IMO, BF A&S postings are overrepresented (as compared to their actual number in the real world) by afew stereotyped "VC ubercyclists" who endlessly post the VC™ party line, and apologists for those self styled experts.
Trademark of VC übercyclists is boasting about their comrades' "skill" as "competent cyclists" or "experienced High Mileage Road Cyclists," their alleged superior safety record, and the importance of encouraging all others to be trained to emulate them in cycling thought and behavior.
I think there will always be different kinds of cyclists. Heck, I see roadies trying to go AFAP carrying as little extra weight as possible, blowing lights, etc. I see commuters wearing street clothes. I see many variations in-between, and preferences for road, bike lane, or path seems to vary also.
But to classify all "vehicular cyclists" into a group that fits a special description, from clothes worn to attitudes like blind obedience to cycling gurus, is quite imaginary in my opinion, even using a sample of "VC ubercyclists" from BF A&S.
It's fine to battle over bike facility issues, but to attempt to label people due to some perceived association with one's enemies seems like an attempt to intimidate those cyclists into shying away from saying what they think. In that respect, using such a negative strategy is just as bad as the "blind obedience to John Forester" you often criticize, in that it depends for it's success in preying on the weakmindedness of it's targets.
LittleBigMan
08-03-07, 06:20 PM
...bicyclists that understand how to ride 'according to the rules of the road' do not have to choose the most direct route, and some may be distinctly uncomfortable on some routes, to the point of avoidance.
Of course they don't have to choose the most direct route. And of course cyclists often choose routes because they are more comfortable than others.
I wonder when Rosanna Rosannadanna will finally say, "Nevermind..." about this thread.
For those of you not lucky enough to know this Saturday Night Live character played by the tremendously talented late actress Gilda Radner, she was a special commentator on the News segment. She would go on empassioned tangents about things that were actually the result of her own misunderstanding. Once she was corrected by the anchorman, she would turn to the camera and say sweetly "Never Mind!"
Bekologist
08-03-07, 11:57 PM
so, vehicular cyclists sometimes avoid certain routes?
interesting concession from the vc camp.....
CB HI
08-04-07, 12:26 AM
Again, VC does not dictate what route you should or must ride. Why is that so hard for you to understand?
Does your hate really blind you to such a degree?
Bekologist
08-04-07, 12:45 AM
dude. what ARE you talking about? it's not hate blinding me, it's the truth setting me free.....
some 'vehicular cyclists' will be uncomfortable on certain routes to the point of avoidance.
larryfeltonj
08-04-07, 02:45 PM
dude. what ARE you talking about? it's not hate blinding me, it's the truth setting me free.....
some 'vehicular cyclists' will be uncomfortable on certain routes to the point of avoidance.
Aside from your somewhat bizarre fixation on Forester (there are many people out there with whom I've had conflicts, but I never once incorporated them into my signature line) I don't necessarily think your train of thought is driven by hatred. I'm more inclined to view it as befuddlement.
The way I look at it there are two significant things about vehicular cycling and route choice. The first is that the more experience one logs cycling the better at choosing routes designed for particular objectives one becomes. The second, and it's related to your amusing crusade about skill levels on that other thread, is that as one gains experience cycling in a vehicular manner, one gets more comfortable in more varied situations. And it isn't just traffic volume and speed at play. This also includes handling variations in terrain and weather conditions which affect route choice.
Bekologist
08-04-07, 08:28 PM
and that's why you choose alternate routes, larry. correct.
larryfeltonj
08-05-07, 05:10 AM
and that's why you choose alternate routes, larry. correct.
Well, it's early on a weekend morning, and I'm in an energetic mood, so I guess I can loop back through this again.
What possible bearing does the "mellowness" of any route I choose have on the issue of how one behaves as a cyclist on the roadway? I've stated several times that I choose my route based on what I'm trying to do. If I'm commuting I almost always choose the most direct route. Likewise if I'm running an errand during my lunch hour, I want to get to the destination and back as quickly as possible.
On the other hand if I'm sightseeing or taking photographs I route myself based on the existence of interesting things along the route.
You haven't even made an assertion in this thread which makes any clear sense as a critique of VC other than something to the affect of "Aha!!! Larry admits that he makes route choices based on things other than the directness of the route!!!"
Newsflash.
So try to explain to this simple-minded southerner exactly what deficiency in the practice of vehicular cycling your epiphany has uncovered. Make it as succinctly as you can manage.
Bekologist
08-05-07, 07:24 AM
newsflash. you tend to avoid the roads around the liquior store on weekend nights, and are not fond of high speed, high volume narrow laned arterials, and choose a different route if you have time, larry.
stated as such in this thread. deficient? hmmm......
vehicular cyclists can choose different routes. correct, larry.
there's no 'epiphany' except that there are different levels of ability and traffic comfort among cyclists that know how to ride according to the rules of the road.
larryfeltonj
08-05-07, 07:46 AM
newsflash. you tend to avoid the roads around the liquior store on weekend nights, and are not fond of high speed, high volume narrow laned arterials, and choose a different route if you have time, larry.
stated as such in this thread. deficient? hmmm......
vehicular cyclists can choose different routes. correct, larry.
there's no 'epiphany' except that there are different levels of ability and traffic comfort among cyclists that know how to ride according to the rules of the road.
I assume in the secone example you're referring to post #106. If you have any regard for accuracy I invite you to reread it and correct the assertion above to reflect what I actually said. You've made an important omission, and without it the paraphrase above doesn't accurately reflect my route choice considerations.
Bekologist
08-05-07, 08:04 AM
I'm not particularly fond of narrow two lane roads with high traffic speeds and steady traffic volume. I decide whether to take those routes based on the efficiency of the alternatives. I'm capable of riding on them, and often do, but it's not usually pleasant. I will reroute to make the experience better if I have the time.
okay, larry.
sounds like you do agree with my point of view. vehicular cyclists can choose a more mellow route.
larryfeltonj
08-05-07, 08:56 AM
okay, larry.
sounds like you do agree with my point of view. vehicular cyclists can choose a more mellow route.
Would you care to point out clearly the manner in which you misquoted me, for the benefit of people who aren't following this convoluted thread, or should I do it? I don't really mind.
Bekologist
08-05-07, 09:10 AM
misquoted you? hardly.
vehicular cyclists do not have to tkae the most direct route regardless of traffic conditions. vehicular cyclists can choose a more mellow route.
I'm not particularly fond of narrow two lane roads with high traffic speeds and steady traffic volume. I decide whether to take those routes based on the efficiency of the alternatives. I'm capable of riding on them, and often do, but it's not usually pleasant. I will reroute to make the experience better if I have the time.
correct, larry. you've repeatedly agreed with that. what's the problem?
larryfeltonj
08-05-07, 09:23 AM
misquoted you? hardly.
vehicular cyclists do not have to tkae the most direct route regardless of traffic conditions. vehicular cyclists can choose a more mellow route.
correct, larry. you've repeatedly agreed with that. what's the problem?
Alright. I was offering you a chance to correct an error that might make some people question the integrity of your argument. You chose not to make that correction, so I'll do it.
You stated that I am
"not fond of high speed, high volume narrow laned arterials, and choose a different route if you
have time"
What I said was
"I'm not particularly fond of narrow two lane roads with high traffic speeds and steady traffic volume. I decide whether to take those routes based on the efficiency of the alternatives"
At this point I'm just going to state that I was clearly referring to two lane roads for the benefit of other readers who may find this mobius strip of a thread hard to follow.
LittleBigMan
08-05-07, 06:25 PM
so, vehicular cyclists sometimes avoid certain routes?
interesting concession from the vc camp.....
:lol:
No, so-called, "vehicular cyclists" can often choose whatever route they want, whether it has bike lanes or not.
Isn't that the way you ride, bekologist?
Oh, nevermind, you're barking up an empty tree anyway. :p
CB HI
08-05-07, 09:51 PM
:lol:
Oh, nevermind, you're barking up an empty tree anyway. :p:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao: That pretty much sums up most of his post!
Bekologist
08-06-07, 07:56 PM
not following along, CBHI??
hmmm, larry, i belive you said, and I quoted you a couple of times, you said,
I'm not particularly fond of narrow two lane roads with high traffic speeds and steady traffic volume. I decide whether to take those routes based on the efficiency of the alternatives. I'm capable of riding on them, and often do, but it's not usually pleasant. I will reroute to make the experience better if I have the time.
once again. sorry to flog a dead horse, but it seems like all vehicular cyclists are not comfortable riding all routes. Larry, you state yourself certain types of roads/traffic ARE NOT PLEASANT and you reroute if you have time, presumably to increase the pleasantries of the route.
so, why is it okay for ardent, blowhard VC to feel some road conditions are not pleasant, yet not okay for the unwashed heathens of the non EC card carrying bikers to feel the same way???
a truism about "VC" is this: knowledge of vehicular operation of a bicycle does NOT automatically make all bicyclists comfortable on all roads all the time. Sometimes enough that, like larry, they will choose alternate routes.
larryfeltonj
08-06-07, 08:04 PM
not following along, CBHI??
hmmm, larry, i belive you said, and I quoted you a couple of times, you said,
once again. sorry to flog a dead horse, but it seems like all vehicular cyclists are not comfortable riding all routes. Larry, you state yourself certain types of roads/traffic ARE NOT PLEASANT and you reroute if you have time, presumably to increase the pleasantries of the route.
so, why is it okay for ardent, blowhard VC to feel some road conditions are not pleasant, yet not okay for the unwashed heathens of the non EC card carrying bikers to feel the same way???
a truism about "VC" is this: knowledge of vehicular operation of a bicycle does NOT automatically make all bicyclists comfortable on all roads all the time. Sometimes enough that, like larry, they will choose alternate routes.
All right. Fair enough. As an ardent blowhard VC I invite you to take any route you desire. In fact I encourage you to do so. On the other hand if you are an unwashed heathen I'd also encourage you to shower after riding, if only for the sake of your fellow heathens.
Bekologist
08-06-07, 08:12 PM
... did 170 miles in the last two days, camped out, got home a few hours ago, and haven't showered yet :eek:
larryfeltonj
08-06-07, 08:17 PM
... did 170 miles in the last two days, camped out, got home a few hours ago, and haven't showered yet :eek:
The Hood Canal trip you mentioned? Is it part of the Hood River? I mostly know the Hood River from the Woody Guthrie song "Roll on Columbia". "The Yakima, Snake and the Hood River too ...".
I hope it was enjoyable.
LittleBigMan
08-06-07, 08:50 PM
... did 170 miles in the last two days, camped out, got home a few hours ago, and haven't showered yet :eek:
Are you bragging, or complaining? :D
Good thing you're not an elitist.
That kind of talk could intimidate lesser folk.
;)
LittleBigMan
08-06-07, 08:58 PM
once again. sorry to flog a dead horse, but it seems like all vehicular cyclists are not comfortable riding all routes.
When that hoss starts a-stankin' too fierce, and if'n there's no one else around, you can quit a-beatin' it and go home, young fella.
:)
Bekologist
08-06-07, 09:10 PM
Are you bragging, or complaining? (just got out of the shower)
quite a pleasant trip, thank you. great views, great pizza, a little rain this morning, but not bad at all.
Who you callin' a young fella, old man? I know the difference between a dead horse and a jackass, LBM.
and also how to gore a sacred cow.
knowledge of how to ride a bike in the vehicular manner does NOT equal all road comfortability, to the point some "VC" will choose alternate routes.
CB HI
08-06-07, 11:37 PM
not following along, CBHI??
:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao: That pretty much sums up your understanding of most post by others!
Bekologist
08-06-07, 11:48 PM
let me reiterate my thoughts for you, CBHI.
do vehicular cyclists always chose the most direct route, or does choosing a more pleasant, lower traffic route reflect the 'cyclist inferiority complex?'
I'm concerned vehicular cyclists, in choosing a more pleasant route, might be suffering from the 'cyclist inferiority complex'.
and, additionally, and the subject of another thread..... 'knowledge of how to ride a bike in the vehicular manner does NOT equal all road comfortability, to the point some "VC" will choose alternate routes.'
CB HI
08-07-07, 01:09 AM
Is the Bek dog chasing his tail again?
Bekologist
08-07-07, 07:05 AM
one more time, CBHI, because you obviously have little of value to add to this discussion and instead seem intent on insulting me.....
do vehicular cyclists always chose the most direct route, or does choosing a more pleasant, lower traffic route reflect the 'cyclist inferiority complex?'
I'm concerned vehicular cyclists, in choosing a more pleasant route, might be suffering from the 'cyclist inferiority complex'.
and, additionally, and the subject of another thread..... 'knowledge of how to ride a bike in the vehicular manner does NOT equal all road comfortability, to the point some "VC" will choose alternate routes.'
joejack951
08-07-07, 09:31 AM
do vehicular cyclists always chose the most direct route, or does choosing a more pleasant, lower traffic route reflect the 'cyclist inferiority complex?'
I'm concerned vehicular cyclists, in choosing a more pleasant route, might be suffering from the 'cyclist inferiority complex'.
One more time...choosing a more pleasant, lower traffic route does not necessarily reflect the CIC. If a cyclist chooses a route based on his perception that choosing another route would result in being run over by faster traffic or because he feels that cyclists do not belong on those other roads even though that other route would perform better for him or allow him to reach destinations that are otherwise inaccessible, then that does reflect the CIC.
Now, I'm sure there are cyclists who just don't give a fluck about being able to reach all destinations or about how long a trip takes or how inconvenient their pleasant route is that don't exhibit the CIC but I believe those cyclists are pretty rare and more likely non-existant. Most cyclists who only ride pleasant routes will be the first to tell you that you have a death wish for riding the more heavily trafficked, higher speed roads or any road with a narrow outside lane.
rando
08-07-07, 01:19 PM
One more time...choosing a more pleasant, lower traffic route does not necessarily reflect the CIC. If a cyclist chooses a route based on his perception that choosing another route would result in being run over by faster traffic or because he feels that cyclists do not belong on those other roads even though that other route would perform better for him or allow him to reach destinations that are otherwise inaccessible, then that does reflect the CIC.
Now, I'm sure there are cyclists who just don't give a fluck about being able to reach all destinations or about how long a trip takes or how inconvenient their pleasant route is that don't exhibit the CIC but I believe those cyclists are pretty rare and more likely non-existant. Most cyclists who only ride pleasant routes will be the first to tell you that you have a death wish for riding the more heavily trafficked, higher speed roads or any road with a narrow outside lane.
I'd see that as a preference to be understood or accomodated, not a syndrome you have to be cured of..
The Human Car
08-07-07, 01:27 PM
I'd see that as a preference to be understood or accomodated, not a syndrome you have to be cured of..
I would write that as a preference to be understood and accommodated but otherwise a good point.
sbhikes
08-07-07, 02:06 PM
So if you avoid certain routes because you fear being run over, you have a cyclist inferiority complex. Hmm. I just thought that showed simple common sense.
Perhaps Darwin will take care of some folks for us.
LittleBigMan
08-07-07, 06:32 PM
(just got out of the shower)
quite a pleasant trip, thank you. great views, great pizza, a little rain this morning, but not bad at all.
Who you callin' a young fella, old man? I know the difference between a dead horse and a jackass, LBM.
Whoa, there, young fella! You better step back into that cool shower!
:D
But seriously, I'm sure nobody here doesn't realize you are an experienced cyclist. After all, you keep providing the proof. ;)
I gave up pizza long ago. Too much salt. I prefer healthier foods, in my advanced years (please pass the Geritol, I'm too tired to get up.)
:lol:
LittleBigMan
08-07-07, 07:03 PM
So if you avoid certain routes because you fear being run over, you have a cyclist inferiority complex. Hmm. I just thought that showed simple common sense.
Perhaps Darwin will take care of some folks for us.
Charles Darwin's dead. :eek:
But now you sound like the fearmongering co-workers who kept warning me about the dangers of bike commuting. Now, many years later, I'm fit and energetic (can dash up flights of stairs with my bike without even drawing a hasty breath through my mouth) while some of them are wondering how to deal with an additional 50 pounds, even though some of them are 10 or more years younger. Now that's bicycle advocacy.
Anyway, I don't avoid certain routes because I fear being run over. I'm never afraid of that. I do care about holding up traffic, but that's because I care about fellow road users. (Even so, I won't give up my "sweet spot" on the pavement unless I see timid cager behind me is afraid to pass, but that's very rare.)
I don't care what politically-minded critics think (why should I, I stood up to my coworkers, didn't I?) And I choose whatever route suits me, because I can.
For example: is it hot? Choose shade and ride slowly (smart.) Is there a traffic jam? Choose a faster route. Is the most direct route faster and easier? Take it.
It's common sense, not a political agenda (though I do care about my political statement, riding a bike wherever I want, whenever it suits me.)
The best political statement to motorists is to ride your bike where they think you don't belong, but deep down they know the law is on your side.
I don't think everyone should do it. Just those who feel comfortable.
LittleBigMan
08-07-07, 07:20 PM
I'd see that [choosing another route for fear of being run over] as a preference to be understood or accomodated, not a syndrome you have to be cured of..
I sympathize with your point of view, having been in that situation.
There are indeed solutions to helping people overcome their fear of traffic (because that fear keeps people from experiencing the joys of cycling, and that's a serious problem in our auto-centric society.)
One approach is to give people alternative routes. Another is to give people skills to ride existing routes, with motorist education. The third is to accomodate both kinds of cycling.
Given the reality of our world, I have to say that I believe it will have to be both.
I would like to see both kinds of cycling accomodated. I don't see a problem with scaling cycling accomodations to the type of cyclist, as long as both are fully accomodated.
The only problem with accomodating both kinds of cycling lies in the autocentric society in which we live. Can we have both?
My humanity tells me we can, but I wonder if the autocentric powers-that-be will ever understand that a bicycle can coexist on the same pavement with automobiles. I know I can coexist, I do it everyday.
But most motorists often think I don't belong. I know because I hear them talk (yet they treat me with care on the road.)
Oh, I'd be pleased as punch with both. More options, you know! More cyclists everywhere, path and street.
But can it happen? Can we have both?
The Human Car
08-07-07, 07:42 PM
Charles Darwin's dead. :eek:
But now you sound like the fearmongering co-workers ...
This is half the problem, how to word things so you don't error on ether side.
The Human Car
08-07-07, 07:51 PM
Woops double post.
tallard
08-17-07, 02:06 AM
So if you avoid certain routes because you fear being run over, you have a cyclist inferiority complex. Hmm. I just thought that showed simple common sense.
You hit the nail on the head again, the terminology here is very important. IF I choose a mellower route, it's NOT because I FEAR. It'll be because there is either a road obstacle or detour or I am sore or I want to ride abreast on side streets and chat with my fellow rider (in a NON VC way), BUT NOT FEAR.
Some posters are insisting that the "choice" of a mellower route evolves from the same brain process in VCers and non... I propose it is a different thought process entirely.
If a VCer is riding along a heavy fast artery, and riding fast and heavy himself, the choice of a mellower route is CHOICE, for whatever other reasons BUT fear.
When fear is your deciding factor on route selection, then being on a mellower route is not the result of a CHOICE, it has then become your only possible emotional imperative (my grasp of English is failing me here but do try and grasp my meaning). I think at a very elemental level, if you're choosing based on fear, you're not "choosing", you're "forced" by your own mental imperatives to use a perceived safer route.
FEAR is not a part of my daily or weekly or monthly thought processes.
joejack951
08-17-07, 04:44 AM
You hit the nail on the head again, the terminology here is very important. IF I choose a mellower route, it's NOT because I FEAR. It'll be because there is either a road obstacle or detour or I am sore or I want to ride abreast on side streets and chat with my fellow rider (in a NON VC way), BUT NOT FEAR.
There's nothing "non-VC" about riding abreast on side streets, unless, of course, you are riding against traffic, running red lights, riding at night without lights, etc.
tallard
08-17-07, 08:25 AM
There's nothing "non-VC" about riding abreast on side streets, unless, of course, you are riding against traffic, running red lights, riding at night without lights, etc.
:eek: I would NEVER do anything like that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! especially not when chatting away with my buddies... or when there's not a single car for several intersections... :D
Bekologist
08-17-07, 08:56 AM
tallard, joe, if you think understanding vehicular cycling makes that cyclist comfortable on all roads at all times, you're deluding yourselves.
tallard, if you think understanding vehicular cycling eliminates fear in bicyclists, you're, again, deluding yourself.
joejack951
08-17-07, 09:10 AM
tallard, joe, if you think understanding vehicular cycling makes that cyclist comfortable on all roads at all times, you're deluding yourselves.
I agree that understanding vehicular cycling doesn't make a cyclist comfortable on all roads at all times. I would also add, which you seem to want to ignore, that a cyclist who doesn't understand vehicular cycling will be much more limited in their choices of roads and thus places that they can cycle than a cyclist who does have that understanding. A cyclist who does not understand vehicular cycling will feel very out of place on any road where they feel as though they are "in the way" of traffic which encompasses the large majority of roads in certain locales, including mine.
Bekologist
08-17-07, 09:16 AM
I'm not ignoring that fact, joe. however, I am dubunking the illusion that knowledge of VC makes all roads comfortable for all riders that understand VC.
tallard
08-17-07, 09:23 AM
I'm not ignoring that fact, joe. however, I am dubunking the illusion that knowledge of VC makes all roads comfortable for all riders that understand VC.
You really like to use the word comfortable. Funny, sometimes my butt's a little uncomfortable, that doesn't affect my riding decision, sometimes the cold makes me a little less than "confortable", seems to me that comfort is a secondary matter.
Bekologist
08-17-07, 10:15 AM
i'm so proud for you, tallard.
you are NOT every bicyclist that understands how to ride according to the rules of the road. your experience and stalwart riding abilities do NOT equate to all other riders' experiences or route choices.
tallard
08-17-07, 10:24 AM
i'm so proud for you, tallard.
Why than you :o
your experience and stalwart riding abilities do NOT equate to all other riders' experiences or route choices.
Aha, but if they practiced negotiating with motorists a little more we WOULD be equal ;) "practice makes perfect"
Bekologist
08-17-07, 10:51 AM
sorry, tallard, but vehicular bicyclists will and do choose more relaxing, comfortable routes if road conditions make them uncomfortable.
it appears this is more common than the chestbeatingly proud VC prefer to admit -
that road conditions can still make people that understand how to ride according to the rules of the road unplatable to the extent they choose alternate routes.
tallard
08-17-07, 11:22 AM
sorry, tallard, but vehicular bicyclists will and do choose more relaxing, comfortable routes if road conditions make them uncomfortable.
it appears this is more common than the chestbeatingly proud VC prefer to admit -
that road conditions can still make people that understand how to ride according to the rules of the road unplatable to the extent they choose alternate routes.
Back to the comfort zone again, oh well, see ya later :rolleyes:
Bekologist
08-17-07, 11:25 AM
yep. some riders that understand VC will find some road conditions so daunting they choose alternate routes.
knowledge of VC does not equate with all road ability.
rando
08-17-07, 01:26 PM
sorry, the proud, the few, the VC, I prefer to ride my bike on my side street route which is more comfortable for me than the death race 3000 arterial I would drive on to work. call me what you will...
The Human Car
08-17-07, 02:37 PM
sorry, the proud, the few, the VC, I prefer to ride my bike on my side street route which is more comfortable for me than the death race 3000 arterial I would drive on to work. call me what you will...
The difference between what I road on as a kid (Tempe, AZ) and were I am now, you really have to wonder if the road designers were on drugs.
http://todd.cleverchimp.com/blog/images/webgrids.gif
http://todd.cleverchimp.com/blog/?p=128