Road Bike Racing - Would you have stopped?

Ok we all know Ullrich did the gentlemanly thing and sat up when Armstrong crashed.

Also we know that Armstrong did that very same thing 2 years ago.

However, the difference is that the Tour was pretty well finished for Ullrich 2 years ago and not hanging on a 15 second gap.

Would you have sat up or used the advantage to secure the lead.

I like to think of myself as a gentleman and bike racing being a gentleman's sport has some rules of decorum that state you don't attack someone who's down due to an unfortunate accident. To do so would result in a loss of honour and respect from the peloton and one's self. I think Ullrich knew Armstrong could recover from the crash and gave him the chance to do so. He basically called "fight's off" until the situation could be reset to more even terms. Afterall, this is still a sport and proper sportsmanship is to be expected.

I would like to think that I would act in a gentlemanly manner too, but I think various things would have been going through my mind. I hope I would make the right decision (whaterver that is!)

been there done that. it's the right thing to do.

I'd like to believe I'd have done the right thing. But in the heat of battle, with the testosterone and andrenaline flowing, I dunno.

I don't think it would have made much diference to the outcome. The real issue in my mind is @#$%!* crowd control. Geez, I get p!ssed looking at the spectators and freakin' motorcycles crowding the cyclists. What about the time Merckx got punched in the kidney?
:irritated

I believe that Lance (and most, if not all other contenders) would have also waited in this situation. It's a question of honor and sportsmanship. IMHO, these are values that have virtually evaporated in American sports - we want to win @ any price. I can certainly appreciate why those of us from the States are having a problem understanding this.

that's tough. with tyler hamilton yelling to slow up, it wouldn't have looked good for Jan to motor on without the others at that point. If Lance pulls up lame or really has pedal problems that prevented him from returning then Jan looks like a d!ck.
Lance would have caught him anyway and it would have created hostility that would result in the same result in the coming days (IMHO)

in short.....Jan did right here.

Interesting that some of you have commented on what Ullrich did. I asked what would you do, and given other posts on this forum I had expected a lot of the American memebrs to option the sod it I would leg it choice.

If you are going to be the one to beat Armstrong, you don’t want to have an asterisk next to your win. Gotta beat him on even terms.

yes, because we americans are all uncouth and barbaric and everything... ;)

jan absolutely did the right thing for any number of reasons. even if you've no sportsmanship in your veins, imagine the disclaimers that would've gone up had jan won the tour because he attacked a fallen man. until the end of time, that's what people would remember, not that he beat lance one-on-one. he would've completely lost the respect of the peloton, the media, the fans, and le patron himself.

We can talk about honor and sportsmanship all day long, but let's look at it from another angle as well. That of ego. These guys all have pretty big ego's, and to win the race by taking advantage of something like that will not be a good thing. Everybody will say that you won the race on a fluke, etc. Even if JU only pulled 30 seconds on LA by taking advantage of it and put 10 minutes on him in the TT, he'd still be remembered for that one piece of poor sportsmanship.

Remember 1999 when Lance won his first TdF, and everybody said "Oh, well of course he won, there was no compeition", nobody wants to hear that, Lance did it for 3 (almost 4) more years after that. But that's not how you want your tour win to go down.

Andrew

Well I'm no 'gent' but I would have waited--while cursing under my breath.

A friend of mine mentioned that this is kind of a ridiculous gesture. If you drive off the road like Jan did a few years ago or snag a musette by riding to close to the crowd like Lance your skills are wavering--you're not as good as your opponent in that instance. Therefore the person in the best form and most skills at that point should win (not stop).

Interesting point, don't know if I agree, but interesting.

Did anyone see the interview with Tyler? He's the one who suggested they wait for Lance, not Jan. He said it's an unwritten rule in the tour to wait for the yellow jersey in a situation like that <shrug> I think that it boils down to (as Andrew indicated) they want to beat the yellow jersey "mano-a-mano" and not due to an advantage gained by his misfortunes.

Yeah, but that places a lot more emphasis on luck. While I guess it’s fair, wouldn’t you hate to loose the tour because of something as simple as a puncture? At least this way, the strongest man wins.

This is the first time that I have watched the tour. When Lance fell, I thought that it was the end for him. I had no idea that the other riders would wait. I was amazed, and I learned something very important. Ulrich, Tyler, and the others are a very class act. I was astounded. I did not know that cyclists were like that at all. Before I saw this, I would have pedaled off, now that I have learned that the sport has some decent and good values, I would have definately waited.

What a great bunch of professional athletes. In the end it may not have even matterd, I don't know, but if Ullrich wins, he will not have done it in an unsportsmanlike manner. From this beginner -

Originally posted by chewa
I had expected a lot of the American memebrs to option the sod it I would leg it choice.
Right now, a couple of E-E riders are at the top of my low-life list (and neither is American, thank you). They are climbers, no? I guess not. I hope they're ground to dust in the remaining stages.

When it comes to attacking crashed/urinating/eating leaders, it surprises me how many people have to have the "why" explained to them. And even at that, don't quite seem to get it. It was the same when Lance waited for Jan.

I wonder why Lance did not even hesitate to slow down when Beloki crashed last week. Did it look so bad that he knew JB was not getting up again or did he just waive the "wait rule" because his competition, namely Vino, was whizzing on without him around the next corner. Nobody other than JB's team stopped to wait for him.

Seems the understandings are a little vague!

I would have slowed up. I'm not going to win by taking advantage of a rider fallen because of a spectator.

It would be different if it was something like... racing down a descent. If I went over the top of a mountain with a minute advantage over a rival, and I stormed down the mountain... if the guy behind me crashed, well then that is too bad. THAT is racing. His fault for making the mistake.

But if I wasn't racing to gain time on him right before it happened, then I wouldnt use the misfortune to gain time on him.

Originally posted by Captain Crunch
I wonder why Lance did not even hesitate to slow down when Beloki crashed last week. Did it look so bad that he knew JB was not getting up again or did he just waive the "wait rule" because his competition, namely Vino, was whizzing on without him around the next corner. Nobody other than JB's team stopped to wait for him.

Seems the understandings are a little vague!

It was the situation:

- Vino was out front and not slowing, forcing their hand

- The stage was almost done in terms of time (downhill & flats)

- The group did slow a bit @ first, then moved on after (I'm guessing) they got radio reports that poor Beloki wasn't getting up

- Beloki wasn't in yellow (he was VERY close though)

I would wait, plain and simple.

As for Jan, his comments to the press were:

It was correct that when Armstrong crashed, I didn't attack, because cycling is a fair-play sport
and later:

I have never in my life attacked someone who had crashed. That's not the way I race. . .

Jan was pulling back after lance crashed it was Basso,
Zubeldia etc. that Tyler was admonishing to wait. He
did NOT have to tell Jan.

Marty

For about 2 seconds my brain would have screamed at me to go go go but I would have waited. If I were in the position of winning the TdF I wouldn't want all of the insinuations thatt would have come if I had, successfully, attacked.

As an analogy when baseball put an asterik after Roger Maris' name for 61 homeruns it ruined the accomplishment for him and that wasn't even a fair action by baseball IMO. The baggage that would've gone with a victory gained by attacking a fallen rider would be as bad and justified.

So I chose #3.

I wondered abit about Beloki and LA too but the attack was already well initiated by Vino and the counter by LA and Beloki was also in progress when the crash happened too. If LA hadn't been forced off the road I do think he should have, and probably would have, slowed and looked back. Vino's attack was a bigger threat to Beloki's spot than Lance's.

i don't think it has much to do with being a "gentleman."
if you win by kicking your opponent while he's down, your victory will never be approved by your colleagues and fans. you will never enjoy it and it will forever taint your reputation. ullrich simply had no other option but wait for lance.

shrimpx - I disagree.

I think it has everything to do with being a "gentleman". A lot of sports I play competitively have an aspect of "gentlemanly" conduct associated with them (if you can call it such a thing). When it's badminton, the early rounds don't involve linesmen because we assume players are honourable and respectful enough of the game to call shots as they truly see them. When it's curling during the winter, there are no referees to call rocks or to scream foul if we cross the hog line - if we break a rule, we have the honour of calling the error ourselves. The same goes with cycling :D It's played with respect and honour and I think there's a general consensus among everyone that pedaling off while someone is down is dishonourable (although I agree with someone else's earlier comments...I'm no fan of Euskatel Euskadi)

sports are about having a good time, and winning not in that order. I would have used that chance to gain a lead, its not like the guy made lance fall. Maybe i'm just too young to understand the gentleman's sport thing.
in soccer if the last defender slips and falls I don't think Totti is going to be waiting for the guy to get up before blasting one by the keeper.

Originally posted by shrimpx
i don't think it has much to do with being a "gentleman."
if you win by kicking your opponent while he's down, your victory will never be approved by your colleagues and fans. you will never enjoy it and it will forever taint your reputation. ullrich simply had no other option but wait for lance.

Great show of sportsmanship.

Jan said so himself, it wasn't that he was afraid of what others would think. To take advantage of Lance's fall would have violated his own code of fair play.

These guys are all champions and they belong to an elite fraternity: they've all suffered and they're all subject to the quirks of bad luck. They don't need referees or the press or internet forumites to tell them what's fair. They know it and they enforce that code for themselves.

I hope to remember these moments as teaching tools for my kids someday. Play hard and play fair, out of respect for your sport, your opponent, and yourself.

(And as a counter-example: those E-E punks and Pettachi dropping out altogether before the mountains. Feh.)

I actually think there is no way Ullrich could have attacked. The reason I say that is this:

Back when Ullrich ran off the road into the ditch and Lance sat up, most people don't remember, but Beloki actually attacked. He was just behind Ullrich and he was hoping to jump above Ullrich. Well that move by Beloki actually worked against him in a very big way because Lance got pissed, and chased down Beloki. Once Ullrich had rejoined, Lance and Ullrich promptly attacked and Beloki ended up losing a fair amount of time on the stage.... which I think was the reason for the hand shake at the end of the stage.

I think the same would have occured had Ullrich (or any other GC contender) attacked when Lance fell. Someone, or possibly several riders, most notably Tyler, would have chased the attack down, and then worked for Lance in an attack against the offending party.

What comes around, goes around... especially in the peloton.

Play to win or don't play at all. If someone is obviously (seriously) hurt, that would throw a slightly different light on it.


What do you want? I never claimed to be a gentleman.

;)

Nismo, you're too young and cocky to understand.

there may not be any honour (you know what that is don't you?) in other sports, particularly mountain biking (i know becasue I race MTB's), but there is an unwritten sporting code among roadies. In troad races you cn pick the MTB'ers out by a mile. They're always causing havoc and showing off becuase thier legs are unshaven. What they don't realise is that everyone thinks they're childish morons.
You want to learn about honour and sportsmanship then ride som high level road races. Try MTBer tactics and yoou'll find your self off theroad and without any friends 100K from the finish. Loads of time to think and reflect....

Originally posted by nismo400

in soccer if the last defender slips and falls I don't think Totti is going to be waiting for the guy to get up before blasting one by the keeper.

That is completely different. Jan wasn't attacking in the first place (relation to attempting to score a goal)


Originally posted by P. B. Walker

What comes around, goes around... especially in the peloton.

Definetly.
It has to be recognized as well that these riders spend hours riding with each other each day. They aren't fighting. They have to give each other room in the peleton and work together, or both parties will end up at a disadvantage (and possibly a crash). In road racing, you spend a lot of time racing TOGETHER, rather than against each other.

Originally posted by RiPHRaPH
that's tough. with tyler hamilton yelling to slow up, it wouldn't have looked good for Jan to motor on without the others at that point. If Lance pulls up lame or really has pedal problems that prevented him from returning then Jan looks like a d!ck.
Lance would have caught him anyway and it would have created hostility that would result in the same result in the coming days (IMHO)

in short.....Jan did right here.
Yep.Whose to say ig tyler isnt yelling and i think holding his hand up to wait what would have happened in the heat of the attack.

In many other sports, there are rules specifically designed for one opponent or team to take advantage of another's misfortunes or screwups. Baseball has errors in play, football (American) has fumbles... and people actually count these against the team that's commited them and for the opposing team who takes advantage of them. That is the nature of those sports. Bike racing is different.

Additionally, most of those sports are played in a very controlled environment. The TdF is much different. The riders out there are not just facing another rider or team... they are competing against others riders and other teams. They are up against their own mental and physical limits (people say that just riding a Tour changes a rider). They are up against the elements of nature. They are sometimes up against the crowd. And they are sometimes up against Dame Fate. They are exposed to a much wider variety of variables all at once than almost any other sporting event and they are exposed for three whole weeks.

The riders know this. The organisers know this. Thus a certain level of decorum has evolved within the fraternity of the peloton. To an outsider... especially one who is accustomed to watching "court" or "stadium" sports and especially ones who are used to "American" sports, these unwritten rules may seem alien. But for those riding in these great races, it's part of its own culture. To the riders, the Tour de France is more than a race... more than a game... for those three weeks, it's life, the universe and everything. And as such they must abide by the ways of that alternative lifestyle.

Well put...a certain "respect" for your opponents abilities and appreciation for what it took to get there.
If I'm going to win, I want to win because I was able to perform better than you, not because I took advantage of your mishap.
Unlike many other racing events.

Although I do think the American mentality is to win at all costs, we do also have some respect morals, like don't hit a man when he's down.... In times like the Tour, this is especially true. As arogant as Americans might seem to be, I think most of us would do the same thing in this situation.

after re-watching the eurosport.com clips today, i noticed that ullrich started sprinting hard after lance went down. having not watched the whole stage race, i am not sure what happened, but could it be that he only stopped because of hamilton's explicit demand that lance is not attacked?

as a side note, i also noticed that lance's right lever got busted in the fall, which means he was unable to shift cogs and probably rode one gear to victory.

Originally posted by shrimpx
after re-watching the eurosport.com clips today, i noticed that ullrich started sprinting hard after lance went down. having not watched the whole stage race, i am not sure what happened, but could it be that he only stopped because of hamilton's explicit demand that lance is not attacked?

as a side note, i also noticed that lance's right lever got busted in the fall, which means he was unable to shift cogs and probably rode one gear to victory.

I think you've been watching a different race from me. When LA went down Ullrich accelerated out of trouble (when Mayo tumbled), then glanced back and immediately sat up. Look at the line he took around the next corner. He took the wide line.

As to one gear, that maybe explains the high cadence.
My own view, with the Tour on the line I think I'd have had a conniption fit deciding whether to attack or not.

The insinuation that Ullrich only held up b/c he was told to do so is an embarassingly non-intelligent thing to say. Ullrich held up as soon as he got around the crash. The "sprint" was just to get around Mayo, who went down with LA. As many have said, holding up is what you do, it's part of the sport. Same deal about not attacking in feed zones.

If Ullrich had really wanted to attack, if his Directeur Sportif was yelling "go, go, go" in his radio do you really think he would have listened to Tyler Hamilton?

Ullrich did the right thing. If you don't like him fine but don't intentionally misconstrue his actions.

I did see the situation like chewa.
Ullrich waited immedeately and I think this was the right decision.
Lance would have surely done the same.
When Ullrich went off the road in 2001, Armstrong waited on him. But the situation in 2001 was different, Ullrich was behind 4 or 5 minutes and not just 15 seconds. So, the risk Armstrong took in 2001 was much less compared to Ullrich´s situation in stage 15.
That´s why I regard and appreciate Ullrich´s conduct even more.

Cheers,
Markus

the situation:

I just read this:

Ullrich Receives German Olympic Society Medal

Jan Ullrich, the 2000 Olympic road race champion, will be presented with a medal by the German Olympic Federation. The award is for fair-play and the committee who decides who receives it were impressed by his decision to wait for the current Tour leader after his crash with 9.5km to race in the stage to Luz-Ardiden before the 2nd rest day in this year's Tour de France.

See, you do the right thing, AND you get an award :D

where can i get a copy of the unwritten rules book?

cycling and golf are the only 2 sports left where fair play is a rule, not an exception.

lance has immersed himself in the european and cycling culture. in his younger more brash days, he wouldn't give it another thought.

i wonder what Jan would have done had he been on a break alone with lance when that happened - or if he hadn't won a tour yet.

and what if lance came back but had broken his pedal and couldn't clip back in? do you wait again?! where are those unwritten rules when you need them?

Those unwritten rules dont last forever.It takes{most the time a young,up and comer**one person to get it gone.Its happening in nascar with racing back to the yellow or not.Whose to say if TH is 15 seconds behind it all goes out the window.I'm glad for now it happened the way it did.Good things dont last forever.

What are the "unwritten rules" regarding a wreck, flat, or whatever during a TT. I know someone would not see a problem first hand, but would he be told by radio?

Last stage,your 15 seconds behind in total time,your behind leader with 1k to go and he goes down.You keep going and you win the tdf or stop and wait and your a nice guy.What do you do?

Originally posted by NW NJ Biker
What are the "unwritten rules" regarding a wreck, flat, or whatever during a TT. I know someone would not see a problem first hand, but would he be told by radio?

In a TT, you are racing all out, the whole time.
If someone crashes, then too bad for them. They crashed. The ones who were able to keep from crashing will finish better.
Same thing with equipment failures. The ones with the reliable equipment of course deserve the advantage.
In that case, you aren't really playing dirty. You arent taking advantage of those types of misfortunes, directly. You are already trying to race all out.

If Jan was the one who attacked, and had a decent gap on Lance, and THEN lance fell... I would see it as perfectly understandable if Jan didn't slow down (hypothetical situation).

Where was the honor from Iban Mayo and his teammate when Lance left Jan in the dust? Did anyone notice how they never once took the lead to help Jan out and let him do all the work even in the initial attacks? I even remember seeing Jan look back to motion for them to come forward, but yet they were content to sit back while Jan struggled through the climb, only to then sprint past him and rob him of the 2nd and 3rd place time bonuses. That just ****ty. Don't just bash Americans and spew the same old rhetoric about winning at all costs.

Where was the American bashing?

Actually from you when you made the comment that you expected most Americans to choose Sod him and take off option. If I read or interpreted that wrong, then you do have my sincere apology.

However, I do see this a lot, not necessarily here, but I do detest this notion that European athletes, businessmen, whatever, are somehow on a higher moral plain than Americans.

I realize I'm not terribly experienced at all in the sport of road racing, and know that most of you have a much greater knowledge of the sport, but even I thought Iban's behavior left much to be desired in one of the few professional, elite sports where honor actually is a virtue.

But again, if I did misunderstand you, I do apologize.

French goverment seems to have high morals.Germans goverment to.Morals is based on a person to person issue,not a nation.

actually many people were upset with Mayo and Zubeldia after the stage, including Ullrich. However you have to understand that they were also in the same race for GC.
Armstrong was in yellow. The unwritten code states that no-body attacksthe YELLOW jersey when he is down for mechanical, accident, feedzone, medical attention etc. This is the right of the Leader of the Tour. not for others. For everyone else it's a free for all.
But to have the right to lead you have to earn it fair and square in a man to man fight. Only Ullrich and Armstrong were involved in that battle, not Mayo or Zubeldia who were in their own race to maintain their respective positions. If Ullrich wanted the time bonus he would have to race them for it. They needed it as badly as he did.

Ullrich acted in the correct way wrt to Lance crashing. He was however out of line wrt to being upset when Mayo stole 2nd off him. Why? Becasue he should have realised that he is not in yellow and by tradition has no right expect fairplay from others.

By being in Yellow, you are the king and if anyone wants that crown you take it fair and square. How you get to be prince is irrelevant because being prince carries no weight. It just means you're the most likely to succeed the throne. But everyone else wants 2B most likely to succeed the throne.

Everything that happened in stage 15 was correct. Ullrich waited for LA because he wanted to race for the yellow man to man. Mayo stole 2nd from Ullrich because Ullrich is not yellow and therefore has no right to thje same treatment as the yellow jersey.
This is how it is and always has been.