tour

[caotropheus]

And what about let them dope at will and lets see wich drug is the fastest?! If anyone dies, that's his (hers) problem!

[El Diablo Rojo]

That will work, exactly *one time*. Without other major changes, they'll all be right back at it the following year, because there is a chance they can win without getting caught.

Well like I've said before this year they are catching the dumb cheats, the smart ones are still getting away with it. However what my idea would help to do is cripple the infrastructure. Once the confessions started someone will out the main doctors who are providing the 'good' stuff. This is essentially a 'whistle blower' law for cycling. It works in the real world and it can and would work in cycling.

The AA model only works if the person who is getting the council wants to be helped. Even then it's has only moderate success.

[Eyeseeu]

I have the solution that will save pro cycling. They should take a lesson from drag racing, and have racing categories:
Stock-clean
Modified-one power add
Super Modified- two power adds
Top Fuel- Take whatever you want

They would run the race as normal and do 100% testing at the end...top clean rider wins stock, etc. Of course that wouldn't really work, but it would make it interesting.

[531phile]

I agree that harsh punishment is not working. We need a one time amnesty. Let all of those who are willing come forward and name names. Let them tell all with out any reciprocation's. Then if they ever test positive again it's a lifetime ban. No second chances. No one is going to tell all if they think that they will lose past wins, and have to pay back past earnings. Let the light of day shine on those who have been doing this in the dark, this includes the DS's and team managers who if not directly involved are turning a blind eye to what is going on. The only way to stop this is to have the majority of the peloton speak freely with out fear.

who is that as your avatar? she looks super hot.

[531phile]

maybe we can solve the doping problem by doing away with all the sponsorships(b/c that's where the "drug money" is coming from and rebrand the tour de france the tour de mammary glands where busty topless women come to ride the hills.

[El Diablo Rojo]

who is that as your avatar? she looks super hot.

She is my wife, and yes she is incredibly hot.

[Michigan]

...No one wants to dope. But by not doping, they are out of work, because unless they can be certain everyone else is clean, they themselves will dope, thinking that everyone else is still going to dope. Hence - the "free-rider" syndrome. Everyone assumes everyone else is breaking the rules, so everyone breaks the rules.

Thanks VT Biker. I'm always grateful when an occasional bit of clarity emerges here.

One single rider doping, or only the suspicion of one doping flushes everything everyone's trying to do right down the toilet, leaving each rider holding a dilemma; a) Dope and contribute to the outcome being a lie, or b) Don't dope and let the dopers make the outcome a lie. That's been the status quo from 1904-present and everyone's had to suspend belief or settle on aspects of the race other than who wins or loses for their enjoyment.

The problem and solution are in the hands of the authorities, not the riders. Nailing cheaters to the wall and using them for target practice is useless and unfair. The incentive for cheating has to be eliminated either by a 100% reliable testing system or by imposing penalties on all guilty parties (riders, teams, doctors, sponsors and drug suppliers) that force the risks they take to outweigh the potential rewards.

Apparently they're not willing or able to do either yet, and nothing will happen till they do.

In the meantime, I might blame some cheaters for being stupid and wreckless in the way they did it, but I won't excoriate them for cheating itself or denying it in public. For LA, Landis, Vino or Ras to come out and say "I did it" would subject them to running through an unfair media and fan gaultlet they might not deserve to, and nothing good would come of it if they did.

ASO and UCI need to stop their tug of war, get their houses in order and come up with something that works. Pull the plug on the race for a while if you have to, but do something worthwhile. This heavy handed treatment of cheaters is'nt the long term answer.

[roccobike]

....They should also start a Sr. Professional circuit so that these guys who are 32, 33, 36, (notice the ages of the majority of the guys who have been busted) feel that they have a future in the sport and hopefully won't be so tempted to cheat to continue to earn a living, or to write their name in cycling history....

I like that idea about a senior circuit. If there is that much money out there, why not. Maybe silver and gray jerseys for the top two senior riders.

[Hezz]

Are you kidding me?

This seems like getting off easy. I hope you are not Michael Vick's sentencing judge.

True this seems like getting off easy but it would be somewhat more effective because it hurts the racers where it counts.

The need to punish for some self-rightous moral reason is not the solution.

[MoreHills]

Don't they just test the winner of the stage and one other at random? You got 160-189 riders and your chances of being the random rider is less than 0.7%. I say test 10-15. You'd probably catch one or two every time.

[USAZorro]

donrhummy, while I'm not certain of your solution, I definitely agree with your premise that harsh punishment is a proven ineffective deterrent. I think it's instructive that so many posters insist that more of the same remedies that have demonstrated themselves to be complete failures are nonetheless superior.

'nother, your solution is succeeding in other sports, but I think the time for implementing it in cycling may have passed.

This sounds exactly like the EU weenie back in about 1996 who said that the failure of a single salvo of tomahawk missiles to stop Milosavich's ethnic cleansing was "proof that force isn't the answer". That guy couldn't have been more wrong. It was only proof that that wasn't enough force to deter him.

What's this got to do with anything? Well, given that some guys are still getting caught doing stupid doping tricks, it only means that for some of the riders, they think it's worth the risk. Seeing what the severity of the consequences are, one could only imagine that they think they aren't likely to get caught.

What cycling needs to do is:

A. Take an intelligent look at what motivates riders to take the risk and address those factors (possibly Sr. Circuit, possibly some other solution(s)).
B. Determine what teams/riders are doing to work the current system (admittedly a tough thing to figure out - perhaps E-D-R's [the guy with the super-hot wife :D] amnesty idea would permit that to happen),
C. Tip the scales so that riders think it's no longer worth the risk. Now, it seems there's still a group of riders that calculate that by not wearing a leader's jersey or winning a stage, their chance of getting tested is so small as to make it worth the risk.
D. Get their act together with regard to following testing and reporting protocols.

[ReptilesBlade]

"free-rider" syndrome?

[NuBiker]

They need to test more riders (the top 10 finishers on each stage at least)

Penalize the DS's and/or team managers too.

The anti-doping labs and agencies need to live up to their side of the bargain (zero tolerance of leaks, thoroughly trained technicians, strict adherence to protocols, etc).

They should also start a Sr. Professional circuit so that these guys who are 32, 33, 36, (notice the ages of the majority of the guys who have been busted) feel that they have a future in the sport and hopefully won't be so tempted to cheat to continue to earn a living, or to write their name in cycling history.

Subject all professional riders to the same testing, but ban participation (lifetime) for anyone with a substantiated 2nd positive (cumulative throughout the course of their career).

These are just some ideas - not a comprehensive program.

very good thinking +1 totally agree.

[cibai]

Everyone always says that the tests are behind the dope, so why don't the testers keep samples for multiple years?

[FlashBazbo]

OP, that's in incredibly loopy idea. (Sorry. That's as easy as I can let you down.) Counseling is most assuredly NOT the answer. When a person doesn't think they have a problem, no amount of counseling will cause them to modify their behavior. The counselor comes off sounding like an idiot -- not a difficult thing for most counselors to do, anyway. (Although it would give cyclists someone else to make the butt of their jokes between counseling sessions.)

Don't you think these guys have already had it hammered into their brains why breaking the rules is bad? (Of course, they have.) Don't you think these guys already know the health and professional risks they face? (Of course they do.) They are operating on a different ethic. The only way to get them operating on an appropriate ethnic is to make sensible rules and enforce them -- rules that will deprive them of the things they value most, if they violate the rules.

After counseling fixes the doping problem, send all the counselors to the Middle East to explain why terrorism is bad. Then, they can return home and take tots through the process of discovering why tantrums aren't really very nice.

[biker128pedal]

Hmmm....
Lets begin with this critique: Alcoholism is an addiction, .....

$ and success are an addiction.

[xfimpg]

Any criminoligist can tell you that the harsh-punishment-deterrent type of thing never works, because they never think they'll be caught. The better thing to do, and this is no joke, is hire some psychologists/social workers and require 2 hours a week all year round to teach them why doping is wrong. And EVRERYONE including the DS, managers, cyclists are required to attend. They should make them group meetings like AA groups. Seriously, the key is NOT catching the dopers -- by that time it's too late and the bad press of catching them hurts the entire sport. Instead, they need to keep them from doping in the first place.

And heck, if Alcoholics Anonymous can be as successful as it is (and it is successful) with people who are PHYSICALLY and mentally addicted to something, then I'll bet this program (if done for real and confidentially -- what is said in the group STAYS in the group) can work too. Sure, it won't get rid of 100% of the dopers, but it'll get rid of more than just testing+punishment ever will.

Great idea, but too much money involved so... pass the needle...

[531phile]

how about this, how about we force anyone caught doping that they need to race fully naked or they can't race at all for LIFE.

[roadwarrior]

unless you want that fat chick at the bar to look better).

Of course, she is also drinking....and looking at you.


:twitchy: