KATU News in Portland, Oregon held a poll asking "Who causes more problems on the road, motorists, or cyclists?" and receiving a lot of responses:

http://www.katu.com/news/8769412.html

Stupid question. Yeah, 99% of the local populace all driving monstrous vehicles around town and those few, tiny little bicycles cause the most problems on the road...freakin' dumbasses!

yep if "problem" = minor inconvenience, then I think bikers by far cause more "problems" just by delaying a driver 5 seconds to slow down and go around. But if "problem" = injuries, deaths, $$$ in property damage, environmental and health issues, crippling personal debt, etc... then yeah it's a landslide by the motorists.

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.

Ha, too funny, I just read the comments and lo, it's the same old drivel ad nauseum...

Permits, darn it! Permits and the bicycle "problem" is solved for good! Until then, well, those cyclists will suffer the wrath.

"When bicyclists have to get a permit/license to operate a bicycle on Portland streets, have to get liability insurance and are subject to laws, fines, rules of the road and liability for accidents caused by them, that is when I will have more sympathy for them."

Here's a beauty about the EXTENSIVE damage a bicycle could cause:

"I think cyclists should be required to have insurance. A bicycle could do $5000 worth of damage to a new car very easily."

Oh, and the Nazis:

"Bicycle Nazis can kiss my Hummers behind."

Bicycles are both unsafe and a bit scary too:

"Many bike riders use roads that are unsafe for cyclists. These roads are narrow with very little shoulders to ride on. Common sense would only tell one that for their own safety, choose a safer road. It is especially bad this time of year when the roads are also used by farm equipment. Many cyclists do not stay in behind the white line. Instead they seem to ride the line???

As a driver it is a scary situation when you come upon a cyclist that is out in the road."

I guess even in a bike lane cyclists anger this person because they apparently ride too close to the line and somehow FORCE people to do stupid stuff...I wonder, how far away from the line is sufficient? Maybe there should be two lines - one for the edge and one next to it for where the rider should be? Stupid twit.

"I am sick of the cyclists here! If they are in the cycle lane, they are right on the very edge of the white line and this always causes the cars to swerve out and around them. This causes other oncoming cars to have to either slow or swerve as well. THIS SITUATION IS EXTREMELY DANGEROUS AND IS ALSO KNOWN AS 'IMPEDING TRAFFIC FLOW'.

I AM SICK TO DEATH OF CYCLISTS THINKING THAT THEY HAVE THE RIGHT OF WAY OR EVEN EQUAL RIGHTS ON OUR ROADS. THE DAY THEY CAN BE IN TRAFFIC OR AROUND TRAFFIC AND ACCELERATE WITH TRAFFIC AND RIDE AT THE POSTED SPEED LIMIT, AND NOT 'IMPEDE THE FLOW OF TRAFFIC' IS THE DAY THEY SHOULD BE CONSIDERED EQUAL...AND NOT UNTIL THAT TIME. "

For this guy, bigger is better so watch out! Maybe he needs to pull his stick out?

"If you want to ride your bike on the same road with cars be prepared to learn some physics - the big stick wins."

Anyway, I've already addressed the morons here: http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=4982381&postcount=51

yep if "problem" = minor inconvenience, then I think bikers by far cause more "problems" just by delaying a driver 5 seconds to slow down and go around. But if "problem" = injuries, deaths, $$$ in property damage, environmental and health issues, crippling personal debt, etc... then yeah it's a landslide by the motorists.

But the funny part (funny in that sad, pathetic way) is that the "delay" is usually not even for the whole trip - their total trip time is unaffected. It's merely a delay reaching some future stop light where they would have probably already been required to stop anyway. In other words, they will end up in the same queue of cars somewhere during their excursion whether they encountered the bicycle or not.

I've seen far more cyclists causing problems and breaking the law than motorcyclists.

I've seen far more cyclists causing problems and breaking the law than motorcyclists.

Yes, but the poll addresses "motorists", not motorcyclists.

The poll results aren't suprising.

It's always someone else's fault.

Yes, but the poll addresses "motorists", not motorcyclists.

That's what happens when I don't have my coffee. :eek:

One of the main reasons that cyclist "get in motorists' way" is so that they can avoid motor vehicles going ZERO miles an hour, parked on the side of the street.

fluckin' selfish pr!cks

I have not once seen a cyclist impede the flow of traffic, ever. I see several a day whether I'm driving or biking. It has never been even an inconvenience for me to allow for extra space on a two lane road or change lanes on a four lane road. If I saw a driver act in aggression toward a cyclist who was following the rules, even though it's "not my business" and I were driving as well, I would probably exchange words with the driver.

the sad thing is that the Portland Police actually use 'data' like this as an excuse to go out and bust more bicyclists....


:mad:

the sad thing is that the Portland Police actually use 'data' like this as an excuse to go out and bust more bicyclists....


:mad:

No kidding. This poll is like going to the Super Bowl and asking the crowd whether they think football players or ballroom dancers are sissies. Gee, I wonder what the overwhelming answer would be...

Good science I tell ya.

Bleh same drivel dif day in portland. This is what the 20 post about various driver nastyness over there? Maybe ill have to take a trip down there and have a little fun in my old time challenge road shoes and a key on a stick ....

what always gets me, is the sheer number of people who do not know the law. not even a little. sadly, even cops sometimes don't.

what always gets me, is the sheer number of people who do not know the law. not even a little. sadly, even cops sometimes don't.

BINGO!

And here we sit essentially educating one another... challenging one another about issues and taking to debate on the finer points of the law.

Meanwhile 45,000 motorists die each year because of some sort of violations... and then motorists point the fingers at us... while being blind to their own issues. Sigh. :rolleyes:

I myself carry cards with the laws pertaining to cyclists printed on them... anyone willing to listen, gets a card.

This is why I have argued time after tiime the best thing cycling advocacy can do is push for higher standards for drivers' licensing, and public service announcements regarding public use of the road.

It's not about telling "them" about "us," it IS about educating a vastly misinformed public, period.

Here is something amusing you can do... the next time you are in some public place, where free conversations are taking place... wedding reception, work... at the water cooler, party, it doesn't matter, but you should not be known as a cyclist... bring up the subject of cyclists on the road, and just listen to the opinions. Start by perhaps talking about the price of gas... then move the conversation to what drivers think about bikes. You will get an earfull. Mostly poor opinion or folks telling you what they think the laws are... (and they are generally wrong.) Just listen.

If this is a group of folks you know well... take the time to clue them in... otherwise, just remember what you heard. It will be quite surprising.

For a long time at my office I had posted the laws regarding cyclists use of the road on the outside of my cube. It really surprised me how many people came by and said "I didn't know that... " and the conversations would start from there.

Driver's ed is just enough to get folks out on the road... along the way the tidbits of info get twisted into misconceptions that become "law" in drivers' minds.

Yeah, there are a lot of misconceptions out there... and we often suffer for this lack of knowledge.

BINGO!

And here we sit essentially educating one another... challenging one another about issues and taking to debate on the finer points of the law.

Meanwhile 45,000 motorists die each year because of some sort of violations... and then motorists point the fingers at us... while being blind to their own issues. Sigh. :rolleyes:

I myself carry cards with the laws pertaining to cyclists printed on them... anyone willing to listen, gets a card.

This is why I have argued time after tiime the best thing cycling advocacy can do is push for higher standards for drivers' licensing, and public service announcements regarding public use of the road.

It's not about telling "them" about "us," it IS about educating a vastly misinformed public, period.

Here is something amusing you can do... the next time you are in some public place, where free conversations are taking place... wedding reception, work... at the water cooler, party, it doesn't matter, but you should not be known as a cyclist... bring up the subject of cyclists on the road, and just listen to the opinions. Start by perhaps talking about the price of gas... then move the conversation to what drivers think about bikes. You will get an earfull. Mostly poor opinion or folks telling you what they think the laws are... (and they are generally wrong.) Just listen.

If this is a group of folks you know well... take the time to clue them in... otherwise, just remember what you heard. It will be quite surprising.

For a long time at my office I had posted the laws regarding cyclists use of the road on the outside of my cube. It really surprised me how many people came by and said "I didn't know that... " and the conversations would start from there.

Driver's ed is just enough to get folks out on the road... along the way the tidbits of info get twisted into misconceptions that become "law" in drivers' minds.

Yeah, there are a lot of misconceptions out there... and we often suffer for this lack of knowledge.

The poll is very eye opening because it shows us the hatred that motorists have towards cyclists.

Gene, I agree that much of the problem comes from the public's lack of knowledge of the laws, but I believe that a large majority of motorists just detest cyclists, period, and even if they know the law, think the law is wrong believe that bicyclists should have no right to be on the road. These people continue to honk, buzz , swear , yell "get on the sidewalk", at cyclists because they don't care what the law is. They are cowards and at the moment they encounter a cyclist, they are in a 5000 pound car and will bully the cyclist.

Theres no arguing with these "bicycle bigots", their attitude is "God gave me a Hummer to crush you and your little bike".

Just ride accordingly. I bicycle with the attitude that I'm a paranoid until a driver shows me he's not trying to kill me.

what always gets me, is the sheer number of people who do not know the law. not even a little. sadly, even cops sometimes don't.

Heh true i remember a number of times some cop telling me to get on the side walk. My response the law states i can ride on the road and infact the law forbids any one above the age of 12 to ride bikes on the side walk.

You gotta love the way Portland bike lanes encourage motorists to respect our right to use the road:

If there is no bike lanes than don't ride your bikes. . . . So if no bike lanes get off the road.

You gotta love the way Portland bike lanes encourage motorists to respect our right to use the road:
She's a minority opinion. The predominant opinion of motorists who have issues with cyclists is that there should not be any bike lanes at all because we're not licensed, registered, paying gasoline taxes, etc. Most anti-bike motorists around here feel we have no right to the road in any fashion.

yep if "problem" = minor inconvenience, then I think bikers by far cause more "problems" just by delaying a driver 5 seconds to slow down and go around.


You think drivers are delayed more by cyclists than by other drivers? What about that twice a day thing called rush hour?

You think drivers are delayed more by cyclists than by other drivers? What about that twice a day thing called rush hour?

And during rush hour on a four lane road when they cars are packed like sardines going 40mph a cyclist taking the lane slows them down because every car must accomidate that cyclist they can't just move over and pass.
You have two lanes of traffic compressed into one just like if a car had broken down in the right lane.
Most times on most roads cyclists maybe cause a few seconds. The times people remember though are where they cause alot longer delay or are doing stupid stuff. It is unfortunate that there are so many cyclists that ride like crap around where I live. Law abiding predictable ones are an extreme minority of cyclists. The opposite is true mostly for motorists although they treat stop signs like yield signs too.

You think drivers are delayed more by cyclists than by other drivers? What about that twice a day thing called rush hour?

But that's what is so funny, nobody can seem to admit that! Let's use our imagination here. Imagine driving to work in the morning. Got it? How long did the trip take? OK, now imagine driving to work with all the bicycles that you would normally see, but absolutely no other cars or trucks on the road - none. Now, how long would the trip take? Did the bikes really slow you down, or was it really all the other cars?

And during rush hour on a four lane road when they cars are packed like sardines going 40mph a cyclist taking the lane slows them down because every car must accomidate that cyclist they can't just move over and pass.
You have two lanes of traffic compressed into one just like if a car had broken down in the right lane.



Even if that was completely true, and I wont argue it now, you honestly believe those delays from the cyclists you describe are MORE than the delays from other cars? As you said yourself, cars break down and take up those lanes, which is not uncommon, and delay traffic badly as well.

Dunno man, I see some streets that are backed up for miles and miles and it isnt because a cyclist is taking up one of the lanes, I bet some of those streets have never even seen a single cyclist during rush hour. Usually the freeways are just as clogged, and I can guarantee that isnt from cyclists taking up the lane like a broke down car.

Usually the freeways are just as clogged, and I can guarantee that isnt from cyclists taking up the lane like a broke down car.

Limited access, no controlled stops/intersections, yet the vehicles are as stationary as tents in a campsite...I wonder how that happens without pesky bicycles to blame?

Even if that was completely true, and I wont argue it now, you honestly believe those delays from the cyclists you describe are MORE than the delays from other cars? As you said yourself, cars break down and take up those lanes, which is not uncommon, and delay traffic badly as well.

Dunno man, I see some streets that are backed up for miles and miles and it isnt because a cyclist is taking up one of the lanes, I bet some of those streets have never even seen a single cyclist during rush hour. Usually the freeways are just as clogged, and I can guarantee that isnt from cyclists taking up the lane like a broke down car.
That is why I said "Most times on most roads cyclists maybe cause a few seconds." Of course highways where bicycles aren't most of the time or total and complete gridlock isn't a direct results of cyclists.. However there must be times when someone on here besides me has held up someone for alot longer then 5 seconds or realized they were holding up traffic a bit?? That is what a drivers remember and tell me all the time. "Cyclists shouldn't be on the road they cause all kinds of problems. I remember two years ago this guy took the lane and we all had to wait for miles in rush hour till they turned off".
Am I the only cyclist with this experience? If so I guess I'm to blame why all the motorists of the world hate us :p
I travel a ~4 mile 4 lane stretch of road daily. It is 45mph and at peak rush hour it is packed with cars doing 45mph +.. I avoid that time. there is no other road to get from here to there but I have gotten caught once or twice recently where I can look in my rear view and see traffic slow down as they try and figure out how to merge and get around me and cars trickle by me then speed off. I think cars slow cars down all the time but that is just normal. A bike slowing down cars is well "get on the sidewalk" time :D

Note: I've only ridden on the sidewalk about 60ft in 3 months because the road was just impassable otherwise.

My evening commute takes an hour whether I ride or drive. The traffic is terrible. I love the logic in the post from the woman that complains that the bikes go to the front, make everyone wait to pass, then go to the front again at the next light. Is it not obvious to her that everyone is taking the same amount of time to get from point A to point B, and that the bikes really aren't the problem?

Az

My evening commute takes an hour whether I ride or drive. The traffic is terrible. I love the logic in the post from the woman that complains that the bikes go to the front, make everyone wait to pass, then go to the front again at the next light. Is it not obvious to her that everyone is taking the same amount of time to get from point A to point B, and that the bikes really aren't the problem?

Az

It's the principle of the thing, really. She passed the cyclist, establishing dominance. Insolent cyclists don't know their place, that's the real problem here! :D

Kind of a no brainer. Comparing the vast numbers of motorists to the nmber of cyclists on America's roads, motorist are, by sheer numbers, going to cause more problems. Just because a few motorists get pissed that they were inconvenienced by a slower moving bike, or saw a rider run a stop sign, or obliviously cut a cyclist off and were confused by the cyclists reaction, doesn't change the statistically established fact that way more illegal and/or dangerous activities happen involving motorized vehicles than with bicycles.

I have to drive a truck as it is part of my job, I am very sorry to say as I drove down a very busy 6 lane road
I saw most bicycles riding on the side walk against traffic, others running lights and everything that is
against all I have learned about safe riding, and very few had a helmet.

Sad but true, to all the motorists on that road that is the view they have of the average bicyclist.

...The predominant opinion of motorists who have issues with cyclists is that there should not be any bike lanes at all because we're not licensed, registered, paying gasoline taxes, etc.

Those are all just excuses. Most people regard any deviation from what the greater herd is doing as "weird". Things just go downhill from there. People who complain about bikers not being licensed or registered or whatever really are people who dislike bicyclists first. Then they back into things like taxes and such so that they can sound more rational when they vent their irrational feelings. The dislike comes first; the justification second. It's that way with many things in life.

However there must be times when someone on here besides me has held up someone for alot longer then 5 seconds or realized they were holding up traffic a bit?? That is what a drivers remember and tell me all the time. "Cyclists shouldn't be on the road they cause all kinds of problems. I remember two years ago this guy took the lane and we all had to wait for miles in rush hour till they turned off".
Am I the only cyclist with this experience? If so I guess I'm to blame why all the motorists of the world hate us :p

Whether cyclists want to admit it or not, there are many times they hold up traffic more than a few seconds.

Just last night I was driving a road that I travel frequently. Usually the 10 mile strech of road takes about 10-12 minutes. Last night, there was a "cyclist" on the road. It's a narrow 2 lane road & he was actually riding the fog line (note: no shoulder, white fog line is the edge of the road). He really should have been taking the lane, as it's too narrow for a cyclist and a car, but I suppose he was trying to be a good citizen.

In any event, because of not being able to share the lane, cars had to wait for a gap in oncoming traffic to scoot around him. The 10 miles ended up taking me 26 minutes. Had I not been a cyclist, I probably would have been feeling a bit put out also. I ended up passing him around the middle of the strech & I was about 30 cars back when I encountered the "pile up". There were a good 60 cars behind me by the time I got by him, so I suspect some people were stuck for the rest of the road, doing under 10mph the whole way.

Since they'd already been in line behind me, I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up taking some people 50 minutes to traverse that 10 miles.

To say that cyclists never impead traffic, or only cost people a few seconds is inaccurate. I'm not saying YOU do it, but there are cyclists out there who impead traffic quite a bit. Sure it's their right to do so, but don't act surprised when drivers react negatively towards cyclists because of it. I maybe pass (in my car) 2 or 3 cyclists a month, I assume that's pretty standard for other drivers where I live. If one of those is a major impedement, how to you think other drivers will view cyclists? As a problem, not as a fellow traveler.

FWIW, I bike that strech of road quite often, but avoid it during rush hour, and at quite a bit of a brisker pace than 8mph. There is also a drive way I can duck into about 1/2 way if I notice that oncoming traffic has been heavy & there is a line behind me. I've done that several times.

That is why I said "Most times on most roads cyclists maybe cause a few seconds." Of course highways where bicycles aren't most of the time or total and complete gridlock isn't a direct results of cyclists.. However there must be times when someone on here besides me has held up someone for alot longer then 5 seconds or realized they were holding up traffic a bit?? That is what a drivers remember and tell me all the time. "Cyclists shouldn't be on the road they cause all kinds of problems. I remember two years ago this guy took the lane and we all had to wait for miles in rush hour till they turned off".
Am I the only cyclist with this experience? If so I guess I'm to blame why all the motorists of the world hate us :p
I travel a ~4 mile 4 lane stretch of road daily. It is 45mph and at peak rush hour it is packed with cars doing 45mph +.. I avoid that time. there is no other road to get from here to there but I have gotten caught once or twice recently where I can look in my rear view and see traffic slow down as they try and figure out how to merge and get around me and cars trickle by me then speed off. I think cars slow cars down all the time but that is just normal. A bike slowing down cars is well "get on the sidewalk" time :D

Note: I've only ridden on the sidewalk about 60ft in 3 months because the road was just impassable otherwise.

If it makes you feel any better, every day I experience looking in my rear view mirror and seeing a line of vehicles waiting to change lanes to pass me because I'm doing less than half the speed limit. This can last for as long as two minutes. If it were a one lane each way road, I'd pull over and let the mob pass but since they have a passing lane, they can deal with it. I've driven the same route that I ride in a car and the time difference for the whole trip is within a couple of minutes either way (I can pass some big backups on my bike). Also, depending on the timing of the lights, I can sometimes keep up with traffic for a few miles even with a 45mph posted speed limit.

FWIW, I bike that strech of road quite often, but avoid it during rush hour, and at quite a bit of a brisker pace than 8mph. There is also a drive way I can duck into about 1/2 way if I notice that oncoming traffic has been heavy & there is a line behind me. I've done that several times.

I would do the same thing in your situation as it is the courteous thing to do when traffic really has NO other option to pass you.

Whether cyclists want to admit it or not, there are many times they hold up traffic more than a few seconds.

Just last night I was driving a road that I travel frequently. Usually the 10 mile strech of road takes about 10-12 minutes. Last night, there was a "cyclist" on the road. It's a narrow 2 lane road & he was actually riding the fog line (note: no shoulder, white fog line is the edge of the road). He really should have been taking the lane, as it's too narrow for a cyclist and a car, but I suppose he was trying to be a good citizen.

In any event, because of not being able to share the lane, cars had to wait for a gap in oncoming traffic to scoot around him. The 10 miles ended up taking me 26 minutes. Had I not been a cyclist, I probably would have been feeling a bit put out also. I ended up passing him around the middle of the strech & I was about 30 cars back when I encountered the "pile up". There were a good 60 cars behind me by the time I got by him, so I suspect some people were stuck for the rest of the road, doing under 10mph the whole way.
[edited to shorten]


By 'no shoulder' do you mean a relatively unrideable shoulder, or do you mean a cliff or solid concrete wall, or other impassable barrier? If that is the case, I would certainly find this to be an unpleasant ride, if I was stuck I guess I probably would use the driveway to let the pile up get past me. If on the other hand 'no shoulder' means unrideable loose or steep gravel, it seems to me a periodic dismount might be the solution.

Going back to the original poll - the meaning of 'problems' is quite vague. If we mean traffic fatalities, congestion, and general morbidity due to poor health and collisions clearly motor vehicles cause a lot more problems.
12 ft. wide roadway is quite adequate to 100's or thousands of two-way cyclists an hour, and such a roadway requires far less understructure, and much cheaper bridges than a motorway that carries an equivalent number of cars.

Bike on bike, bike on pedestrian, and just bike collisions do cause many injuries a year (including many devastating head injuries), but nowhere near the carnage caused by motor vehicle collisions to other motor vehicles, cyclists, pedestrians, and rollerbladers.

If by problems, we mean the trillions of dollars of infrastructure deficits, and the hundreds of thousands killed or injured every year, and the hundreds of billions of dollars of lost productivity while people are idling their cars in traffic jams when they could be working or spending time with their families, then I think motorists are causing problems.

Note that I realise that many people choose to drive, and I'm sure that they are aware of these problems, so it's a problem of consumers choosing to put up with these issues. I just get annoyed when people try to blame problems of their own making on cyclists.

Idiots cause more problems. There is 2% of the population that is pure idiot. There are millions more drivers than cyclists. 2% x millions more = easy math It's too bad so many idiots can't do the math.