Vehicular Cycling (VC) - Straw man arguments

This is what we have here:
http://waba.org/bikingforkids/

The waba program appears very different from HBLs BikeEd. Waba appears to include as much pedestrian safety as bike safety. Waba appears to be done on the playground (does it even include VC training)? HBLs BikeEd is on road VC training for the 4th graders that know how to ride bikes; and playground learning to ride a bike for the kids that have never ridden a bicycle.

So what is HBL doing right, that Waba has not been able to accomplish?

I also take it that John did not help with your program!

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/2007-06-27-maui-cycling-deaths_N.htm
Exactly, not to mention the other tourist on ill fitting rental bikes riding for the first time in 20 years.

Very few of the cyclist killed here are regular cyclist riding VC.

Would it also be true that very few of the cyclists "here," be it Hawaii or anywhere else are so called "regular cyclist riding VC"? So naturally these VC-types are less likely to show up in any measurement of cycling events.

...I 'm still wondering how in the heck agreement with a point of view (ala Larry calling my recent threads about VC and mellow route choice containing truisms about vehicular cycling) can be construed as a 'straw man'

more like 'goring the sacred cow'

when the going gets tough, the VC cry "straw man' when the sacred cow gets it.

The waba program appears very different from HBLs BikeEd. Waba appears to include as much pedestrian safety as bike safety. Waba appears to be done on the playground (does it even include VC training)? HBLs BikeEd is on road VC training for the 4th graders that know how to ride bikes; and playground learning to ride a bike for the kids that have never ridden a bicycle.

The short answer is I have not been able to audit the training yet so I do not know the details but they sound near identical to me.


So what is HBL doing right, that Waba has not been able to accomplish?

I also take it that John did not help with your program!
Um… What are you doing right or better then us? Your cyclists’ fatality rate is way higher then ours and your pedestrian fatality rate is the second worst in the nation and again way higher then ours.

The short answer is I have not been able to audit the training yet so I do not know the details but they sound near identical to me.


Um… What are you doing right or better then us? Your cyclists’ fatality rate is way higher then ours and your pedestrian fatality rate is the second worst in the nation and again way higher then ours.

This is an incredibly odd assertion. Baltimore is a very different environment from Hawaii, and I suspect both of your organizations have a somewhat limited immediate impact upon overall traffic fatality rates. Let's look at this another way. Baltimore's homicide rate is astronomically higher that that of Des Moines. Is that because Des Moines has more competent advocacy regarding criminal justice issues?

Like full body armour and bikes with the brakes 50% locked on to keep moron tourists from crashing off the side of Haleakala?
http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/2007-06-27-maui-cycling-deaths_N.htm
Exactly, not to mention the other tourist on ill fitting rental bikes riding for the first time in 20 years.

The short answer is I have not been able to audit the training yet so I do not know the details but they sound near identical to me.

Um… What are you doing right or better then us? Your cyclists’ fatality rate is way higher then ours and your pedestrian fatality rate is the second worst in the nation and again way higher then ours.Amazing that you think a bike rodeo on a basketball court is near identical to teaching VC on the road.

You really are determined to ignore the impact of several tourist killing themselves, on a ride like this http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/2007-06-27-maui-cycling-deaths_N.htm, has on a pretty small death rate for the cyclist here. All those tourist are not even included in the total cyclist count for Hawaii, which skews the numbers even more.

Why are you so fixated on pedestrians in a cycling forum? But if you must know, just like Florida, lots of old folks.
I bet Hawaii even has more shark bites then Baltimore. But on the other hand, Baltimore has way more lightning deaths.

it's those darn tourists mucking things up for the islanders. :roflmao:

locals who, if attending grade school on Oahu at least, all respect bicyclists :roflmao: because they had bike training in 4th grade.

This is an incredibly odd assertion. Baltimore is a very different environment from Hawaii, and I suspect both of your organizations have a somewhat limited immediate impact upon overall traffic fatality rates. Let's look at this another way. Baltimore's homicide rate is astronomically higher that that of Des Moines. Is that because Des Moines has more competent advocacy regarding criminal justice issues?
First off I am comparing states not cities. But with all things if a place ranks in the top worst people start looking around at similar places that are better and start to identify what works and what is not working.

Similarly Baltimore is very concerned about its high homicide rate and what we have found from looking elsewhere the answer does not lie solely in the criminal justice system (which has been its focus in the past.)

But anyway my real question is what is behind the assertion the Hawaii has a better bike ed program then Maryland? I have access to very little detailed information about Hawaii but what I do have it does not look so good.

locals who, if attending grade school on Oahu at least, all respect bicyclists :roflmao: because they had bike training in 4th grade.I hear a bunch of cyclist here complaining about young drivers. I have not had similar problems with young drivers here, so maybe something is working for us here by way of the HBL BikeEd.

But anyway my real question is what is behind the assertion the Hawaii has a better bike ed program then Maryland? I have access to very little detailed information about Hawaii but what I do have it does not look so good.
OK, let's try again:

Hawaii - on road VC training
http://www.honolulu.gov/dts/bikeed.htm

Waba - on playground bike rodeo - no roads and no apparent VC training
http://waba.org/bikingforkids/

Are you still hung up on tourist killing themselves?

First off I am comparing states not cities. Really, for comparing states, you seemed to say "Baltimore" quite often. Other than your last post, I must have missed all those times you said Maryland.

Amazing that you think a bike rodeo on a basketball court is near identical to teaching VC on the road.

You really are determined to ignore the impact of several tourist killing themselves, on a ride like this http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/2007-06-27-maui-cycling-deaths_N.htm, has on a pretty small death rate for the cyclist here. All those tourist are not even included in the total cyclist count for Hawaii, which skews the numbers even more.

Why are you so fixated on pedestrians in a cycling forum? But if you must know, just like Florida, lots of old folks.
I bet Hawaii even has more shark bites then Baltimore. But on the other hand, Baltimore has way more lightning deaths.
It is amazing that you think you know all about a program that you know nothing about. The assertion that all we have is a bike rodeo has not been confirmed and I have reasons to believe that it is more then that.

I am equally amazed that you are not aware that cycling deaths that do not involve a car are not reported in the FARS system. So the article you mentioned has no bearing on the stats that I have access to.

I am not fixated on pedestrian deaths but I do however find them indicative of the lack of driver awareness around vulnerable road users and generally has a high correlation with the severity of cycling injuries (a stat that I am interested but I do not have access to.)

All I am asking is what proof do you have that you have a better biking program? Is it simply the assertion that John Forester is better then Tool Design?

OK, let's try again:

Hawaii - on road VC training
http://www.honolulu.gov/dts/bikeed.htm

Waba - on playground bike rodeo - no roads and no apparent VC training
http://waba.org/bikingforkids/

Are you still hung up on tourist killing themselves?

WABA does bike rodeos as separate events but that is not the training as far as I know. Is that the source of confusion?

You do not even know what your Waba program provides, yet you assert that it is near identical to HBL BikeEd.

Check out your pics from the site you posted:
http://waba.org/bikingforkids/,
does that look like on road VC training?

Really, for comparing states, you seemed to say "Baltimore" quite often. Other than your last post, I must have missed all those times you said Maryland.

My bad on that one, sorry.

Some more info on your program:

http://waba.org/bikingforkids/educators.php

“WABA's Pedestrian and Bicycle Safety Education Program is divided into two sections, a pedestrian safety program for kindergarten through second grade students and a bicycle safety program for third through fifth grade students. Both the pedestrian section and the bicycle section contain a set of four core lessons, which teach skills that are essential to developing a basic understanding of pedestrian and bicycle safety. If the teachers have time, there are enrichment exercises offering additional pedestrian and bicycle safety knowledge and skills. The pedestrian lessons are designed to be taught indoors or outdoors by classroom teachers through the Health Education Curriculum, in physical education class, or in another community setting. Many of the bicycle program lessons are intended to be taught outdoors by physical education teachers through the Physical Education Curriculum or at community workshops, though some can be done in the classroom. In a few schools where indoor facilities are scarce and weather inclement, we've held the on-bike lessons in the hallway! There are few rules here- with the permission of the school principal, let your creativity and determination to make kids safer bikers and walkers take you where it will!”

You do not even know what your Waba program provides, yet you assert that it is near identical to HBL BikeEd.

Check out your pics from the site you posted:
http://waba.org/bikingforkids/,
does that look like on road VC training?
From info on the web sites they seem close but info on both sides is sorely lacking. So your whole proof that you have a better bike ed program is because of a picture???

Continuing:

http://waba.org/bikingforkids/leaders.php

"What is a Bike Rodeo? Can we do it ourselves?

Bike Rodeo is the term we use for a hands-on exercise using bikes and an obstacle course to teach kids the skills they need to safely stop and control their bikes. It can mean the bike handling lesson in the Pedestrian and Bicycle Safety Program, or a stand-alone event held when kids are not in school by a variety of organizations such as fire departments, police, and non-profits dedicated to children’s safety or bicycle safety. They can be run without the Program Trailer, using kids’ own bikes, or the trailer can be scheduled for a rodeo when kids are not in school. Using the information supplied here, you can create a rodeo yourself."

Many of the bicycle program lessons are ... taught outdoors ... though some can be done in the classroom.
This does not rule out VC training.

Continuing:

http://waba.org/bikingforkids/leaders.php

"What is a Bike Rodeo? Can we do it ourselves?

http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=5016451&postcount=63

From info on the web sites they seem close but info on both sides is sorely lacking. So your whole proof that you have a better bike ed program is because of a picture???There is nothing that indicates Waba does any on road VC training. Very different programs in my book.

But, if you are happy with your program, then stop asking John how it is possible to do one. You complain in one post that such education cannot be done, then you claim how wonderful your program is.

http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=5016451&postcount=63Yes, I read your post and looked at all your links. All the links and pics indicate that bike rodeos are the sum total of the on bike Waba training. Bike Rodeo = "It can mean the bike handling lesson in the Pedestrian and Bicycle Safety Program"

I await some link that shows the contrary.

Continuing:

http://waba.org/bikingforkids/leaders.php

"What is a Bike Rodeo? Can we do it ourselves?

Let me tell you what I do know. If I want to hold a bike rodeo WABA will send me a trailer and program materials. If I want to do the program I have to meet qualifications similar to what is listed on your web page, go down to DC to get training (I forgot how long) and then I am qualified to teach the program in schools. So basically the rodeo is different then the school program.

Still no indication of on road VC training.

There is nothing that indicates Waba does any on road VC training. Very different programs in my book.

But, if you are happy with your program, then stop asking John how it is possible to do one. You complain in one post that such education cannot be done, then you claim how wonderful your program is.
Let me break it down for you. In general terms there is bike Ed junk that the board of Ed puts out and there is specialty training that yourself and possibly WABA (the link I need is currently broken.) While the specialty training has great promise the board of Ed and principles of schools are major obstacles in getting this program to a level that is needed to be effective.

Effective is the key word here, John asserts that his training is effective even more effective then engineering , but it cannot be as effective as it needs to be unless the board of ed barriers are broken down.

Part 2 of this is your claim how great your program is. What I would like to know what percentage of school age kids are you reaching and how effective has the program been in reducing bike crashes? This is info you apparently do not have or do not care to look at, this is info I need to show that you are better then us and I can use this to put more pressure on the state. And sorry going to the state gov and saying Hawaii has a picture of kids riding their bike in the street and we don't is not going to get me too far.

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-30/NCSA/TSF2005/810617.pdf

Is this the data you are using, 4 cyclist deaths in Hawaii in 2005 (at least 2 of which were tourist, one a head on with a car on Haleakala and if I remember the year correctly, another was a tourist riding a Honolulu triathlon when a driver ran through course barriers hitting the cyclist) compared to 7 cyclist deaths for Maryland.

In this year, Hawaii is tied for # 11 per capita; if you take out the tourist deaths (since tourist are not part of the per capita count) Hawaii ranks # 36.

I guess you intended for your argument of death rates as an example of a straw man argument.

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-30/NCSA/TSF2005/810617.pdf

Is this the data you are using, 4 cyclist deaths in Hawaii in 2005 (at least 2 of which were tourist, one a head on with a car on Haleakala and if I remember the year correctly, another was a tourist riding a Honolulu triathlon when a driver ran through course barriers hitting the cyclist) compared to 7 cyclist deaths for Maryland.

In this year, Hawaii is tied for # 11 per capita; if you take out the tourist deaths (since tourist are not part of the per capita count) Hawaii ranks # 36.

I guess you intended for your argument of death rates as an example of a straw man argument.

I will repeat What I would like to know what percentage of school age kids are you reaching [with your program] and how effective has the program been in reducing bike crashes?

Failing to answer this is a straw man argument.

I got the data from a different link but at this point it is irrelevant.

Part 2 of this is your claim how great your program is. What I would like to know what percentage of school age kids are you reaching and how effective has the program been in reducing bike crashes? This is info you apparently do not have or do not care to look at, this is info I need to show that you are better then us and I can use this to put more pressure on the state. And sorry going to the state gov and saying Hawaii has a picture of kids riding their bike in the street and we don't is not going to get me too far.HBL will be happy to help you with this. Get the data you need from the source. Although, we all know how hard good data on bike crashes can be, with many accidents going unreported. Plus the accident data would need to be specific about age for both the cyclist and motorist to determine the BikeEd impact for young cyclist and as those cyclist then become motorist.

As I noted before, I have never had a problem with a young driver of the age that would have attended a HBL BikeEd course. I even had a case of a motorist who routinely passed me close. I noted on occasion, that he dropped off his daughter at the local elementary school. A week after the BikeEd class was held at the school, he again passed me close with his daughter in the car. She must have said something to Dad, because that was the last time he passed me close since 2002.

3442 Waialae Ave. #1
Honolulu, HI 96816
(808) 735-5756
bicycle@hbl.org
Kristi@hbl.org

I will repeat What I would like to know what percentage of school age kids are you reaching [with your program] and how effective has the program been in reducing bike crashes?

Failing to answer this is a straw man argument.

Give me a break to type it out as our post are crossing in cyberspace.

I got the data from a different link but at this point it is irrelevant.

Irrelevant, as in I found more recent data, which I had the decency to link to, that refutes your claims.

Give me a break to type it out as our post are crossing in cyberspace.
Once again I need to apologize, sorry.

The link to my data: http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/finalreport.cfm?title=States&stateid=0&year=2005&title2=Crashes_and_All_Victims
Table: Persons Killed, by State and Person Type

Now can I throw out tourist killed in my stats as well, as Ocean City is overrepresented in our bike crash stats?

Now can I throw out tourist killed in my stats as well, as Ocean City is overrepresented in our bike crash stats?

Of course you can, how else will the data be normalized when compared across states by population.

But realize that WORCESTER county had zero cyclist deaths for 2005.

We are actually looking at the same data, just different tables.

The HBL folks are good people and hopefully they can give you some good data and good ideas.
Also, if you see anything that can be improved with the HBL training, please PM with your ideas. I really want to see the training repeated and expanded for the 6th graders, to make sure it sticks.

I’m not involved with Worchester County, just hear things from time to time. But bike/ped safety in tourist areas is different then non tourist areas. It would be interesting if 2005 was the year they instigated the safe driver awards program. They basically had a little basket of goodies (coupons & samples) to give to drivers exhibiting safe and courteous behavior, it was supposed to have been very successful but they ran into legal procedure problems on what to do if they stopped someone for good driving and they had drugs in the car.

FWIW this is the best bike safety pamphlet for kids that I have run across:
http://www.activelivingresources.org/assets/parents_pamphlet.pdf
Order info: http://www.activelivingresources.org/links4.php

Most likely I will be in touch with HBL when the Baltimore reviews its safety programs.