Bicycle Mechanics - chain tool idiocy....

I experienced my first broken chain the other day. One of the outer plates popped off the rivet and made a horrible racket when it went through the rear derailler. Thankfully it didn't completely fail or I no doubt would have eaten the top bar on a very hilly ride. Post incident analysis revealed that the failure occurred where I had rejoined the chain to add a few links for a larger freewheel, so it was a link that had been removed and reattached, by me. There was also some bulging of the area around the hole in the outer plate. I can only deduce that I screwed up putting this link back together and caused the deformity by not having everything perfectly aligned when I put the chain back together. I figured better safe than sorry and replaced the link that failed, but it took me three tries to get the stupid thing back together without causing some deformity around the hole where the pin goes into the outer plate. Is there some trick to getting the holes and plates and pins aligned correctly that I am missing? It seems like every chain has a little variance in the shape of the outer plates, maybe this one just doesn't fit my chain tool correctly? I bet I have done this a couple dozen times without a problem, but this particular chain is being difficult.

What kind of chain are you using? Some brands (i.e. Shimano 8/9/10 speed) advise against reusing pins and sell self-guided break-off pins instead. PIA if you ask me, and when I was 120 lb I reused pins all the time without fail, but now that I am heavier and put more strain on the drivetrain, I follow the rules.

Pretty much all modern chains are not meant to be broken and pressed together again.

Shimano has their proprietary pins, other manufacturers use various master links, but all of them are an attempt to keep the peened pins on the chain intact. Break the chain once to size it, apply the master link or pin and that's it. If the chain breaks, needs to be resized or wears out, you buy a new one and start over...or add another master link or pin.

I do miss the old days of being able to break a chain and reinstall it, but considering it's about $15 to replace a chain, that's cheaper than destroying a rear derailleur or the medical bills for a chainring peircing.

Don't doubt your skills man. I'm sure you did a good job...the chains are just designed for planned obsolescence.

Sach Sedis chains are the only chains that the pins can pressed out and re-pressed in, unlike the poor quality shimano chains that force you to buy a new pin every time you disassemble the chain (weekly for some of us).

Why does that make them poor quality? And why on earth do you need to break your chain every week?!

Sach Sedis chains are the only chains that the pins can pressed out and re-pressed in, unlike the poor quality shimano chains that force you to buy a new pin every time you disassemble the chain (weekly for some of us).

the sachs sedis chains had a link with a softer sideplate, which was where you broke and reconnected the chain. i used sachs sedis chains for years and thousands and thousands of miles and regularly broke my chain to clean it.

never had a problem.

i recently has a SRAM quick link partially pop open after crossing some RR tracks. not sure what that was all about but i did replace the quick link just in case.

ed rader

Why does that make them poor quality? And why on earth do you need to break your chain every week?!


what makes Shimano poor quality: planned obselesence, by needing a new pin every time you break the chain for removal or immersion cleaning. The Sach Sedis chains can be broke and reassembled without needing a new pin every time. Try being 500 kms from the nearest bike shop, and you have used up you last shimano pin......(ie: broken chain from too much torque, repairs etc). You will never go back to shimano after that.


why do i break apart my chain every week? Because i have a carburator dip tank with carb cleaner, and nothing cleans a chain better than a nice soak in carb cleaner. Its a weekly ritual, over cold beers and loud music, along with a frame cleaning and wheel check, that i quite enjoy every week. Start the week with a chemically clean chain, lube it up and off i go, clean chain, clean and silent bike. i sometimes also change the gear ratio, depending on my mood, which require a longer or shorter chain

what makes Shimano poor quality: planned obselesence, by needing a new pin every time you break the chain for removal or immersion cleaning.

According to Shimano, you should never remove the chain for cleaning.

Ignore the manufacturers instructions and blame them when a problem results? That shows poor judgement, at the least.

Btw, as much of a PITA as replacement pins are, they are pretty cost effective. The cost of four pins is roughly equal the cost of a (stand-alone) quick link, so if you R&R the chain fewer than four times (entirely reasonable if you're not removing it for cleaning) you save $$.

i sometimes also change the gear ratio, depending on my mood, which require a longer or shorter chain

Wow, that's some ratio change!

This is slightly off-topic but, how often does a chain just plain old break on you? I just broke a chain that was only 3 weeks old and was fairly pissed that it broke so easily.

Never.


Except once where I apparently didn't seat the quick link properly and it came apart.

why do i break apart my chain every week? Because i have a carburator dip tank with carb cleaner, and nothing cleans a chain better than a nice soak in carb cleaner. Its a weekly ritual, over cold beers and loud music, along with a frame cleaning and wheel check, that i quite enjoy every week. Start the week with a chemically clean chain, lube it up and off i go, clean chain, clean and silent bike. i sometimes also change the gear ratio, depending on my mood, which require a longer or shorter chain

As a hobbyist nutcase of almost sixty years I can well relate to that. That's akin to bare-hand rubbing Danish oil on a favorite shotgun's stock once a week during a TV watching. Or a once every few weeks inventory of model rr brass detail parts on-hand. etc. Doesn't matter that I may not have bought anything new or used anything since the last inventory. The real object is just the fondling of the hobby object. Good therapy. Right-on Bushman
alf

Fine, but what if the brass parts' manufacturer said, "Do not fondle — fondling causes corrosion," and you ignored it for your weekly fun. Perfectly justifiable. But...

Would you then announce that the parts were ****ty because they corroded? That's what Bushman is doing.

Is there a way to bulk purchase master links or some kind of one time connector link? $4 a crack is a bit steep and I am screwing with my bikes too much to replace chains all the time. Not to mention the last time I bought a Bell chain at Walmart the thing was a couple links too short for my application so I had to extend it from the start.

I still think I am screwing up with the chain tool though, the links I added were from an old 7 or 8 speed chain.

EDIT: disregard, I found 6-packs of KMC missing links online for $9, I guess thats cheap enough

Wow, that's some ratio change!


:rolleyes: yes, yes it is. Sometimes on my SINGLESPEED i will swap out the 46 front for a 32, and the 16 rear cog for a 20, so i can hit the trails locally, instead of the nice flat roads everywhere else when i commute. It requires the removal of a few links. No biggie, takes seconds and i enjoy working on my bike. :)

now back to you BFROMCOLO

Oh, I'm not against quick links. I use Wipperman Connex on 9+speeds and KMC Missing Link on older chains. There are certainly legitimate reasons to R&R chains and in those cases Shimano is not the right chain. That doesn't make them a bad choice in all cases. I actually prefer that there's an alternative to reusing pins when a quick link isn't appropriate. For instance, when you have to lengthen a chain that already has a quick link...

Which reminds me. I have to go swap wheels for the century this weekend. Did a new one last weekend and left the 11-23 on it. No one told us that damn thing was half vertical! :mad:

As a hobbyist nutcase of almost sixty years I can well relate to that. That's akin to bare-hand rubbing Danish oil on a favorite shotgun's stock once a week during a TV watching. Or a once every few weeks inventory of model rr brass detail parts on-hand. etc. Doesn't matter that I may not have bought anything new or used anything since the last inventory. The real object is just the fondling of the hobby object. Good therapy. Right-on Bushman
alf

I like this analogy because gun enthusiasts know that over-care is one of the leading causes of wear in a firearm.

If you want to remove a chain on a regular basis use a master link. They work.

Pretty much all modern chains are not meant to be broken and pressed together again.

Shimano has their proprietary pins, other manufacturers use various master links, but all of them are an attempt to keep the peened pins on the chain intact. Break the chain once to size it, apply the master link or pin and that's it. If the chain breaks, needs to be resized or wears out, you buy a new one and start over...or add another master link or pin.

That being said... I've removed and reassembled pins from Shimano 7/8/9-speed, KMC 7/8-speed, and SRAM 7/8/9-speed chains. All without ill effects. I like the Master Links on KMC and SRAM chains a lot.

I was too cheap to buy replacement pins/master links, and have not had any trouble ever replacing the original links as long as I do it fairly carefully. Not sure how representative my experience is...

Pretty much all modern chains are not meant to be broken and pressed together again.

Shimano has their proprietary pins, other manufacturers use various master links, but all of them are an attempt to keep the peened pins on the chain intact. Break the chain once to size it, apply the master link or pin and that's it. If the chain breaks, needs to be resized or wears out, you buy a new one and start over...or add another master link or pin.

I do miss the old days of being able to break a chain and reinstall it, but considering it's about $15 to replace a chain, that's cheaper than destroying a rear derailleur or the medical bills for a chainring peircing.

Don't doubt your skills man. I'm sure you did a good job...the chains are just designed for planned obsolescence.

THIS is one of many reasons why i will NOT buy modern crap for my vintage road bikes. I've had my Regina Oros apart DOZENS of times and NEVER had a chain failure. In fact, my oldest Oro doesn't even have any measurable chain wear!

why do i break apart my chain every week? Because i have a carburator dip tank with carb cleaner, and nothing cleans a chain better than a nice soak in carb cleaner. Its a weekly ritual, over cold beers and loud music, along with a frame cleaning and wheel check, that i quite enjoy every week. Start the week with a chemically clean chain, lube it up and off i go, clean chain, clean and silent bike. i sometimes also change the gear ratio, depending on my mood, which require a longer or shorter chain

That's too funny - I wax my bike often but don't clean the chain weekly.

Any chain mfr (can we all say sh!tmano) that says not to break the chain to clean it is full of ***** IM(not so)HO :D

I like this analogy because gun enthusiasts know that over-care is one of the leading causes of wear in a firearm.

You can over do things. I only clean my AR-15 AFTER i use it. A quick apply of Break Free CLP on the bolt before use is all it needs to not jam in use...

This is slightly off-topic but, how often does a chain just plain old break on you? I just broke a chain that was only 3 weeks old and was fairly pissed that it broke so easily.

In 116,000 total miles and typically 5000 miles on a chain between replacements the number of breakages has been ZERO. All have been Shimano chains except for a couple of Sedis chains in the mid-80's and one Wipperman on a current bike.

In 116,000 total miles and typically 5000 miles on a chain between replacements the number of breakages has been ZERO. All have been Shimano chains except for a couple of Sedis chains in the mid-80's and one Wipperman on a current bike.


You didn't say sh!tmano! :D

my oldest Oro doesn't even have any measurable chain wear!

Yeah they'll do that if you never ride them.

[QUOTE=rmfnla;4995789]I like this analogy because gun enthusiasts know that over-care is one of the leading causes of wear in a firearm.
QUOTE]

Wasn't I specific enuf when I said, "That's akin to bare-hand rubbing Danish oil on a favorite shotgun's stock once a week during a TV watching." ?

alf

OK this has been entertaining, but lest we lose track of the original question let me try again. I am having a problem rejoining links with my chain tool. Specifically sometimes I don't get everything aligned just right and damage the outer plate when trying to push the pin through. Perhaps the chain in question is not designed to be broken and rejoined. Perhaps I don't spend enough time cleaning my guns. Maybe I don't ride my oldest bike enough. Or fondle my brass parts too much. But assuming this was not the case here, how do you make sure everything is in alignment before you try to push the pin through?

a couple questions: what chain tool are you using? and when you re-join the chain, are you trying to do it under tension, or is the chain slack while you are pushing the pin back through? a tip here would be to have the chain be slack while you push the pin back. a good way to do this is to either take the chain off the chainrings, or make a little tool out of a spoke to hold the chain. if the chain has tension in it while you're pushing the pin through, it can move the links out of alignment.

also, some chain tools aren't made as precisely as others. i use park CT-3s at work, and i have a topeak droid chain tool for on the road repairs, and a shimano HG chain tool for home use, all three are excellent, with my favorite being the CT-3.

if you're using a quality tool, and the chain doesn't have tension in it, and you still have problems, then all i can say is practice makes perfect.

This is a Park CT-5. It is under some small amount of tension with the chain on the small-small combo, I can take the chain off the front ring altogether and see if that is the issue. Thanks.

You didn't say sh!tmano! :D

No, and I didn't say Crap-anolo either. Both are ridiculous generalizations. :p

It is under some small amount of tension

http://www.biketoolsetc.com/Product_Images/YC-207.jpg (http://www.biketoolsetc.com/index.cgi?&d=single&item_id=YC-207)

Image is clickable.

Just did my first link removal (new derailleur) in 25 years. Totally flimsy links. I used to split my chain quite a bit to soak in oil etc. Then you used a split link...easy. Still removed links with tool to shorten etc.Today, as I pushed the pin back in, I thought it was going to bend. Instead of finding is way into the hole,it felt like it was forcing a new hole. Went ok in the end.A little too stiff for my liking. Why are they all endless chains now?

If the chain breaks, needs to be resized or wears out, you buy a new one and start over...or add another master link or pin.

I had an ultegra chain that was practically new fail on me. I replaced the pin with a new special shimano pin and all has been well so far.

Why are they all endless chains now?
Derailleur chains have been "endless" for decades. In fact, the current crop of removable/reusable master links from SRAM, Wipperman, etc is a fairly recent development.

Yeah they'll do that if you never ride them.

No, it's called proper lubrication and cleaning.

If you try and use an older chain tool on the 10 spd chain you probably will build in a failure. I am using a Pedros chain tool for 10 spd and a very old one (brand???) for non 10spd chains. I learned the hard way that the hollow pin chains need to have the special link by Shimano and Campy to be successful. I am getting away from Record ultrathin chains and have gone to Veloce 10spd Ultrathin with the solid pin. no problems getting the chain to work with the old pin. On the hollow pin chain I use a Connex removable link when I size the chain and hookup the chain to the build. I have purchased a minitool Topek w/chain tool 9spd or older and a new Park I-Beam tool with the 10spd Chain Tool.

I have never followed Shimano's rules about breaking the chain.
I break the chain where I want and peen the pins after I put it back together.
Never had a failure.

I have never followed Shimano's rules about breaking the chain.
I break the chain where I want and peen the pins after I put it back together.
Never had a failure.

If you are able to do this with a hollow pin chain let me know.

If you try and use an older chain tool on the 10 spd chain you probably will build in a failure. I am using a Pedros chain tool for 10 spd and a very old one (brand???) for non 10spd chains. I learned the hard way that the hollow pin chains need to have the special link by Shimano and Campy to be successful. I am getting away from Record ultrathin chains and have gone to Veloce 10spd Ultrathin with the solid pin. no problems getting the chain to work with the old pin. On the hollow pin chain I use a Connex removable link when I size the chain and hookup the chain to the build. I have purchased a minitool Topek w/chain tool 9spd or older and a new Park I-Beam tool with the 10spd Chain Tool.

i use a 15 year old CT-3 for all types of chains, including 10-speed on a daily basis on hundreds of chains per month with no problems whatsoever. don't believe the hype about 10 speed specific tools. in fact, the only chain tool i've ever had problems with has been the pedro's one. the (NON-REPLACABLE unless you buy the whole handle) pin bends a tiny bit, and then every shimano pin breaks when you start to push it through, the chain holder part of it breaks off...it's a BS tool. i like a lot of the other pedro's tools, but not the chain tool.

Derailleur chains have been "endless" for decades. In fact, the current crop of removable/reusable master links from SRAM, Wipperman, etc is a fairly recent development.

Its decades since I owned a bike. Stopped at age 14/15 am now 42, you work it out :)
So this recent development means they are going back to how they used to be?

[QUOTE=rmfnla;4995789]I like this analogy because gun enthusiasts know that over-care is one of the leading causes of wear in a firearm.
QUOTE]

Wasn't I specific enuf when I said, "That's akin to bare-hand rubbing Danish oil on a favorite shotgun's stock once a week during a TV watching." ?

alf

I'm not sure.

Your post seems to endorse unnecessary "maintenance" because it's fun. My point is that it's best to do maintenance only when it is necessary, not just because there's no crossword puzzle handy.

Rubbing oil (Danish or otherwise) on a shotgun stock is fairly benign but continually breaking a bike chain will result in a lot of weak links.

I know it's fashionable to bash Shimano but they developed their chain design to cope with the additional stresses caused by Hyperglide gear teeth.

Master links are so easy to use that this should be a non-issue, regardless of whose chain you use.

The only time I remove a chain is to replace it. I get between 5000 and 7000 miles out of a Shimano Ultegra or Dura-Ace or Campagnolo chain. I clean them once a week on the bikes.

Al

Speaking of chain pins, for 10 speed chains is a different chain tool needed? I've got an old chain tool I used to use on 8 and 9 speed MTB chains, and it seems too large of a ping for my 105 10spd chain.

[QUOTE=old_alfie;4998069]

Your post seems to endorse unnecessary "maintenance" because it's fun. My point is that it's best to do maintenance only when it is necessary, not just because there's no crossword puzzle handy.

Master links are so easy to use that this should be a non-issue, regardless of whose chain you use.

OK I am the OP in this case. I have some old bikes and live in a very hilly neighborhood. I am routinely trying out new combos, smaller chain rings, larger freewheels, mtn bike rear deraillers to try and get a combo on a double that I can live with. So I have been breaking the chain more than normal. I think a 38 front and a 32 rear give me what I need until I get a road bike with a triple front or a compact double. Anyway none of this is anything other than fitting the chain properly to the combo dujour.

http://www.biketoolsetc.com/Product_Images/YC-207.jpg (http://www.biketoolsetc.com/index.cgi?&d=single&item_id=YC-207)

Image is clickable.

Do not spend money on this tool, as you can make your own. I made mine using the flat part of a wire coat-hanger. All I did was bend the piece into a V, then bend the top of the V in about half an inch at both ends. It works great, and you are also recycling those ubiquitous wire cloth-hangers that come with your dry-cleanings.

Regards,

Do not spend money on this tool, as you can make your own. I made mine using the flat part of a wire coat-hanger. All I did was bend the piece into a V, then bend the top of the V in about half an inch at both ends. It works great, and you are also recycling those ubiquitous wire cloth-hangers that come with your dry-cleanings.

Regards,
spend money? its listed as $2.50 - Thats not much money...
Although I dont' quite get what it does exactly

i use a 15 year old CT-3 for all types of chains, including 10-speed on a daily basis on hundreds of chains per month with no problems whatsoever. don't believe the hype about 10 speed specific tools. in fact, the only chain tool i've ever had problems with has been the pedro's one. the (NON-REPLACABLE unless you buy the whole handle) pin bends a tiny bit, and then every shimano pin breaks when you start to push it through, the chain holder part of it breaks off...it's a BS tool. i like a lot of the other pedro's tools, but not the chain tool.

Sounds like you are very practiced. Are you able to use the CT-3 on the new hollow pin chains and do you use the special pin or can you simple reuse the old hollow pin?
I have problems putting the old solid 10 spd links back in with the spacing on my conventionial chain tool and get a proper fit without using an old link for backing. If you have a secret let me know.

the hollow pin chains are exactly the same as solid pin chains, the same tool works for them as well. i always use a brand new connector pin when re-installing a chain, i have no reason not to, as we've got them in stock, and not using it could lead to a failure for which i would be responsible.

spend money? its listed as $2.50 - Thats not much money...
Although I dont' quite get what it does exactly

Coat hanger wire breaks after a few flexes.

A chain grabber grabs both end of a broken chain and keeps the tension off while you install pin or link. Makes the work a lot easier. Possibly the best $2.50 I've spent on a bike.

Coat hanger wire breaks after a few flexes.

A chain grabber grabs both end of a broken chain and keeps the tension off while you install pin or link. Makes the work a lot easier. Possibly the best $2.50 I've spent on a bike.

My coat hanger wire home-made tool has lasted me the better part of two years thus far. If it ever breaks, I am sure I can always find another wire hanger. It is just not about spending the money, but about recycling too.

Then don't dry-clean.