Contador doping...

[Shooter]

In the sports section today, there's a blurb quoting the daily paper, Le Monde, saying that from an investigative file, AC was linked to Operation Puerto. Isn't this old news? What would be their motivation to stir this up? You gotta love the French.

[FlashBazbo]

Very old news.

The French love controversy even more than they love sports.

[1slowbastard]

Velonews recently ran an article explaining the link between Contador and Puerto.
http://www.velonews.com/tour2007/news/articles/12964.0.html

[HigherGround]

Velonews recently ran an article explaining the link between Contador and Puerto.
http://www.velonews.com/tour2007/news/articles/12964.0.html

That's a great article. Thanks for posting the link.

[Falchoon]

http://www.smh.com.au/news/tourdefrance/greatest-swindle-in-sporting-history/2007/07/31/1185647857951.html

[Dr. Bill]

In the sports section today, there's a blurb quoting the daily paper, Le Monde, saying that from an investigative file, AC was linked to Operation Puerto. Isn't this old news? What would be their motivation to stir this up? You gotta love the French.

Old news, but there may be more to the story. At this point, it is rather clear that the Spanish athletic federations (not just cycling, but soccer, etc.) decided to let the whole Puerto matter rest unless the evidence was overwhelmingly obvious (e.g., Oscar Sevilla being caught on videotape). Better that than have many of the nation's elite athletes banned from international competition, and the judicial ruling that no laws were violated (because Spain, unlike Germany and Italy, had no sporting fraud statutes at the time) provided the perfect cover. After all, the athletes had been "cleared" by the judicial authorities. And so "Valve" and "AC" (as certain athetes were referenced in the Fuentes papers) walked. Wonder who they were! :eek:

The only reason that that "Hijo Rudicio" and "Birillo" got nailed was because the German, Swiss, and Italian authorities finally got a hold of at least some of the Puerto documents and evidence, connected the dots, and nailed the cheaters. Assuming the latest report out of Germany is correct, it should not be terribly surprising that additional evidence implicating Spanish riders is coming to light. As to the issue of motive, the possibility of exposiing a dirty TdF winner should be sufficient.

I doubt we've heard the last of this matter.

[interested]

In the sports section today, there's a blurb quoting the daily paper, Le Monde, saying that from an investigative file, AC was linked to Operation Puerto. Isn't this old news? What would be their motivation to stir this up? You gotta love the French.

To my knowledge it was a German newspaper that found the incriminating evidence against Alberto Contador. Brush up your German: http://www.sueddeutsche.de/sport/weitere/artikel/939/124756/

The journalist found the so called "document 31" which are actually a map of files. This map contains several doping plans (faxes) that has Dr. Fuentes handwriting on it (Confirmed by Jörg Jaksche, AKA J.J.). One of them has the initials A.C. on it. The story is still developing, but it appears that initials on the dopingplans fits with the Liberty Seguros 2005 team. Jörg Jaksche has confirmed that the fax bearing his initials J.J. is his doping plan. J.J. rode for Liberty Seguros 2005-2006. Alberto Contador also rode for that team in 2005.

So why was Contador first a suspected Puerto rider and then cleared?. Some of the answer to that is found on the A.C. file from "document 31". Someone, presumably from the Spanish police / prosecution, has written "must not be forwarded/given to UCI" on the A.C. file. UCI now confirms that they were never given "document 31" despite it being part of the Puerto case.

It appears that Contador made a deal with Guardia Civil, that if he told them what he knew, they would withhold incriminating evidence against him. Since Alberto Contadors name were all over the Puerto case files, they could not remove all references, but they did seem to have withheld the actual evidence from UCI. There may be even more evidence against Contador withheld by the Spanish authorities.

Another nasty bit is that there are strong rumors that UCI is part of the cover-up. This may damage UCI beyond belief if this is true. UCI is allready having problems with strong accusations that UCI controllers routinely warns certain teams and riders about when there is controls.

The question is not whether Alberto Contador is doping or not. He is after all a Manolo Saiz student, who has been riding on one of the dirtiest teams in the peloton (Liberty), but if there is enough evidence to evict him permanently from the Pro Tour yet. And if there is enough evidence that UCI will forced to take action, even though they may be part in the cover up.

As for now, the German police has now received the incriminating evidence (document 31) against Alberto Contador, since the Puerto case had several major German links. And the German police has full political backing in working on the Puerto case. As a potential sponsor I wouldn't touch Team Discovery with a 1000 yard pole.


--
Regards

[reef58]

That is a reasonable explanation. Let's see how it turns out.

Richard

To my knowledge it was a German newspaper that found the incriminating evidence against Alberto Contador. Brush up your German: http://www.sueddeutsche.de/sport/weitere/artikel/939/124756/

The journalist found the so called "document 31" which are actually a map of files. This map contains several doping plans (faxes) that has Dr. Fuentes handwriting on it (Confirmed by Jörg Jaksche, AKA J.J.). One of them has the initials A.C. on it. The story is still developing, but it appears that initials on the dopingplans fits with the Liberty Seguros 2005 team. Jörg Jaksche has confirmed that the fax bearing his initials J.J. is his doping plan. J.J. rode for Liberty Seguros 2005-2006. Alberto Contador also rode for that team in 2005.

So why was Contador first a suspected Puerto rider and then cleared?. Some of the answer to that is found on the A.C. file from "document 31". Someone, presumably from the Spanish police / prosecution, has written "must not be forwarded/given to UCI" on the A.C. file. UCI now confirms that they were never given "document 31" despite it being part of the Puerto case.

It appears that Contador made a deal with Guardia Civil, that if he told them what he knew, they would withhold incriminating evidence against him. Since Alberto Contadors name were all over the Puerto case files, they could not remove all references, but they did seem to have withheld the actual evidence from UCI. There may be even more evidence against Contador withheld by the Spanish authorities.

Another nasty bit is that there are strong rumors that UCI is part of the cover-up. This may damage UCI beyond belief if this is true. UCI is allready having problems with strong accusations that UCI controllers routinely warns certain teams and riders about when there is controls.

The question is not whether Alberto Contador is doping or not. He is after all a Manolo Saiz student, who has been riding on one of the dirtiest teams in the peloton (Liberty), but if there is enough evidence to evict him permanently from the Pro Tour yet. And if there is enough evidence that UCI will forced to take action, even though they may be part in the cover up.

As for now, the German police has now received the incriminating evidence (document 31) against Alberto Contador, since the Puerto case had several major German links. And the German police has full political backing in working on the Puerto case. As a potential sponsor I wouldn't touch Team Discovery with a 1000 yard pole.


--
Regards

[GGDub]

To my knowledge it was a German newspaper that found the incriminating evidence against Alberto Contador. Brush up your German: http://www.sueddeutsche.de/sport/weitere/artikel/939/124756/

The journalist found the so called "document 31" which are actually a map of files. This map contains several doping plans (faxes) that has Dr. Fuentes handwriting on it (Confirmed by Jörg Jaksche, AKA J.J.). One of them has the initials A.C. on it. The story is still developing, but it appears that initials on the dopingplans fits with the Liberty Seguros 2005 team. Jörg Jaksche has confirmed that the fax bearing his initials J.J. is his doping plan. J.J. rode for Liberty Seguros 2005-2006. Alberto Contador also rode for that team in 2005.

So why was Contador first a suspected Puerto rider and then cleared?. Some of the answer to that is found on the A.C. file from "document 31". Someone, presumably from the Spanish police / prosecution, has written "must not be forwarded/given to UCI" on the A.C. file. UCI now confirms that they were never given "document 31" despite it being part of the Puerto case.

It appears that Contador made a deal with Guardia Civil, that if he told them what he knew, they would withhold incriminating evidence against him. Since Alberto Contadors name were all over the Puerto case files, they could not remove all references, but they did seem to have withheld the actual evidence from UCI. There may be even more evidence against Contador withheld by the Spanish authorities.

Another nasty bit is that there are strong rumors that UCI is part of the cover-up. This may damage UCI beyond belief if this is true. UCI is allready having problems with strong accusations that UCI controllers routinely warns certain teams and riders about when there is controls.

The question is not whether Alberto Contador is doping or not. He is after all a Manolo Saiz student, who has been riding on one of the dirtiest teams in the peloton (Liberty), but if there is enough evidence to evict him permanently from the Pro Tour yet. And if there is enough evidence that UCI will forced to take action, even though they may be part in the cover up.

As for now, the German police has now received the incriminating evidence (document 31) against Alberto Contador, since the Puerto case had several major German links. And the German police has full political backing in working on the Puerto case. As a potential sponsor I wouldn't touch Team Discovery with a 1000 yard pole.


--
Regards


Yipes. I had suspected the UCI as being complicit in the 90's and the beginning of the Lance era, but I figured they decided better in recent times. I hope that's still the case, but nothing surprises me anymore.

[tjfix]

I hadn't heard about the blood bag marked AC. Is this true? A DNA test could clear this up. If I was innocent I would demand a DNA test.


http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sport/2007/07/31/for_me_this_tour_has_no_winner.html

To date, there is no evidence against Contador, other than a blood bag marked AC found by the Puerto police that he swears isn't his, but his Tour win will simply be blanked from my memory. For me, this Tour has no winner.

[Gee3]

What's hard is not knowing who to believe. You want to believe your heroes but evidence (that many of us have yet to actually see) indicates that they may be guilty.

I certainly hope not but if this crusade is to continue then the heroes of today may be tomorrow's villains. Then we will see the fireworks get even bigger when everyone plays the blame game.

But who irks me is Jorg Jaksche. all of last year he was crying foul and that he's innocent and he's willing to take a DNA test, etc, etc... He was crying how he was treated unfairly and unjustly even though he has nothing to do with Puerto! the only article I could find... (http://www.cyclingnews.com/riders/2006/interviews/?id=jorg_jaksche)

Now that he's been paid to spill his guts he feels the need to muddy others instead of letting justice do the work. He may be right or he could just be bitter, but to me, he has no credibility and no honor.

At least Millar admitted it, paid the crime and has earned the right to speak his mind, as harsh and truthful as it may be.

We can only wait and see what comes to light and make our own judgements.

[lotek]

So, let me ask this. How is it that Herr Werner Franke the German doping expert (crusader) read the guardia civil's documents when he doesn't seak or read spanish?

Marty

[interested]

...

But who irks me is Jorg Jaksche. all of last year he was crying foul and that he's innocent and he's willing to take a DNA test, etc, etc... He was crying how he was treated unfairly and unjustly even though he has nothing to do with Puerto! the only article I could find... (http://www.cyclingnews.com/riders/2006/interviews/?id=jorg_jaksche)


J.J. denied having doped until the evidence where overwhelming, just like Millar did. But unlike Millar he decided to come really clean on how doping worked as seen from one inside the peleton. J.J. works with the German authorities on what he knows, though until now he hasn't told of specific riders names.


Now that he's been paid to spill his guts he feels the need to muddy others instead of letting justice do the work. He may be right or he could just be bitter, but to me, he has no credibility and no honor.

The tactic of throwing dirt at the messenger no longer works. For decades people who told on how doping was rife in the pro peloton was austed, ridiculed, frozen out. But you know what, they were right, and so is Jörg Jackse. As stated before, J.J. doesn't stand in the way of justice, on the contrary. He is an extremely important witness to break the Omerta of the pro peleton, without people like him the cycling sport has no future. You may second guess his personal motives for doing what he does, but as long as he speaks the truth, his motives are of no importance. People like Vinokurov claimed J.J. lied for money, but I guess the one with ominous personal agendas was Vinokurov himself. UCI also dislike J.J. because he has told about some UCI controllers warning certain team and riders.
There is no reason why one should doubt J.J.'s credibility.

There is little love for J.J., but maybe there should be.

--
Regards

[Helmet Head]

What's hard is not knowing who to believe. You want to believe your heroes but evidence (that many of us have yet to actually see) indicates that they may be guilty.

I certainly hope not but if this crusade is to continue then the heroes of today may be tomorrow's villains. Then we will see the fireworks get even bigger when everyone plays the blame game.

But who irks me is Jorg Jaksche. all of last year he was crying foul and that he's innocent and he's willing to take a DNA test, etc, etc... He was crying how he was treated unfairly and unjustly even though he has nothing to do with Puerto! the only article I could find... (http://www.cyclingnews.com/riders/2006/interviews/?id=jorg_jaksche)

Now that he's been paid to spill his guts he feels the need to muddy others instead of letting justice do the work. He may be right or he could just be bitter, but to me, he has no credibility and no honor.

At least Millar admitted it, paid the crime and has earned the right to speak his mind, as harsh and truthful as it may be.

We can only wait and see what comes to light and make our own judgements.
I thought I read about Millar going through the whole denial b.s. stage too, before he got caught with his pants down and then admitted to doing it once or something.

[Helmet Head]

Yipes. I had suspected the UCI as being complicit in the 90's and the beginning of the Lance era, but I figured they decided better in recent times. I hope that's still the case, but nothing surprises me anymore.
Isn't the UCI effectively a union for the riders? Is it so surprising that they would do things to help the riders, like warn them about controls, etc.?

Regardless, isn't it in the interest of the UCI to make the sport "look good"? And that can be accomplished by busting a cyclist here and there ("see, we're doing our job") but also by minimizing the number of scandals as much as they can.

Would it be in the interest of the UCI for it be revealed that 90% of the peloton dopes?

[Gee3]

J.J. denied having doped until the evidence where overwhelming, just like Millar did. But unlike Millar he decided to come really clean on how doping worked as seen from one inside the peleton. J.J. works with the German authorities on what he knows, though until now he hasn't told of specific riders names.




The tactic of throwing dirt at the messenger no longer works. For decades people who told on how doping was rife in the pro peloton was austed, ridiculed, frozen out. But you know what, they were right, and so is Jörg Jackse. As stated before, J.J. doesn't stand in the way of justice, on the contrary. He is an extremely important witness to break the Omerta of the pro peleton, without people like him the cycling sport has no future. You may second guess his personal motives for doing what he does, but as long as he speaks the truth, his motives are of no importance. People like Vinokurov claimed J.J. lied for money, but I guess the one with ominous personal agendas was Vinokurov himself. UCI also dislike J.J. because he has told about some UCI controllers warning certain team and riders.
There is no reason why one should doubt J.J.'s credibility.

There is little love for J.J., but maybe there should be.

--
Regards

Maybe you are right... Time will tell just how important his contributions are. Thanks for the further insight.

[Gee3]

Isn't the UCI effectively a union for the riders? Is it so surprising that they would do things to help the riders, like warn them about controls, etc.?

Regardless, isn't it in the interest of the UCI to make the sport "look good"? And that can be accomplished by busting a cyclist here and there ("see, we're doing our job") but also by minimizing the number of scandals as much as they can.

Would it be in the interest of the UCI for it be revealed that 90% of the peloton dopes?

I think the UCI is afraid of getting egg on their faces if they also "came clean". They'd lose credibility for their own stance on doping if it came out that they "warned" teams and such. But like I was schooled earlier... people like JJ are bringing it out in the open. So we'll see what further drama occurs.

[VT Biker]

Isn't the UCI effectively a union for the riders? Is it so surprising that they would do things to help the riders, like warn them about controls, etc.?

Regardless, isn't it in the interest of the UCI to make the sport "look good"? And that can be accomplished by busting a cyclist here and there ("see, we're doing our job") but also by minimizing the number of scandals as much as they can.

Would it be in the interest of the UCI for it be revealed that 90% of the peloton dopes?

Actually,

UCI is an organization of professional teams, not the riders. This is why they do take punitive action when riders are actually caught through positive tests. If it was a rider's union, you would see even more foot-dragging on doping, and you would have the same situation you have here in the United States with MLB, NFL and NBA in terms of drug policies.


I truly wanted to beleive that the UCI was trying to do the right thing and clean up the sport. But face it, the conflict of interest between the UCI and the teams it purports to monitor is too much. I mean, here you have corporations paying millions to sponsor teams, that have to pay fees to the UCI.

The UCI only exists as long as the teams go along. So is it any surprise that the UCI might "warn" teams about tests, and might "overlook" things such as Contador's infraction with Fuentes? If they actually started getting punitive with these teams, the negative press would disuade teams from participating in the UCI, as a revolt might occur. So the UCI uses kid gloves when it comes to testing. Name a rider who was banned from riding by the UCI that was: (a) not the result of a positive test; (b) not the result of additional investigations by a National Committee such as with Basso (Italy) and Ullrich (Germany)?

Can't can you.

I am 100% behind the ASO at this point. The ASO should completely seperate itself from the UCI and effectively destroy the UCI's purpose (that being that if you bribe them enough and get classified as a Pro-Tuor Team, you get automatic invitations to the biggest races). Once this power is gone. Pat McQuaid and his ilk can find a new line of work.

[harlond]

Actually,

UCI is an organization of professional teams, not the riders. This is why they do take punitive action when riders are actually caught through positive tests. If it was a rider's union, you would see even more foot-dragging on doping, and you would have the same situation you have here in the United States with MLB, NFL and NBA in terms of drug policies.Aren't those sports positively thriving compared to cycling?

[asgelle]

UCI is an organization of professional teams, not the riders.

No. The UCI is the international governing body for the sport of cycling. It is recognized by the IOC as the responsible organization for the sport. Among it's duties, UCI grants international licenses to riders and teams. http://www.uci.ch/modello.asp?1stLevelID=A&level1=0&level2=0&idnews=574&Language=ENG

You're probably thinking of the AIGCP. http://roadmag.blogspot.com/2007/06/discovery-channel-team-resigns-from.html

[Helmet Head]

This was in cyclingnews on 7/31:

--------------------
Franke claims Contador involved in Puerto cover-up

German anti-doping crusader Werner Franke has claimed to be in possession of incriminating documents which, he says, proves Tour de France winner Alberto Contador was involved in Operación Puerto (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/puerto_complete). Franke described the Spaniard's victory as "the greatest swindle in sporting history", before going on to claim the documents not only list Contador but also the substances
"The name of this Mr Contador appears on several occasions on the court and police documents," he told German television station ZDF. "All of this has been simply concealed and hidden under the carpet while the name Contador was erased from the list of supicious riders."
Franke claims to be in possession of a detailed list of performance enhancing and banned products used by Contador, which appear in sworn statements following the raid on Fuentes' medical practice.
"He took insulin, HMG-Lepori, a hormone to stimulate the secretion of testosterone and also a product for asthma called TGN - in brief I have before my eyes a protocol for doping," he said. "All of this has been covered up, at least in Spain."
When questioned on how he came into possession of such documents, Franke refused to give away any information. "They simply landed in my briefcase, that happens sometimes, and I promptly handed them over the Bundeskriminalamt {the German national police - ed.}".


--------------------

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/jul07/jul31news2

And this is from today, 8/7:

---------------------
Evans: Contador is "innocent until proven guilty"

Cadel Evans waves
Photo ©: AFP http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2007/tour07/tour0720/DV214644tn.jpg (http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2007/tour07/index.php?id=/photos/2007/tour07/tour0720/DV214644) While on holiday in Venice, Italy, 2007 Tour de France runner-up Cadel Evans took time out to conduct an interview on the Australian talk show, Enough Rope. Evans was interviewed on Monday, August 6, 2007, via satellite by the show's host, Andrew Denton, while the cyclist's mother and grandmother were present in the Sydney ABC-TV studio. Indeed, even at the end, Evans' wife Chiara made a cameo by being invited into the shot.
Denton's method is to use his humour and knowledge to have his subjects relax and open up on camera. Denton started the interview by asking the cyclist's mother and grandmother about Evans as a young boy, while screening shots of a diminutive cyclist pulling 'wheelies' on a tiny BMX bike. Across the globe, Evans sat in a Venice TV studio and while looking relaxed, he still offered measured answers to some probing questions, asked with an almost-innocence by the interviewer. After discussing Evans' childhood and life growing up on a remote Northern Territory settlement, Denton moved into the hot topic following this year's Tour: losing by 23 seconds and doping.
He was specifically asked if he believed that Alberto Contador (Discovery Channel) deserved this year's Tour de France victory, especially in light of comments made by German anti-doping activist (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/jul07/jul31news2), Werner Franke, that the Spaniard's victory was "the greatest swindle" in sports history.
Evans said: "I think, like everyone, there is a bit of a shadow over his winning and his reputation. For me, innocent until proven guilty is always my attitude.
"Just because you win the Tour de France doesn't mean you are a cheat. People have to remember that. If something comes out... solid evidence, yes... but 'til now, no solid proof has come out. So I'll leave him innocent until proven guilty," he said.
Evans also admitted to Denton that the issue of doping in cycling had made him consider quitting the sport, "but that would be giving up. I don't want to do that.
"I think [cheating is] human nature. It's not just the Tour de France. It's not just sport. It's the world as a whole. People will always look for an easier way, or ways to gain more or profit more from a situation. I can't change the world as a whole, but I can do my best and what I believe is right and I [will] continue doing that."
Evans had certainly counted the seconds lost and is now counting the days until next year's Tour. He said "every day of my life" leading up to next year's Tour will be focused on that goal.
The cyclist also thanked his family and wife, Chiara, who is a classical pianist. He said listening to his wife practice at home was one of the joys of his life, and he enjoyed attending her concerts and recitals, as it gave him a break from the cycling scene.
---------------------
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/aug07/aug07news

[VT Biker]

^^^^^

I think Evans said all that he needed to. I am glad Evans is not going to completely go all Lance and try to protect every rider not caught by the tests during the race as completely clean.

[vik]

^^^^^

I think Evans said all that he needed to. I am glad Evans is not going to completely go all Lance and try to project every rider not caught as completely clean.

+1 - Evans is a class act. Not uber flashy, but he lets his riding speak for itself.

[Helmet Head]

^^^^^

I think Evans said all that he needed to. I am glad Evans is not going to completely go all Lance and try to project every rider not caught as completely clean.
I think he said more than was needed. In fact, I found what he said to be very revealing.


"I think [cheating is] human nature. It's not just the Tour de France. It's not just sport. It's the world as a whole. People will always look for an easier way, or ways to gain more or profit more from a situation. I can't change the world as a whole, but I can do my best and what I believe is right and I [will] continue doing that."Sounds like acceptance almost bordering on endorsement of doping to me.
There is not even a hint of him resigning to this conclusion. It's like he accepts and expects it as a given.
Most revealing, perhaps, is the usual lack of outrage. That much is classy (but typical for most riders in the peloton), for the hypocritical comments of dopers acting like they're outraged by the doping of others is pathetic.

[erader]

I think he said more than was needed. In fact, I found what he said to be very revealing.
Sound like acceptance almost bordering on endorsement of doping to me.
There is not even a hint of him resigning to this conclusion. It's like he accepts and expects it as a given.
Most revealing, perhaps, is the usual lack of outrage. That much is classy (but typical for most riders in the peloton), for the hypocritical comments of dopers acting like they're outraged by the doping of others is pathetic.

i agree. i don't see anything classy about what evans said, and he still has that look on his face like he sucked on a pickle :eek:.

ed rader

[USAZorro]

I think he said more than was needed. In fact, I found what he said to be very revealing.

Sounds like acceptance almost bordering on endorsement of doping to me.
There is not even a hint of him resigning to this conclusion. It's like he accepts and expects it as a given.
Most revealing, perhaps, is the usual lack of outrage. That much is classy (but typical for most riders in the peloton), for the hypocritical comments of dopers acting like they're outraged by the doping of others is pathetic.

Care to try that last sentence again - in English please?

[erader]

+1 - Evans is a class act. Not uber flashy, but he lets his riding speak for itself.


yep he's a wheel suck :eek:!

ed rader

[VT Biker]

I think he said more than was needed. In fact, I found what he said to be very revealing.

Sounds like acceptance almost bordering on endorsement of doping to me.
There is not even a hint of him resigning to this conclusion. It's like he accepts and expects it as a given.
Most revealing, perhaps, is the usual lack of outrage. That much is classy (but typical for most riders in the peloton), for the hypocritical comments of dopers acting like they're outraged by the doping of others is pathetic.

I think Evans is playing his cards. He is not defending Contador, nor is he indiciting him. He want to win the Yellow next year. If he starts wailing around, shouting out accusations, he is going to get the "Lance" treatment from almost every other rider save for his own team-mates next year on the Tour.

What he did was say just enough so that we KNOW Evans thinks Contador doped, but not enough so as to get himself into Simioni territory.