FYI -

http://cityofpasadena.net/councilagendas/2007%20agendas/Jul_30_07/5E1.pdf

Hmm, I was in the wrong forum, could a mod move this to socal?

Wow, John. Thanks for posting. Big news, at least for the local scene.

You may want to inform the LACBC and CICLE, see what they recommend we do as a community.

This was inevitable. Whether it will take hold or not remains to be seen, but with the amount of pedestrian traffic out there, it isn't surprising.

I believe they've brought this up on numerous occassions over the years. Let's see what happens with this latest proposal.

Well, this wouldn't be the first time that a city has tried to regulate group rides by considering them an "assemblage or procession". This has been beaten back elsewhere in the state, looks like there's some work to do here too.

If there's issues with the endangering pedestrians and also crossing the centerline, those can be addressed with existing laws. A two abreast ordinance would do nothing - except give the police a stick to harass cyclists.

All bicyclists shall proceed in the same direction as vehicle traffic and may ride as near to the left - hand curb or edge of the roadway as practicable avoiding at all times any and all pedestrian lanes in recreational areas.

Is this correct wording? Also, does the peloton move at or near the speed limit of the roadway?

Also, since this event has been occurring for multiple years, maybe bicyclists could get something started to allow the peloton to continue and get participants to sign an agreement requiring them to stay in one lane of traffic only (and out of the pedestrian areas). That would signal to the city council that bicyclists are willing to try to police themselves.

Maybe the police could ticket people that are outside the allowed lane of traffic and have larger fines for those caught...

I have not been out there to watch, I intend to as I understand it is quite a sight.

The following VC may apply depending if the peloton is going the speed of traffic (I have actually heard it argued that since the peloton IS the traffic, by definition they are going at the speed of traffic)

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21208.htm
21208. (a) Whenever a bicycle lane has been established on a roadway pursuant to Section 21207, any person operating a bicycle upon the roadway at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at that time shall ride within the bicycle lane, except that the person may move out of the lane under any of the following situations:
(1) When overtaking and passing another bicycle, vehicle, or pedestrian within the lane or about to enter the lane if the overtaking and passing cannot be done safely within the lane.
(2) When preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.
(3) When reasonably necessary to leave the bicycle lane to avoid debris or other hazardous conditions.
(4) When approaching a place where a right turn is authorized.
(b) No person operating a bicycle shall leave a bicycle lane until the movement can be made with reasonable safety and then only after giving an appropriate signal in the manner provided in Chapter 6 (commencing with Section 22100) in the event that any vehicle may be affected by the movement

I find it kind of odd ... about 15 years ago, they specifically changed the striping of the lanes to make it wider in the lane where the pelaton would normally be traversing. The lane didn't used to be that wide. Now, they are trying to revert that frame of mind. If they are going through with this, will they actually give tickets to all 160 cyclists who are riding 6 abreast going down Huntington and eventually Foothill Blvd? IMHO, Montrose Saturday rides are more dangerous in the ped vs. cyclist scenario.

Sorry, I had to get that off my chest.

Yeah, I saw that reference to the left hand side. They must have copied and pasted the part of the law related to riding on the left side of a one way street (not applicable here).

If the peleton has 50-75 people, then they ARE going the speed of traffic and exempt from CVC 21202. They didn't quote all of CVC 21202. (Edit: CVC 21208 doesn't apply here if there's no bike lane, so 21202 would apply. I haven't been up there in a while, so I don't remember the striping.)

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21202.htm

21202. (a) Any person operating a bicycle upon a roadway at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at that time shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway except under any of the following situations:

Good suggestions.

I think two abreast would actually be worse, because then it would stretch out the pack and be worse for traffic.

As an example, if the peloton is going 35 and the speed limit is 35, I do not think an ordinance prohibiting riding 6 abreast is valid. Note there is no ordinance against lane sharing (cars, motorcycles, or bicycles).

Two abreast, the paceline will stretch a mile long...:p

For those not familiar with the Rose Bowl, I shot this clip a couple of months ago. The peloton is usually larger than this on average.

Rose Bowl "pelaton" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPzWULw-nBU) :)

They're trying to call the peleton a "procession or assemblage" to justify regulation under CVC 21100. That's the same law that allows them to regulate parades. But a collection of individual cyclists on a public road is not a parade. Otherwise, if I were driving to the auto mechanic and my wife was driving behind me, then we'd be a "procession".

When I drive my vehicle on the street I am traffic. It doesnt matter which vehicle I use. Truck, car, motorcycle, bicycle, etc. If they want to make a distintion they should call one group motorized vehicles.

I'm not familiar with the area, but from where I've seen it done, the "peloton's" usually disregard other traffic on the road. From the sounds of it, they're doing a loop, which includes some turns, and I wouldn't be surprised if they're blowing the stop signs/ traffic lights on the turns. I've watched them at down here split cars at 25+ (speed limit 25) and scare the crap out of people who go to Fiesta Island on Thursday nights. Fiesta Island is a 1 way loop around the island, and in generally it's safe to do, but it's when they come up on traffic or other cyclists and runners that there's been issues in the past. A jogger was put into the hospital a few years ago after being hit by the Peloton. Again, I don't know the area, but if they ride like the guys down here, it's surprising it's not shut down. Most all sanctioned races are done on closed streets, and it sounds like they're doing it on a road shared with the public with disregard for other vehicles/pedestrians.

Two abreast, the paceline will stretch a mile long...:p

For those not familiar with the Rose Bowl, I shot this clip a couple of months ago. The peloton is usually larger than this on average.

Rose Bowl "pelaton" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPzWULw-nBU) :)

Nice video George, it does show a bike lane. The pdf from Pasadena referred to it as a Pedestrian Lane".

So, how fast does the peloton go?

I think two abreast would actually be worse, because then it would stretch out the pack and be worse for traffic.

+ 1. This would only stretch out the ride and casue further frustration with auto traffic.

I don't see how riding two abreast is going to do anything to prevent any pedestrian /and cyclists accidents as well.

meh it wont pass

Nice video George, it does show a bike lane. The pdf from Pasadena referred to it as a Pedestrian Lane".

So, how fast does the peloton go?

That bike lane is actually a pedestrian lane. They're supposed to walk against traffic, in reality, people walk both directions in that lane.

I think they're usually going between 25 and 35mph.

From the sounds of it, they're doing a loop, which includes some turns, and I wouldn't be surprised if they're blowing the stop signs/ traffic lights on the turns.

Nope, there aren't any stop signs or lights, it's a continuous loop in the direction they go.

I'm so glad Mark gave an opposing opinion on this as I didn't want to be the first one. :o But reality is, if a pedestrian ever gets killed, the Rose Bowl and City of Pasadena could be sued. Whether it would be thrown out of court isn't important, because the legal fees alone could cost the Bowl/city a good deal. Not to mention the pedestrians who are exposed. When out there walking and jogging, they expect us riders to watch out for them. With the Peloton flying around corners, I'm actually amazed more crashes and incidents haven't occurred. When I ride around the bowl, which isn't often as it is so boring, it stricks me how clueless Peds are. They are often chatting and zoned out wearing IPODS, with little yappy dogs on long leashes and so forth. They also run/walk/blade in both directions, so there is no expected flow of Ped traffic. Do I think that is right? No. Do I think there are some real idiots out there? Yes. But is doesn't change the fact that a group of 50+ cyclists flying around the bowl poses a real threat to those Peds - thus, the complaints. Cars typically slow down when riding around the bowl (at least that's what I've witnessed), so I would garner that they are typically moving between 15-25 mph (which is what I believe they should be doing based on the law), but the Peloton is known to get up to 35 mph - which, correct me if I'm wrong, is illegal when driving within the vicinity of Pedestrians (really, correct me if I'm wrong :p)

The timing isn't good for them considering that the Amgen Tour of Ca just announced last week that their final stage will end at the Rosebowl.

The timing isn't good for them considering that the Amgen Tour of Ca just announced last week that their final stage will end at the Rosebowl.

Yeah, but I bet they'll close the roads down to Pedestrians for that. So, that won't be viewed as an equal issue.

That bike lane is actually a pedestrian lane. They're supposed to walk against traffic, in reality, people walk both directions in that lane.

I think they're usually going between 25 and 35mph.

Oh OK, thanks...

I should back out of this thread because I have not even been there.

Nice video George, it does show a bike lane. The pdf from Pasadena referred to it as a Pedestrian Lane".

So, how fast does the peloton go?

Actually, it is a pedestrian lane, and clearly marked "PEDS ONLY" with an arrow pointing against traffic. But there are also posted signs indicating that this is a bike lane.....so that's somewhat confusing.....therefore it's a MUP?

They generally do 10 laps around the perimeter of the Rose Bowl/golf course which is exactly 3.1 miles per lap, that's a total of 31 miles which on average takes them just over 65 minutes to complete. They do reach speeds of 37-38mph on the club house side regularly though.

I'm not familiar with the area, but from where I've seen it done, the "peloton's" usually disregard other traffic on the road. From the sounds of it, they're doing a loop, which includes some turns, and I wouldn't be surprised if they're blowing the stop signs/ traffic lights on the turns. I've watched them at down here split cars at 25+ (speed limit 25) and scare the crap out of people who go to Fiesta Island on Thursday nights. Fiesta Island is a 1 way loop around the island, and in generally it's safe to do, but it's when they come up on traffic or other cyclists and runners that there's been issues in the past. A jogger was put into the hospital a few years ago after being hit by the Peloton. Again, I don't know the area, but if they ride like the guys down here, it's surprising it's not shut down. Most all sanctioned races are done on closed streets, and it sounds like they're doing it on a road shared with the public with disregard for other vehicles/pedestrians.

Actually the controversial Fiesta Island accident was not with a "jogger", but an elite women marathoner (Tamara Lave) as she was in final preparations for the Chicago Marathon. Her coach, Kevin McCarey raised a big stink in the local papers about the behavior of the cyclists.

Yeah, but I bet they'll close the roads down to Pedestrians for that. So, that won't be viewed as an equal issue.

Nah, you're not getting what I'm saying... Pasadena's going to upset the very people that would want to come to the RB to see the ToC.

Nah, you're not getting what I'm saying... Pasadena's going to upset the very people that would want to come to the RB to see the ToC.

I doubt those 50-75 cyclists who will be upset over no Peloton are going to make a dent in the number of those spectators who will show up at the Rose Bowl for the ToC.

I doubt those 50-75 cyclists who will be upset over no Peloton are going to make a dent in the number of those spectators who will show up at the Rose Bowl for the ToC.

You think it's always the same 50-75?

They represent a lot of different clubs and organizations. Also, this isn't just THIS peloton that effected, it's all other groups that ride there. In fact, it was because of the PTC that I found out about this.

You think it's always the same 50-75?

They represent a lot of different clubs and organizations. Also, this isn't just THIS peloton that effected, it's all other groups that ride there. In fact, it was because of the PTC that I found out about this.

John? Are YOU going to boycott watching the ToC at the Rose Bowl if this ordinance passes?

The timing isn't good for them considering that the Amgen Tour of Ca just announced last week that their final stage will end at the Rosebowl.
This has actually been on the agenda for a while. I remember hearing about it back in April when the ride was just starting up again this year. There is a thread about it over at the socalcycling.com forum where someone suggests not supporting the Tour of Ca in Pasadena if they don't want to let cyclists train there (I'm not saying I agree with that). The pedestrian lane at the Rose Bowl is scary since there are Peds traveling in different directions at different speeds (walkers, joggers, runners, roller bladers, people with kids, people pushing strollers, recreational bike riders, etc..) Many of the people using the pedestrian lane are on phones, talking or listening to Ipods and many that are travelling clockwise (with traffic) do not look behind them when passing others and stepping out into the traffic lane. Others will just walk straight toward you, three feet out into the traffic lane. The roads were restriped and traffic signs were changed about 15 years ago when the city was trying to accommodate the ride. I'm not sure what they will do this time. The Saturday Montrose ride is dangerous in its own way , but I do that ride much more than I do the Rose Bowl and I know I have seen far less ped vs. cyclist incidents on the Montrose ride.

Isn't is spelled Peloton?

Isn't is spelled Peloton?

Yes. :rolleyes::p

John? Are YOU going to boycott watching the ToC at the Rose Bowl if this ordinance passes?

It depends... If the city decides they're going to start policing the bowl and does something about the idiots running in the middle of the street and all the other problems there, I'll go. If they're going to just target the cyclists, I'll stay home.

It depends... If the city decides they're going to start policing the bowl and does something about the idiots running in the middle of the street and all the other problems there, I'll go. If they're going to just target the cyclists, I'll stay home.

Well isn't saying that they are targeting the cyclists hyperbole? In truth, they are targeting the PELOTON as it exists with 6 abreast speeding around the bowl with Pedestrians who, as idiotic as they can be, need to be protected more so than the Peloton needs the Rose Bowl for their use. The letter doesn't ask that cyclists not be allowed to ride around the bowl or to stop racing even, just that they be required to ride 2 abreast. With that said, I didn't complain and I'm not going to. But I'm also not going to fight for the Peloton's rights as is. And I am going to go watch the ToC over there if I can. :p

You think it's always the same 50-75?

They represent a lot of different clubs and organizations. Also, this isn't just THIS peloton that effected, it's all other groups that ride there. In fact, it was because of the PTC that I found out about this.

It's also not just this ride that will be affected. I've received a ticket on the Montrose ride for running a stop sign. Did I run the stop sign? Yes. Were there any other cars in the T-intersection? No. The Glendora Police were running a "sting" (their words), because residents had complained. They were trying to dissuade us from using their public roads. That part of the ride has very light traffic on a Saturday morning at 9:40, but a few residents were upset that they were being inconvenienced by the "peloton". If Pasadena passes this ordinance, other cities may follow and you may not be able to enjoy riding with more than 2 or 3 of your friends in a single file line. My brother in law received a ticket on PCH last year because he was riding with one other person and they were not single file. It came down to the fact that residents had complained that cyclists were obstructing traffic. I doubt he was obstructing traffic because he makes his living racing his bicycle and the last thing he wants to do is get hit by a car.
I'm not arguing that the Rose Bowl isn't dangerous, but it is funny to me that cyclists should be the ones to suffer. I could go out there tomorrow and during the ride, I could easily point out ten pedestrians that aren't staying in the ped lane or behaving in a safe manner. There are also some freddy cyclists that try to pass in the ped lane or ride into oncoming traffic, but they are usually dealt with by the group.

Wouldn't it be ironic if their solution to the problem is to actually close down the road and let the cyclists have it for an hour twice a week, no peds or autos. That would solve the problem, somehow I doubt that solution will be proposed.

Actually the controversial Fiesta Island accident was not with a "jogger", but an elite women marathoner (Tamara Lave) as she was in final preparations for the Chicago Marathon. Her coach, Kevin McCarey raised a big stink in the local papers about the behavior of the cyclists.

But still she was hit while jogging. They get bent if a car is going slower than them and swarm it. If you've been there, you've seen them swarm cars, etc. I forgot about it a few weeks ago and got caught out on the recumbent. I think it bothered them more than me, as it took a LOOONG time to pass me. :) The mentality in the group is that they own the road, the reality is that it's a public road and other people have use for it. Yes, it's fun to sit in the group and get sucked along at 30+. But when the group threatens the safety of people outside the group, then it's an issue. Sanctioned races get road closures. Other groups do training like that in industrial parks after hours where there's no traffic/peds. From the sounds of it, the Rose Bowl is similar to Fiesta Island.

Well isn't saying that they are targeting the cyclists hyperbole? In truth, they are targeting the PELOTON as it exists with 6 abreast speeding around the bowl with Pedestrians who, as idiotic as they can be, need to be protected more so than the Peloton needs the Rose Bowl for their use. The letter doesn't ask that cyclists not be allowed to ride around the bowl or to stop racing even, just that they be required to ride 2 abreast. With that said, I didn't complain and I'm not going to. But I'm also not going to fight for the Peloton's rights as is. And I am going to go watch the ToC over there if I can. :p

As I said, it isn't just the Peloton, there are other groups that ride there that this would effect.

But reality is, if a pedestrian ever gets killed, the Rose Bowl and City of Pasadena could be sued. Whether it would be thrown out of court isn't important, because the legal fees alone could cost the Bowl/city a good deal.
I don't think the fear of lawsuits is driving this. Cities have more frivolous lawsuits to deal with than bike/ped collisions. It's probably happening because of the complaints.

Cars typically slow down when riding around the bowl (at least that's what I've witnessed), so I would garner that they are typically moving between 15-25 mph (which is what I believe they should be doing based on the law), but the Peloton is known to get up to 35 mph - which, correct me if I'm wrong, is illegal when driving within the vicinity of Pedestrians (really, correct me if I'm wrong :p)
The pedestrian concerns are real and need to be addressed. But there's no law against going 35 mph, as long as it is at or below the posted speed limit and the conditions are safe to do so. Now if the peleton is riding 35 mph and passing within inches of pedestrians, then that's a different story.

It's also not just this ride that will be affected. I've received a ticket on the Montrose ride for running a stop sign. Did I run the stop sign? Yes. Were there any other cars in the T-intersection? No. The Glendora Police were running a "sting" (their words), because residents had complained. They were trying to dissuade us from using their public roads. That part of the ride has very light traffic on a Saturday morning at 9:40, but a few residents were upset that they were being inconvenienced by the "peloton". If Pasadena passes this ordinance, other cities may follow and you may not be able to enjoy riding with more than 2 or 3 of your friends in a single file line. My brother in law received a ticket on PCH last year because he was riding with one other person and they were not single file. It came down to the fact that residents had complained that cyclists were obstructing traffic. I doubt he was obstructing traffic because he makes his living racing his bicycle and the last thing he wants to do is get hit by a car.
I'm not arguing that the Rose Bowl isn't dangerous, but it is funny to me that cyclists should be the ones to suffer. I could go out there tomorrow and during the ride, I could easily point out ten pedestrians that aren't staying in the ped lane or behaving in a safe manner. There are also some freddy cyclists that try to pass in the ped lane or ride into oncoming traffic, but they are usually dealt with by the group.

Make it a 1 hour "Peloton" show. From 6:30 to 7:30 pm on Tues and Thursday's everyone stops, sits, stays where they are and enjoys it. When their done, stand and move! Cars arriving after 6:30 will be routed away from the loop until the "show" is done!

I'm buying Dilly Bars in bulk and selling them for $4.00 a pop:D

Wouldn't it be ironic if their solution to the problem is to actually close down the road and let the cyclists have it for an hour twice a week, no peds or autos. That would solve the problem, somehow I doubt that solution will be proposed.Don't forget the golfers with their golf carts....:D

This has actually been on the agenda for a while. I remember hearing about it back in April when the ride was just starting up again this year. There is a thread about it over at the socalcycling.com forum where someone suggests not supporting the Tour of Ca in Pasadena if they don't want to let cyclists train there (I'm not saying I agree with that). The pedestrian lane at the Rose Bowl is scary since there are Peds traveling in different directions at different speeds (walkers, joggers, runners, roller bladers, people with kids, people pushing strollers, recreational bike riders, etc..) Many of the people using the pedestrian lane are on phones, talking or listening to Ipods and many that are travelling clockwise (with traffic) do not look behind them when passing others and stepping out into the traffic lane. Others will just walk straight toward you, three feet out into the traffic lane. The roads were restriped and traffic signs were changed about 15 years ago when the city was trying to accommodate the ride. I'm not sure what they will do this time. The Saturday Montrose ride is dangerous in its own way , but I do that ride much more than I do the Rose Bowl and I know I have seen far less ped vs. cyclist incidents on the Montrose ride.


why you gotta hate the peds yo?

Just in case any of you are interested in attending ...

Pasadena City Council
Monday, July 30
6:30 PM, Public Meeting
Council Chamber, Pasadena City Hall
100 North Garfield Avenue, Room S249

NOTE ITEM 5E1

5. REPORTS AND COMMENTS FROM COUNCIL COMMITTEES
E. Public Safety Committee
(1) PELATON BICYCLISTS - ROSE BOWL

Recommendation of Rose Bowl Operating Company: It is recommended
that the City Council approve and direct the City Attorney's
Office to prepare a City ordinance to prohibit bicyclists from riding
more
than two abreast on any public street in the City other than pursuant to
a City permit issued for an event or activity, including the area around
the Rose Bowl.

Agenda: http://cityofpasade na.net/councilag endas/2007% 20agendas/
Jul_30_07/agenda. asp

Staff Report: http://cityofpasade na.net/councilag endas/2007%
20agendas/Jul_ 30_07/5E1. pdf

I'm not arguing that the Rose Bowl isn't dangerous, but it is funny to me that cyclists should be the ones to suffer. I could go out there tomorrow and during the ride, I could easily point out ten pedestrians that aren't staying in the ped lane or behaving in a safe manner. There are also some freddy cyclists that try to pass in the ped lane or ride into oncoming traffic, but they are usually dealt with by the group.

Yeah...there are many in the pack who will let someone know if what they're doing is dangerous and could adversely effect the Tue/Thu ride.

I kind of would like to see everyone who has ever done the RB Ride show up on one night together, and we could do a double paceline. The length of it would be well over a mile as someone rightly said. I bet it would pose different problems as well.

The Pasadena notice, though, has it wrong. Six cyclists does not take over both lanes of roadway. I regularly ride there and there's usually 3-4 of us on one side, and that's not going into the pedway or crossing the centerline.

Also, two abreast, unless we're overtaking someone else (according to the law)? Well, that's what is constantly happening in a pack already. Very rarely are 3 or more riding abreast. We're all in a state of overtaking/being overtaken. So, we really wouldn't be violating this rule anyway. ::shrug::

lets just ban cyclist from riding in the RoseBowl altogether.

As I said, it isn't just the Peloton, there are other groups that ride there that this would effect.

But it's not cyclists as a whole. I can still go ride around it all I want as can you and any other rider. They are not saying stop all cyclists from riding. But there has to be a happy medium. I wish they WOULD police the Pedestrians, but it's easier to police cyclists for one thing, and for another, typically Pedestrians don't pose a risk of crashing into other peds and killing them. The safety factor in this can't be ignored as frustrating as it is to those who enjoy the Peloton and other "similiar" group rides that you allude to. :o

the other day I was strolling through the rosebowl, listenin to mah pimp ipod...Blastin those tunes so hard I was entranced by the music!

I was walkin all crazy like, dancing in the street, while these poseur cyclist(probably thinking they are trying out for the tour de alaska) ZOOM by me and make me fall down. Not only do they think they are special but they thought I was scum of the earth... I think its because they don't like my race. They're racist, thats it.

Ban cyclist from the rosebowl now so I can enjoy my pimptastic musik with my peepz

The pedestrian concerns are real and need to be addressed. But there's no law against going 35 mph, as long as it is at or below the posted speed limit and the conditions are safe to do so. Now if the peleton is riding 35 mph and passing within inches of pedestrians, then that's a different story.

They typically do pass within inches, Brian, and that is the problem. I've seen it and I've been buzzed myself while on my bike (before hightailing it out of there as I try to avoid the Peloton at all costs). Also, does anyone know the actual speed limit around the bowl? I thought it would be 25 due to Ped walking lane, parking lots and Ped crossings. Am I wrong?