Professional Cycling - Gentleman's Agreement Non-Sense

I am a first time tour watcher mainly because i just got versus this summer. Regardless, I simply don't get this final day thing, where there are three riders within 30 seconds of each other, and nobody is going to attack.

I get the history deal and all of that, but for chrisake, the tour de France doesn't exactly wreak of dignity and honor. Why not have an official END to the competition like the rest of the world does in competitive sports?

Maybe this is what's wrong with the United States, or maybe this is what's wrong with France. I am not certain, but something seems screwed up.

The ride into Paris is traditionally more of a victory parade and a celebration for the riders who managed to finish the Tour (which is quite a feat in itself), kind of like a victory lap, or like the exhibition skate after a figure skating competition. The Tour is won the day before, and everyone knows that.

I am a first time tour watcher mainly because i just got versus this summer. Regardless, I simply don't get this final day thing, where there are three riders within 30 seconds of each other, and nobody is going to attack.

I get the history deal and all of that, but for chrisake, the tour de France doesn't exactly wreak of dignity and honor. Why not have an official END to the competition like the rest of the world does in competitive sports?

Maybe this is what's wrong with the United States, or maybe this is what's wrong with France. I am not certain, but something seems screwed up.

Well, even if they tried to attack it probably would be fruitless. The sprinters are going to control it. And no way do Disco or Lotto let Evans, Levi, or Contador get anywhere near a break or close to anything that would bring a time bonus.

This is easy. Before a race, riders a provided a set of rules, both written and unwritten. And, those rules provide that the GC will be settled the day BEFORE arrriving in Paris. All of the riders knew those rules and all had an equal opportunity to win under those rules.

After three weeks of hell, Contador, Evans, and Leipheimer deserve a parade and some champagne, and THAT is what the ride into Paris is all about.

The ride into Paris is traditionally more of a victory parade and a celebration for the riders who managed to finish the Tour (which is quite a feat in itself), kind of like a victory lap, or like the exhibition skate after a figure skating competition. The Tour is won the day before, and everyone knows that.

You are stating the obvious. My contention is that here in the USA we would demand a definitive end, to eliminate any question.

Well, even if they tried to attack it probably would be fruitless. The sprinters are going to control it. And no way do Disco or Lotto let Evans, Levi, or Contador get anywhere near a break or close to anything that would bring a time bonus.
:beer:

It has almost as much to do with the fact that this is a relatively flat stage and that GC contenders are almost never able to get time on each other in any flat stage for various reasons having mostly do with the fact that someone drafting is saving around 30% (give or take) of his energy as compared to someone not drafting (which makes it almost impossible to escape and stay away from a large group unless those in the group choose to allow it).

Now, if it gets really windy, the peloton splits, and AC and Levi are in the front group with most of Disco while Cadel is stuck in the tail portion... but even if the conditions were right I doubt Cadel and his team would let that happen.

Since the final stage is a flat, there is no way any of the leaders or their team mates are going to allow a breakaway. The Tour is never won on flat stages, only lost.

The only way they could make a Paris finish mean anything is to make it a time trial and that didn't go over well at all the year they did that.

Someone proposed on another thread to allow the three leaders along with a teammate for Evans to have a ten minute breakaway but there's no way Discovery Team would let that happen.

Let's just hope that Levi's superman performance in the TT today which was his first ever tour win was legit.

You are stating the obvious. My contention is that here in the USA we would demand a definitive end, to eliminate any question.

Your contention is wrong.

And as has been explained, even if they tried to attack each other it wouldn't work. There is a definitive winner. Tomorrow guys will be riding on yellow bikes, drinking champaign, and enjoying the last day of a brutal tour. At least until they get into Paris. Then someone who hasn't won yet is going to go balls out. And then the sprinters are going chase like mad. At that point, Contador, Cadel, and Levi are going to try and stay out of trouble.

It aint tradition. It aint a genteleman's agreement its reality.
An attack tomorrow won't work. Conceivably Evans could gain 12 seconds in the 2 intermediate sprints.However that would still be extremely unlikely, because others will also want points, and Discovery can suck up sprint bonsues at least ahead of Evans with Hincapie.

But even if he could get 12 seconds on the road into Paris (which is extremley unlikely) he's still 11 seconds short. He could get 20 seconds for the stage win, but there's this little problem of a guy name Boonen, and his like. Lots of people want toorrow's stage win that Evans has no prayer of beating in the flat field spirnt that is the final day of the TDF.

It's very unlikey that Evans would even give it a go, and if he does, the odds of success are astronomical.

You said you've watched 1 tour. Watch 20 and you'll understand

It aint tradition. It aint a genteleman's agreement its reality.
An attack tomorrow won't work. Conceivably Evans could gain 12 seconds in the 2 intermediate sprints.However that would still be extremely unlikely, because others will also want points, and Discovery can suck up sprint bonsues at least ahead of Evans with Hincapie.

But even if he could get 12 seconds on the road into Paris (which is extremley unlikely) he's still 11 seconds short. He could get 20 seconds for the stage win, but there's this little problem of a guy name Boonen, and his like. Lots of people want toorrow's stage win that Evans has no prayer of beating in the flat field spirnt that is the final day of the TDF.

It's very unlikey that Evans would even give it a go, and if he does, the odds of success are astronomical.

You said you've watched 1 tour. Watch 20i and you'll understand


Exactly.

As the others have stated, the entire day is a giant victory lap for the riders. There will be a sprint at the end but generally the GC riders will sit up and sip champagne. Besides, as the others have also stated, this is a relatively flat stage and there isn't anywhere to attack the yellow jersey and make it stick. If Cadel, or any highly place GC riders, went off the front it would be a pretty simple matter for Disco to dial up the cadence a bit and pull them back into the peloton.

I suppose they could all go max effort for the entire stage and whoever is left standing at the end is the winner but the outcome would probably be the same. With the way these guys are trained up and conserving energy by riding in a large group as they are even the less capable teams would be able to hang.

You are stating the obvious. My contention is that here in the USA we would demand a definitive end, to eliminate any question.

...And you probably like Gladiator fighting too..."state the obvious", huh...<shrugs shoulders, shakes head>

As has been stated. The final stage is not the kind of race that guys like Evans, Levi and Contador can win. But it is also not the kind of race that anyone can win by a large margin unless they are somehow extremely rested compared to the other riders.

So for the three leaders they just need to stay with the pack and finish the race without crashing out. This kind of a race will be won by one of the sprinters or someone who has more fully recovered from the past couple of days riding. Maybe someone who has been holding back a little in the hopes of getting a stage win on one day.

I mean look at the time gaps. Everyone after the three leaders is back like 7-8 minutes or more. And do any of these guys who are within 7-12 minutes think they can get that big of a break on the yellow jersey group and not get caught. Possible, but extremely unlikely.

Since the final stage is a flat, there is no way any of the leaders or their team mates are going to allow a breakaway. The Tour is never won on flat stages, only lost.

The only way they could make a Paris finish mean anything is to make it a time trial and that didn't go over well at all the year they did that.

Someone proposed on another thread to allow the three leaders along with a teammate for Evans to have a ten minute breakaway but there's no way Discovery Team would let that happen.

Let's just hope that Levi's superman performance in the TT today which was his first ever tour win was legit.

Cadel Evans and Predictor-Lotto should pool an Astana and either attack at the feed station or at the champaign toast.

This is the world according to OP:

My contention is that here in the USA we would demand a definitive end, to eliminate any question.

Today (Saturday) the definitive end, eliminating any question, took place.

My guess? If Contador's bicycle completely fell apart and he sustained a broken leg, all the cyclists would slow down sufficiently for him to catch up, pedaling with one leg. Anyone not honoring the leader would be in worse shape, professionally, than Vino.

This is the world according to OP:



:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:
:beer::beer::beer::beer::beer:

This is the world according to OP:




That is actually pretty accurate in terms of my view of the world. :D Look, I am a new viewer of the tour, because i have never been able to watch it before this year, so I am not nearly as sharp as you gents. But it seems odd to me that the announcers kept discussing the possiblity of an attack tomorrow based on the fact that there were 3 riders within 30 seconds of each other.

Again, I am not an expert but would expect the announcers to be. Of course they aren't as smart as ya'll but they did repeatedly discuss the prospect. Maybe it is perfectly logical, to still have innings, laps, quarters, or in this case a stage remaining in a competition and an agreement that nobody is going to compete in the final stanza.

But a dumb American like me just might wonder why include the final chapter in the competition if there will be no competing in it? They can still have a drunken swan song, but why the need to alledge that it is part of the competition? It clearly isn't.

You are stating the obvious. My contention is that here in the USA we would demand a definitive end, to eliminate any question.

There is a definitive end. On Saturday. Sunday is the victory parade in Paris with some fireworks by the sprinters for the crowd's benefit.

I get the history deal and all of that, but for chrisake, the tour de France doesn't exactly wreak of dignity and honor. Why not have an official END to the competition like the rest of the world does in competitive sports?

Maybe this is what's wrong with the United States, or maybe this is what's wrong with France. I am not certain, but something seems screwed up.

Seriously, can you believe the good guys don't win in Jean de Florette?! Give me Transformers!

You are stating the obvious. My contention is that here in the USA we would demand a definitive end, to eliminate any question.


I'm not an American, but yes, I also think it would probably be different in the US. Lots of things are.

was it 2 years ago that vinokourov won in paris by breaking away with about 3km to go? the sprinters couldnt catch him

In a sport searching for its footing after being rocked by corruption and scandal, observing some of its tradition is a good thing. Bicycle racing is sport with class and character, doping not withstanding.

Not attacking on the final day.
Not attacking when a person crashes.

These all show the sport in a positive light, which has been rare in recent years. The race is over after 19 and 20 is just a celebration. Lets all enjoy the things that make this sport great without *****ing and moaning about why people dont attack on stage 20. Bicycling isnt one of those sports where winning is EVERYTHING, and I for one will continue to love it for that reason and many others. For those of who who dont "get it" im sorry. But try and understand that this great race already has a winner, a runner up and a first runner up. If that isnt good enough for you then perhaps enjoying this great sport isnt for you.

The gaps are simply too big for Leipheimer to jump ahead of Evans or for Evans to jump ahead of Contador. Even with the time bonuses Leipheimer would have to win two sprints (he's a notoriously bad sprinter) and hope Evans does't place in those sprints to get back the 9 seconds required. It's a simple case of being realistic.

There is a definitive end. On Saturday. Sunday is the victory parade in Paris with some fireworks by the sprinters for the crowd's benefit.

that is awfully well put.

was it 2 years ago that vinokourov won in paris by breaking away with about 3km to go? the sprinters couldnt catch him

Levi ain't Vino. Breaking away and staying away is one thing that Vino is very good at. Levi ain't Vino.

that is awfully well put.

Thank you sir. I knew there was a reason I always enjoyed visiting your magnificent city.

that is awfully well put.

Maybe so, but one could argue that the definitive end was the other day when Rasmussen bowed out. :rolleyes:

Maybe so, but one could argue that the definitive end was the other day when Rasmussen bowed out. :rolleyes:


actually, that made the end all the more undetermined.

Been folowing the tour since the late 1930s (yes, am that old).
This is fast becoming the Tour de 'Farce' . . . $$$$ not riders are running the race.

That is actually pretty accurate in terms of my view of the world. :D Look, I am a new viewer of the tour, because i have never been able to watch it before this year, so I am not nearly as sharp as you gents. But it seems odd to me that the announcers kept discussing the possiblity of an attack tomorrow based on the fact that there were 3 riders within 30 seconds of each other.

Again, I am not an expert but would expect the announcers to be. Of course they aren't as smart as ya'll but they did repeatedly discuss the prospect. Maybe it is perfectly logical, to still have innings, laps, quarters, or in this case a stage remaining in a competition and an agreement that nobody is going to compete in the final stanza.

But a dumb American like me just might wonder why include the final chapter in the competition if there will be no competing in it? They can still have a drunken swan song, but why the need to alledge that it is part of the competition? It clearly isn't.

Look, a big part of the problem is that if Levi attacks then Contador has to attack with him. Why, because Cadel will react any move that Levi makes. And he's not far behind Contador. Disco won't let Cadel get out there and risk Contador winning the whole thing. So now Contador has to react. And believe me when they get to the Champ Elysees, Zabel, Hunter, Hushovd and Chavanel are all going to be looking to get a piece of Boonen. And being caught up in the middle of bunch sprints on the Champ Elysees is NOT where you want your guy wearing the yellow jersey. If Levi attacks, its going to create a whole hell of a lot of problems for Disco.

Been folowing the tour since the late 1930s (yes, am that old).
This is fast becoming the Tour de 'Farce' . . . $$$$ not riders are running the race.

Yes, they should learn from us.
I think that cyclists should stop riding during commercial breaks like in NFL, MLB and NBA.:rolleyes:

Been folowing the tour since the late 1930s (yes, am that old).
This is fast becoming the Tour de 'Farce' . . . $$$$ not riders are running the race.

The reality of almost every sport played at a top level is that money plays a key part in the decision making. Road cycling is actually unique as spectators do not pay to watch the event, the entire income is from sponsorships, TV rights and so on, which may cause some bias. OTOH, I am willing to bet that riders overall are enjoying more lucrative contracts then they did in the past, even while allowing for cost of living increase, inflation, etc., both from their teams and from sponsorship deals.

But it seems odd to me that the announcers kept discussing the possiblity of an attack tomorrow based on the fact that there were 3 riders within 30 seconds of each other.

That's the American way of getting you to watch more TV.

There was an attack on last year's stage 20, although the press hardly noted it.

After the stage 19 TT, second-to-last place Jimmy Casper was only 16 seconds ahead of last place Wim Vansevenant. Casper thought he'd escaped his third career ToF last place finish. On stage 20's run into town, Vansevenant realised no one was paying any attention to him, so he slipped up to the front of the peleton. As they approached a sprint, he took off, capturing a time bonus and bringing the Lanterne Rouge time gap down to a razor thin 6 seconds. A realization of what had just happened filtered through the peleton, and all the riders were highly amused - well, everybody but Casper! He marshalled his team and marked Vansevenant all the way to Paris! LOL!

TCS

Maybe so, but one could argue that the definitive end was the other day when Rasmussen bowed out. :rolleyes:

you mean thrown out.

ed rader

Maybe so, but one could argue that the definitive end was the other day when Rasmussen bowed out. :rolleyes:

No, you could not argue that. Rasmussen was fired by his team. Much different than bowing out.

"Been folowing the tour since the late 1930s (yes, am that old).
This is fast becoming the Tour de 'Farce' . . . $$$$ not riders are running the race."Happy 100th Birthday! Seriously though, let's keep our fingers crossed this is "the year" that pushes the Tour de France towards a truly honest competition. High hopes, but we can hope nonetheless.

i thought a final stage win in paris was more prestigious than any other stage win. if thats the case then everyone would want to win it and should be allowed to win it. why should cadel and levi be 'not allowed' to go for the stage win just because they are GC contenders rather than sprinters? if as a result they get a time bonus and move up a place overall then so be it.

The final stage is a pretty prestigious win, but the GC guys have little chance to actually win it and less reason to try with a big reason not to mix it up with the sprinters. As pointed out, Vino improved his finish results a few years ago during the final stage. This was an oddity of race confusion coupled with Vino's recklessness. There was confusion within the race as officials had neutrulized the intermediate bonus points due to weather and the peleton and commentators thought they had also neutralized the finish bonus points. Vino realized that the finish points were still open and went for them. Vino has always been a little reckless and took advantage of a particular circumstance so cannot not be used to prove any point outside that specific circumstances.

Sprint finishes are dangerous and they are won by masters of the sprint chaos who have the power, timing, and guts to win in that environment. Everybody else just tries to stay wheels down. Simply put, there is far more at risk for a high placed GC guy than a slight improvement in the standings justifies.

Additionally, by this point in the race, the teams are also thinking about their next races. They would be stupid to push for a chance at a TdF win or a slight placement change and risk a DNS at next weeks race that they might actually win. Also the racers have to worry about riding that fast in an angry peleton next week if they go for the win and cause a CG crash. If the CG#2 crashes out CG#1 sprinting for the bonus #2 might end up in a ditch next month.

The main reason for these codes and agreements is that they are professionals that have to work next week too. Amateurs can risk everything for a win, professionals have a job to do.

ESPN has a funny article about stage 20:
http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/tdf2007/columns/story?id=2953159


Here's what the Tour's official "Guide Touristique" has to say about it:


Chatenay-Malabry: Cyclists are very familiar with the name of Chatenay-Malabry, as it is the headquarters of the national anti-doping research centre, which unfortunately confirms many positive tests on the Tour.

Stage 20 also traverses Issy-les-Moulineaux, home to the corporate headquarters of the company that runs the Tour, Amaury Sports Organisation. Another one of ASO's holdings is the daily sports newspaper L'Equipe.

This could work out splendidly. The lab techs at Chatenay-Malabry could stand on the side of the road like the team staff members (called soigneurs) who hold feed bags (musettes), only instead of loading them with protein goop and tiny sandwiches and cakes and mini-colas, they'd be full of urine and blood test analysis results.

The Tour riders -- who all signed documents before the race swearing to do all they could in the effort to cleanse cycling of performance-enhancing drugs -- could act as bike messengers, picking up the packets and delivering them straight to the L'Equipe newsroom, where they usually wind up anyway.

I am a first time tour watcher mainly because i just got versus this summer. Regardless, I simply don't get this final day thing, where there are three riders within 30 seconds of each other, and nobody is going to attack.

I get the history deal and all of that, but for chrisake, the tour de France doesn't exactly wreak of dignity and honor. Why not have an official END to the competition like the rest of the world does in competitive sports?

Maybe this is what's wrong with the United States, or maybe this is what's wrong with France. I am not certain, but something seems screwed up.

It's real simple. At this level the riders are so good that it's nearly impossible, on a flat stage, for one to simply attack and ride away from another. Since there appear to be only two time bonuses, it's not going to work. To make up the time, it would have to be in the bonuses and none of these riders are having that. So, it's not worth it.

This isn't little league rec racing...unless there is an accident, the top riders all pretty much ride together with their teams. Even if there was an accident, the riders would not attack.

Frankly, it appears that you really don't yet understand what you are watching, but at least admitted such.

Hope you enjoyed it and learned a few things. Go there and see it for yourself someday. It's pretty spectacular.

You are stating the obvious. My contention is that here in the USA we would demand a definitive end, to eliminate any question.

There was a definitive end; it happened yesterday at the Time Trial.

You're thinking offense. Think defense.

Evans is sandwiched in between two Discovery team riders. What would he do if Contador and Levi separate onto different sides of the peleton? He'd have to go with Levi in a defensive move.

But what if Evans attacks Contador - and then flats? Don't expect Levi to wait for him! Levi attacks Evans, and Contador has a mechanical? Don't expect Evans to wait on him!

No, too much to loose today.

TCS

Here's a wacky suggestion for the Tour: since gentlemen's agreements/tradition/unwritten rules have such a high compliance rate, why not institute a gentlemen's agreement that riders shouldn't utilize pharmaceutical means or blood manipulation to enhance performance??

Here's a wacky suggestion for the Tour: since gentlemen's agreements/tradition/unwritten rules have such a high compliance rate, why not institute a gentlemen's agreement that riders shouldn't utilize pharmaceutical means or blood manipulation to enhance performance??

If only it could work. GC riders all agreed to provide blood values every few weeks to each other. All promise each other to only use what the others use. Sorta like gangs deciding if it's knives or guns.

(Funny that Tyler and Ullrich waited for Lance when he crashed, believing that to attempt to gain an unfair advantage would be wrong.)

OK, part 1 of dream scenario. Boonen decides he wants Cadel to take the Tour, so he and Vansevenant lead Cadel out, jamming on the brakes to let him take the 6 second bonus while taking second and third themselves.

Only 17 seconds down, Cadel prepares himself for the breakaway effort of his life to take first in Paris.

If you factor in Flat stage, team strength and the age of the radio controlled domestique any attack is doomed. In a way this is unfortunate for first time viewers who happen to tune into the last stage, may come off a little like a WWF match. But any attempts by the top three would be tactically doomed.

The only scenario I could imagine allowing the potential for an attack would be if there were somehow monsterous cross winds, and Evans team put pressure on for the entire stage. Similar to a spring classic.

OK, part 1 of dream scenario. Boonen decides he wants Cadel to take the Tour, so he and Vansevenant lead Cadel out, jamming on the brakes to let him take the 6 second bonus while taking second and third themselves.

Only 17 seconds down, Cadel prepares himself for the breakaway effort of his life to take first in Paris.

Since Quick Step and Predictor Lotto are huge rivals, I think this is not even at dream level.

That is actually pretty accurate in terms of my view of the world. :D Look, I am a new viewer of the tour, because i have never been able to watch it before this year, so I am not nearly as sharp as you gents. But it seems odd to me that the announcers kept discussing the possiblity of an attack tomorrow based on the fact that there were 3 riders within 30 seconds of each other.

Again, I am not an expert but would expect the announcers to be. Of course they aren't as smart as ya'll but they did repeatedly discuss the prospect. Maybe it is perfectly logical, to still have innings, laps, quarters, or in this case a stage remaining in a competition and an agreement that nobody is going to compete in the final stanza.

But a dumb American like me just might wonder why include the final chapter in the competition if there will be no competing in it? They can still have a drunken swan song, but why the need to alledge that it is part of the competition? It clearly isn't.

It is a part of the competition almost as a seperate 1 day event for the typical 1 day/sprinter/domestique rider who has helped his team leader.

Also seperate yet combined as a day of recognition for the winner..they always come into Paris in first as a team in recognition of the work of the team

Also of concern...closed course races as the race finishes in Paris have far more accidents than open road races, it is considered unfair to have the leader after 20+ days risk accident injury and lost race.

And lastly they want to promote the event and reward the fans with the closed crit style finish ergo the race seems to end the day before on the open road

Hope that helps you better understand