Advocacy & Safety - Intolerance, Discrimination and Prejudice

I notice that some of you seem pretty upset about intolerance, discrimination and prejudice against bicyclists by the general motoring public. I refer to the thread on the Joyce Morrison article. Joyce, as you may recall, encountered a road racing or touring club resplendent in their spandex outfits while she was motoring to church one fine Sunday morning and later vociferously complained in print that these cyclists were blocking her right-of-way, and should be banned from the public roads. Well, as far as Joyce was concerned, those riders in their spandex outfits appeared as silly to her as Critical Massers in their underwear and costumes probably would have.

So it really upsets me to read what all you 'superior' and 'enlightened' cyclists are saying about Critical Mass and the cyclists who participate--your attitudes towards Critical Mass are exactly the same as the intolerant, discriminatory and prejudiced attitude that Joyce Morrison displayed towards the club cyclists she encountered--as if y'all were Brahmins and Critical Mass participants were Untouchables, or y'all were Dr. Seuss' Star-Bellied Sneetches, and Critical Massers had none.

The truth is--and you can object all you want--Critical Mass isn't really that different than any other group or club ride, silly-looking clothes included.

As cyclists we all have a common goal--access to, and safety and equality with motorists on our public roads--and I find your prejudicial attitude and lack of solidarity with Critical Mass to be particularly deplorable and offensive. At the very least, as the saying goes: 'if you don't have anything nice to say about Critical Mass, please don't say anything at all.'

Your dead wrong. Critical mass will serve to divide cyclists and motorists even further and if you don't realize that you need to go get your screws tightened.

When I read about doing critical mass events it is inevitable that the dominant objective is to impede and disrupt in order to gain attention for "the cause".

Take you and your cause and go elsewhere. We responsible cyclists do not want or need your gang style protests. I guess your going to say that rioting in the streets is ok if it is for "the cause".

Go to a public park or a open feild and have a critical mass gathering if it is all inocent and fun but don't clog rush hour streets and claim to be fighting for my rights as a cyclist.

I am capable of defending my rights without the added benifit of association with CM types.

Joyce is a moron. And those who think they may change Joyces opinion by impedeing traffic with hundreds of riders blocking the road are even bigger morons.

Well. I think that CM gets a bad rap over the few publicized confrontations that have occurred. When I consider that CM rides take place all over the world every month and rarely do the rides lead to conflict or violence I would end up thinking that the rides can't be too disruptive or chaotic.

In 2000 I took place in one of the largest Critical Mass rides on the planet. This ride snaked through all 5 boros of NYC as 50,000 cyclists blocked entire streets and parkways from motorized traffic. This happens every year and is given the name BIKE NEW YORK. I doubt most of the riders consider Bike New York to be a Critical Mass ride in fact many probably dislike the whole idea of CM.

As for large groups of cyclists riding in pacelines or several abreast, It is hard for motorists to safely pass these large groups on a two lane road. I feel that cyclists need to address this and ride appropriately.

So overall I have nothing against Critical Mass, but I do wonder what exactly it accomplishes. Does CM initiate more people into the cycling world? Does it encourage cyclists to become involved in advocacy? Is it just a place for cyclists to come together and connect?

Originally posted by thbirks

In 2000 I took place in one of the largest Critical Mass rides on the planet. This ride snaked through all 5 boros of NYC as 50,000 cyclists blocked entire streets and parkways from motorized traffic. This happens every year and is given the name BIKE NEW YORK. I doubt most of the riders consider Bike New York to be a Critical Mass ride in fact many probably dislike the whole idea of CM.


I've said it before but I'll say it again. There's a subtle but very important difference between an organised ride like Bike New York which has participation and cooperation of the city and law enforcement officials and CM events which have "special participation" by the law enforcement officials. One works within the bounds of society's laws to affect education and promote cycling while the other goes well out of its way to antogonise a good majority of society by rebelling against accepted laws.

Originally posted by thbirks


As for large groups of cyclists riding in pacelines or several abreast, It is hard for motorists to safely pass these large groups on a two lane road. I feel that cyclists need to address this and ride appropriately.



Agreed. I always strive to allow normal traffic flow when I ride alone or with a group.

Now exactly what is done on critical mass rides to promote this philosophy?

Originally posted by khuon
I've said it before but I'll say it again. There's a subtle but very important difference between an organised ride like Bike New York which has participation and cooperation of the city and law enforcement officials and CM events which have "special participation" by the law enforcement officials. One works within the bounds of society's laws to affect education and promote cycling while the other goes well out of its way to antogonise a good majority of society by rebelling against accepted laws.

Thank you Khuon. Perfectly stated.

If you want to apply for a permit for a mass gathering of cyclists to chat and become friends then by all means do so. Anything outside this proper procedure is pretty much a mob protest.

Can anyone give me first-hand experiences of what exactly occurs at a Critical Mass ride. I have never participated in or witnessed a CM ride. From what I read the rides vary from city to city. Is the whole intent as some say to annoy motorists? Is there a way for a group of cyclists to ride together in a city without interferring with motorized traffic? Or is a parade permit needed for this?

Hmm, well. When summer comes around here in my part of the country, every Friday afternoon a large group of motorists start a seemingly unorganized migration from Pennsylvania, New York, other parts of New Jersey and elsewhere to an area know as the Jersey Shore. This Mass of vehicles clogs the Parkway, the turnpike and and any other route headed to the Atlantic Ocean. People who are just trying to get home from work, to the store, post office or where ever are delayed and annoyed by this endless stream of steel and humanity.

Is this a Critical Mass? What if flyers were handed out impluring people to make this migration every Friday?

Originally posted by thbirks

Is this a Critical Mass? What if flyers were handed out impluring people to make this migration every Friday?

Are they operating their vehicles unlawfully? Are they purposely impeding other traffic by blocking intersections even when the light changes in favour of cross-traffic? If not, I wouldn't call it the automobile version of Critical Mass. I would call it traffic congestion... a seperate problem in and of itself.

Originally posted by khuon
I've said it before but I'll say it again. There's a subtle but very important difference between an organised ride like Bike New York which has participation and cooperation of the city and law enforcement officials and CM events which have "special participation" by the law enforcement officials. One works within the bounds of society's laws to affect education and promote cycling while the other goes well out of its way to antogonise a good majority of society by rebelling against accepted laws.

Yes, that subtlety hasn't escaped my grasp. However, If I were a motorist attempting to get across town, would it matter to me that Bike New York operates with the cooperation of the city? I don't think this fact would allow me to keep my cool as I waited forever for thousands of cyclists to pass by. So does an event like this help the image of cyclists or does it damage it?

Originally posted by thbirks
Yes, that subtlety hasn't escaped my grasp. However, If I were a motorist attempting to get across town, would it matter to me that Bike New York operates with the cooperation of the city. I don't this fact would allow me to keep my cool as I waited forever for thousands of cyclists to pass by. So does an event like this help the image of cyclists or does it damage it?

Well, I can't speak for you but I know plenty of motorists who do understand. They can generally read the signs that say things like "Bicycle Event" and see the police doing proper control. Many of these events have traffic warnings issued beforehand so motorists should be well aware of them ahead of time. Would you expect many motorists to be pissed over say a Thanksgiving Day Parade?

http://www.neebu.net/~khuon/albums/2003STP-1/PICT0037.jpg

Or one of my favourite pictures...

http://www.neebu.net/~khuon/albums/visual_tao_of_cycling/bicycles_have_right_of_way_1.jpg

Originally posted by khuon
Are they operating their vehicles unlawfully? Are they purposely impeding other traffic by blocking intersections even when the light changes in favour of cross-traffic? If not, I wouldn't call it the automobile version of Critical Mass. I would call it traffic congestion... a seperate problem in and of itself.

Well, hardly anyone in Jersey operates a car in accordance with the written laws. But no I would say that majority are driving within the acceptable limits of the law; the unwritten code of the road. There are some morons who are endangering others by making illegal and dangerous passing attempts.

Not to be misunderstood, I am not defending Critical Mass. I am trying to understand what its appeal is and If those that slam CM have actual experience with the events or if they are just regurgitating what they have been told about it. So. You are saying that you have witnessed these rides and that riders were purposely blocking intersections in order to stop traffic?

I have a thought that CM appeals especially to young people, who want to change things and want that change immediately. "What do we want?" "______." "When do we want it?" "Now."

I think that as we get older we realize that genuine change takes time.

Oh, I fully understand that you're trying to understand the appeal of CM and I think your impressions now are pretty much accurate. And yes, much of the actions of CMers are unlawful and invasive. I believe you're right about CM rides being for those who are fed up and impatient. I do understand the frustrations but I also realise that two wrongs don't make a right (but three lefts do :) ) so I am opposed to the actions taken at most CM events. And yes I've seen these events first hand.

Thanks, Khuon. The great thing about bikeforums is that people can debate issues like this instead of just arguing.

Looks like critical mass threads have reached some sort of critical mass here lately.

Breaking the law. The law is not carved in stone. It is the dynamic system, perpetually in change.

There was once the law in Southern States that people with more skin pigmentation had to use the separate wash basin in public places. There was once the law, which could send the person to the labor camp in Siberia with little chance of safe return for expressing a dissenting view. The list of such laws could be endless.

These laws changed. They were not changed by the polite letters to representatives. They were changed by people, who got their noses bloody.

The law is written in letters, but it also has the spirit.

The endless stream of steel to the Jersey Shore is legal from the point of view of letters, but at the same time illegal by the higher law. The participants do not have to hand out fliers, the mass media does it for them. Spending like million dollars on one ad.

A family, which lives in the house adjacent to this endless stream of steel to the Jersey Shore, will suffer from the pollution. After exceeding the certain level the pollution gets people with 100% guarantee. Is not the law supposed to protect the health of such a family in the ideal world?

I saw on TV as people in Austria blocked the highway leading through their village for an hour protesting that the level of air contamination in the village exceeded the norm 22 times. Their action was formally illegal.

There are cyclists, who travel mainly on motorized vehicles, carrying bikes on the car rake. They come to the spot of the nice nature and cycle couple of kilometers there. As soon as there are many enough of their ilk coming to that spot the natural scenery gets degraded by the vast car parking lot around, by the fueling station, repairing services, etc. They select another spot and move on to degrade it too. Such motorists-cyclists will never want to understand the CM riders agenda, no matter what arguments the CM riders offer.

I saw enough of such cyclists at camping sites and "trail access points" in America and Europe. They are more motorists than the usual motorists, because they drive not only when they have to, but also for recreation on weekends.

One can take the zealot point of view and maintain that the laws are unjust... blah blah blah. I however feel that the laws are fine and do well to create an appropriate set of rules for cyclists and motorists alike. What CM tries to do is not change laws but change the social engineering and attitudes. However, they do so by breaking laws which in no way are designed to oppose the safe and proper use of bicycles. Once again, I'd point to folks such as those in The League of American Bicyclists as doing the proper thing with regards to advocating safe cycling rather than the antics of CM.

Originally posted by Allister
Looks like critical mass threads have reached some sort of critical mass here lately.

You noticed that too? And I thought I was the only one. Once again I pose the question of CM that nobody has satisfactorily answered in order to sway my viewpoint. What exactly has critical mass done to actually eliminate any of the things they are complaining about?

I mean, I just don't get it. They claim that critical mass is done to create awareness of issues facing cyclists, yet when the media reports and delivers a totally different message, they continue to persist with an action that is clearly failing. Surely it's time to try something else.

I am for cycling advocacy, as I am a cyclist who is asserttive about his rights.

If I get cut up by a van I'll call the number on the back or e mail the company. I regularly phone to complain about taxi drivers, I advise the authorities of glass on the road etc.

I try to be assertive but courteous when on the road to show motorists that not all cyclists jump lights, wobble etc.

I like the concept behind critical mass as an advocacy group. Indeed the CM events in Edinburgh go past with little fuss, even though traffic here is high density.

However, when read of CM events being effectively hijacked by other parties with axes to grind, my concern is that tis portrays a negative stereotype of cyclist as militant car haters.

To effect change we have to work within the system. Sometimes CM events are taken over to work outwith, and that can be as simple as ignoring the basic rules of the road.

well, i wrote a really long comment about the motivations and perspectives of a CM type activist verses a advocacy/legal-chanels type activitist on another thread at http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?s=&postid=280011#post280011 so check that out too.


originally posted by thbirks
Can anyone give me first-hand experiences of what exactly occurs at a Critical Mass ride. I have never participated in or witnessed a CM ride. From what I read the rides vary from city to city. Is the whole intent as some say to annoy motorists? Is there a way for a group of cyclists to ride together in a city without interferring with motorized traffic? Or is a parade permit needed for this?

well it's hard to generalize, but i'll try.
basically the group meets and is made up of WAY more diverse groups than any other kind of cycling event i know of (i race, road and mountain bikes, am a mountain bike tour guide, have done charity rides and other events) and there are people of all types of all walks of life: from students and "young hippies" on any old junker bike, to racers like myself wearing spandex, to families pulling kids in the trailers, to retired people on ancient bikes, to guys with jam-boxes hooked up, to guys with their bikes decorated for image not function, expensive bikes to $10 garage sale specials... diversity is the key with the whole economic spectrum covered: wealthy, middle class and poor

the group rides relatively slowy (i'm a racer) without pacelines or whatever and the spirit of fun and celebration is high with people singing, playing music and sounding noisemakers. (especially in Portland) auto drivers and passers-by usually join in a honk in approval and provide encouragement (the negative commnents are by FAR the majority). as the group rides together how exactly they ride depends on the numbers: if there are 300 or so riders, then the group will usually stay together and continue riding through a red light. if there is motorist riding aggressively, cyclists will surround the car and attempt to end the dangerous situation and if possible talk to the driver. if there is an emergency vehicle or whatever the group acts quickly to let them through. on one ride a driver talked to some CMers and explained his wife was at the hospital and needed to get to her and they yelled through the line to clear and let him through and he got through FASTER than if the area had been filled with autos sitting in traffic. occaisonally someone gets carried away and does something like pestering autos or yelling stuff that they probably shouldn't but for the most part there is a jovial feel and it is a party and celebration through the city much like a parade. people enjoy riding without having to worry about dangers from cars, as well as the possiblitiy to ride through the streets with a few hundred other cyclists who also share their vision of a world not dominated by cars - and the pollution and danger and isolation -- it is good to see you're not alone in your feelings and vision. if the celebration happens to piss off some auto drivers then they are probably the ones in need of being "awakened" to the damage, death and destruction that their actions are causing and a little negative is ok for the greater cause - to get others motiviated and hopefully effect fundamental change.

anyway, there are tons of interpretations and yes some do have small tactics to bring attention to the ride at the expense of motorists, but this is not what CM is really about.


originally posted by thbirks
I have a thought that CM appeals especially to young people, who want to change things and want that change immediately. "What do we want?" "______." "When do we want it?" "Now."
yes, very much so! young people who see so much wrong with our society and the blind acceptance of the auto and oil industry and a blind eye to the pollution, death and isolation CAN often really get motivated about something like CM -- and i would say the 17-23 age group is the largest one at CM rides, but not the ONLY one. for whatever reason most 16-25 year olds aren't so likely to write their congressman or go to town meetings and speak up, but ARE very likely to have some strong opinions on the world, many of which are idealistic --- like the hope of cities designed for people and bikes, not cars -- and this is good (ok, my opinion) and CM is an outlet for this POSITIVE energy.

To effect change we have to work within the system. Sometimes CM events are taken over to work outwith, and that can be as simple as ignoring the basic rules of the road.

well too bad my post is in the other thread, but this caught my eye, as it fits exactly the little 2 pronged schism theory i presented. yes from this camp's view (gotta read my other post), advocacy must come from within the system b/c the system basically works and it just needs to be improved.

most CMers would argue the system is broken and major change is necessary to fix that and it can ONLY come from outside the system -- i.e. from the people

You noticed that too? And I thought I was the only one. Once again I pose the question of CM that nobody has satisfactorily answered in order to sway my viewpoint. What exactly has critical mass done to actually eliminate any of the things they are complaining about?

this is hard to quantify and surely CM has not been as effective as it could be as is clear that many cyclists don't even support it, but...

in places like Portland OR and San Francisco there is a strong feeling of empowerment among the cycling community -- and the local government is aware that cyclists are out there and have needs and drivers are aware of cyclists too. and MUCH of this a result of CM and the publicity it has generated. unfortunately it is all fuzzy and one can only speculate how much of an effect it has, but go ride in the cities with the biggest CM movements and they tend to correlate with the ones most friendly to cyclists (sure, it also works the other way too, that since there are more cyclists more go to CM)

anyway, i cannot point to a study or any hard proof, but from my personal experience i see CM has had many positive effects:
1) increases awareness about cycling - whether good or bad publicity if drivers expect a bike, that's an improvement
2) CM encourages people to do something -- as i stated before, CM was what motivated me to actually DO something about what i see as problems and potential
3) CM encourages people to ride

sorry i can't give a harder, more concrete answer than that, but CM deals with abstract things like motivating, educationg, and inspiring people which are difficult to quantify

Originally posted by nathank

most CMers would argue the system is broken and major change is necessary to fix that and it can ONLY come from outside the system -- i.e. from the people

I agree the system is probably broken but the difficulty with change coming from "the people" is that at present time, "the people" largely prefer to have the freedom to drive, their taxes by fuel and road use and employment by production of cars greatly influence the government decision makers (why so many new roads when it has been proved this just increases the traffic they are supposed to free off?).

Until there is enough of a ground swell of opinion against private car use, for reasons of health ecology and cost, i think we have to work within the system to promote change. Working outwith is just like f*rting in the wind at the moment as the opposing pressure groups have all the muscle.

It's maybe analogous to the fight people have had re smoking an lung cancer.

I would happily be more "militant" if I thought it would help, but in today's world militant cyclists are seen as weirdo's.

hey chewa, i hear you. as i said i am kind of between the 2 camps: believing things are broken and seeing some hope to fix the system/believing the first method won't change anything so why try...

and no offense meant here, but if you were 20 years old i bet you wouldn't be so practical and believing nothing would change b/c people are too lazy and stubborn and hooked on the convenience of the car. you have probably learned through your personal experience to expect that nothing will change. young people are idealistic because they haven't "learned" how to give up hope, or at least give up the big dream and focus on something achievable. anyway, don't mean to piss you off here, and i hope you get what i mean. but i'm going to guess you're over 30. but we also need activists like you in the system that know how to get things done! but we also need the young idealists to _maybe_ really make a difference!

Maybe I'm alone in this attitude but I strive to cycle for enjoyment... not to conduct a war.

Originally posted by nathank
but go ride in the cities with the biggest CM movements and they tend to correlate with the ones most friendly to cyclists (sure, it also works the other way too, that since there are more cyclists more go to CM)

Not in this country they don't. At least by the conventional measures, the Gold Coast City Council probably has the biggest "cycling" budget in all of Australia (in fact, there are some states that spend less than our local government does). By some strange coincidence, we are also the only ones without a critical mass.

Of course, those of us who don't necessarily equate cycle-friendliness with facilities find such things irrelevant. However I've yet to see any evidence that suggests CM does anything to reduce driver incompetence. In any case, this is my last post on the CM thing. It's been done to death, so unless somebody has something new to offer, the debate is finished as far as I'm concerned for the time being.

I have only this to say about Critical Mass: It's not all that bad really.

Originally posted by nathank
hey chewa, i hear you. as i said i am kind of between the 2 camps: believing things are broken and seeing some hope to fix the system/believing the first method won't change anything so why try...

and no offense meant here, but if you were 20 years old i bet you wouldn't be so practical and believing nothing would change b/c people are too lazy and stubborn and hooked on the convenience of the car. you have probably learned through your personal experience to expect that nothing will change. young people are idealistic because they haven't "learned" how to give up hope, or at least give up the big dream and focus on something achievable. anyway, don't mean to piss you off here, and i hope you get what i mean. but i'm going to guess you're over 30. but we also need activists like you in the system that know how to get things done! but we also need the young idealists to _maybe_ really make a difference!

no offence taken. As a matter of fact I am 42. You are probably right. At 20 I was on demos in connection with freedom of political prisoners, student grants, ecology etc.

However, I have to take issue with your statement that I have come to expect nothing will change and by implication that I have given up hope.

I expect things to change and I hope things will change. However, I have learned that often the way to change things is by using the existing sytem from within.

I do that by badgering people who have influence in small areas.

I totally agree with Cycling Advocacy and I hope young people continue to be as excited as I am about cycling.

I also agree with the aims of CM, but not sometimes the methods used in isolated instances. As I said, the edinburgh CM meetings seem to go off with no real problems, but I am concerned that in some cases other groups with other political axes to grind jump on the bandwagon to further their own aims, often involving deliberate law breaking.

If public opinion shifts enough away from the "carloving culture", then these breaches will be tolerated as being seen as showing strenght of feeling. Much as Greenpeace blockades etc are tolerated by a large proportion of the population. However, at presentthat sort of action is not tolerated and to my mind has a negative effect on the very cause it is intended to promote.

My idea of effective cycle advocacy? use mass media to promote the health aspects, ride past cars in traffic jams giving leaflets expounding the benefits of cycling etc, not causing the jams, but curing them.

Remember, it is not just lazy carloving folk who have to be targeted. the whole transport industry is a major earner for any western country. You are in Germany. Look at the big engineering firms there in terms of exports. Merc, Porsche, BMW, trainmakers, MAN?

Government has to be persuaded. The only way to do that is using the system. Look at what Ken Livingstone has done in London as a good example of fighting from within.

jeez, you've got me depressed now, thinking I'm an old fart whose lost hope. I'm not. I think I do as much for cycling by using my bike every day I can, telling my friends and neighbours how great it is, protesting by letter when stupid decisions which affect cyclists are taken by authorities, and just looking like I have a good time on my bike.

Don't you think?

hey chewa,

didn't mean to depress you and i think the stuff you are talking about is right on.

i was just trying to help everyone try and understand everyone else a little bit and at the same time try and paint CM in a little more positive light than what seems to be the consensus here...

to be completely honest i actually think our only real hope of ending the car culture is by it killing itself (regardless of what we do) --- traffic and the inconvenience it causes will someday make driving so inconvenient that nobody will want to drive despite the "convenience", "freedom" and "coolness" factor. and the costs to build EVEN more roads will be too high and some alternative will arise. the beginnings of this can be seen in London and how they are trying to repair the problem of every individual driving to the city that is already out of control there.

but some days i feel inspired that _maybe_ CM could wake up the masses to the enslavement to the auto, but most of the time i follow more your line of reasoning and looking for practical motivations and small steps (hey, i'm 32 and slowly loosing some of my euphoric idealism of youth)

as for Germany, yeah it's a funny place, because it is the home of MAJOR auto and everyone loves driving and the autobahn, but at the same time the rail is good (although everyone says it sucks), public transit is stellar and support for bicycling and bike commuting is very high --- the munich transportation group or whatever it is did some study that bike commuting is the cheapest and fastest method for distances less than 6km and still cheaper and just as fast as the car for distances up to 10km which includes most commutes in the city. unfortunately they don't advertise/promote this. i actually read it in a Men's Health article promoting bike commuting (a VERY good one too - i was impressed... hm i should write to them...) which quoted the study.

and yeah, i ride my bike and i tell everyone i can about cycling and how great it is for you and how empowering it is (i had a conversation this morning with our young intern who was talking about so much stress from driving and i explained used to be stressed out in traffic and now i ride my bike. he lives outside of town so _thinks_ a car is the only option, but at least i made him think about it)

and we can also do some things to make it better. but yeah, it would be a really great thing if the health angle could somehow be pushed... it would include the government and health insurance so there would be big money and advertising, plus health which is an issue of growing individual importance in our society (see how smoking has changed in the US, although Europe still can't get up to speed on that one)

in Germany the health costs are rising and they have started to advertise public announcements encouraging sport "Sport does the body good" with billboards and stuff... maybe if they could really get behind cycle commuting as a way to cut pollution, save money (government and individual) AND promote health and save government money and increase individual health... well, makes sense to me already!

Nathank. I think we think along the same lines. My vew too is that problems with the car will have to get so much worse before views shift. Even if the pollution aspect is dealt with (by fuel cell) congestion will be the killer.

I was joking about being depressed. I am standing away from the window ledge now :D

There is really bad form of the protest. I heard about it again, while I was cycling from Hamburg to Copenhagen on the North Sea Cycling Route earlier this month.

I heard about it on the FM radio. The female announcer said that on the autobahn (highway) between Hamburg and Berlin the young people were throwing stones from the bridge in the cars. She mentoned the certain location of the bridge.

It was not the first time I heard about this activity.

In contrast with this the CM gives the young people the opportunity to belong to something and express their views peacefully.

Originally posted by chewa
Even if the pollution aspect is dealt with (by fuel cell) congestion will be the killer.


Mama mia. Still there are people who believe in fuel cell scam.

Originally posted by Max
Mama mia. Still there are people who believe in fuel cell scam.

Saw a test of the new GM prototype which is fuel cell driven. Time will tell.

Anyway, I didn't say I believed in it. If you re read my post you will see the word "EVEN".

Originally posted by khuon
I however feel that the laws are fine and do well to create an appropriate set of rules for cyclists and motorists alike.

Do you really think that laws which allow the production and usage of personal cars with the weight of 3 tons (7000 pounds) and engine of 400 horse powers are fine?

Originally posted by chewa
Saw a test of the new GM prototype which is fuel cell driven. Time will tell.

Anyway, I didn't say I believed in it. If you re read my post you will see the word "EVEN".

I am more convinced by the engine on the pressurized air. The pressurized air can be produced without intermediate electricity, which is too costly from economical and environmental point of view.

Originally posted by khuon
Maybe I'm alone in this attitude but I strive to cycle for enjoyment... not to conduct a war.

You are not alone my friend. There are more of us out there. Now if we can just keep other cuclists from antagonizing motorists so they won't have some kind of grudge against us we will be in much better shape.

Lets get about 800 other bikers in a big group and parade through town while everyone is trying to get to work or school and show them how cuddly and lovable we really are ;). We'll just keep riding through red lighta also so they will not think we are arrogant jerks who refuse to obey traffic laws. While we are at it we should also stop into all the businesses and tell any employers that may have some important business clients showing up really late and that we really don't have any ill intents and the thousands of dollars they spent flying their employees/clients in to the meetings really is not something to be bothered about. Maybe we will write letters to the families of any victims of crimes that might have been prevented if the entire local police force had not been busy dealing with the logistical problems we caused by an unplanned and unpermitted event and tell them it is all in the name of good faith.

Geez, I can't imagine why a CM event might make more people angry than understanding?

Just ask the residents or Atlanta about how much they love and welcome the masses of College students that used to participate in Freaknik every year. It was also just a little gathering for socializing and a bit of joyous celebration of spring break for young students.

You know,

I borught pack behaviors up in another thread. I'm no fan of CM per se, but I think we may be in a situation where people on this board are pointing fingers where they really dont have room to. Many organized tours/races on open public roads can end up acting like a CM ride anyhow. I think if you ride in a pack racing/touring and don't move over you are as guilty of being a PITA as a CM ride.

Below is a picture probably like what Joyce of the Illinois Leader got stuck behind. these people are blocking a lane illegally just like CM would, and acting like they have a right to. Why is riding like them and holding up of Joyce's trip to church by riding in a "touring/racing" pack any better than CM holding up folks by riding in an "activist" pack?

To be fair, the roads might have been closed for the below picture but I doubt it, as all the riders are sticking to their side of the road. On a closed road there would be no reason to stick to the right like that.

http://www.atlanticbicycleclub.org/images/CN%202002/45%20perkin-R3-9A.jpg

here is a CM ride for comparison:
http://www.metrodigital.com/mass/mecca/mass/jim01.jpg

To be fair, they both look about the same to me, impact to following-traffic wise. That being said, I don't think I'll be involved in CM either, when people point out to them they are blocking traffic they are more likely to scream "i'm being repressed" and make a scene out of it than go "oh the law says single file," and just move to the right. On that front i'd much rather be in the racing bunch.

Plus racing/touring out in the boonies pisses off a few Joyces rather than a city full of people. I guess that is a benefit.

take care,

Jester

P.S. If Joyce was stuck behind cyclists riding single file, she should just shut it ;)

Jester, both pictures you posted display poor cycling etiquette and a blatant disregard for making it relatively safe for both cyclists and motorists.

As a matter of fact today is my weekly group ride in which there may be a new attendee that showed up last week. I am prepared to ask him not to attend our ride any longer if he does not ride as far to the right as possible when traffic is present. Last week he stayed out in the lane a good 5 feet or more even after I politely mentioned keeping single file when cars pass.

Our little group is only 7-10 riders on a good day but i take these groups out routes that I ride every day and I don't want the local motorists to start regarding us as a problem.

I get mostly respect with few exceptions on my daily rides. Some folks wave since they see me a lot.

The law here is that you can ride 2 abreast . However most cyclists only do so if conditions permit and slip to single file if traffic is busy or if the road narrows. Common sense and respect for others .

Originally posted by Max
Do you really think that laws which allow the production and usage of personal cars with the weight of 3 tons (7000 pounds) and engine of 400 horse powers are fine?

Yes. But I also don't believe in legislating common sense. Producing, owning and/or operating a large powerful vehicle is not inherently dangerous.

Originally posted by Max
Mama mia. Still there are people who believe in fuel cell scam.

Fuel cell technology itself is a time-proven and mature technology. I see no reason why it cannot be adapted for use in personal automotive transport. The key to making any power source work in such an environment is energy density. I've said it before that it's most likely the only acceptable form of alternative fuel vehicle will be one that can be based off a technology with an equal or greater energy density as that of liquid fossil fuels. Fuel cells have the potential.

Originally posted by khuon
Producing, owning and/or operating a large powerful vehicle is not inherently dangerous.

I sincerely hope that one day these large powerful vehicles would not move in the endless stream under your windows.

Let it be somebody else's street.

Originally posted by jester69
Below is a picture probably like what Joyce of the Illinois Leader got stuck behind. these people are blocking a lane illegally just like CM would, and acting like they have a right to. Why is riding like them and holding up of Joyce's trip to church by riding in a "touring/racing" pack any better than CM holding up folks by riding in an "activist" pack?


http://www.atlanticbicycleclub.org/images/CN%202002/45%20perkin-R3-9A.jpg

On the contrary, if you look carefully, you'll see that the section of road where the leaders are riding is a no passing zone (note double yellow line). While they may in fact be violating a 'single file' or 'no abreast' type rule, the fact of the matter is they are not impleding someone from passing at this point. In addition, notice that the lane width is insufficient for both a bicycle and motor vehicle to share the lane. In other words, a car must use at least part of the oncoming lane to pass. In the case of a group of this size, it is MUCH easier to pass a bunched-up group than to pass this same number lined up single file--they'd probably stretch out for near an 1/8 of a mile in single file.

Why is it that even cyclists automatically assume that a bigger, faster vehicle has priority over another? The vehicle being passed ALWAYS, ALWAYS has the right of way--even if it's a bike. Rules regarding not obstructing traffic do not mean that cyclists must cower and hop off the road to let someone pass whenever a car comes up from behind. A reasonable wait until it is safe, clear and legal to pass is not different that if the passing vehicle came up behind a slower car.

People, please stand up and realize that you are not a second-class citizen just because you ride a bike!

Hayneda makes an excellent point about this image. I have considered no passing zones as applicable to cars overtaking cyclists as well. It is not us but the motorist who needs to realize this. I stop short of depending on motorists to actually know the traffic codes from what I see every day while even in my truck.

I'll keep as far right and single file in order to save my own a$$ to ride another day and forego making a lane ownership statement.

People, please stand up and realize that you are not a second-class citizen just because you ride a bike!

So take that lane and hope you don't end up dead?


Why is it that even cyclists automatically assume that a bigger, faster vehicle has priority over another?

For the same reason you yield to the bigger stronger and faster riders (assuming you actually believe none of those riders are passing each other during the double yellow).

Originally posted by hayneda
People, please stand up and realize that you are not a second-class citizen just because you ride a bike!

After posting those pictures I got to thinking (dangerous) that group of racing riders is probably travelling 28-30 MPH, and takes about the same ammount of space as a semi truck would. So, I agree, it doesnt seem like the cyclist would have any more or less a right to that piece of road than a slow moving semi would.

However, if the law says single file, and we ride in a pack, isn't that saying we are not a second class citizen but rather a higher-than-first-class, above-the-law citizen that can ignore laws at will? Rather than riding in a pack illegaly, should the law be changed to allow pack riding?

I guess my real point was to point out that maybe people were too quick to condemn critical mass. If one is doing the same things on the weekend themselves, but calling it OK as its a tour or a race, can one fairly point an accusatory finger at CM?

I still don't think CM's in yer face style helps anybody. I am undecided abut the pack thing, you may have a point that it makes it easier for others to pass, but I still havent decided if that outweighs the illegality of it for me. I may end up riding in a pack like that myself someday, if i take up racing. just trying to decide how I feel about it.

take care,

Jester

Remember that in some states (including mine) it's not illegal to ride abreast.

The most important point is that, whether alone or in a group, hugging the white line on a narrow lane like in the photo is the quickest way to encourage a motorist to try to pass when it isn't safe (much less legal).

I ride roads like that everyday during rush hour on my commute (even narrower actually). Being out in the lane is much safer than hugging the white line.

Dave
who's car IS a bike (actually 4 of them)

Originally posted by ehenz
So take that lane and hope you don't end up dead?



For the same reason you yield to the bigger stronger and faster riders (assuming you actually believe none of those riders are passing each other during the double yellow).

I always hope that I don't end of dead. To stack the odds in my favor I ride a bike instead of driving a car. I also ride out where I can be seen, and where motorists are not tempted to try to pass me when it's not safe or clear to do so.

What do you mean "yeild to the bigger stronger and faster riders?" Do you pull over every time another rider passes you? Do you pull over in your car whenever a semi comes up behind you? Again, the vehicle being passed always has the right of way! Whether its a bike passing a bike, car passing a tractor, or semi passing a car.

"My idea of effective cycle advocacy? use mass media to promote the health aspects, ride past cars in traffic jams giving leaflets expounding the benefits of cycling etc, not causing the jams, but curing them."- Chewa
Good point chewa, but there is the slight problem that getting the mass media of doing anything to promote cycling seems unlikely. Just check out all the car ads. There is the problem that the media is controlled by just six mega-conglomerates.
That means that the latent structure of the media does little to express much more than promote the interests of rich advertisers. Read more about media monopoly here: http://www.mediachannel.org/
And guess who the richest advertisers are- automobile and oil companies!!!However it is a good point that something needs to be done to show cycling in a positive light. It's true that critical mass is portraying cycling in a negative light. However, rather than just bash critical massers, they need to be taken under our wing and shown how to do other types of activism. I empathsize with critical mass, because it's often the deaths of cyclists which instigate a Mass. Here is a site showing all the messengers killed in the line of duty and it is depressing:
http://www.ahalenia.com/memorial/
Anger is what fuels a critical mass. Perhaps the young who are in touch with that anger could have it directed in a more constructive way. I can't get away from that anger, myself, because of the blatant disrespect I encounter on the road:mad: .
And drivers will make excuses to justify their brutality such as citing wreckless cyclists as their raison d' etre for wacking cyclists.
They have no more right to do that, than I have to sledgehammer cars just because one cut me off one time.