Foo - Underage Drinking

Your thoughts?

I think that the age limit in the US is bull. By prohibiting it, teens want to do it. Same thing with smoking.

European countries fair perfectly fine without age limits on drinking. What makes US politicians believe that we're incapable of handling alcohol? Of course, there will always be someone who gets killed due to doing something stupid and alcohol related. But I don't believe that those people should call for laws. It'll still happen with the laws in place.

Ridiculous, I say.



EDIT- I don't smoke!

way past your bedtime

Point taken. Yet, I can't sleep.

I have insomnia. But why are you up? Another fellow insomniac? :)

Probably about to either get on my trainer or go for a bike ride....

Focus on age limits and bans and taxes and all that crap is the wrong idea.

From the perspective of almost every of country on the planet, age limits of 21 are absolutely ridiculous. The problem is the culture, not the petty laws that try to control it.

I heart beer.

We call it Wheat Soda.

:beer:
I heart beer.

Focus on age limits and bans and taxes and all that crap is the wrong idea.

From the perspective of almost every of country on the planet, age limits of 21 are absolutely ridiculous. The problem is the culture, not the petty laws that try to control it.

Correct - most of my European friends know how to drink - i.e. not for the purpose of getting smashed. It is just a part of life. Having one or two glasses of wine with dinner or a beer after mowing the grass - cool, just a beverage with the additional benefit of relaxing you.

Compare that to our custom of introducing a new drink to beer with a keg... :rolleyes:

Oh, bluntly put - if you actually want to smoke after what we know about it - you aren't mature enough to handle anything that will intoxicate you. "Let me put this hazardous material in my mouth which will rot my lungs and almost certainly addict me which will cause many people to avoid me like the plaque (due to alergies and the stench) just so I can look cool."

The very fact that there is underage smoking might be a reason why adults think they need to make laws about other substances. Tell me - what motivation is there for wanting to start smoking? Who doesn't know what it will do to you and how many people around them after a few years are desperately trying to stop?

Honest - I just don't get it. I would much prefer someone to walk by with a joint than a cigarette. The former actually makes some sense.

I know a guy with almost no liver since he smashed the hell out of it while he was young. I agree though, drinking ages are petty bull$%*t. If a kid can go and subject himself to McDonalds "food" without restriction, it's hard to see a reason against booze.

Around here, it's forbidden fruit basically. When I was in High School, people would bring whiskey to school in pop bottles, and pass it out at lunch. In a different culture where alcohol isn't so taboo, I would doubt that such stupid things would be as common.

Is good.

/thread

Your thoughts?

I think that the age limit in the US is bull. By prohibiting it, teens want to do it. Same thing with smoking.



Sure some teens are allured by the forbidden fruit, however lowering the age limit will only add to the number of drinking teens as those currently drinking will continue to do so and those who want to experiment now will, openly and legally. As for comparing smoking and drinking, a teens smoking habit has a snowballs chance in h*** of killing me, his drinking habit however . . .

Highway statistics over the last 30 years support the passage of a national drinking age, the reason it was raised in the first place. MADD is the orginization responsible for putting this issue on the front burner back in the late 70's and early 80's. The three extra years seems like an enternity however on the ledger sheet is a small price to pay for the lives saved.

We teach people from a young age "DO NOT DRINK UNTIL YOU ARE 21", and that's it. Naturally, people don't learn HOW to drink. They'll just buy their bud and go at it. I saw this every day in high school. Wine is in my heritage, my father is French. I've been given wine since I was probably 10 or 12. But, I now have no desire to get drunk. I think I know how to drink, and I thank my parents for that.
The key is education. Having the drinking age what it is, though impossible to enforce, isn't awful. It's that you need to educate underage people about it, and don't cast alcohol in a negative light.

Its stupid.

We teach people from a young age "DO NOT DRINK UNTIL YOU ARE 21", and that's it. Naturally, people don't learn HOW to drink. They'll just buy their bud and go at it. I saw this every day in high school. Wine is in my heritage, my father is French. I've been given wine since I was probably 10 or 12. But, I now have no desire to get drunk. I think I know how to drink, and I thank my parents for that.
The key is education. Having the drinking age what it is, though impossible to enforce, isn't awful. It's that you need to educate underage people about it, and don't cast alcohol in a negative light.

One of the reasons the US is so conservative about alcohol is because we have a dependable water supply that's pretty uniformly safe, believe it or not. We weren't forced to add alcohol to it to prevent parasitic and waterborn illness.

In the 1600's, the average beer intake among the Pilgrims was a gallon a day, regardless of age group and sailors made grog by mixing rum in the water because the barrel stored water got foul with algae growth. Wine was used in France historically as a water substitute or additive for similar reasons, medieval water supplies weren't necessarily the cleanest or most dependable.

"The dipsomaniac and the abstainer make the same mistake: they both regard wine as a drug and not a drink."
- G.K. Chesterton.

Oh, bluntly put - if you actually want to smoke after what we know about it - you aren't mature enough to handle anything that will intoxicate you. "Let me put this hazardous material in my mouth which will rot my lungs and almost certainly addict me which will cause many people to avoid me like the plaque (due to alergies and the stench) just so I can look cool."

The very fact that there is underage smoking might be a reason why adults think they need to make laws about other substances. Tell me - what motivation is there for wanting to start smoking? Who doesn't know what it will do to you and how many people around them after a few years are desperately trying to stop?

Honest - I just don't get it. I would much prefer someone to walk by with a joint than a cigarette. The former actually makes some sense.
I never smoked to look cool. That's an exercise in futility.

It's a common thing to say about the reason young people do it - to look cool. I think it's patronizing. If anything it would be peer pressure, the forbidden fruit syndrome, and an urge to be "grown up".

I saw some kid walk by the other day, must have been 12, lighting up a ***. Sad.

But this, drinking, the neurotic fetishization of sexuality (I mean WOW, violence and bad language galore, but as much as a nipple appears and a movie's rated 18 - talk about schizo), all that stuff - it's just a relfection of the lack of social cohesion of modern society, combined with the cult of individualism that puts blocks on enforcement of social norms. And it's also simply a reflection of the example we as adults set. It's so easy and fun to blame kids for their stupidity, but all they're doing is responding to the environment that we created for them.

As for putting hazardous materials in one's mouth, you seem to have an exaggerated beef with smoking as opposed to the myriad other silly things we choose to do to ourselves. But, I agree with you that it does at least make sense to see someone walking down the street with a J than a ciggie.

The problem with attitudes to drinking is just as bad in England imho. What a world of difference when you cross over to the mainland.

Yep the drinking is just because it makes no sense.

You can operate a car by then, at 17 (with parental consent) you can go to war and die.....but you can't have a beer? It's just absurd, and when has anyone ever followed an absurd law by choice?

Now, the problem with teens ODing on alcohol is due to the illegality....since it's hard to get, when teens get hold of it, they use it all, before someone has a chance to find it and take it away.

I think a graudated system would work best....beer/wine at 18, hard liquor at 21. Some sates apprently have laws like that in place, but I think it should be a national thing.

After I turned 21, I stopped drinking a lot less and buying a lot more (for other people) :):rolleyes:

I liked the way the drinking age was handled in Germany when I went there in high school. Beer and wine at 16 and hard liquor at 18. Thing is, it wasn't as simple as that. If a parent ordered a small glass of beer or wine for a 13 year old when the family went out to dinner, the server brought it without question. Likewise, if a 16 year old wanted a second beer and a parent wasn't around, they server wouldn't hesitate to ask the kid something like, "Aren't you too young for that much beer? You shouldn't have a second one if you're not eating dinner. What would your parents say?" The kid would back down and there would be no more beer.

This system works because parents are heavily involved with the "alcohol education" of their children. It also relies on non-related adults to involve themselves with the alcohol choices of young people, and the teenagers accepting the authority of those adults. Right now in North America, you've got a whole population of parents and other adults who are, IMO, unprepared to take that kind of role on. So, how do you get the adults ready to handle that kind of responsibility?

Oh, and there was one other huge difference that I observed: young people between 16 and 18 were not driving cars.

Yep the drinking is just because it makes no sense.

You can operate a car by then, at 17 (with parental consent) you can go to war and die.....but you can't have a beer? It's just absurd, and when has anyone ever followed an absurd law by choice?

Now, the problem with teens ODing on alcohol is due to the illegality....since it's hard to get, when teens get hold of it, they use it all, before someone has a chance to find it and take it away.

I think a graudated system would work best....beer/wine at 18, hard liquor at 21. Some sates apprently have laws like that in place, but I think it should be a national thing.

Actually, some states HAD laws like that, but had to adopt the 21 standard or lose Federal Highway Funding.

Sure some teens are allured by the forbidden fruit, however lowering the age limit will only add to the number of drinking teens as those currently drinking will continue to do so and those who want to experiment now will, openly and legally. As for comparing smoking and drinking, a teens smoking habit has a snowballs chance in h*** of killing me, his drinking habit however . . .

Highway statistics over the last 30 years support the passage of a national drinking age, the reason it was raised in the first place. MADD is the orginization responsible for putting this issue on the front burner back in the late 70's and early 80's. The three extra years seems like an enternity however on the ledger sheet is a small price to pay for the lives saved.

How many 18 year olds wait until they are 21 to drink? I sure didn't and I doubt they do now. Check out any college campus and you will see what I mean. If MADD really wants to eliminate drunk driving they should differentiate between drinking and drinking and driving. The best way to do this is to lower penalties for underage drinking and increase penalties for drinking and driving.

Focus on age limits and bans and taxes and all that crap is the wrong idea.

From the perspective of almost every of country on the planet, age limits of 21 are absolutely ridiculous. The problem is the culture, not the petty laws that try to control it.


Im only against it because an 18 year olds brain is still physically forming.
Alcohol can disrupt the process. Do we really need more republiklans ?
But, that being said, there is no American 18 year old mature enuff to drink.
Sorry. Not one. It is a culture thing. American youth are subliminally trained
starting at birth to associate ridiculously stoopid, alcohol fueled behaviour
with a good time. I was a product of Americas 'Mature Drinking' experiment
that happened in the 70's. 'Learning' to drink from your parents (most likely
alky's, too) was the norm. I wrecked a car at 16, lost all my front toofus's
and broke all my ribs, damaged my heart and fractured my skull. Other friends
who were part of the 70's experience didnt get off as easily. Thier funerals
never got easier. Here, in rich, bourgeous West Palm Beach, the rich people
always have keggers on thier private estates for thier little Chad, Biffs and Buffies.
Later that evening they are ID'ing splattered guts on Rt.1.
Sorry, America as a whole isnt competent enuff to be training our kidlettes
proper alcohol technique.

Beer

Oh, bluntly put - if you actually want to smoke after what we know about it - you aren't mature enough to handle anything that will intoxicate you. "Let me put this hazardous material in my mouth which will rot my lungs and almost certainly addict me which will cause many people to avoid me like the plaque (due to alergies and the stench) just so I can look cool."

The very fact that there is underage smoking might be a reason why adults think they need to make laws about other substances. Tell me - what motivation is there for wanting to start smoking? Who doesn't know what it will do to you and how many people around them after a few years are desperately trying to stop?

Honest - I just don't get it. I would much prefer someone to walk by with a joint than a cigarette. The former actually makes some sense.

I don't smoke. =/

Drinking, you can moderate. With smoking- Lungs messed up.


What about sex without protection? Shouldn't that be illegal? What happens when someone gets HIV?

I think everything should be legal when you turn 18.

This system works because parents are heavily involved with the "alcohol education" of their children. It also relies on non-related adults to involve themselves with the alcohol choices of young people, and the teenagers accepting the authority of those adults. Right now in North America, you've got a whole population of parents and other adults who are, IMO, unprepared to take that kind of role on. So, how do you get the adults ready to handle that kind of responsibility?[/B]
DING DING DING! That's what I was getting at - the lack of ability for people to enforce any kind of societal norms because of the fetishization of the culture of individuality. Nobody has the right to admonish anyone else on their behaviour anymore, and as a result you have kids running around with no fear of anyone telling them off.

In reference to my earlier post, that 12 year old kid smoking a *** was a case in point. What am I going to do, walk out and tell him off? He'll just tell me to eff off, and even if I were to take the trouble to find his parents and inform them I'm sure they'd say the same to me.

In reference to my earlier post, that 12 year old kid smoking a *** was a case in point. What am I going to do, walk out and tell him off? He'll just tell me to eff off, and even if I were to take the trouble to find his parents and inform them I'm sure they'd say the same to me.


We call cigs "****" now?

We call cigs "****" now?

They do in the UK.

How many 18 year olds wait until they are 21 to drink? I sure didn't and I doubt they do now. Check out any college campus and you will see what I mean. If MADD really wants to eliminate drunk driving they should differentiate between drinking and drinking and driving. The best way to do this is to lower penalties for underage drinking and increase penalties for drinking and driving.

Plenty enough are and who knows how many more will join them if the age were lowered, but maybe the age limits are keeping some of them off the road. Lower the limits and how many will be back on the road?
You bring up an interesting compromise, a rewrite of current law which would allow 18-21 year olds to drink and at the same time keep them off the road.

One of the problems with our system is that some times a sledgehammer is often used to solve a problem when a rubber mallet would do a better job.

Then there's the whole culture change that would be necessary. How do you legislate that?

People can kill themselves off smoking if they want - not my business, but I will think they are idiots. If someone wants a beer or many other things, I don't think that way.

There isn't a safe level of cigs - but I wouldn't outlaw them. Adding something else to a failed drug war would probably be even stupider than smoking.

Part of the question is "At what age should a child be allowed to make his/her own decisions regarding things which have a potential of screwing up their life?"

European countries fair perfectly fine without age limits on drinking.!

While I disagree with the US approach to alcohol (21 and over only), this statement is overly broad. The UK alone reckons that binge drinking amongst 18-25 year olds is a $40billion dollar a year problem.


Alcohol misuse costs £20bn per year in health care and lost earnings
Six million people binge drink each week
47% of victims of violent crime thought their attacker was drunk
Alcohol is behind 40% of A&E admissions


The grass isn't always greener on the other side...

Drinking age is 18 here.
But the problem is, it's so ingrained in the culture that teenagers drink. I'd say the average age in my town when somebody gets drunk for the first time is 13 or 14. I don't agree with this at all. But it's just what people do for recreation on the weekends - go to a party and drink.
It might just be because I live a rural Alberta town, though.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be offensive but the US is screwed up in many ways, and the alcohol laws and attitudes is a good example.
In the UK growing up we had small nips of alcohol at Christmas and the like from, 7 or 8 years(?) on.

I don't know what you can, or should do to make it right but I tell ya, its getting worse. I would love to meet some of the people on this list but I am NOT, crossing the border until ( unless? ) a few things change.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be offensive but the US is screwed up in many ways, and the alcohol laws and attitudes is a good example.
In the UK growing up we had small nips of alcohol at Christmas and the like from, 7 or 8 years(?) on.

I don't know what you can, or should do to make it right but I tell ya, its getting worse. I would love to meet some of the people on this list but I am NOT, crossing the border until ( unless? ) a few things change.

lol, so you're going to let a few idiosyncrasies keep you away?

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be offensive but the US is screwed up in many ways, and the alcohol laws and attitudes is a good example.
In the UK growing up we had small nips of alcohol at Christmas and the like from, 7 or 8 years(?) on.

I don't know what you can, or should do to make it right but I tell ya, its getting worse. I would love to meet some of the people on this list but I am NOT, crossing the border until ( unless? ) a few things change.
That's really too bad, because even though we have our issues, the US is also one of the most diverse places on the planet!

While I disagree with the US approach to alcohol (21 and over only), this statement is overly broad. The UK alone reckons that binge drinking amongst 18-25 year olds is a $40billion dollar a year problem.


Alcohol misuse costs £20bn per year in health care and lost earnings
Six million people binge drink each week
47% of victims of violent crime thought their attacker was drunk
Alcohol is behind 40% of A&E admissions


The grass isn't always greener on the other side...

After reading the post about Europe "fairing well" I did a little research and it appears that Europe does in fact have a problem although it manifests itself a little differently. This is partly due to the way Europe reports its statistics versus the way US does and partly cultural differences. In some ways it appears Europe may be where the States was 30 years ago.

Regardless of personal opinion and cultural differences the statisics in the USA support it's current policy as there has been a significant decrease of alcohol abuse in this age group since the 70's and alcohol related deaths and that was the purpose of the legislation.

lol, so you're going to let a few idiosyncrasies keep you away?

Idiosyncrasies, no. Some jackbooted thug demanding my fingerprints, yes.

Regardless of personal opinion and cultural differences the statisics in the USA support it's current policy as there has been a significant decrease of alcohol abuse in this age since the 70's and alcohol related deaths and that was the purpose of the legislation.

hows the drug problem fairing?

hows the drug problem fairing?

By some standards not well, however don't fool yourself. The US didn't invent drug abuse. The cultivation and use of drugs is well documented in both European and Oriental cultures long before the US was discovered. However it's possible we may have raised it to an art form.

The only thing worse than Underage Drinking is Under-drunk Aging:

The older I get the less free time I'm finding to be able to go out and kick the gong. Even having a beer or two has become ridiculously infrequent, what with this absurd cycling thing I seem to be obsessed with. Man, 15 years ago I was putting away a case of IPA a week...and that was just while doing homework in grad school, doesn't include the weekend bar hopping. Now that I'm nearing old fogey-dom though, I'm lucky if I can make time for one beer a week. Sucks!

After reading the post about Europe "fairing well" I did a little research and it appears that Europe does in fact have a problem although it manifests itself a little differently. This is partly due to the way Europe reports its statistics versus the way US does and partly cultural differences. In some ways it appears Europe may be where the States was 30 years ago.

Regardless of personal opinion and cultural differences the statisics in the USA support it's current policy as there has been a significant decrease of alcohol abuse in this age group since the 70's and alcohol related deaths and that was the purpose of the legislation.

I wanted to clarify that the statistics didn't start improving until after the passing of the federal requirment for raising the age to 21.

Idiosyncrasies, no. Some jackbooted thug demanding my fingerprints, yes.

too bloody right, mate :beer:

I liked the way the drinking age was handled in Germany when I went there in high school. Beer and wine at 16 and hard liquor at 18. Thing is, it wasn't as simple as that. If a parent ordered a small glass of beer or wine for a 13 year old when the family went out to dinner, the server brought it without question. Likewise, if a 16 year old wanted a second beer and a parent wasn't around, they server wouldn't hesitate to ask the kid something like, "Aren't you too young for that much beer? You shouldn't have a second one if you're not eating dinner. What would your parents say?" The kid would back down and there would be no more beer.

This system works because parents are heavily involved with the "alcohol education" of their children. It also relies on non-related adults to involve themselves with the alcohol choices of young people, and the teenagers accepting the authority of those adults. Right now in North America, you've got a whole population of parents and other adults who are, IMO, unprepared to take that kind of role on. So, how do you get the adults ready to handle that kind of responsibility?

Oh, and there was one other huge difference that I observed: young people between 16 and 18 were not driving cars.

I agree 100%. However things seem to be changing in Germany. More problem drinking. Perhaps linked to larger more impersonal urban areas. The huge point is adults taking responsibility and helping guide future adults to maturity in this and other areas. I had beer regularly at 12 or 13 (if not before). A sip from mt fathers beer. By 16 I had a liquor cabinet that few adults could match. (I got into cooking, The Galloping gourmet. most of his stuff had some alcohol in it). Not forbidden fruit. No one day it is suddenly legal with no restriction. Growing into it. No problems.

BTW mainly because of Rugby I've kept in contact with current U.S. College students and I've seen things get worse and worse over the years as rules are put in place to prevent drinking and mainly serve to drive it underground and prevent a reasonable transition to handling things. (To be fair while also providing legal protection for the school).

ugh. food with alcohol in it. a good way to destroy two wonderful things. not for me man.

Idiosyncrasies, no. Some jackbooted thug demanding my fingerprints, yes.

Who is demanding your fingerprint? Mine has never been demanded. I have family members who come and visit from France, they've not been asked for a fingerprint for any reason. I don't even think my dad had to give his finger print when he did his naturalization process to become a citizen.

By some standards not well, however don't fool yourself. The US didn't invent drug abuse. The cultivation and use of drugs is well documented in both European and Oriental cultures long before the US was discovered. However it's possible we may have raised it to an art form.


Don't worry, I am not fooling myself. Just stating a simple fact. It would be curious to see how the decline in alcohol abuse would be compared with the rise in both simple drugs (pot, shrooms), to more addictive (coke etc) to the downright dangerous (anything designer)...If there is an inversed effect or not.

The reason I kept it simple was quite simply, kids are more f'ed today then when I was a kid. I know kids are doing drugs today, I can see it in their manerisms and know it by the number of parties. When I was a kid, I got drunk, heard rumours there was something called acid (oooo ahhhhh) and smoked a little pot. Today kids don't even refer to alcohol (or pot) when discussing their party favours. Kind of scary.

BTW mainly because of Rugby I've kept in contact with current U.S. College students and I've seen things get worse and worse over the years as rules are put in place to prevent drinking and mainly serve to drive it underground and prevent a reasonable transition to handling things. (To be fair while also providing legal protection for the school).

Its a lot easier to drop an E then drink a 26 with your buds. It takes work to drink underage...

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be offensive but the US is screwed up in many ways, and the alcohol laws and attitudes is a good example.
In the UK growing up we had small nips of alcohol at Christmas and the like from, 7 or 8 years(?) on.

I don't know what you can, or should do to make it right but I tell ya, its getting worse. I would love to meet some of the people on this list but I am NOT, crossing the border until ( unless? ) a few things change.


Oy! I feel the same way about Canada.

No not really, but your reasoning is idiotic.