PLACE YOUR SIGNATURE AT WWW.KYLLINGEN.COM (http://www.KYLLINGEN.COM) AND SUPPORT A GREAT RIDER IN TOUGH TIMES

yeah, give someone you don't know your name, ip number, and email address!!!

I still cant understand how is it that Rasmussen is as guilty as those that came out positive in a test....I thought that Tour organizers complained not about him missing two tests, but about him missing tests within 45 days of the Tour. Supposedly UCI turned blind eye on that infraction, claiming even that this rule was about to be dropped anyway, and hence not enforced.

I think it's not a question of French wanting to have French winner again, but rather of Tour organizers being convinced every top rider dopes, and trying to remove everyone "guilty". No matter how.

Weird about Mayo positive for EPO. Why so many doping busts this year?

His team and the tour were aware of his warnings prior to the tour. Why did his team wait until after he wins a stage (and is about to win the tour)? This causes me curiousity.

yeah, give someone you don't know your name, ip number, and email address!!!

They e-mailed me back and asked for my bank account number so they could wire to me funds to start a US domestic save Rasmussan organization. I should get the funds in the next 2 - 3 days I was told. Odd - for some reason Rasmussan sure has a ton of fans in Nigeria.

Come on VT what about the children?

Richard

They e-mailed me back and asked for my bank account number so they could wire to me funds to start a US domestic save Rasmussan organization. I should get the funds in the next 2 - 3 days I was told. Odd - for some reason Rasmussan sure has a ton of fans in Nigeria.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Michael was on his way to fulfill a life long dream and win the yellow jersey of the Tour de France 2007. . . .

If you want to show your support there are sites out there where you can. For instance www.kyllingen.com (chicken) and the myspace profile www.myspace.com/michaelrasmussen_2007.

-mlv
Newbie with 1 post.

Chicken, is this you? If not, this person is pretty much parroting MR's talking points. Must be a friend/family member.

VT Biker,
Interesting perspective and to a certain extent I might agree with some of you points, specially the one about ASO and the Tour which does not make anything more correct necessarily. Just confirms that ASO truly wants to control who wins the Tour.

While MR theoretically has not lost his right to ride like Mayo will, I still believe his career has been fried on pure speculation, I hope I'm wrong and he can ride again. And if he is a true doper and its proven I will be the first to cast the first stone.

You also mentioned the responsibility that comes with corporate sponsors and the need of riders to understand this. Which is true, but what is surprising, is what happend the night after stage 16 to turn around Rabo bank's support of MR. Rabo bank accepted MR at the beginning of the Tour knowing all his history. Rabo stood by MR during the press conference. The fact that they cave in to the Tour and ASO only shows that they are guilty of completely mismananging a situation and loosing any corporate responsibility they had with a rider they sponsored. I believe one should expect equal support and respect from your employer as much as you are to correspond him. If Rabo accepted the risk at the start they should have kept heir decision and act accordingly throughout the Tour. I'm not forgeting that Rabo said he lied, thus breach of agreement maybe... but they knew who they were employing. It's all a question of money
It was Chris Horner ,rider for lotto, who said that the protest that riders wanted to do against doping at the begining of stage 17 should not happen, That if they wanted to protest they should get a lawyer and form a union. I agree wholeheartedly with this assertion and maybe if riders had a union to represent them this mess could have been averted.
And yes, I must give MR the benefit of the doubt..... eventhough I'm not in the market to buy the Eiffel tower or brookling bridge at a cheap price.
In one thing we truly agree... Dick C is not only a bad shot but he is truly the devil !!!

landis is a punk and hope he is stripped of his TDF victory. lance doped but was never busted. what ras did was stupid and indicative of a cheater.

glad to see his stupid ass stripped of the MJ right when it looked to be a done deal. couldn't think of a better ending :eek:.

ed rader

In your tiny avatar, is that Marco Pantani?

VT Biker,
Interesting perspective and to a certain extent I might agree with some of you points, specially the one about ASO and the Tour which does not make anything more correct necessarily. Just confirms that ASO truly wants to control who wins the Tour.

While MR theoretically has not lost his right to ride like Mayo will, I still believe his career has been fried on pure speculation, I hope I'm wrong and he can ride again. And if he is a true doper and its proven I will be the first to cast the first stone.

You also mentioned the responsibility that comes with corporate sponsors and the need of riders to understand this. Which is true, but what is surprising, is what happend the night after stage 16 to turn around Rabo bank's support of MR. Rabo bank accepted MR at the beginning of the Tour knowing all his history. Rabo stood by MR during the press conference. The fact that they cave in to the Tour and ASO only shows that they are guilty of completely mismananging a situation and loosing any corporate responsibility they had with a rider they sponsored. I believe one should expect equal support and respect from your employer as much as you are to correspond him. If Rabo accepted the risk at the start they should have kept heir decision and act accordingly throughout the Tour. I'm not forgeting that Rabo said he lied, thus breach of agreement maybe... but they knew who they were employing. It's all a question of money
It was Chris Horner ,rider for lotto, who said that the protest that riders wanted to do against doping at the begining of stage 17 should not happen, That if they wanted to protest they should get a lawyer and form a union. I agree wholeheartedly with this assertion and maybe if riders had a union to represent them this mess could have been averted.
And yes, I must give MR the benefit of the doubt..... eventhough I'm not in the market to buy the Eiffel tower or brookling bridge at a cheap price.
In one thing we truly agree... Dick C is not only a bad shot but he is truly the devil !!!



A couple of responses:

(a) Rasmussan decided to withhold the violations from his own team. They were unaware of the Danish violations until they came to light by the Danish authorities. Now, if I have an ethical violation as a result of my profession, I am going to communicate that to my employer quicker than anyone else. Rasmussan did not, and thus, placed Rabobank in a very difficult and tricky situation in the Tour. Please keep in mind, Rasmussan was telling them he was in Mexico as well. It was not until they connected the Italian dots that Rabobank realized this was bigger than just a mailing / notification issue. They had been lied to.

(b) A Union of cyclists will NOT help the situation. Please see MLB, NFL and NBA drug policies if you want to see what an entrenched group of elite athletes can do to thwart the good intentions of a league. It took congress essentially telling the MLB PLayers Union to shape up or they were going to take down the anti-trust agreement for baseball and really start to cause all sorts of problems for the union before the MLB Players Union agreed to more stringent testing.

(c) I think the ASO asking the WADA to take over testing for the ASO sponsored events is good news. The UCI has too much conflicts of interest to do their job effectively. Because they are paid and supported by the very teams they are policing, there is a vested interest by the UCI to protect the teams and their sponsors. This is why when someone tells me the UCI cleared someone's name from OP, I am highly suspect. The UCI only acts when an actual test pops up positive. Otherwise, they go out of their way to explain away someone's connection to Fuentes, Ferrari, or any other dubious character.

Remember - Birillo, Ullrich and others were banned from riding in the TdF last year, NOT other UCI sponsored events. Why did the UCI go along with these guys riding? Because essentially the UCI could be eliminated if the Teams all agree to form their own league, so the UCI has to tread carefully, a little too carefully.

To be clear, I'm in the all of the dope camp. I think he was likely doping, but I can also see the possibility that he wasn't. I believe firmly that you should prove he did dope, not that there's a good chance he did before giving the guy the boot.

If I want to fire one of my employees, I have to have documented evidence to support the decision. This includes reams of paper files, log notes etc. If I simply suspected an employee was doing something unethical and tried to fire them, I'd be the one that got the sack for not fully documenting the reasons.

I'm no fan of chicken (I like skeletor better BTW), but I think he got short-changed.

To be clear, I'm in the all of the dope camp. I think he was likely doping, but I can also see the possibility that he wasn't. I believe firmly that you should prove he did dope, not that there's a good chance he did before giving the guy the boot.

If I want to fire one of my employees, I have to have documented evidence to support the decision. This includes reams of paper files, log notes etc. If I simply suspected an employee was doing something unethical and tried to fire them, I'd be the one that got the sack for not fully documenting the reasons.

I'm no fan of chicken (I like skeletor better BTW), but I think he got short-changed.
One again, he did not get fired for doping.
He got fired for breaking the rules that he agreed contractually to follow, and trying to lie his way out of it.
According to the team manager, Ras himself admitted to lying about being in Mexico when he was Italy. In one report he denied ever admitting that, but now he has backed off on this.

Why would you question the decision of a team to choose to fire their star rider while he is in yellow at the Tour? If they could only find a reason to not fire him, I'm sure they would not have fired him.

According to the team manager, Ras himself admitted to lying about being in Mexico when he was Italy. In one report he denied ever admitting that, but now he has backed off on this. ...

Ras disputes this last I heard...I never heard the backing off. Last thing I heard was that only Ras and Rooj know what was said.

Anyone know whether the testers showed up in Italy on June 28 or Mexico?
If in Italy and if Rasmussen was in Italy, any idea why they didn't locate Rasmussen?

Anyone know whether the testers showed up in Italy on June 28 or Mexico?
If in Italy and if Rasmussen was in Italy, any idea why they didn't locate Rasmussen?

Last I looked Italy is a fair sized place. I'll bet I could hide from testers given all of Italy to hide in.

looks like someone hacked his email inbox and is trying to sell the information now.. ahahhahahahaaa!! cant wait to see what it says.

is rasmussen still credited with the win on the aubisque ?
i cant see why not because under tdf rules he wasnt excluded his team withdrew him

looks like someone hacked his email inbox and is trying to sell the information now.. ahahhahahahaaa!! cant wait to see what it says.

Where did you get this piece of information?

Where did you get this piece of information?

Link (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/aug07/aug01news)

is rasmussen still credited with the win on the aubisque ?
i cant see why not because under tdf rules he wasnt excluded his team withdrew him

Yes.

It's a withdrawal, not a DQ.
Same result as McEwen.
Rasmussen still gets the stage 8 victory too.

Since he didn't complete, he loses the polka dot points and being the runnerup in the competition he won the two preceding years.

The best part is, that one man's testimony was made on national television before the controversy even started. Prior to the Danish Team's announcement, the former Italian cyclist (working as a commentator on a European television broadcast covering the Tour) mentioned meeting Rasmussan at the top of some mountain in the Dolomites. He mentioned this casually in part as he was praising Michael Rasmussan.

Only after the Danish authorities announced the infractions did this comment become controversial. I think too many people have the timeline screwed up. They think the guy claimed to have seen Rasmussan AFTER the controversy broke out.I didn't know that. Now THAT is interesting.

Your dissertation contains multiple contradictions. Rasmussen took risks by disobeying the rules his employers set and was fired by them as soon as they had proof of that. I would have done the same, to him and to any other employee that would lie to me.

They all doped simple as that.
Ras played a game that he could never win and the Rabobank did a good job to fire him although they could win the TDF. He was my favorite but he failed.
Contrador was on the list of Fuentes but the Spanish authority's somehow screwed around with the list.
Vino, Mayo were caught this year while Landis was caught last year.
They should be dismissed for life!

Newbie with 1 post.

Chicken, is this you? If not, this person is pretty much parroting MR's talking points. Must be a friend/family member.

What on earth does it matter whether or not I've posted before? Can't see the relevance of that remark.

Many of you here focus on the issue of whether or not MR has lied to his team or not. And somehow accordingly, many of you judge him on suspicions alone (for as it is, you cannot prove neither). As I see it many of you seem provoked by what you concieve as MR's moral mediocrity.

Sure, to some extent this IS a question of morals and ethics. But if we get hung up on this perspective only, we loose sight of what is right and fair. MR should not lie (if that is the case at all) to his sponsors or his team and he SHOULD live up to what is expected of him. But the base line is: What is the proportionality of the crime/punishment? Administrative punishment was suffient and fair. Withdrawing him from the Tour (and the Tour's support of the withdrawal) was not.

And that ruins the Tour. More so than riders taking dope.

I know that sounds absurd to some of you. But think it through. Doping - like others form of cheating - will always be a part of sports. A zero tolerance is a nice idea, but depending on how you uphold this ideal it can easily become an unrealistic and naive ideal. What you need is constructive, effective and fair means to fight cheating. Not moral righteousness and actions fueled only on rumours and heresay.

I urge more people to fight to maintain all what is good about the tour. And to focus just a little bit less on the riders themselves. We have doctors and testers out there to catch the bad apples. We have systems to oversee their training. We have rules, sanctions and a judicial administration to secure the riders are dealed with fair and square. So please rely on these systems and pay more attention on the sport.

-mlv

In your tiny avatar, is that Marco Pantani?

the late marco pantani -- who claimed he didn't dope and later died of a cocaine overdose -- being chased by the devil :eek:.

ed rader

mlv: you say in one paragraph that we should not be so hard on ras as he just broke a few administrative rules, he was not proven to be doping.

then in the last paragraph you say that the TdF riders should obey the rules and sanctions in place to "oversee their training". well, that's exactly wht those rules were for. two missed tests in a row is certainly suspicious of doping, especially when he lied to his team, twice, to not get tested. which way do you want us to play? So we should go WITH the rules at all times except where ras is disenfranchised, in which case we should NOT apply our anti-doping rules? get your story and your position straight.

mlv: you say in one paragraph that we should not be so hard on ras as he just broke a few administrative rules, he was not proven to be doping.

then in the last paragraph you say that the TdF riders should obey the rules and sanctions in place to "oversee their training". well, that's exactly wht those rules were for. two missed tests in a row is certainly suspicious of doping, especially when he lied to his team, twice, to not get tested. which way do you want us to play? So we should go WITH the rules at all times except where ras is disenfranchised, in which case we should NOT apply our anti-doping rules? get your story and your position straight.

You are completely of the mark. Things are never black and white. There are always issues of proportionality that you have to take into account - thats what I'm arguing.

What I'm saying with regards to MR is that his punishment doesn't fit his crime. There are rules and sanctions already there. Yes. Steps were taken against MR. Yes - and these steps were fair and in accordance with the rules. BUT there is NO rule that says, that he could or should be disqualified or in any other way thrown out prematurely on grounds of suspicion and heresay alone.

And yet that's what happened.

Without proof you cannot administer punishment. What you CAN do is punish him accordingly to what you know for fact. That he missed the tests.

So why am I defending someone with all theses suspiciouns clinging to him? Because I fear that what happened at the Tour 2007 will happen again. And then the sport will suffer. Now it's Contador they're looking into - already sneering at him without any hard proof whatsoever. It's just circumstancial. How clean must these riders be before the amateur sporting press and an uptight public opinion can relax and relish in their own moral rightousness and besserwisse?

-mlv

How much cleaner? Apparently a lot cleaner than they are.

Rasmussen lied and lied and lied and lied. No actual proof of doping but people have been sent to jail on circumstantial evidence too.

I think he is a big jerk. He lied to an ex friend about shoes and drugs and tried to get him to do something illegal such as bringing blood doping products on a plane.

Where do you get off feeling sorry for this POS?

The dopers are giving cycling a bad name and not the other way around. Would you let your kid go into pro cycling? I wouldn't.

Take off the fan blinders. The guy is too anal to miss controls without having a reason to.

I guess Ras has a legitimate gripe when you consider the timing of his dismissal, he probably should have been dismissed or excluded from the Tour before it started.

MR is simple a liar...we are not sure why he lied but we know he lied.....

By the way lying is against the rules...SO he broke the rules.....

MR is simple a liar...we are not sure why he lied but we know he lied.....

By the way lying is against the rules...SO he broke the rules.....

Erm, yeah, maybe. The point is that he already was punished. He recieved adminstrative punishment according to regulations. What happened went to far. The part about lying to his team is not resolved yet - MR maintains that he didn't. So again, things aren't black and white.

Regarding being accused with only circumstancial evidence: Arguing that people go to jail on circumstancial evidence only - and that this should justify that MR should be thrown out of the tour - is just plain silly. Judging people on circumstancial evidence only is NOT the way to go. Sure it happens, but you should ALWAYS try and break the case with hard facts. Right?

And yes OF COURSE I would let my kid get into pro cycling. Jeez. This is what I'm talking about. An irrational, moralistic public opinion fueled with self-righteousness is far more dangerous than a lying, doped yellow jersey. Next you'll be arguing that riders with a criminal history has no place in the tour.

-mlv

The facts are simple.
RM was fired because he broke the rules of the Rabobank, not other than that.
He lied and therefore brought the Rabobank in a position that action was needed to keep their reliability.
If the press and all the others were not pushing so hard he would have never been fired.

If the RM wasn't redraw from the TDF the Rabobank would not get a invitation by the ASO for next year.
If RM wasn't in the yellow jersey he probably wouldn’t been fired at all but maybe just redraw from the tdf.

There's a Dutch saying about this: "High trees catch the most wind" and that's just what happened.

There's a Dutch saying about this: "High trees catch the most wind" and that's just what happened.
how would you say that in Dutch? I know tree is boom and wind is wind.

Hoge bomen vangen veel wind.

Hoge bomen vangen veel wind.

dank je

Hoge bomen vangen veel wind.

Ride in the drops.


That should be a metaphor for life.

The facts are simple.
RM was fired because he broke the rules of the Rabobank, not other than that.
He lied and therefore brought the Rabobank in a position that action was needed to keep their reliability.
If the press and all the others were not pushing so hard he would have never been fired.

If the RM wasn't redraw from the TDF the Rabobank would not get a invitation by the ASO for next year.
If RM wasn't in the yellow jersey he probably wouldn’t been fired at all but maybe just redraw from the tdf.

There's a Dutch saying about this: "High trees catch the most wind" and that's just what happened.

The extent of any revelation about Ras lying to his team is an allegation from a team manager that Ras lied-an allegation Ras denies. This team manager resigned which certainly puts the manager's disputed allegations under question.

ASO has no standing to be concerned with whether Ras lied to his team-thats an internal matter within the Rabobank team. ASO's concern would be whether Ras committed fraud by misleading the testers about his whereabouts creating a missed test during the window .

If the Ras would not have been fired but for the yellow jersey as you allege-that certainly suggests interference from outside the team which might suggest the team manager may not be on the up and up about the lying to the team. Rabobank should be concerned with actual lying independent of whether Ras is in the yellow.

If Rabobank fired Ras because of pressure from ASO about being invited to the Tour next year (although as a Pro Tour team they are supposed to have an automatic invite), that also suggests interference from outside the team.

I thought that Tour organizers complained not about him missing two tests, but about him missing tests within 45 days of the Tour. Supposedly UCI turned blind eye on that infraction, claiming even that this rule was about to be dropped anyway, and hence not enforced.

I think it's not a question of French wanting to have French winner again, but rather of Tour organizers being convinced every top rider dopes, and trying to remove everyone "guilty". No matter how.

Weird about Mayo positive for EPO. Why so many doping busts this year?

He missed one test within 45 days of the Tour on June 28. If Ras was using steroids or EPO in his training regimen, since the steroids and EPO would pass from his system while still retaining the benefit to his muscles and hemocrit.

The March missed test would have been less of a concern for the Tour, since a doping targetting the Tour would take place in the month of June which roughly coincides the 45 day window you cite. If Ras was doping in March, he would have risked random detection for lesser competitive gain in the Tour.

Mayo was tested on a rest day after he was significantly dropped. He probably figured it was a good day to take some EPO since there was less testing on the rest day and hope the EPO passed his system by the mountain stage and any testing due his finishing. He appears to have been under suspicion previously, so may have been targetted for testing that day under speculation of that very activity.

Vino tested positive for a test that had only been previously performed by the Athens and Lasaunne labs, not LNDD, so the speculation is he thought he was not being tested for homologous transfusions.

The others were primarily out of competition tests revealed during or on the eve of the Tour.