You're just giving away 2nd? "Cadel doesn't have anything to worry about tomorrow". You basically have 2nd place, because that time penalty was BS. Now you won't fight for 2nd and contest the win? Way to race for 3 weeks, kill the TT only to give up on the last day. I've been rooting for him the whole time and now he just gives up on 2nd.

Its polite. No real position changes on the ceremonial last day.

Its a gentlemans agrement not to attack eatch other on the final stage, and I think Levi wold have a hard time getting those seconds

You're just giving away 2nd? "Cadel doesn't have anything to worry about tomorrow". You basically have 2nd place, because that time penalty was BS. Now you won't fight for 2nd and contest the win? Way to race for 3 weeks, kill the TT only to give up on the last day. I've been rooting for him the whole time and now he just gives up on 2nd.

Levi had other chances to put time into Cadel, but like the majority of Levi's racing he's a wheel follower. Levi races 'not to lose' instead of racing to win. This year Cadel tried to win, he did his best to stay with the big men in the mountains. Levi either couldn't or wouldn't answer the call when it came. If past is prologue then I'd say he wouldn't answer the call. I will say though today he put it all out there, of course he could have had a total melt down and still not lost 3rd place so essentially he had nothing to lose.

Its a gentlemans agrement not to attack eatch other on the final stage, and I think Levi wold have a hard time getting those seconds



Except when Vino did it to Levi...lol.

Except when Vino did it to Levi...lol.

Well Vino doesnt follow that rule ether :p

Time penalty was BS? The mechanic pushed him uphill for a minute. Lucky he didn't get kicked out.

It's a gentlemen's agreement when the time gaps are larger than 8 seconds. You think Cadel isn't going to attack Contador? In my eyes, Levi technically won 2nd due to that bs 10 second penalty.

Cowards!

Time penalty was BS? The mechanic pushed him uphill for a minute. Lucky he didn't get kicked out.

No, that's actually not what happened at all.

It's a gentlemen's agreement when the time gaps are larger than 8 seconds. You think Cadel isn't going to attack Contador? In my eyes, Levi technically won 2nd due to that bs 10 second penalty.

Cowards!

Well you got a point, but both Cadel Evans and Levi Leipheimer has told the press that thei are not gonna attack. So I will be very suprised if they do.

Nobody remembers who came in second except Ryanf. They certainly don't remember who came in third except for Ryanf.

Going after those 8 seconds on the last day would be crass, accomplish nothing except earn the disgust of the entire tour, cycling fans, and all the other riders.

Where are all these people coming from with these inane threads? Cycling has gentlemen's rules and agreements that you break at your peril. No attacking in the feed zone. No attacking during a natural break. Paris stage is for the sprinters, not GC. No attacking when there's a crash.

Levi won't make a dime more if he were in second place and he respects Cadell Evans for putting in a monster effort and isn't going to do anything stupid/silly/tacky/crass/cheap to tarnish that. He'd gain nothing and lose quite a lot.

Levi raced a good race. He led AC up the last climb when I felt he could have dropped him & got time. He's a gentleman in the sport. But one question. Did Cadel get the time bonus for winning the first TT when Vino was DQ'D? Phil said something about it not being awarded as yet.

Levi raced a good race. He led AC up the last climb when I felt he could have dropped him & got time. He's a gentleman in the sport. But one question. Did Cadel get the time bonus for winning the first TT when Vino was DQ'D? Phil said something about it not being awarded as yet.

No I dont think so, Vinos B-test was confirmed positiv this evning, so I think you can add that time to.

There is no bonus for winning the time trial aside from the joy of winning it.

Richard

No I dont think so, Vinos B-test was confirmed positiv this evning, so I think you can add that time to.

Nobody remembers who came in second except Ryanf. They certainly don't remember who came in third except for Ryanf.

Going after those 8 seconds on the last day would be crass, accomplish nothing except earn the disgust of the entire tour, cycling fans, and all the other riders.

Where are all these people coming from with these inane threads? Cycling has gentlemen's rules and agreements that you break at your peril. No attacking in the feed zone. No attacking during a natural break. Paris stage is for the sprinters, not GC. No attacking when there's a crash.

Levi won't make a dime more if he were in second place and he respects Cadell Evans for putting in a monster effort and isn't going to do anything stupid/silly/tacky/crass/cheap to tarnish that. He'd gain nothing and lose quite a lot.

Right. It would be disgusting to actually see them race, and not just see who can put time in to each other on the hills and TT's. I guess cycling fans don't have want a nitty gritty race. After all this is a gentlemens sport. Tea time and crumpets afterwords! It's funny that you liken, racing and going for after a result to stupid/silly/tacky/crass/ and cheap! It's RACING, not CROQUET.

Maybe I feel differently because I race, and couldn't just let 3rd go on the final stage. Perhaps 3 weeks on the road has lowered their testosterone levels.

There is no bonus for winning the time trial aside from the joy of winning it.

Richard

bah, your right, sorry

No, that's actually not what happened at all.


Did you watch it?? My god he grabbed his saddle and Bruyneel hit the gas for like a solid 15 seconds. I thought the 10 seconds was more than fair...i would have expected worse.

Levi had other chances to put time into Cadel, but like the majority of Levi's racing he's a wheel follower. Levi races 'not to lose' instead of racing to win. This year Cadel tried to win, he did his best to stay with the big men in the mountains. Levi either couldn't or wouldn't answer the call when it came. If past is prologue then I'd say he wouldn't answer the call. I will say though today he put it all out there, of course he could have had a total melt down and still not lost 3rd place so essentially he had nothing to lose.


levi led the 2007 amgen tour from beginning to end. you have to remember that levi is racing the best cyclists in the world and he has a team mate who will win tomorrow.

i guess he could attack contador a la doper vinokourev but a first and third in the tour de france is an excellent result for the TEAM.

if that's racing not to lose yeah i guess that's what levi's doing :eek:.

ed rader

That is what happened. I was surprised the mechanic didn't at least act like he was working on the bike. It is unfortunate that a damaged chain cost him second place, but the rules are the rules.

Richard

No, that's actually not what happened at all.

That is what happened. I was surprised the mechanic didn't at least act like he was working on the bike. It is unfortunate that a damaged chain cost him second place, but the rules are the rules.

Richard

He was on a descent with a broken rear derailer which is a substantial difference than a climb. Momentum accounts for the majority of your speed on a descent, where as gravity works against you on a climb (duh), thus he didn't really receive a substantial advantage. Did he bend the rules a bit? Yes. Bending the rules aren't breaking them. He needed a bike change, and then the mechanic was adjusting his seat position. Considering how fast they were going, I don't think the fact that the mechanic wasn't going all out over his bike while driving down the alps is a big deal.

He completed the descent before the team car could reach him. It was flat to uphill when they reached him.

Richard

He was on a descent with a broken rear derailer which is a substantial difference than a climb. Momentum accounts for the majority of your speed on a descent, where as gravity works against you on a climb (duh), thus he didn't really receive a substantial advantage. Did he bend the rules a bit? Yes. Bending the rules aren't breaking them. He needed a bike change, and then the mechanic was adjusting his seat position. Considering how fast they were going, I don't think the fact that the mechanic wasn't going all out over his bike while driving down the alps is a big deal.

And to further add if it was of no benefit why did they do it? Were they itching for a penalty?

Richard

He was on a descent with a broken rear derailer which is a substantial difference than a climb. Momentum accounts for the majority of your speed on a descent, where as gravity works against you on a climb (duh), thus he didn't really receive a substantial advantage. Did he bend the rules a bit? Yes. Bending the rules aren't breaking them. He needed a bike change, and then the mechanic was adjusting his seat position. Considering how fast they were going, I don't think the fact that the mechanic wasn't going all out over his bike while driving down the alps is a big deal.

And to further add if it was of no benefit why did they do it? Were they itching for a penalty?

Richard

All the reports i've come across, have stated it was on a descent, in addition to the live coverage.

....Levi had already completed the desent and was on the flat when the team car caught up with him. He got the new bike and then in a pretty blatent move, was towed along by the team car for a good distance, helping him re-join the group. I too was surprised that a larger penalty wasn't assessed.

Maybe if Levi had EVER done anything other than wheel suck for 95% of the tour he might have won. As someone else said....Levi appears to race not to lose, rather than race to win. That's exactly why I'm GLAD Contador is going to win. I would have been happy if Cadel had won, as well. Both of those guys went out and TRIED to win. They risked it when Levi wouldn't. Levi is a third rate version of Landis who was a third rate version of Lance.

Maybe I feel differently because I race...

Or, maybe you feel differently because you don't race at the highest levels. Maybe because the TdF doesn't mean that much to you as an event.

This is more than a Saturday afternoon criterium. Part of the deal is respect for the traditions of the event. It is those traditions that make the TdF something special.

Give Levi a break! He won his first Tour de France stage today in one of the best time trial performances ever.

He was on a descent with a broken rear derailer which is a substantial difference than a climb. Momentum accounts for the majority of your speed on a descent, where as gravity works against you on a climb (duh), thus he didn't really receive a substantial advantage. Did he bend the rules a bit? Yes. Bending the rules aren't breaking them. He needed a bike change, and then the mechanic was adjusting his seat position. Considering how fast they were going, I don't think the fact that the mechanic wasn't going all out over his bike while driving down the alps is a big deal.

You may be thinking of a different event. The one we are referring to is when the mechanic held on to Levis seat on an uphill while Levi was trying to catch back onto the peloton. It was clearly not flat or downhill and the mechanic was not fixing a thing.

He was on a descent with a broken rear derailer which is a substantial difference than a climb. Momentum accounts for the majority of your speed on a descent, where as gravity works against you on a climb (duh), thus he didn't really receive a substantial advantage. Did he bend the rules a bit? Yes. Bending the rules aren't breaking them. He needed a bike change, and then the mechanic was adjusting his seat position. Considering how fast they were going, I don't think the fact that the mechanic wasn't going all out over his bike while driving down the alps is a big deal.

What bike race were you watching? The team car was pushing him so much they were passing dropped riders. They were past the descent. The mechanic wasn't working on his seat at all. It was as blatant as I've ever seen. LL got off lightly with a 10 second penalty

....Levi had already completed the desent and was on the flat when the team car caught up with him. He got the new bike and then in a pretty blatent move, was towed along by the team car for a good distance, helping him re-join the group. I too was surprised that a larger penalty wasn't assessed.

Maybe if Levi had EVER done anything other than wheel suck for 95% of the tour he might have won. As someone else said....Levi appears to race not to lose, rather than race to win. That's exactly why I'm GLAD Contador is going to win. I would have been happy if Cadel had won, as well. Both of those guys went out and TRIED to win. They risked it when Levi wouldn't. Levi is a third rate version of Landis who was a third rate version of Lance.

You're right. he isn't a Landis or Lance. He doesn't have positive doping tests to discredit his victories.

Or, maybe you feel differently because you don't race at the highest levels. Maybe because the TdF doesn't mean that much to you as an event.

This is more than a Saturday afternoon criterium. Part of the deal is respect for the traditions of the event. It is those traditions that make the TdF something special.

The traditions of the event? I'm no tour historian, but the last day of the tour hasn't always been a gallop through Paris. Recall the ITT with Lemond on the last day of the tour. I seem to remember a certain Kazak, and a few sprinters going at it the last couple of years. It's a victory stroll when the yellow jersey is +2:00 away from second place. Levi wouldn't be racing for 1st, rather 2nd. I doubt we're going to see a sunday stroll tomorrow.

You're just giving away 2nd? "Cadel doesn't have anything to worry about tomorrow". You basically have 2nd place, because that time penalty was BS. Now you won't fight for 2nd and contest the win? Way to race for 3 weeks, kill the TT only to give up on the last day. I've been rooting for him the whole time and now he just gives up on 2nd.

Well, the whole idea is a bunch of nonsense. Where is he going to make the time? Do you really think Cadel and his team are going to let Levi get anywhere near a breakaway? And Levi ain't winning a bunch sprint. Plus, there going to have a bunch of teams that have yet to win a stage sending guys out for one last shot at glory. A bunch of guys riding like hell hoping to get away on the break. But all of those guys will be 20+ minutes down on GC. And they be eating up all the time bonuses. And I'm sure Zabel, Hunter, Hushovd, and Chavanel all want another shot at taking down Boonen at the finish. How do you realistically expect Levi to get the time?

For a guy who says that he races, it seems odd that you don't understand this about the TdF.

levi led the 2007 amgen tour from beginning to end. you have to remember that levi is racing the best cyclists in the world and he has a team mate who will win tomorrow.

i guess he could attack contador a la doper vinokourev but a first and third in the tour de france is an excellent result for the TEAM.

if that's racing not to lose yeah i guess that's what levi's doing :eek:.

ed rader

Gee I had no idea these were the best cyclist in the world...thanks for pointing that out.

The ToC is in no way the same caliber as the TdF. The ToC is a tune up race for most Euro pros and Levi stated that it was one of his big objectives this year. Please go back and look at Levi's history. He never attacks, he's a wheel follower, he was content with his 4th place and would have rather consolidated that than go out and put Cadel into difficulty. He's always been that way, even at this years TdF, he never was the one who tried to ride away from his rivials. He's a safe racer. Cadel was considered to be that kind of rider until this year and he earned himself a podium place at the TdF. He wasn't gifted it by having the leader removed.

Levi has no shot at those points with a green jersey battle still underway.

Boo hoo hoo. What did Cadel do that Levi didn't. You sound quite bitter.

Richard

The ToC is in no way the same caliber as the TdF. The ToC is a tune up race for most Euro pros and Levi stated that it was one of his big objectives this year. Please go back and look at Levi's history. He never attacks, he's a wheel follower. Cadel was considered to be that kind of rider until this year and he earned himself a podium place at the TdF. He wasn't gifted it by having the leader removed.

Boo hoo hoo. What did Cadel do that Levi didn't. You sound quite bitter.

Richard

WTF are you talking about? I'm bitter about anything. Go check your facts then get back to me. First every time that AC and MR took off the only one to even come close to countering them was Cadel. He waxed Levi in first TT and if you hadn't noticed had enough time to keep his lead over Levi even after Levi did the TT of his career. So I guess Cadel did a bit more than Levi and with a team that isn't even close to as strong.

Yea he did so much more. 8 seconds more, but wait Levi had a 10 second penalty, so Evans is -2 seconds. Really if you don't like Levi good deal, but Cadel was towed to the finish line twice by Astana in the mountains, and then complained they didn't go hard enough.

Should Levi counter AC move?

Richard

The traditions of the event? I'm no tour historian, but the last day of the tour hasn't always been a gallop through Paris. Recall the ITT with Lemond on the last day of the tour. I seem to remember a certain Kazak, and a few sprinters going at it the last couple of years. It's a victory stroll when the yellow jersey is +2:00 away from second place. Levi wouldn't be racing for 1st, rather 2nd. I doubt we're going to see a sunday stroll tomorrow.

I guess I don't see your point. The sprinters will be at it tomorrow just like Abdu did in the 90s. The last 20 k will be run at an incredible pace. The green jersey sometimes comes down to the last day but with the exception of '89, the yellow never does. That's just how it is, so deal with it and move on.

In 2003 the gap between Armstrong and Ulrich was only 1 minute. There was no attacking by the leaders that final Sunday and there will be none tomorrow.

Just about any place other than that descent, and the team car would have been up to him very quickly, but because they had to wait behind the long chain of riders, they weren't. As it was, he lost much more time coasting and waiting than the 3-4 seconds of progress he gained from the 10-15 second boost he got. It was just bad luck for him that he had the mechanical then, and bad luck also that Johann got a little frantic about getting him back. It's all part of the race, as is the 10 second penalty.

That little "push" is a frequent sighting if you watch long enough just like the handing out a water bottle that takes 10 seconds for the rider to get a really good handle on. :rolleyes: I don't deny it happened but the officials just need to be consistant with their rulings, that's all the riders can ask for, like consistancy by an umpire calling the strike zone.

Cycling has gentlemen's rules and agreements that you break at your peril.

Like the "gentlemen's rule" about not cheating?
Seriously, the tour is bunch of hooey anymore anyway, so screw it! Be the guy who attacked his own team on the last stage! Be the guy who told them where to shove their "gentlemen's rules"! Lap them on the champs! Win the tour....

You will live forever!

Time penalty was BS? The mechanic pushed him uphill for a minute. Lucky he didn't get kicked out.

There's a lot of, what do you call them, 99ers out here...:D

I guess I don't see your point. The sprinters will be at it tomorrow just like Abdu did in the 90s. The last 20 k will be run at an incredible pace. The green jersey sometimes comes down to the last day but with the exception of '89, the yellow never does. That's just how it is, so deal with it and move on.

In 2003 the gap between Armstrong and Ulrich was only 1 minute. There was no attacking by the leaders that final Sunday and there will be none tomorrow.

Like I said....

WTF are you talking about? I'm bitter about anything. Go check your facts then get back to me. First every time that AC and MR took off the only one to even come close to countering them was Cadel. He waxed Levi in first TT and if you hadn't noticed had enough time to keep his lead over Levi even after Levi did the TT of his career. So I guess Cadel did a bit more than Levi and with a team that isn't even close to as strong.

Why do you try??

Soon 3/4ths will be gone until next July.

You're right. he isn't a Landis or Lance. He doesn't have positive doping tests to discredit his victories.

Neither does LA. Sorry, couldn't let that piece of drivel pass like the others. :(

Why do you try??

Soon 3/4ths will be gone until next July.

Correct.

You're right. he isn't a Landis or Lance. He doesn't have positive doping tests to discredit his victories.

And neither does Lance. BTW...Lance WON seven times. Eat that with a spoon my friend, because you can't do anything about it.

The dog is asleep, the horse is dead........

But just to get my .02 in anyways. Bruyneel would have never let Levi attack today, never, ever, not in a million years. Why? Tradition has little to do with it.

Levi attacks, Evans covers (he and Lotto are more than capable) but Murphy's Law makes its appearance and AC gets caught out. So Levi moves up to #2 but Disco loses the Yellow and Lance and Bruyneel kill LL just before dying of heart attacks themselves.

In short the upside (moving up from #3 to #2) is nowhere near worth the risk.

But this is the most moot of points anyways.



:beer:

Levi stated clearly after yesterday's stage he was not going to attack. It is really not as complicated as you make it. Disco had an adundance of riches from this tour. There is no sense in trying to take second from Cadel, or sprint time bonuses, more KOM points, ect. You don't want to really rib it in for something that silly.

Richard

The dog is asleep, the horse is dead........

But just to get my .02 in anyways. Bruyneel would have never let Levi attack today, never, ever, not in a million years. Why? Tradition has little to do with it.

Levi attacks, Evans covers (he and Lotto are more than capable) but Murphy's Law makes its appearance and AC gets caught out. So Levi moves up to #2 but Disco loses the Yellow and Lance and Bruyneel kill LL just before dying of heart attacks themselves.

In short the upside (moving up from #3 to #2) is nowhere near worth the risk.

But this is the most moot of points anyways.



:beer:

And neither does Lance. BTW...Lance WON seven times. Eat that with a spoon my friend, because you can't do anything about it.

He had six urine samples test positive for epo from the 1999 Tour, they were tested in 2005. Someone did the dirty work to match the numbers on the samples to old UCI doping control forms, there were 12 total positives, 6 were Lances. There was not test for EPO back in 1999. This has been spun every which way to meet whomevers talking points, but its still there.

I think Levi could have won had he not had to work for Contador in the Pyrenees. In the last Pyrenees stage, I think he could have dropped Contador earlier to put time into Evans, or if Ras was not in the race, AC and LL could have worked together to put far more time into Evans.

Levi was actually good enough to win the Tour this year, he just was a victim of being a teammate of a young upstart.

That being said, the Tour got way screwed up with Ras being pulled halfway. I think that it would have played out much differently had Ras not started.