Road Cycling - Who makes what frames?

After reading several newbie posts about what bikes to buy, I have noticed that many people say many frames are the same. My questions is: What companies actually make their own frames and what companies (especially big or popular ones) just stick a label on a generic frame made in China?

I know Giant makes frames for most (if not all) the x-mart bikes.

that's why I make my own frames... :D :D

I think lots of companies have thier products made in Asia, or at least they have factories in Asia because labor is cheaper...

Bur I don't know the specifics.. So I better shut my mouth..:D

Raleigh, one of the oldest (if not THE oldest) US bike company, moved its manufacturing operations for its low end bikes to Asia recently. They may even be contracting with Giant, but who knows.

I think a safe bet is that if the sticker on the head tube saz "Made in China" or something like that, it's probably made by Giant.

I know my bike is hand made in New Zealand :D

Some examples of companies that "brand" products made for them:

Specialized, GT, Mongoose, Lemond, Schwinn(current), Masi(current), Mercier(current), Scattante.

Some examples of companies that manufacture their own products and may also have "branded" products made for them by other manufacturers:

Bianchi, Trek.

Some examples of companies that manufacture their own products:

Seven, Litespeed, Look, Tommassini.

This is not an all inclusive list by any means but is just meant to show a variety of different companies. Buying a branded product doesn't necessarily mean anything regarding the quality of the product. The quality control that the branding company demands is the factor that determines quality. Specialized, for example, has always had high quality products. But, to the best of my knowledge, they don't make anything. They market and distribute.

What about Cannondale?

Yes, I have a Cannondale,,,that is why I felt confident about posting the question. Hand made in the USA, says right there on the tube. Whee!

My Trek was made by Easton, even though it's made here. Oh well, what difference does it make? :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Chi
Raleigh, one of the oldest (if not THE oldest) US bike company, moved its manufacturing operations for its low end bikes to Asia recently. They may even be contracting with Giant, but who knows.

My Trek was made by Easton, even though it's made here. Oh well, what difference does it make?

Couple of corrections for you here. Not flaming, just informative...

Raleigh IS one of the oldest surviving marquees in cycling, but has never been a US company. You can trace it's history back to Nottingham England and built it's reputation on good solid bikes starting at the turn of the century.

Here's a brief timeline of Raleigh history: http://retroraleighs.com/history.html

As far as Easton being the manufacturer of your trek, survey says.....EEEEMP....wrong answer. Easton is a tubing manufacturer, they supply a great deal of aluminum to the cycling industry and were the first company to really develop technology that allowed the material to not only be built with some compliance, but also be built economically (Easton Elite Pro-Gram 7005 series taperwall aluminum, developed in partnership with Yeti owner John Parker, '88-'89)

Since your bike is easton and not their generic Alpha tubeset, your frame was probably welded up in their factory in Wisconsin.

By the way, even Trek takes on branded work, as they did a run of Yetis over the last year or so...

There are a few big frame manufacturers. The one listed Giant is one, there is also Kalloy, which by the way makes alot of components for many companies, Kinesis, and KHS.

Fit is the most important characteristic. It's too bad that a frame made by low cost labor to high standards won't fit as well as a frame with the same geometry and dimensions from a high labor cost company. Otherwise I would buy the less expensive frame made out of the same materials, with the same quality, geometry and dimensions, with the same or better components, but pay less money. I might even buy the frame from a mail order company, and fit the bike myself, rather than have the inexperienced staff at the nearest bike store (NBS) fit me to a bike I don't feel comfortable on.

Cool, that was sarcastic!

Thanks for the info Farmer John but I think we could have shared the information without the hint of sarcasm. ;)

There are a few lower end Bianchi bikes that are not made in Italy. I'm assuming these are 'branded' from another manufacturer, which I believe is in Asia. I noticed a "Made in somewhere else" label on one once, I think it was a Brava.

Oryx, Miele, Mikado, Bodyguard Fitness products, Rocky Mountain Bicycles, Quetzal recumbents, Balfa, Peugeot , CCM, and a few “mart” bikes are manufactured on licence or owned by Procycle, Canada.

Couple corrections here-Litespeed does not manufacture all of their models in TN. Any aluminum model is made overseas. Also, Trek has a manufacturing agreement with Giant that includes some of their other brands, i.e., Fisher. Specialized has Merida manufacturing the vast majority of their bikes, as Merida is part-owner of Specialized now. Hodaka and Kinesis are just two other companies that manufacture bikes for other brands.
Farmer John, do you have any more info on the Yeti/Trek relationship? I've been trying to figure all that out but my guys at Yeti aren't very forthcoming and them specing Bontrager parts is an interesting addition.

Other than a couple of my bike shop buddies that carry Yeti telling me of receiving some of the bikes from Waterloo, unfortunately no.

Originally posted by Farmer John
As far as Easton being the manufacturer of your trek, survey says.....EEEEMP....wrong answer. Easton is a tubing manufacturer, they supply a great deal of aluminum to the cycling industry and were the first company to really develop technology that allowed the material to not only be built with some compliance, but also be built economically (Easton Elite Pro-Gram 7005 series taperwall aluminum, developed in partnership with Yeti owner John Parker, '88-'89)



hey all. this is my first post...but i won't bother you with the typical newbie "hi i'm new here/new to bicycling/new to the planet" stuff (all of which is true).

so when a manufacturer has a "columbus aluminum" logo next to their primo bike, it doesn't mean columbus welded the frame together...right? it just means columbus manufactured the tubes, and then the bike company assembled (or had someone else assemble) the frame.

so really, a bike manufacturer is just someone who knocked the tubes - built by someone else - into a frame-shaped object, then tacked on components built by someone else. am i getting this whole bike company thing down?

and yes i realize there are variations on a theme, for example shimano makes components and also makes (or has someone else make) frames, so they're doing a bit more in the whole bike manufacturing process.

so if i spend $2000 on an aluminum frame, what am i getting that i wouldn't get with a $500 aluminum frame? (yes i'm sure my cynicism toward expensive bikes is showing through, but i'm new...)

so if i spend $2000 on an aluminum frame, what am i getting that i wouldn't get with a $500 aluminum frame? (yes i'm sure my cynicism toward expensive bikes is showing through, but i'm new...) [/B]

Well, that's like saying what's the difference between a BMW 325i and a Toyota Corolla... they're both cars, right? Well, they have different structures. You see that a $2000 frame will have extravegent welding jobs and look smooth and sheek. Opposed to the $500 deal that will weld, but not to the specs of the $2000 one.

-Dan the Man-

The big exspense in tubing is in how thin it is drawn, how it is butted, the alloy content. A thin drawn tube that is made with very short butts (This requires different tubes for different size frames and increased inventory also raises cost) that is made of a high strength alloy will cost more than straight guage high-ten.

ok that makes sense then. i guess aluminum is never straight aluminum, it's always an alloy of some sort. so the mixture is important, the way it's processed, and of course the way it's all stuck together.

when i hear about $4000 frames (never mind sticking components on it), i'm just astounded. it's not like there's gold filagree or diamond studded decorations on it. simply amazes me. but i appreciate the explanation.

If youa re worried about 60 seconds over the entire tour de france then every gram is important. If, like me, you weigh 270, then whether the frame weighs 2.5 pounds or 3.5 pounds is irrelevant. A modestly priced aluminum frame would seem to give the best performance/price ratio for club rider types. For tourers, repairablility becomes an issue, as well as weight, so for them steel is king. there are lots of other issues, too. To me, the bottom line is get good geometry and components. It will be a rare frame that won't be acceptable if it fits.

A good rule of thumb is that almost every road bike below $1000, and the majority of those below $1500 have frames made overseas, mostly in Asia. The Specialized A1 frames, for example, are made from pretty generic Alu, to Specialized's specfications by Merida.

The question, of course, is whether a frame welded by an American welder is necessarily better than a frame welded by an Asian welder paid a fraction of the salary in my experience, not necessarily. American-made frames tend to be made of better materials, but only because American manufacturers tend to keep their short-run production stateside, and American bike factories, which produce shorter runs of bikes and thus have less product to account for, typically have better QA. But I'm not convinced that an Asian welder, or even an Asian manufacturer, is necessarily inferior to his American counterpart.

In fact, it seems that, to suggest that he is, borders on racism.

Well, you are catching on. A bicycle manufacturer just takes tubing and builds a frame then goes out and buys components and hangs them on the frame and calls it a bicycle (which it is).

So what do you get in a $2000 frame that you don't get on a $500 frame?

Well, I am not that up on frames.

But in nearly everything there is a price/performance or quality curve.

In bikes, if you buy the cheapest new bike you can find, you will get something that is virtually unrideable. So the bike is cheap but in reality it is expensive because it is no good. When you spend more money, you used to get a really heavy bike that was hard as the dickens to get any speed out of but it was usable.

My point here is at the low end, increases in money spent give you a noticeably better bicycle. As you get into better and better bikes, the curve flattens out and spending a lot more money gives you only slightly more performance.

Right now, I understand you can buy a bike with a generic frame and Shimano 105 components for $1000. A bike with a "name brand" frame will cost a more but maybe give you a subtly different ride which might be important to a cyclist. Thing is that once you have gotten to 105, you have gotten most of the performance that you are going to get. Spending a whole lot more is not going to give you that much in return. For example, I believe that Dura Ace and 105 are similar but Dura Ace costs four times as much and weighs about 1.5 lbs less. The 1.5 lbs would be important on mountain stages in the Tour de France. But shoot, I can afford to lose 15 more lbs (had an injury). I guess if I lost that weight, kept it off, and kept in shape and was interested in getting all the performance possible (and I am not) then buying Dura Ace would make sense.

Originally posted by peloton
But I'm not convinced that an Asian welder, or even an Asian manufacturer, is necessarily inferior to his American counterpart.

In fact, it seems that, to suggest that he is, borders on racism.

word!

i wonder - and this is completely rhetorical because most people would never admit, even to themselves, that this was true - how much of that influences our thinking in bike buying. how many people choose to buy Campy stuff because Shimano is a japanese company? not that they have anything against japanese people of course, just that italians know bikes and asians don't...is that the thinking? do people think "i don't want to buy a Specialized bike (which is what i have) because the frames are secretly put together by taiwanese?" i know that the boutique manufacturers really try to push the "little company vs. big overseas corporation" marketing angle. coupled with some closet racism on the part of the buyer and it's a winning combination.


Originally posted by Pat
My point here is at the low end, increases in money spent give you a noticeably better bicycle. As you get into better and better bikes, the curve flattens out and spending a lot more money gives you only slightly more performance.

yeah i understand that curve well. i'm in the music business and deal with equipment issues all the time. to get twice the performance you have to spend ten times as much (or more likely two hundred times as much).

ok i think my question about "what's the point of a $3500 frame" was off the mark. i know that quality costs money. i guess what i should have asked is, how do you know you're getting your money's worth? my Specialized Allez apparently has generic aluminum in it...fair enough. but if i spent another $2k, how would i know i was getting $2k, or even $1k, worth of improvement? it is after all just a bunch of tubes stuck together in a bicycle shape! would the improvement be noticeable to a new rider like me?

Made here or there,arent they all following the same spec's?The welds on the fuji look just as good as the cd as the felt as the cervelo.Two of the same bikes,one made here and you can get it for $2000 or made in asia for $1200.If you dont race and just ride,which one do you get?

Originally posted by ockey53
Well, that's like saying what's the difference between a BMW 325i and a Toyota Corolla... they're both cars, right?

Yeah, but the 'yota is a much better built car for much less money.

;)

But seriously-

Most people (not necessarily implying anyone in this thread, or at this forum for that matter), are buying not for themselves, but for the image they would like to project. If I own the biggest, best or most expensive, it must be because I (unlike the common poser) need the item, whereas Joe Schmuck could get by with much less.

This seems (at least to me) to be true in every arena of life, from cars, to bikes, to clothes, etc. People generally have an extremely high opinion of themselves.

i think we're all a little guilty of buying stuff to impress. or at the bottom end of the scale, buying stuff that we hope people won't laugh at us for.

the car comparision ockey made seems a bit off the mark, only because whole cars are way more complicated than bike frames. you merely have to sit in a BMW and know it's going to cost more than the toyota. (whether it's value-for-money is another issue entirely) but with a frame, how do you know? gross extremes of cost aside...even a rookie like me could probably tell the difference between a $300 frame and a $5000 frame.

so take shokhead's example of a $2k frame vs a $1200 frame. if they were bare, unpainted aluminum, could any of us tell the difference? could i tell the difference? would they look any different? or is the ride going to be different? if so, how subtle is it? or is it "just" a reliability/durability issue?

basically, how do you know you're not fooling yourself with the paint job? having the word "Litespeed" painted on your bike can make it feel a whole lot faster than "Schwinn"...but is that feeling legit?

Thats kinda the same as after i wash my car,well you know,its always way faster,a good wash is worth at least 25 hp.LOL.Oh,i'll take the litespeed.

Originally posted by rippo
i think we're all a little guilty of buying stuff to impress. or at the bottom end of the scale, buying stuff that we hope people won't laugh at us for.

the car comparision ockey made seems a bit off the mark, only because whole cars are way more complicated than bike frames. you merely have to sit in a BMW and know it's going to cost more than the toyota. (whether it's value-for-money is another issue entirely) but with a frame, how do you know? gross extremes of cost aside...even a rookie like me could probably tell the difference between a $300 frame and a $5000 frame.

so take shokhead's example of a $2k frame vs a $1200 frame. if they were bare, unpainted aluminum, could any of us tell the difference? could i tell the difference? would they look any different? or is the ride going to be different? if so, how subtle is it? or is it "just" a reliability/durability issue?

basically, how do you know you're not fooling yourself with the paint job? having the word "Litespeed" painted on your bike can make it feel a whole lot faster than "Schwinn"...but is that feeling legit?

Yeah, a better comparison would be with diamond. If you are given two diamonds, would you be able to tell which one cost twice as much? Not if you understand the cut, reflection, colors, and all those crap debeers wants you to believe. Will you be twice as pretty if you wear a $2000 diamond ring compared to a $1000 diamond ring? Well, it may make you "feel" prettier :) . Same thing with expensive wine, sound systems, and all the other stuff rich folks crave. Significantly more money for insignificant increase in real value.

The moral of the story: instead of buying a 10 grand sound system, use the money for a good piano lesson.

Sorry,not with sound systems.You really get what you pay for.

Originally posted by shokhead
Sorry,not with sound systems.You really get what you pay for.

Yes, if you go from $1K to $10K, but not from $10K to $20K. IMHO.
Just like going from Sora to 105, it's worth it. But from 105 to Dura-ace? Unless you are really-really good, you won't feel much of a difference.

in the cycling world, they're called "weight weenies". in the audio world, they're called "golden ears". while money can buy you quality, it's no guarantee. i find the claims of both groups of people highly suspect in many cases. i'm in the music business and i deal with these sorts of claims pretty regularly. using oxygen-free cables on your speakers results in as noticeable an improvement as does using a carbon comp water bottle holder. no offense, shokhead. :)

but certainly, sometimes it makes sense. paying $1000 instead of $100 for speakers, buying 105's rather than Tiagra/Sora (i'm guessing...as my bike has a T/S combo and i wouldn't know any better).

Thats what i'm talking about.$100 set of speakers will sound different then $1000 set and different cable,only a dog will notice.Bikes,difference between 105 and ultegra crank,same as cable.1900g wheelset and a 1200g wheelset,you'll know.

Does all this mean if i have speakers on my bike i'll win thr tdf?LOL

Originally posted by Chi
I think a safe bet is that if the sticker on the head tube saz "Made in China" or something like that, it's probably made by Giant.

Don't want to be nikpicky - but Giant is a Taiwanese company. Most of Giant's production remains in Taiwan - and Giant isn't exactly a crappy producer either, they have excellent welding and carbon fibre frames.

This briings up an interesting story, which I actually did some research on.

I recently purchased a Pedal Force frame, but these frames are made outside the USA, and I had no idea where they were made. Some guys on the forums said that they were probably made by Martec in Taiwan. So I did some research...

I asked the Pedal Force seller, "Who makes these frames?" He said "Pedal Force." I asked "where are they made?" He couldn't tell me because of licensing agreements. But he did say, "I will tell you this, though a slightly differant shape, they have very similar geometry to LOOK cf frames, HINT, HINT."

So, I looked on the LOOK website for info, and of course nothing about where LOOK frames are really made. Apparently, some of there stuff is made by them, some contracted out to someone else. hmmm..........

I contacted Pedal Force again. I again mentioned to him that alot of guys say they are made in Taiwan, by Martec. He laughed and said, "NO. But, they are made somewhere in Asia."

That made a light go on upstairs. That means not all LOOK stuff is made by LOOK.

So where is it made?

I did several hours more research on the net, did some worldwide business searches, and even made a few 1-800 phone calls just out of curiosity.

I finally found something on a web business search in Asia. I found a small company that makes carbon fiber bicycle frames amongst other space aged products made of composite materials....

The company was called.... Pedal Force!!! Just like the guy told me.

A very small and obscure factory, located in "Singapore", of all places. They actually make the Pedal Force monocoque frame with their own name on them. And yes, they are much less expensive than most others, because they are not flashy, nor do they advertise. They are basically a blank, with a plain matte finish, or some other plain color finish.

And, apparently, they make frames for other bicycle companies as well. Gee...

I wonder who?

how do you like the frame? I'm assuming that it's the one you painted yourself and named "trinity"(or something like that....)

Comparable to some of the name-brand CF frames out there? Ex. Look, Specialized, Giant, etc.

Well, since it basically was just a plain blank, it took a bit of prep work to smooth out all the little tiny spots where there was imperfections (from the epoxy), but otherwise it is a pretty nice frame. Nothing real flashy, but extremely functional. The one I got says it weighs 1306g. But, I weighed it myself on two differant small scales, and it actually weighs in at 1200-1250g between the two.

As far as the Pedal force decal that came with it goes. I figure they won't mind me giving it my own name, as with all honesty, the Pedal Force decal was really cheesy. I think they just threw it on there for the heck of it, assuming most guys would probably remove it, as it isn't clear coated to seal it on there.

As far as comparing it to other frames, I would have to say it is in fact comparable as far as function goes. Very stiff, and pretty darn light. I know Orbea Orca frames weigh a little less. The new LOOK 486 is also really nice design. They seem to have a more flashy and asthetically pleasing shape compared to the one I got, but the geometry is an almost exact match to the LOOK frames.

It is a semi-compact frame. Not very heavily sloped top tube, but sloped just a little for the 58cm frame.

The big differance, is that it really is nowhere near as pretty, as I my painting skills are good, but nowhere near the level you get with an Orbea Orca. But, for being done in my garage without a paint-booth, it turned out pretty good. The color layout on mine is good, but the smoothness is lacking due to micro-hairs and dust etc. But, that has nothing to do with what's underneath.

I’m sure LOOK don’t produce their own frames as I also know very few frame makes do.
I think my Airborne is made by http://www.ti-bicycle.com/gywm/gywm-e.htm and same goes with at least quite a few of the Litespeed frames. So ?
Their good and cheap.
They are all ordered by spec. from a good factory also delivering to big industry with high demands to the quality.
A friend of mine who runs a LBS visited the factory making the LOOK frames. He was gonna have some forks made for his own brand of bikes (He uses a lot of Scandium and Kinesium). They also made the nose part for the JumboJet.
My clue where my Specialized is made. Says made in USA, but I could be made in USA and still be produced in Taiwan.
The K2 mod 5 made of Columbus tubing ?????? I don’t know and I don’t care.
As long as it’s not slave work or something like that. (Are we thinking of any Mexican factory in particular ??)

Yeah, as long as they aren't forced at gunpoint to work 16hrs a day for practically nothing.

But, the Airborne is in fact, one sweet frame.

Gotta love those Viking bars too!

Yeah, as long as they aren't forced at gunpoint to work 16hrs a day for practically nothing.
But, the Airborne is in fact, one sweet frame.
Gotta love those Viking bars too!
Hey. I'm from Norway, meaning I am a Viking. Of course I needed a Viking bar.

That was a very good price on that USE combo !! Great stuff. Their good !
I was considring the USE integrated, but but just fell for that oversized Viking.
Really goes good to the bike, and I wanted an "a stiff as possible" handlebar/stem.

See you have a mongoose. Guess who, together with TST among others,
where involved in that "one Mexican factory in particular" :eek:
Why Cambriabike and others can sell out TST frames for close to nothing I don't know,
but I think it's a part of the same story. ;)
It does not remove the fact that it's good frames, but I feel sorry for what money can do
to some people. But this is not a forum for politics. :)

Yes, if you go from $1K to $10K, but not from $10K to $20K. IMHO.
Just like going from Sora to 105, it's worth it. But from 105 to Dura-ace? Unless you are really-really good, you won't feel much of a difference.
With sound systems you do get what you pay for !!!!
Just keep in mind that the price/quality graph is exponetial.

I have a +300lbs $20000 stereo (Not incl. surround & video) and I can promisse that even a musichater could tell the soundquallity is great.
But yes I know. This is a bike forum

Here is a picture of Lectron

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Lectron/Nettbilder/JH60.jpg

With sound systems you do get what you pay for !!!!
Just keep in mind that the price/quality graph is exponetial.

I have a +300lbs $20000 stereo (Not incl. surround & video) and I can promisse that even a musichater could tell the soundquallity is great.
But yes I know. This is a bike forum

Here is a picture of Lectron

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Lectron/Nettbilder/JH60.jpg

Definition of an "Audiophile". Somebody who claims to be able to hear something 99.99999% of the world's population can't. :D Not picking on you Lectron, because I'm very guilty of the same thing. I have a stupid amount of money put into my car audio.

The point being though, if you have no frame of reference for something, there's not really any way to know the difference between two items. If you'd never seen a car before, would you really know the difference between a Toyota and a Lexus? If you've never played guitar, would you really be able to tell the difference between how a PRS plays and Squire plays? So, that being said, no, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the two frames. As long as it's well made, then who cares who made it.

Thing is that once you have gotten to 105, you have gotten most of the performance that you are going to get. Spending a whole lot more is not going to give you that much in return.

This is true for all practical purposes.....After 105 improvements in performance get harder to detect (exception would be DA shifters are noticeably nicer).....that's why Shimano and Campy resort to making things such as 180mm cranks exclusive to the top group only (so people will enticed to get the DA or Record because they can get a noticeable improvement such as the longer cranks.)

A Steel 105 bike makes a great training bike for many reasons....You don't have to stress about scratching it up, worrying about it crashing, plus 9 speed cassettes and chains are cheap. In short you ride it and don't baby it...you'll think to yourself if the weather is bad, "who cares about this bike getting dirty...my training is more important."

The question, of course, is whether a frame welded by an American welder is necessarily better than a frame welded by an Asian welder

Is any production component hand welded any longer or are they machine (robot) welded?

Not sure about the welding of framework, but I do know that virtually every carbon component and frame requires hand layup and assembly. CNC machining of cf parts prior to assembly is one part where robotic machines are used.
Most frames though, have hand layup of the sections, and are then glued together with lugs etc. in a jig to make them straight.
Even monocoque and one piece bladder systems require hand layup prior to forming and baking of the cf.
I am sure even these areas will be automated eventually.

ok that makes sense then. i guess aluminum is never straight aluminum, it's always an alloy of some sort. so the mixture is important, the way it's processed, and of course the way it's all stuck together.

when i hear about $4000 frames (never mind sticking components on it), i'm just astounded. it's not like there's gold filagree or diamond studded decorations on it. simply amazes me. but i appreciate the explanation.

How about sterling silver and rubies? http://www.bohemianbicycles.com/photo_gallery_6.htm

Yeah, a better comparison would be with diamond. If you are given two diamonds, would you be able to tell which one cost twice as much? Not if you understand the cut, reflection, colors, and all those crap debeers wants you to believe. Will you be twice as pretty if you wear a $2000 diamond ring compared to a $1000 diamond ring? Well, it may make you "feel" prettier :) . Same thing with expensive wine, sound systems, and all the other stuff rich folks crave. Significantly more money for insignificant increase in real value.

The moral of the story: instead of buying a 10 grand sound system, use the money for a good piano lesson.

I have to disagree with the diamond analogy. When you spend more on a diamond unless you get ripped off there is a visable difference in appearance. You may not be twice as pretty with a $2K diamond vs a $1K diamond but you will definitely see the difference in the stone. Whether you care about the difference is a different question.