Bicycle Mechanics - Solvent + chain = disaster ?

Hi all

One of my more respected local bike shops recommended never using any kind of solvent (even finish line / bike specific products) on the chain on the bicycle.

The logic was that it ate away at the grease which has been baked into chain during manufacture.

Instead the solution was to use a clean cloth and pull the chain through several times to remove the worst of the grime. Then clean with a brush until all nice and shiny and relube (with a non teflon lubricant). They recommended Cross Country synthetic I think.

The information originally came from Capagnolo manual on maintenance - I'm sure I can get specific details if you need it.

Can any of the technically inclined mechanics on the forum contribute to this?

Yours confusedly
Adrian :confused:

Originally posted by AdrianB
baked into chain

I like that. Are there any chocolate chips in there too? :)

There is no "grease baked into the chain." Clean your chain. Use a citrus degreaser or use a solvent like mineral spirits, but clean your chain. Use a chain cleaning machine or a terrycloth towel or take the chain off and soak it in a jar of solvent, but clean your chain.

Then apply a light lube and wipe it off the outside of the chain -- the pins and rollers inside are all that need to be lubed; lube on the ouside will just attract gunk.

Chains wear out because grit gets inside the moving parts. You need to flush that stuff out before you re-lube. Just wiping and brushing a dirty chain will not do the job.

RichC

here's a quote from yours truly ;)


Originally posted by deliriou5
you don't necessarily need to use a solvent degreaser to clean your chain... it's a matter of personal preference really.....

in fact some people prefer detergent-based degreasers because detergents will break up and suspend dirt particles....

organic solvents on the other hand will work well at thinning out the grease and gunk and penetrating to the innards of the chain... but won't necessarily do very well at getting the grit out.

Just drop the chain in a bath of mineral turps or liquid de-greaser. Repeat if necessary. Wipe dry and give a coating of dry lube. Do the same for the cassette while your at it.

CHEERS.

Mark

Hmm there is actually some sort of oil-stuff on the chain when you buy it. However as I remember it's just for packaging to keep the chain nice when you unpack it and it's definitly not real lube, as in chain lube.

So don't you worry about washing your chain with solvents.

Your LBS adheres to the catechism that sufficiently greasy chains ward off dirt and trap it in the grease so it can't penetrate into the area under the rollers. Chain wear occurs when rollers and pins wear away, the hole in the rollers enlarging and the pins grinding away. In this mantra, solubilizing the grease allows grittty stuff to penetrate the roller/pin space and thus accelerate wear.
The initial chain lube is pretty sticky stuff meant to preserve the chain more than lube it, though it does do so. It is sticky enough that it accumulates a thick layer of road debris in short order and is hard to clean off so most advise
removal of it and replacement with bicycle chain lube. It is a dirty job to clean a chain with a brush "til it is shiny". If you have the time and inclination, go at it. Many of us prefer the speed and efficiency of clamp on chain cleaners and citrus based degreasers and believe that dirt will penetrate no matter what you do. Steve

The "oil" on a new chain is there to stop the metal from oxidising (or rusting). It is sticky and attracts dirt and is next to useless as a lubricant. A new chain should always be cleaned first before putting on the bike. No chain I have seen new has grease on it, baked there or otherwise. I'd change your LBS.

I've just read an article from an expert in the lubrication industry and an Audax rider. He was discussing chain lubes. His choice -- an SAE 5W-50 motor oil (eg Mobil 1) that is sythetic and has a low viscosity rating. A telling part of his article was that the most cost-efficient approach to formulate a commercial lubricant is to look at the products already on the product-line and see if one requires only minor modification. This applies often to small-volume specialised niche market product suppliers.

I'm not particularly fussed about using special bike lubes -- I use Castrol GTX on the chain, and the wear rates are no different from my previous experience with bike-specific lubricants.

FWIW

R

I went to the Campagnolo site, and from their own technical information viewable at:

http://www.campagnolo.com/pdf/140-cat9V-2000.pdf


They say:


MAINTENANCE: Avoid using solvents. Clean chain regularly with a dry and clean cloth; lubricate with chain oil for bicycles.
ATTENTION: Avoid removing chain, if not for final replacement with a new one.


Shimano says to use a neutral detergent and not to use alkali-based or acid based detergents such as rust cleaners...

http://bike.shimano.com/product_images/CN/si_images/CN_7701_SI.pdf

I'm not so sure the idea against using solvents is more environmental than mechanical.

Removal of the chain inevitably will weaken the link where the rivet pops in/out because it flares ever so slightly the holes in the side plates. Of course, with a Powerlink or similar, that problem is not so important.

Alkali and acid based detergents are pretty dangerous and are used, I think, by automotive mechanics to clean parts. Again, more likely to cover backsides environmentally and injury-wise rather than for any mechanical reason. But I might be wrong in the absence of policy information by the two companies on use of solvents.

The more I learn the less I know. Now I don't know what to do????!!!!

Would automotive brake cleaner be considered a solvent? and is it a bad idea for me to use this on my chain?? I figured it gets grease and dirt off of car stuff good, and evaporates fast, so why wouldn't it work on a bike chain. Then after its dry, I spray it down with pedros dry lube stuff. Good idea/Bad idea??

Lately I have been using a lubricant called "Kroil". I have an aerosol can and my usual procedure is to put my bike on my stand, hold an old towel under the chain and liberally spray a section of links. The towel catches all the "stuff". I do this to the whole chain, section by section, and then hold the towel around the chain and crank. This removes quite a bit of black "gunk". I then use the Kroil again to lubricate and wipe the chain again with the towel. This seem to clean and lubricate it. I'll see how this works until my aerosol can runs out.

I wouldn't use KROIL, not for lubrication purposes.
KROIL is a penetrating oil.
Kroil is excellent for breaking out frozen stems, etc.
but not as a Lube.

Marty

Now, when I think back to my days of youth, and how I used to use gasoline to clean any greasy parts. Those were the good old days.

John Forester, in his book Effective Cycling (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0262560704/qid=1061657022/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/103-2921693-4077457?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) recommend a mix of white gas and oil. The mix supposedly penetrates better than oil alone. The white gas quickly evaporates and leaves the oil behind. I'll tell you how it works in 3000 miles.

Brake cleaner is not a lubricant, and neither is Kroil. You'd be better off using bacon grease.

This is one of those topics that none of use will ever come to a common ground on. Based on my years as a mechanic I'll give you my opinions. Remember these are opinions only.

1. Auto brake cleaner will work extremely well at cleaning the chain. It evaporates very quickly.

2. Clean your chain when you can no longer read/or see the lettering on it.

3. Never remove your chain to clean it.

4. Lubricate when it no longer leaver a 'shiny-ness' on your fingers when rubbed.

5. Lubricate sparingly. Too much lube gets everywhere. Includung the braking surfaces of your rims.

6. Use whatever you want to lub it as long as its a lubricant. No WD-40, no 3-in-1 oil. I only ride in dry conditions so I use a lub for that purpose. But in the big picture it probably doesnt matter.

Simple Green in one of those snap-on brush cleaners works pretty well for me.

Is there maybe a difference between "solvent" and "degreaser"? "Solvent" (to me) implies "eating away"...

solvent just means a medium in which something dissolves. in this case solvent dissolves the gunky grease. when people say solvent they usually mean "organic solvent".... a nonpolar liquid that will dissolve other nonpolar stuff.

actually degreaser has a solvent too... water. but degreaser works by essentially making greasy things more soluble in water.

ultimately, the purpose of the solvent is to "carry away" the dirt. but as i said, both organic solvents and detergent-based degreasers exploit this property... just in different ways.

The Campy advice sounds pretty bizarre to me. Thanks anyway, I'll keep doing what I've been doing.

Comments:
Rowan, I've never tried synthetic, but used regular motor oil once. It was a gunk magnet. Everything that got close to my chain stuck.

JoeTown, the Forester formula also calls for paraffin, that's what the white gas is for... to dissolve the paraffin (instead of using heat and melting it). The gas evaporates, leaving the paraffin/oil mixture.

Miamijim, what's the harm in removing your chain to clean it if you've got an SRAM, or have installed a power-link (or whatever they're called)?

Hi

I used to use one of the so called dry lubricants on our road tandem. I had innumerable probelms and more so during the winter. I realized it was due to the inherant stiffness or hardness of the wax in the dry lube. I then changed to a lube made by Topgear called "Chain Creep" ( I think Topgear is an South AFrican based company) This stuff work "anti cappillary" and enters into the tiniest tolerance delivering the lube where it needs to go. The result is that evrything is smoother, my drivetrain less noisy and I am smiling. I bought a Park chain cleaner/washer, it fits on the cain and with little brushes and a cleaner I clean and service my chain on the bike. I do this approximately every 300 to 400 km. Every fourth wash I remove the chain and wash it in white spirits and afterwards in hot water with a normal dishwashing liquid soap with lemon added. This removes the last of the gunk and fattiness left by the white spirits (read paraffin). I leave the chain to dry overnight, refit by using an new Shimano pin and relubricate the chain with Chain Creep.

Big H

In all the years I have worked on bikes and the hundreds of chains I have cleaned and serviced, and the hundreds more I have sold I have never heard of leaving the factory grease on and just wiping off what accumulates on it. Those who live in central Tx. can attest if you heed the Campy advice you might as well zip tie your chain to your stay with sandpaper and ride that way.
Citrus degreaser will not hurt a chain in any way nor will bike chain lubes. If so you have no buisness riding with those products.

Miamijim, what's the harm in removing your chain to clean it if you've got an SRAM, or have installed a power-link (or whatever they're called)?

Every time a chain is dis-assembled the risk of damaging a link is there. Regardless of the mechanisn used to secure the chain, 'power link' (I just love the marketing behind that term), a pin, or master link (power link just sounds tougher doesnt it). There is minimal harm removing a chain with a 'powerlink' but I have seen those fail. Eventually the removable link can get 'loose' and come off with minimal effort.

KISS...Keep It Simple Stupid....when it gets dirty clean it...when you clean it lube it....when it gets dry lube it....when it gets noisy lube it.

Originally posted by miamijim
Every time a chain is dis-assembled the risk of damaging a link is there. Regardless of the mechanisn used to secure the chain, 'power link' (I just love the marketing behind that term), a pin, or master link (power link just sounds tougher doesnt it). There is minimal harm removing a chain with a 'powerlink' but I have seen those fail. Eventually the removable link can get 'loose' and come off with minimal effort.


I've been using Power Link chains for a fair few chains and providing you replace the Power Link when you replace the chain (and you don't remove the chain after every ride) then your chain will certainly wear out before the link does. If you keep reusing a link chain after chain then yes it might wear out, and yes they can fail if not joined properly.

Whilst I wouldn't advocate removing a chain for every clean (I don't think it needs that thoroughness - your mileage may vary) I wouldn't worry about opening a Power Link (SRAM's trademark)every so often. I'm sure the same goes for other Master Link (generic term) chains but don't have personal experience of these to be certain.


Originally posted by miamijim

KISS...Keep It Simple Stupid....when it gets dirty clean it...when you clean it lube it....when it gets dry lube it....when it gets noisy lube it.

Sound advice :)

RoadBuzz and Rowan, I've been thinking of trying something cheaper than bike chain lube. The sythetic 5W-50 makes sense to me...nice and lightweight/runny for getting into the pin area yet good extreme pressure characteristics. I had initially thought of 80W-90 differential oil, but that is pretty damn thick and would probably need to sit at least overnight to 'run' inside the pin area.

Regarding the 'crap magnet' qualities of these auto oils...yes, I'm concerned. What if I give the chain a really good wipe with a cloth when I'm done...afterall, the only oil 'doing' anything is where the cloth can't reach anyhow....does it even matter if the outside layer picks up some extra crud??....or will capilliary action carry this crud inside the chain pin eventually??

I dunno, I'm just a little tired of paying $AUS15 for an itsy bitsy 2OZ (120ml) bottle of Finnishline.

Using a light lubricant as a degreaser- Will NOT hurt your chain

Diesel oil is probably the best- recommended by guys who've worked the Giro and stuff like that.

If you use a lubricant that doesn't play well with others, ie. Pro-Link, wash your chain with detergent (Dawn) and HOT water and rinse with HOT water after you've degreased it with the Diesel Oil. Doing that gets a little more junk out too.
I normally take the chain off and give it two or three baths using progressively cleaner oil, while also degreasing and washing the bike. If I'm doing "touch-up" or in a hurry, I just use a parts brush with diesel on it to wet down the chaind on the bike and wipe it off.
And, Yes, I recycle my diesel by pouring the dirty oil in a glass jar and letting the junk settle to the botom and pouring the good stuff into a container to re-use.
I've found Pro-Link (1st choice) and Finish Line ( 2nd choice) to be my favorite lubes of all the dozens I've tried over the years.

Ride Greased- not!
Pat

Yes, I was thinking of using diesel to clean the chain too. Tho I didn't think about diesel not being compatible with some special bicycle chain lubes...I aint got time/energy to do the extra wash with detergent/hot water.

Maybe the mechanics at the Giro figure they have to clean everything daily anyway, so they use a more basic and traditional oil type lube...if it picks up a little more crap in the space of 1 day (180kms), what difference does it make to them?

I'd like one of those little electric pressure washers with a detergent bottle feeding in...set it up near the garage door and clean the whole chain/cassette/derailleur in seconds when I get back from a ride. :beer: