Did anyone read the article in Sports Illustrated about the tour "False Positive". It was awful. THe writer Austin Murphy Called cycling "a laughingstock of a sport" and " This being an odd-numbered year, the tour proceeded in a clockwise direction around the countryside, like water swirling down a commode. That appeared to be the destination of this event." and " As corporations rethink their investment in athletes who have repeatedly proved that they cannot be trusted, the question must be asked: is this a sport in its death throes." I would think that a sports mag. that is educated about sports would know about cycling and atleast respect it. yes the tour has problems but it's also the most tested sport. NOt like baseball basketball and football have any problems right now

I think the author of this article, http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hill/070731&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab3pos1, has a good idea why the SI author chose to ignore the obvious - hypocrisy.

Americans can be hypocrites in the performance-enhancers debate
By Jemele Hill
Page 2

Updated: July 31, 2007, 3:08 PM ET

Excuse us, kind Frenchmen. We Americans can be haughty. We can be delusional. We can be accusatory, and we love laughing at you while ignoring the outrageousness of our own situations.

We sat here for the past week or so, high and mighty in our sports ivory towers, ridiculing the Tour de France, which concluded with numerous doping scandals and a heavy cloak of embarrassment.

And yet during all of these doping headlines, as one rider after another was snared in impropriety, we carefully avoided asking an important question:

How on earth could a clean man dominate a sport riddled with this many dirty riders?

Anyway, we'll save that conversation for another day. For now, let's stick to the American hypocrisy of lambasting a sport and a country for doing far more to clean up sports than we do.

What Americans would never, ever want to do is what cycling officials did. We would never want to let a band of doping experts loose on American athletes. We are far too comfortable being entertained by dirty athletes to want to see any real cleansing take place.

Just imagine if the same vigilant testers used in cycling set up shop in American pro sports leagues. How many times would we read about American athletes being busted for performance-enhancing drugs on the ESPN crawl?

That's an uncomfortable discussion. That's why despite the blustering and grandstanding with all the major sports leagues on Capitol Hill, they would be unlikely to sanction a universal system that would require random testing of pro athletes' urine and blood.

Michael Rasmussen, the Tour de France leader after Stage 16, dodged drug tests prior to the Tour, leading to his team sending him home. I can only imagine how creative NFL players would be if they knew they would have to test clean before the playoffs and Super Bowl.

And while we can make all the jokes we want about Floyd Landis, last year's Tour champion, the most glorified record in American sports is on the verge of being shattered by a man with numerous ties to performance-enhancing drugs. Tour officials already don't recognize Landis as the champion and are pushing the United States Anti-Doping Agency to strip Landis of the title. Bud Selig wishes he had such an option with Barry Bonds.

Last year, the most feared defensive player in the NFL -- which only happens to be the most powerful sports league in America -- was suspended four games because he violated the league's steroid policy. The dirty Tour de France cyclists were expelled from the event, and some were fired from their teams. But Shawne Merriman still played in the Pro Bowl and every sack he has earned still counts.

And yet with a straight face some of us refer to cycling as the dirtiest sport in the world. That's rich.

There is no way American sports are any cleaner than cycling. In fact, if our sports were held to world anti-doping standards, the cycling's scandals would seem mild by comparison.

Americans love to be entertained, often at the expense of our judgment, morals and values.

We don't want to know what lies behind the performance-enhancing trap doors. Cycling officials have at least been brave enough to want to lift the mask. Knowing that cleaner sports would mean decreased competition and decreased fun, many of us gladly accept the tradeoff of a little dirt.

We can continue to harshly criticize the Tour de France, but its officials wanted to know the truth, even if it meant shaming the sport before the world. So the question shouldn't be what has gone wrong in cycling, but rather what's gone right.

Page 2 columnist Jemele Hill can be reached at jemeleespn@gmail.com.

Americans love to be _____________, often at the expense of our judgment, morals and values.
Fill in the blank with just about anything, and it's probably true.

To paraphrase patentcad: Hypocrisy RULES!

Did anyone read the article in Sports Illustrated about the tour "False Positive". It was awful. THe writer Austin Murphy Called cycling "a laughingstock of a sport" and " This being an odd-numbered year, the tour proceeded in a clockwise direction around the countryside, like water swirling down a commode. That appeared to be the destination of this event." and " As corporations rethink their investment in athletes who have repeatedly proved that they cannot be trusted, the question must be asked: is this a sport in its death throes." I would think that a sports mag. that is educated about sports would know about cycling and atleast respect it. yes the tour has problems but it's also the most tested sport. NOt like baseball basketball and football have any problems right now

When are you going to learn to stop trying to compare yourself with sports that have a massive followings? Theres a different set of rules for niche sports and mega sports. The sooner cycling fans realize this the sooner it can address the real status and health of the sport.

The tour has problems? Ya THINK?? The last 2 years have been a little more than a "problem." When the winner, pre-race favorite and current leader all get kicked out in 2 years. Add that to the fact that the best cyclist arent even there due to ties with a massive doping investigation. Yea the TdF has problems and they cut FAR deeper than any of the sins in the NFL or MLB.

Yeah, I about barfed while reading SI's Tour article last night. But bringing Barry Bonds into the equation doesn't exactly prove that we Americans are hypocritical. Its not like he is getting lots of love outside of SF or from MLB. Who other than Landis is taking as much heat for PEDs?? Maybe the case could be made back when Sosa and McGuire were chasing Ruth, but not now...

Did anyone read the article in Sports Illustrated about the tour "False Positive". It was awful. THe writer Austin Murphy Called cycling "a laughingstock of a sport" and " This being an odd-numbered year, the tour proceeded in a clockwise direction around the countryside, like water swirling down a commode. That appeared to be the destination of this event." and " As corporations rethink their investment in athletes who have repeatedly proved that they cannot be trusted, the question must be asked: is this a sport in its death throes." I would think that a sports mag. that is educated about sports would know about cycling and atleast respect it. yes the tour has problems but it's also the most tested sport. NOt like baseball basketball and football have any problems right now

Nationalism completely out of the equation for a moment, maybe you should write to SI and complain and they'll publish you, eh? Cycling is about the only sport that has the BALLS to kick out entire teams and the leader of the biggest race in the sport. Can you see football, baseball, et al doing that? Hell no. Imagine Barry Bonds removed from a game after he's broken the home run record, or a quarterback being yanked during the Superbowl. Never gonna happen. :rolleyes:

My assertion is that the major American sports are being penny-smart, pound foolish when it comes to drug testing. Sometime in the future, a player is going to either die or go all Chris Beniot (WWE reference) and guess who is going to come a knocking....the United States Congress.

I am actually shocked that Austin Murphy would be so unfair towards cycling? Many of his other posts were even-handed, and I wonder if SI's editor felt that it needed to be more critical if it was going to even get into Sports Illustrated (which might as well be NFL/NBA/MLB illustrated). Austin Murphy is a triathlete as well, and considers the TdF to be the most beautiful sport in the world.

But here is the kicker: Austin Murphy covers, get this, College Football. Football is THE DIRTIEST sport in the world. Seriously - Americans are able to suspend all logic and believe that it is natural for someone weighing 245 pounds to run a 40 as fast as track and field athletes from the first 1/2 of the century. Sure....

My assertion is that the major American sports are being penny-smart, pound foolish when it comes to drug testing. Sometime in the future, a player is going to either die or go all Chris Beniot (WWE reference) and guess who is going to come a knocking....the United States Congress.

I am actually shocked that Austin Murphy would be so unfair towards cycling? Many of his other posts were even-handed, and I wonder if SI's editor felt that it needed to be more critical if it was going to even get into Sports Illustrated (which might as well be NFL/NBA/MLB illustrated). Austin Murphy is a triathlete as well, and considers the TdF to be the most beautiful sport in the world.

But here is the kicker: Austin Murphy covers, get this, College Football. Football is THE DIRTIEST sport in the world. Seriously - Americans are able to suspend all logic and believe that it is natural for someone weighing 245 pounds to run a 40 as fast as track and field athletes from the first 1/2 of the century. Sure....

Congress isnt going to come knocking on anyones door other than Baseballs, and thats because baseball has a no compete clause. They have a lock on baseball in the USA and is therefore subject to an occasional government probe. Football and Basketball wont have anyone knocking on their door because other leagues can be started and if they can provide a better product then people will watch. It hasnt worked NUMEROUS times for the football and basketball is already dying anyways.

Americans LOVE football. LOVE, love, LOve, LOVe, LOVE football. They love the sport MORE than they love the athletes that play it. Its not a personality driven league like the NBA. People simply love the sport of football. Its growing every year and is showing zero signs of weakening. And that is why they have no problem with the HGH use in the NFL. The NFL has had a steroid policy in place for decades and it has kept everyone happy and rich for many years. College football is way cleaner than the pros, btw.

WAKE-UP cycling fans. This argument of "the other guy is doing it" isnt going to get you anywhere. Especially when you start trying to compare the sport of cycling with the NFL or MLB. Those sports can afford to have the occasional screw up because of their massive popularity. Cycling doesnt have that margin to work with. In fact its a negative margin at this point.

As for the article. SI covers plenty of the bad stuff that happens in the big 3. And unfortunately SI gets only one shot at cycling. And when it is as screwed up as it was this year, what did you expect they were going to write to an american audience? How great Contador looked out of saddle on his accelerations? What an amazing aerodynamic position Levi held himself in for the final TT? The super domestiqe effort put in by team Disco Popo? You are simply fooling yourselves if you think anyone is going to read that article in SI. The TdF in the eyes of SI was a failure this year, can you really blame them for seeing it that way? SI's articles when LA was winning were glowing. When Landis won pre-test result, it was glowing.

...SI covers plenty of the bad stuff that happens in the big 3. And unfortunately SI gets only one shot at cycling. And when it is as screwed up as it was this year, what did you expect they were going to write to an american audience? How great Contador looked out of saddle on his accelerations? What an amazing aerodynamic position Levi held himself in for the final TT? The super domestiqe effort put in by team Disco Popo? You are simply fooling yourselves if you think anyone is going to read that article in SI. The TdF in the eyes of SI was a failure this year, can you really blame them for seeing it that way? SI's articles when LA was winning were glowing. When Landis won pre-test result, it was glowing.

i agree with your point, there is absolutely a perception that TdF this year was a failure. (and i do feel that there was some great racing this year, too, and that should have been the subject of the SI article, which i have not seen).

but what created this? in part, and particularly for US audiences, perhaps we can look to the Vs. television coverage -- especially Al Trautwig's commentary at the opening of the shows -- that routinely criticized cycling and cyclists, but had very little to say about the overall doping situation in all sports.

i hear from my wife (who is way into cycling and the sport of cycling) that the NY Times has a reporter who also loves to write about cycling's problems.

i would have liked to have heard Bob Roll or someone on Vs. talk about how the OP evidence related to other euro-sports such as (european) football are ignored, while the cyclists are prosecuted / persecuted.

(in addition, i'd also have liked to hear them speak more about tactics, gear, behind-the-scenes . . . it seemed that way too much of it was on the surface and aimed at viewers flipping around. nonetheless, i taped the whole damn race again this year).

thank god on Vs. it's back to cage fighting and deer hunting on -- real sports! -- and no more of the skinny dudes in spandex, riding kids' toys.

...
As for the article. SI covers plenty of the bad stuff that happens in the big 3. And unfortunately SI gets only one shot at cycling. And when it is as screwed up as it was this year, what did you expect they were going to write to an american audience? How great Contador looked out of saddle on his accelerations? What an amazing aerodynamic position Levi held himself in for the final TT? The super domestiqe effort put in by team Disco Popo? You are simply fooling yourselves if you think anyone is going to read that article in SI. The TdF in the eyes of SI was a failure this year, can you really blame them for seeing it that way? SI's articles when LA was winning were glowing. When Landis won pre-test result, it was glowing.

Ignorance can never be excused. :D Yes. I can blame them.

What is there to respect about this sport? Comparison to football, baseball, basketball, etc. is a fool's errand. Cycling has done more to clean itself up than these other sports - maybe so, maybe not, I don't know - maybe cycling has a lot more cleaning up to do than any of these other sports to begin with. Whatever the case is, this sport is full of dopers, the efforts to clean itself up are not working and I'm guessing they haven't been working either for a long time (sorry Lance). Perhaps cycling is winning the race to the bottom. If cycling wants to put itself out as a clean sport it has a huge credibility gap to overcome. What exactly is there to respect here?

Congress isnt going to come knocking on anyones door other than Baseballs, and thats because baseball has a no compete clause. They have a lock on baseball in the USA and is therefore subject to an occasional government probe. Football and Basketball wont have anyone knocking on their door because other leagues can be started and if they can provide a better product then people will watch. It hasnt worked NUMEROUS times for the football and basketball is already dying anyways.



I dis-agree on this. Remember, most PED's are ILLEGAL in the United States. If a major player in one of these leagues dies or does something that can be linked to use of PED's, I think Congress will look into it, if enough of the general public begins to turn against such use. A big if, especially as you stated in football, where it seems America has an almost Roman/Gladiator relationship with this sport. The US Government has the authority to establish doping control standards if they want to, regardless if there is the absence of a non-compete clause. They regulate a lot less than that!!

But I think part of the reason the American public is not as angered or upset with these sports is because the drug use has really not been exposed. Right now the American people think there is adequate testing in these sports. But if something ocurrs where the current testing is exposed as a sham, you will see Americans demand action. Remember, if Americans did not care about doping, they would not be booing Barry Bonds and Mark McGuire would have been forgiven.

The rules are just different.

One MLB player (Neifi Perez) got suspended for 80 games (rest of the season) for his THIRD offense. If MLB operated the same way as pro cycling, Bonds and a host of other players would have been barred long ago for suspicion of steroid abuse.

In the NFL (Shawn Merriman), the best defensive player and last years defensive player of the year would have been booted from the league.

You cannot compare cycling to Football, Baseball or Basketball or Soccer. No how, no way. Those sports generate huge amounts of money from audience participation. The TDF is probably one of the only cycling evens in the world were their is a significant audience participation and most of them don't pay anything to watch.

Comparing cycling to these other sports is pure hypocracy and where lots of money flows and has huge audience support there will always be a different standard applied in favor of audience approval. It is not morally right but it is the way of the world.

The only reason cycling is held to higher standards is because of the need to attract high dollar sponsership and because of personal pride. There is not one NBA, NFL or MLB athlete who could even ride one stage of the TDF and stay with the pack. And if there was they would be using PED just to finish.

I have to say that it is the mass market sports fans who are the biggest hypocrits. Especially when they criticise cycling. They are hard on cycling because most of them view cycling as a smaller, inferior sport and they know little or nothing about it.

Buy the way, most big magizine authors don't even get to write what they want to anymore. They wirte what thier editor tells them to write to please the intendid audience.

There is not one NBA, NFL or MLB athlete who could even ride one stage of the TDF and stay with the pack. And if there was they would be using PED just to finish.


Apples and oranges.

Is there one member of the peloton who could get on a NBA court w/o looking like a complete fool? As tough as Lance is on a bike even he would tell you he'd want nothing to do with running a pattern in front of NFL linebackers.

I don't think the answer to boosting cycling is tearing down other sports. There's nothing wrong with liking football or baseball or even NASCAR if you get enjoyment from the spectating. Just like there's nothing wrong with watching people ride bikes for 3 hours on TV. I suspect I'm not the only one who watches several different sports.

Is the doping problem b/c cycling is cracking down and catching more cheats or is doping a constant that will never go away? I honestly don't know but the answer doesn't lie in looking at other sports and saying "but they do it too."


:beer:

You cannot compare cycling to Football, Baseball or Basketball or Soccer. No how, no way. Those sports generate huge amounts of money from audience participation. The TDF is probably one of the only cycling evens in the world were their is a significant audience participation and most of them don't pay anything to watch.

Comparing cycling to these other sports is pure hypocracy and where lots of money flows and has huge audience support there will always be a different standard applied in favor of audience approval. It is not morally right but it is the way of the world.

The only reason cycling is held to higher standards is because of the need to attract high dollar sponsership and because of personal pride. There is not one NBA, NFL or MLB athlete who could even ride one stage of the TDF and stay with the pack. And if there was they would be using PED just to finish.

I have to say that it is the mass market sports fans who are the biggest hypocrits. Especially when they criticise cycling. They are hard on cycling because most of them view cycling as a smaller, inferior sport and they know little or nothing about it.

Buy the way, most big magizine authors don't even get to write what they want to anymore. They wirte what thier editor tells them to write to please the intendid audience.



+1 on this post. Unless Track racing becomes the big thing in cycling, sponsorships will continue to drive revenues, and thus, cycling will always be more sensitive to potential PR nightmares than other sports.

As for hypocrisy: watch last night's home run by Barry Bonds. They were cheering, and it was at a stadium for a division rival (San Diego Padres). How many of these people look down at cycling? A lot I imagine.

these writers are dumbtards for crucifying cyclists for doping. there is another class of racers who don't even power their own vehicles.

hah: american foootball is a sport? i thought it was just a bunch of sissies dressing up in little costumes to make their muscles look bigger and because they can't take a hit unless it's from a syringe. Plus, where's the FOOT part of the game? it's not even like they play hard: ten seconds on, ten minutes off. it's not even up to them to decide what to do (and that may be a blessing: imagine a whole bunch of linebackers having a constructive tactical discussion mid-game). it's a game of chess played by the coaches, with multiple chess pieces.

Pussies.

and don't even get me started on pro-'wrestling'. what a pice of showboating that is. "Hi, I'm a wrestler, watch me b1tch slap a fellow 'entertainer' and then we'll get all loud and emotional for the cameras" Gullible audience too.

the reason why tour riders get caught for steroids and american traditional sports athletes dont is very simple and only one reason.......PLAYERS UNION.

Ignorance can never be excused. :D Yes. I can blame them.

Personally, I don't have a problem with ignorant people. Its those that refuse to learn that bother me. Worst, are those that are ignorant, but refuse to learn, and still spout off. I don't generally refer to them as ignorant though.

Personally, I don't have a problem with ignorant people. Its those that refuse to learn that bother me. Worst, are those that are ignorant, but refuse to learn, and still spout off. I don't generally refer to them as ignorant though.

Good point. But when the ignorant profess, my patience with them has ended.

Its absolutely cracking me up how little bike fans can actually concentrate on their own sports problems.

Biking doesnt have the margin for error that mega-sports do, so stop comparing yourself to them.

they would be unlikely to sanction a universal system that would require random testing of pro athletes' urine and blood. The NFL does 12,000 random tests each year.

I can only imagine how creative NFL players would be if they knew they would have to test clean before the playoffs and Super Bowl.
We need to implement this today. NBA & MLB also.


Tour officials already don't recognize Landis as the champion and are pushing the United States Anti-Doping Agency to strip Landis of the title. Bud Selig wishes he had such an option with Barry Bonds.

Bad comparison. Contador is the correct comparison here. Like Contador, Bonds can still say he never tested positive.




fwiw

Redskins' Marcus Washington: NFL Drug Testing Policy Treated Me Like a Criminal

Posted Jul 23rd 2007 10:47AM by Michael David Smith (http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/bloggers/michael-david-smith/)
Filed under: Redskins (http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/category/washington-redskins/), Washington, DC (http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/category/washington-dc/)
Almost a year ago, Redskins linebacker Marcus Washington took a random drug test, as all NFL players are required to do. No drugs were found in his urine, but the sample was diluted -- he drank a lot of water -- which the NFL treats as a suspicious attempt to skirt the rules.

That diluted urine sample caused the NFL to put Washington in Stage 1 of its substance abuse policy, and Howard Bryant of the Washington Post writes that Washington feels like that treatment ruined his season (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/21/AR2007072101176.html).

He was subjected to random testing throughout the season, pregame urine testing and -- most humiliating, friends say -- psychiatric evaluation.... [P]eople close to Washington say they watched him sink into fits of depression and anger, hurt by the rigidity of a process that treated him as if he were a criminal....

"The thing of it is once your name gets tossed into something like this, it's hard to get it back, even if you know in your heart you didn't do anything. People are going to think what they're going to think," Washington said. "No matter what you do, they'll have that in the back of their minds. I didn't want that for me."


I know, big deal, but it's not a free for all in US leagues as it's made out to be.

I feel so sorry for the poor man. And the baseball player facing an 80 game (roughly 1/2 season) ban for failing his third drug test.

I feel so sorry for the poor man. And the baseball player facing an 80 game (roughly 1/2 season) ban for failing his third drug test.

You're right, of course. The penalties are weak. But, MLB does catch a lot of players in the minor leagues. Cycling would do well to do the same. I can see giving these young guys a chance to clean up, but it should be multiple years for a 2nd positive.

You're right, of course. The penalties are weak. But, MLB does catch a lot of players in the minor leagues. Cycling would do well to do the same. I can see giving these young guys a chance to clean up, but it should be multiple years for a 2nd positive.That 80 game penalty will cost him over $1 million. What's weak about that?

That 80 game penalty will cost him over $1 million. What's weak about that?

Compared to a two year ban and one year's salary in the pro peloton for a first offense? Joking, right?

Compared to a two year ban and one year's salary in the pro peloton for a first offense? Joking, right?You're joking, right? How many cyclists make half that amount in 2 years?

You're joking, right? How many cyclists make half that amount in 2 years?

Actually I am not surprised at your approach to this. But money isn't the real issue.

However, the cyclist probably can't live nearly as well as the baseball player on his salary to start with. Then taking him out of the sport for two years puts his entire future in the sport at risk. Both because of ageing and the possibility of not being rehired when his suspension is done. Not to mention the need to keep up his conditioning to levels that would enable him to compete again.

Just because the baseball player makes more money (much more in most cases) doesn't mean that he would lose more in any but the monetary sense.

I'm not surprised at your approach either. But money is part and parcel of the "real issue." Monetary penalties are still penalties. Neifi Perez ain't Bill Gates, and there is nothing weak about this penalty, unless, and I am not suggesting this about anyone in particular, the goal goes beyond punishing and deterring doping to ruining lives.

... But money is part and parcel of the "real issue." ...

But that is because money is placed above many other, more important (IMHO) components of the situation. In the end, the baseball player will still live a more comfortable life after the penalty than the cyclist in this example.

For me, the "weak" part was because this was his 3rd penalty. That's a habitual offender who is not going to stop until he's thrown out. A 3rd positive should be way more harsh.
MLB could probably use some serious education on the issue (in both languages).

Apples and oranges.

Is there one member of the peloton who could get on a NBA court w/o looking like a complete fool? As tough as Lance is on a bike even he would tell you he'd want nothing to do with running a pattern in front of NFL linebackers.

:beer:
Is there one member of the NBA that could even FINISH the TdF (or even the Amstel Gold) within the time controls? Can you picture Shaq trying to climb (walking the bike, most likely) Alpe d'Huez? Most NBA players don't know the meaning of the word endurance.

^^^^^Probably not but they don't participate in a sport that requires that degree of aerobic endurance. Let's say an NBA player conditioned himself to the point to where he could be a competitive cyclist. Would he be a better basketball player? I doubt it. In fact he'd probably be terrible after the loss of upper-body musculature getting into pro cycling requires.

That's why I started my first post with the words "Apples and Oranges." In other words the two sports have little to nothing in common. A BB player needs enough aerobic fitness to run the court (or in Shaq's case jog it :) ). A pro cyclist needs just enough upper-body muscle bulk to steer the bike. Neither athlete could exist in the other's sport.

Doesn't seem hard.



:beer:

Is there one member of the NBA that could even FINISH the TdF (or even the Amstel Gold) within the time controls? Can you picture Shaq trying to climb (walking the bike, most likely) Alpe d'Huez? Most NBA players don't know the meaning of the word endurance.

There isnt ONE single rider in all of pro-cycling that can make an NBA, MLB or NFL roster. Just because TdF riders go for long distances doesnt make them any less specialized from other sports at the professional level. To attain the professional level in any sport you have to be HIGHLY specialized for that specific sport.

Have you ever sat court side and watched an NBA game? I have and I will tell you this, watching guys that are 6'8"+ run the floor like gazelles is truly a remarkable sight. The speed of the game is betrayed by TV, and must truly be expierenced up close to understand what type of athletes these players are. Im sure you have a tall friend...someone 6'5"+. Tell me how gangly and uncoordinated they look in everyday life...Now watch a 6'10 guy in the NBA get knocked to the ground and spring up like hes 5'5". To say NBA players dont understand endurance shows an ignorance that is generally reserved for outsiders looking in on the sport of cycling.

There isnt ONE single rider in all of pro-cycling that can make an NBA, MLB or NFL roster. Just because TdF riders go for long distances doesnt make them any less specialized from other sports at the professional level. To attain the professional level in any sport you have to be HIGHLY specialized for that specific sport.

Have you ever sat court side and watched an NBA game? I have and I will tell you this, watching guys that are 6'8"+ run the floor like gazelles is truly a remarkable sight. The speed of the game is betrayed by TV, and must truly be expierenced up close to understand what type of athletes these players are. Im sure you have a tall friend...someone 6'5"+. Tell me how gangly and uncoordinated they look in everyday life...Now watch a 6'10 guy in the NBA get knocked to the ground and spring up like hes 5'5". To say NBA players dont understand endurance shows an ignorance that is generally reserved for outsiders looking in on the sport of cycling.NBA players have many admirable qualities. They're fast, graceful, powerful, and possess phenomenal ball-handling skills. But, compared to pro cyclists, they don't have a clue about the meaning of endurance. A pro time trialist spends more time continuously at or above lactate threshold than the regulation time of an NBA game. And the NBA gets a 15 minute break at halftime. :rolleyes: And time trials are the shortest pro events in road racing. A long, one-day race like the Amstel Gold takes damn near 6 hours to complete.

As for bouncing back up after falling, cyclists "spring up" from falls that would scare (if not knock) the $h!t out of any player in the NBA. One guy in this year's TdF went over a guard rail and down an embankment, scrambled back up to the road, grabbed a spare bike, and was back in the race like nothing happened. Vino rode for days with more stitches than Frankenstein's Monster.

The poor sod who finished last in the TdF has endurance and fortitude to give away to anybody in the NBA.

^^^^^Probably not but they don't participate in a sport that requires that degree of aerobic endurance. Let's say an NBA player conditioned himself to the point to where he could be a competitive cyclist. Would he be a better basketball player? I doubt it. In fact he'd probably be terrible after the loss of upper-body musculature getting into pro cycling requires.

That's why I started my first post with the words "Apples and Oranges." In other words the two sports have little to nothing in common. A BB player needs enough aerobic fitness to run the court (or in Shaq's case jog it :) ). A pro cyclist needs just enough upper-body muscle bulk to steer the bike. Neither athlete could exist in the other's sport.

Doesn't seem hard.

:beer:I agree that neither athlete would do well at the other's sport, but sprinting requires a good bit of upper body strength to stabilize yourself and the bike when you're pumping out 1000+ watts. Certainly more than "just enough to steer the bike".

I think we need to admit this:

Cycling in general is a sport that allows the less athletically inclined to achieve a decent level of ability compared to say, basketball or baseball. For example, I think, with time, someone like say Steve Nash could probably become a CAT 2 rider (again - given the time to train). But does anyone honestly think that Floyd Landis would ever be able to develop the skills at basketball enough to compete at a level equivalent to CAT 2 in Basketball? Most likely not, and that is because there are finer motor skill involved in basketball etc.. that no matter how much you train, you just are not going to develop the skills. Golf also comes to mind.

Secondly however - I really do not think there are too many athletes within the other sports who would ever have been able to ride as a Pro. This is because those guys are so genetically gifted, that they are at a level no one (no matter how much training) can get to unless they are born with the genetic gifts.

NBA players have many admirable qualities. They're fast, graceful, powerful, and possess phenomenal ball-handling skills. But, compared to pro cyclists, they don't have a clue about the meaning of endurance. A pro time trialist spends more time continuously at or above lactate threshold than the regulation time of an NBA game. And the NBA gets a 15 minute break at halftime. :rolleyes: And time trials are the shortest pro events in road racing. A long, one-day race like the Amstel Gold takes damn near 6 hours to complete.

As for bouncing back up after falling, cyclists "spring up" from falls that would scare (if not knock) the $h!t out of any player in the NBA. One guy in this year's TdF went over a guard rail and down an embankment, scrambled back up to the road, grabbed a spare bike, and was back in the race like nothing happened. Vino rode for days with more stitches than Frankenstein's Monster.

The poor sod who finished last in the TdF has endurance and fortitude to give away to anybody in the NBA.


Ok. Apparently you have never done any sport but cycling. The point of falling was not the impact, it is the amazing physical ability they posses at giagantic sizes. Obviously endurance is of critical importance in cycling, im not disputing this. But claiming cycling as a greater sport purely based on the amount of endurance it takes is simply ignorant. Stop trying to make professional cycling better than other sports by highlighting its most difficult elements.

One other thing...using Vino and his super human effort was more than a little stupid dont you think?

I really doubt Steve Nash could be a cat 2 cyclist. Pro cycling is mostly about specific genetics. Being gifted in one athletic aspect does not mean being gifted in another. Would Barry Bonds make a good football player? How about Randy Moss in the NHL?

Is there one member of the NBA that could even FINISH the TdF (or even the Amstel Gold) within the time controls? Can you picture Shaq trying to climb (walking the bike, most likely) Alpe d'Huez? Most NBA players don't know the meaning of the word endurance.

While the endurance aspect of pro basketball has decreased over the past few decades it is still a significant factor. Try just traveling with any NBA team and then come back and say this.

Oh and one huge difference. In contact sports you do not have the luxury of staying at or below LT. If the man you are responsible for is going facter you have to go part that. So those guys recover from a level that by and large cyclists avoid.

Oh and to repeat what I've said time and agian. I've known top level athletes from at least 3 sports and coaches from even more. I've never heard any of them denigrating any other sport. I have known couch potatoes and mid level wanabees do it fairly often.

While the endurance aspect of pro basketball has decreased over the past few decades it is still a significant factor. Try just traveling with any NBA team and then come back and say this.


Yeah, less than an hour of physical activity over a few hour time period is just like riding a 100 mile bike race with the most elite professional cyclists in the world.

There isnt ONE single rider in all of pro-cycling that can make an NBA, MLB or NFL roster. Just because TdF riders go for long distances doesnt make them any less specialized from other sports at the professional level. To attain the professional level in any sport you have to be HIGHLY specialized for that specific sport.

Have you ever sat court side and watched an NBA game? I have and I will tell you this, watching guys that are 6'8"+ run the floor like gazelles is truly a remarkable sight. The speed of the game is betrayed by TV, and must truly be expierenced up close to understand what type of athletes these players are. Im sure you have a tall friend...someone 6'5"+. Tell me how gangly and uncoordinated they look in everyday life...Now watch a 6'10 guy in the NBA get knocked to the ground and spring up like hes 5'5". To say NBA players dont understand endurance shows an ignorance that is generally reserved for outsiders looking in on the sport of cycling.

You have a good point regarding the specificity of sport. And yet my argument was not so much to disparage other sports as to point out that they are not inhearantly superior. And yes I have sat down right on the floor in fact with major NBA teams. One of my past occupations was a charter bus driver for the largest local company. I drove both the Spurs and the Bucks to the local arena to play the Utah Jazz with down on the floor passes. It was cool. But it is not the players themselves that generate the excitment. It is the energy of the large crowd combined with the game.

Have you ever been to a NBA practice with no crowd. A much different and less exciting experience. Some of us just find cycling more interesting than the NBA, NFL or similar leagues.

Also, when the NBA games start going 5-6 hours non-stop without substitutions then I will respect your argument about basketball endurance. Yes, it is true all sports require endurance but I can guarantee you that a TDF stage is more difficult from an endurance point of view and requires an even higher level of conditioning than playing a basketball game.

I really doubt Steve Nash could be a cat 2 cyclist. Pro cycling is mostly about specific genetics. Being gifted in one athletic aspect does not mean being gifted in another. Would Barry Bonds make a good football player? How about Randy Moss in the NHL?

Really - CAT 2? We are not talking Pro or CAT 1. CAT 2?

I happen to think you could get to a CAT 2 with training alone, especially given the fact that Nash is already a gifted athlete. And as I stated, above CAT 2, no amount of training is going to get you there unless you are gifted genetically to handle that amount of cardio stress.

Ok. Apparently you have never done any sport but cycling. The point of falling was not the impact, it is the amazing physical ability they posses at giagantic sizes. Obviously endurance is of critical importance in cycling, im not disputing this. But claiming cycling as a greater sport purely based on the amount of endurance it takes is simply ignorant. Stop trying to make professional cycling better than other sports by highlighting its most difficult elements.

One other thing...using Vino and his super human effort was more than a little stupid dont you think?I did some martial arts when I was in college. One of the first things you learn is how to take a fall without breaking your @$$. Even plus-size martial artists such as Dolph Lundgren and Steven Segal learn it. You fell, and you didn't break your @$$? What do you want? A cookie? You're supposed to not break your @$$ when you take a fall. At least not at the speeds you can attain running and jumping.

The doping, for which Vino was justly ejected from the Tour, had nothing to do with his willingness to continue in spite of significant injuries - injuries that would have gotten any NBA player benched. His blood doping did nothing to relieve the pain of those injuries. In fact, by allowing him to ride more strongly, it probably made it worse.

I don't approve of his doping, and the Tour officials were correct in DQing him. But I do respect the guts he showed in continuing to race in spite of his injuries.

Yeah, less than an hour of physical activity over a few hour time period is just like riding a 100 mile bike race with the most elite professional cyclists in the world.And that doesn't count substitutions. Get a little winded, and they put in a sub so you can catch your breath. :rolleyes:

I think we need to admit this:

Cycling in general is a sport that allows the less athletically inclined to achieve a decent level of ability compared to say, basketball or baseball. For example, I think, with time, someone like say Steve Nash could probably become a CAT 2 rider (again - given the time to train). But does anyone honestly think that Floyd Landis would ever be able to develop the skills at basketball enough to compete at a level equivalent to CAT 2 in Basketball? Most likely not, and that is because there are finer motor skill involved in basketball etc.. that no matter how much you train, you just are not going to develop the skills. Golf also comes to mind.

Secondly however - I really do not think there are too many athletes within the other sports who would ever have been able to ride as a Pro. This is because those guys are so genetically gifted, that they are at a level no one (no matter how much training) can get to unless they are born with the genetic gifts.Cycling IS a sport where one doesn't have to be built like a freak to excel. You can teach nearly anyone to ride a bicycle. You can't teach someone how to be seven feet tall. If you're seven feet tall, and you want to be a basketball player, you can find SOMEONE who'll teach you the skills you need.

BTW, golf is NOT a sport. Golf is a good walk spoiled. :D

I think we need to admit this:

Cycling in general is a sport that allows the less athletically inclined to achieve a decent level of ability compared to say, basketball or baseball. For example, I think, with time, someone like say Steve Nash could probably become a CAT 2 rider (again - given the time to train). But does anyone honestly think that Floyd Landis would ever be able to develop the skills at basketball enough to compete at a level equivalent to CAT 2 in Basketball? Most likely not, and that is because there are finer motor skill involved in basketball etc.. that no matter how much you train, you just are not going to develop the skills. Golf also comes to mind.

Secondly however - I really do not think there are too many athletes within the other sports who would ever have been able to ride as a Pro. This is because those guys are so genetically gifted, that they are at a level no one (no matter how much training) can get to unless they are born with the genetic gifts.


VT,

You talk about the specificity of sport and then you go off defining athleticism as ball handling skills. Athleticism is a much broader term and there are various kinds of skills. And endurance is one of them. And by the way, there are thousands of men of average height who have far better basketball skills than all but the best NBA players. They just aren't tall enough to be in the league. I had a 19 year old kid at an inpatient treatment center that I worked at that was way better then most NBA players but a few of the very best. He was better by a wide margin at every skill but stuffing the ball. But he was only 5' 9".

He would have to be three times as good as Jordan to get in the NBA.

Being really tall is nearly a free pass in the NBA if you have only a little better than average ball handling skills. But because the guys are big underneath you have to be big enough to handle the contact.

I have respect for basketball. It is a great game. But the fact that there is no doping problems in basketball tells me that it is not really that difficult from either an endurance or strength point of view. Basketball is all about skills which can't be improved much by doping.

Probably the hardest part of the NBA is living with the on the road schedule. That would require some real mental endurance.

Cycling IS a sport where one doesn't have to be built like a freak to excel. You can teach nearly anyone to ride a bicycle. You can't teach someone how to be seven feet tall. If you're seven feet tall, and you want to be a basketball player, you can find SOMEONE who'll teach you the skills you need.

BTW, golf is NOT a sport. Golf is a good walk spoiled. :D

Yeah,
but you cannot teach someone to be 5'10" and 140 pounds either. Someone 7' 0" is not going to be a good bike racer, regardless of his endurance. Just way too much extra weight that does nothing to move the bike forward.

Essentially - my general contention is that endurance is something you can train to a fairly high level of ability. But you are either able to hit a curveball or you are not. It is something that cannot be trained.

Same thing with golf - it is a skill that some people have an innate ability to do well, and some just cannot, no matter how much practice, ever get to a decent level.