Astana's Andreas Klöden said Saturday he is considering retiring after the recent wave of doping scandals (http://www.velonews.com/tour2007/news/articles/12993.0.html) have left him in fear he may end up in jail one day.

The 32-year-old, one of the pre-race favorites to win this year's Tour de France, told German daily newspaper Bild that he has trouble sleeping and fears criminal elements are creeping into his sport.

"I find it difficult to sleep," said the 2004 German champion, who was excluded from the Tour on Tuesday after his whole Astana team withdrew in the wake of leader Alexander Vinokourov's failed drugs test. And team-mate Matthias Kessler was suspended by Astana in June for testing positive for testosterone.

"Maybe I will quit completely, I fear that the sport will become criminalized and people will end up in prison," added Klöden. "What will happen if somebody pours something banned into my salad? I would then be tested positive and I'd go to prison. I really do not want that, I have a family. All this doesn't make any sense anymore."

The German rider, who was fifth in the Tour's general classification before withdrawing, was at a loss to understand how other cyclists can be involved in doping.

"Vinokourov is accused of doing a blood transfusion, but he knew he would have been tested," Klöden said. "It's like driving at 150 kph, while you are restricted to 80 and there are speed cameras all around you. The same with Matthias Kessler. He had a testosterone level higher than we've ever seen before. And that between two races where he was challenging for victory, and would have known tests were likely. Nobody can be so stupid."

Even more ominously, he raised the possibility of riders' careers being sacrificed in the current dispute between Tour organizers ASO and the UCI.

"I know it sounds fanciful," he said. "In cycling the UCI and ASO are fighting for the Tour. People are plotting things; everyone is wishing the worst for everyone else. A lot of money is at stake. What if some people are manipulating things, ruining things, in order to take control of what's left?" If he is retiring, I wish him only the best in the future. :beer:

What a horrible way to have to retire. :(

If he is retiring, I wish him only the best in the future. :beer:

What a horrible way to have to retire. :(

Yeah, he is worried someone will pour EPO in his beer and he will go to prison...

No. The guys who built a career on lying and cheating must now retire. And, they are gonna blame those folks who go around sneaking drugs into riders' drinks.

Earlier this year, Kloden was offered a job with a team that was going to require weekly drug tests of all of its riders...he said "No way". Kloden selected a team that will be remembered as being "Team High"...his choice, and now he wants to blame others?

Though I find his statements interesting, I can only hope that he has been a clean rider.

"I hope the number of drug tests is going to increase: if everybody is afraid to take them, nobody will take drugs anymore."

The German said he has been tested 14 times this year (http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=6&click_id=185&art_id=nw20070717144926679C681478) in preparation for the Tour and of those six were unexpected.

"The inspectors always found me, even when I stayed with my parents in May," he said.

kloden = crybaby biyotch. it's no wonder he wasn't the team leader :eek:.

ed rader

He has always struck me as someone who whines and complains far too much. His teammates must hate him, and with good reason.

"A lot of money is at stake."

That, friends, is the take-away for all of this.

His statements are inconsistent with what a truly clean/innocent rider would say, and are totally consistent with what a doping rider would say while making a lame attempt to sound like he is clean and innocent. It's pathetic.

Screw Kloden, man. I'm sure he's retiring because he's afraid of getting caught, or he thinks he can't survive in a completely clean peloton

...I'm sure he's retiring because he's afraid of getting caught, or he thinks he can't survive in a completely clean peloton


Yup. There will be a "wave" of retirements of the guys who are age 30 to 35 who have developed a sudden fear that someone has been secrectly spiking their beer with banned substances, and don't want to go to jail.

The good news is, the younger generation of riders, the guys who are age 20 to 28, can now make a fresh start. Ride clean. And not have to wonder why these old dudes look like they are riding on rocket fuel.

oh no.. i will be so sad to see another doper retire.. :(

Yup. There will be a "wave" of retirements of the guys who are age 30 to 35 who have developed a sudden fear that someone has been secrectly spiking their beer with banned substances, and don't want to go to jail.

The good news is, the younger generation of riders, the guys who are age 20 to 28, can now make a fresh start. Ride clean. And not have to wonder why these old dudes look like they are riding on rocket fuel.


phil liggett is that you? the camera's off so you can quit bull****ting the viewers :eek:!

ed rader

How conveniently timed. It appears L'Equipe has released the results of Vino's B-sample earlier today. I'm sure you can guess.

How conveniently timed. It appears L'Equipe has released the results of Vino's B-sample earlier today. I'm sure you can guess.

Maybe he got the news the way George Costanza got the results of his lab test. George's doctor suspected George had some terrible, always fatal illness. Sent some blood to the lab.

The lab called and said "The results are negative" And George said "Negative, negative...Lord, lord, why are you doing this to me...why me....why me...". and then a pause while the folks from the lab tried to explain the meaning of "negative" versus "positive".

Although, the French lab tends to refer to cyclists' result as being "non-negative"....I suppose "positive" has now taken on a negative connotation.

His statements are inconsistent with what a truly clean/innocent rider would say, and are totally consistent with what a doping rider would say while making a lame attempt to sound like he is clean and innocent. It's pathetic.+1

Man, tough crowd....

The guy broke his tailbone, worked his busted ass for a guy who flunked a blood test, and as a result got tossed out of the rest of the tour. Of course he's going to be discouraged, upset, mad, not necessarily making smart statements etc.

Not that I have any sympathy for dopers, but I think accusing Kloden of doping because he is frustrated & shooting his mouth off is unjustified.

Lets take a look at Mr. Kloden's quote:


"I find it difficult to sleep," said the 2004 German champion, who was excluded from the Tour on Tuesday after his whole Astana team withdrew in the wake of leader Alexander Vinokourov's failed drugs test. And team-mate Matthias Kessler was suspended by Astana in June for testing positive for testosterone.


Yeah - you and Michael Vick have trouble sleeping. Want to know who has trouble sleeping: criminals, cheats and liars.

Kloden knows that at age 32, he will be 33 for next year's tour. It is highly improbable that he could win next year at age 33, if clean. And I think he realizes that they are zeroing in on the cheats. So is someone with an ego the size of Kloden's and ethics on the level of Enron to do?

phil liggett is that you? the camera's off so you can quit bull****ting the viewers :eek:!

ed rader

What is Phil suppose to do as a television commentator covering the sport. If anything, he has been the most vindictive of the 4 on Versus when it comes to the dopers. I think in part, Phil is hoping as well, because I imagine there is some disillusionment with all of these doping allegations.

What is Phil suppose to do as a television commentator covering the sport. If anything, he has been the most vindictive of the 4 on Versus when it comes to the dopers. I think in part, Phil is hoping as well, because I imagine there is some disillusionment with all of these doping allegations.


first off i love phil liggett.

secondly, i don't believe the poster is a television commentator so let's drop the spin. phil liggett said the same thing after the festina affair because that's his job and people don't want the type of cynical commentary that guys like me would serve up :eek:.

so to suggest that the "new generation" of cyclists are different is just plain absurd.

ed rader

first off i love phil liggett.

secondly, i don't believe the poster is a television commentator so let's drop the spin. phil liggett said the same thing after the festina affair because that's his job and people don't want the type of cynical commentary that guys like me would serve up :eek:.

so to suggest that the "new generation" of cyclists are different is just plain absurd.

ed rader

I never beleives the poster was actually Phil. But Phil and the crew have tried to sell the idea that the under-30 crowd is clean. If Phil was not paid to announce the event (i.e. - was paid outside of a party with a direct interest in the presentation of the sport of cycling and the Tour), then I would demand a bit more journalistic integrity. But he has to somewhat spin the doping scandal. You and I in his position would do the same thing if we were paid by Versus to cover the event.

If Phil was to come out and lambaste all the other riders, and tell the public that the entire Tour is a sham, we would get Bob doing the play by play for each sprint. I do not want that and you do not want that.

Yeah, he is worried someone will pour EPO in his beer and he will go to prison...

No. The guys who built a career on lying and cheating must now retire. And, they are gonna blame those folks who go around sneaking drugs into riders' drinks.

Earlier this year, Kloden was offered a job with a team that was going to require weekly drug tests of all of its riders...he said "No way". Kloden selected a team that will be remembered as being "Team High"...his choice, and now he wants to blame others?

Yea, good time for him to get out before he gets caught..

I would miss him.

Yeah, he is worried someone will pour EPO in his beer and he will go to prison...

No. The guys who built a career on lying and cheating must now retire. And, they are gonna blame those folks who go around sneaking drugs into riders' drinks.

Earlier this year, Kloden was offered a job with a team that was going to require weekly drug tests of all of its riders...he said "No way". Kloden selected a team that will be remembered as being "Team High"...his choice, and now he wants to blame others?
+1000

Does anybody doubt he was going to retire anyway? This is just a rant filled excuse. I happen to agree with his PR rant but it is, just an excuse.

Klöden has natural talent, the east German system picked the most talented youth and then juiced them up to make them that much better athletes. If he was doping on top of his talent and he had such varying results then doping isn't everything its made out to be.

I don't know what's happening within the Peleton because the whole thing has sickened me into ignoring the sport for a while. I personally dislike the UCI about as much as the dopers themselves and will not support such a despicable organization with my viewership- regardless of how entertaining the racing is. Until cycling fans stop blindly accepting both the dopers and the corrupt and small organizing bodies pro cycling deserves to go the way of the XFL. Perhaps then a new form of professional cycling will emerge from the ashes worthy of fans but until they are dead to me.

At 33, Klöden's chances of winning his first TdF are too low to contemplate. He's had his glory and sounded ready to retire last year. I think he made some good points but am not convinced that those are his actual reasons for contemplating retirement.

Let's wait a bit till Kloden calms down; he may well sign with another team and race for a year or two.

It is of course possible that Kloden is making an excuse to be able to retire because he's been doping and is now more worried about being caught.

On the other hand, it's also quite possible that his comments are an honest analysis of the current state of the sport and potential witch-hunting attitude, comments born somewhat out of frustrating but also potentially being accurate in their analysis.

I've wondered a number of times why people get caught for ridiculous and easily-catchable doping offenses, especially when there's no payoff. Heras tested positive for EPO in the final time trial of the 2005 Vuelta, when he was already in the lead and had little chance of losing that lead to Menchov. Vinokourev knows that if he does a blood transfusion with someone else's blood, he'll probably ride really well. So well that he'll be sure to be tested afterwards. The risk - losing face, national popularity in Khazakstan, is much higher than the potential gain.

Now it's quite possible (likely, so far as I understand the mechanics of the test) the Vino doped. Maybe that Heras doped. But Kloden is right that these offenses don't make sense, and don't seem to be the moves of calculating men, the sort of men who win stage races.

I would relish the opportunity to question the test lab that performs the analysis of the urin and blood. What is the sample chain of custody, are the test methods validated, to what degree have they been validated, what is the required training to perform the test, are failing results evaluated? Wanna bet there are gaps?

I would relish the opportunity to question the test lab that performs the analysis of the urin and blood...
Oh, please. What's next, are you going to buy Vino's "blood in the thigh" excuse? :rolleyes:

Vino bombed two separate tests and the "B" tests are/were supervised. No one at the lab has any motivation to take out a rider who already lost. I'm fine with the accused reviewing the evidence for lab errors, but after awhile listening to every athlete who gets hit with an adverse finding complain about lab procedure gets old.

Maybe that Heras doped.

He was less than a second from winning that flat time trial... the fastest in the history of the Vuelta.

The way the German authorities have been trying to deal with Jan Ullrich it doesn't look like an empty threat that in the future a German rider with a positive result could have criminal charges brought agains't him. If you look at the extreme way the German media have been reacting they are taking this doping very seriously in Germany. If the future possibility exists of making doping a criminal offence in Germany who would want to ride. You've seen how much due process the riders get.

He was less than a second from winning that flat time trial... the fastest in the history of the Vuelta.
Yeah, and I didn't expect him to ride nearly that well in that TT. But had plenty of cushion - did he not expect to get tested for EPO? That's what seems strange to me.

The way the German authorities have been trying to deal with Jan Ullrich it doesn't look like an empty threat that in the future a German rider with a positive result could have criminal charges brought agains't him. If you look at the extreme way the German media have been reacting they are taking this doping very seriously in Germany. If the future possibility exists of making doping a criminal offence in Germany who would want to ride. You've seen how much due process the riders get.
Yup, which makes Kloden's comments more reasonable when put into context.

Yeah, and I didn't expect him to ride nearly that well in that TT. But had plenty of cushion - did he not expect to get tested for EPO? That's what seems strange to me.


What does it matter if they test for it? The test isn't necessarily going to find it.
Apparently, according to people like Andreau and Vaughters, doping effectively is all about the professional little details. And apparently USPS was all about that.
No suprise at Discovery doing so well lately... only the best know how to dope heavily and get away with it at the moment. The others keep screwing up their methods and thus these positive tests happen.

Many of these recent doping busts sadden me. Not that riders are doping but they are apparently doping so badly. Dopers can absolutely get away with doping still but some of these riders choose to dope using methods that will absolutely get them caught. I am saddened by their stupidity.

Instead of using the highly effective EPO methods or autologous blood doping these idiots choose to tempt fate with homologous blood doping or a lot of testosterone.

Oh, don't blame the poor riders. It's not their fault. They have to dope. They're just innocent victims in the whole system. Those that don't use EPO, etc. are just too poor to afford it. They would if they could.

Poor riders :cry:

Velonews.com has Kloden saying he'll start training soon; he was just frustrated and mad when he said he might retire.

"I'm not sure what's going to happen to Astana. For me personally I've decided to restart training once people close to me had helped me overcome my disappointment," he said. "I'm going to try to be part of the German team competing at the world championships in Stuttgart in September and to compete at my top level in front of my supporters."

http://velonews.com/race/int/articles/13016.0.html

His statements are inconsistent with what a truly clean/innocent rider would say, and are totally consistent with what a doping rider would say while making a lame attempt to sound like he is clean and innocent. It's pathetic.

I disagree. Spiking food is a real concern. While he is right that Vino and Kessler would have been stupid to intentionally dope the way they did, its possible they made mistakes.

re: Heras Yeah, and I didn't expect him to ride nearly that well in that TT. But had plenty of cushion - did he not expect to get tested for EPO? That's what seems strange to me.

He didn't take EPO before the time trial, he more than likely blood doped, but the blood wasnt scrubbed before it went back in..

Epo doesn't work over night, it takes a few days at least, and the synthetic version can be detected within about 3 or 4 days of it use, depending on dosage of course..


If you can bang in some Epo before you have some blood withdrawn, it helps you body replace the red cells faster, so you don't have as much "down time" where you can't race or train effectively after the withdrawl. Heras problem was that the withdrawn blood probably still had traces of EPO in it, and once thawed and reinfused the traces tripped the test. I think the same thing happened with Floyd last year, and Mayo this year.

Fuentes was charging a lot of euros, because he had allegedly found a way to scrub all traces of banned PED's before putting the blood back in. But either that was not available when Heras won, or he wasn't using Fuentes.

Take Tylers Medical records from Fuentes Office. Right after the Dauphine he was instructed to bang in a ton of EPO, some Gh, Testo, and some female hormone, probably to mask the testo.. I was amazed at the amount of EPO and figured he must have been somewhere remote, so he could be pretty sure he wouldnt be tested out of competition. After about a week of this, they withdrawl some blood, hope its clean, scrub it if its not, and then freeze it till the night before the big mountain stage, or TT etc..

But then WADA was getting urine samples with no EPO at all, not even the naturally occuring version. So someone found a way to mask it im guessing. They've got a lead on some sort of detergent or powder that neutrlizes it, and it was rumored that you just had to have a little under your finger nail and whiz on it as you filled the cup. But there is always the condom full of clean urine up the ass trick, and if WADA has a meat gazer on hand to stare at you wang while your whizzing, you can always have someone elses clean urine stuffed up your urethra with a big syringe and then you just let it out.. Lovely, but it has happened before.

After about a week of this, they withdrawl some blood, hope its clean, scrub it if its not, and then freeze it till the night before the big mountain stage, or TT etc..
.

It's neat looking back, like on that early mountain stage a few years ago where all of Armstrong's teamates mysteriously were dropped on the last climb, day before a rest day. Effect of (lack of) doping in action.

But there is always the condom full of clean urine up the ass trick

Not as pleasant as it sounds :eek:

It's neat looking back, like on that early mountain stage a few years ago where all of Armstrong's teamates mysteriously were dropped on the last climb, day before a rest day. Effect of (lack of) doping in action.

exactly, every single domestique had a bad day... then when they got their blood, they came back super strong, and there are some IM's from Vaughters to Andreu about that day in some court papers as well.

I would relish the opportunity to question the test lab that performs the analysis of the urin and blood. What is the sample chain of custody, are the test methods validated, to what degree have they been validated, what is the required training to perform the test, are failing results evaluated? Wanna bet there are gaps?

and how qualified are you to make any judgement? do you even know what a mass spectrometer is, or a gas chromatogram? let alone discussing the ins and outs of ramp voltage, ionisation environment, carrier gas, peak identification, baseline subtraction, ion counts, minor isotope echo peaks, myoglobin fraction standard injection, etc etc.

three blind men standing on the sidelines arguing about a particular shade of pink in last night's sunset does not change the sunset one bit.

The way the German authorities have been trying to deal with Jan Ullrich it doesn't look like an empty threat that in the future a German rider with a positive result could have criminal charges brought agains't him. If you look at the extreme way the German media have been reacting they are taking this doping very seriously in Germany. If the future possibility exists of making doping a criminal offence in Germany who would want to ride. You've seen how much due process the riders get.

Not to mention, it would be pretty easy for someone to spike a riders food/water as Kloden worried.