I don't, I think it's reality. Lot's of riders are doping now and they are not dying, why would they start to die if they had the best that modern science had to offer?

Right now, an athlete cannot have a hemocrit level above 50, or else they are considered to have doped under the UCI rules. This helps to keep the EPO use down (or at least keep the periods in which they exceed 50 down to a minimum). If you get rid of those safeguards, you will have riders start to increase their hemocrit levels beyond 50 during the races/tours. So then you have a rider with for example a hemocrit level of 55 during one race. He loses. So he decides to increase it to 60.

I hope I do not need to lead you to the inevitable point where some brazen athlete decides to push it beyond what he should have, and will kill himself by turning his blood into oatmeal.

I don't, I think it's reality. Lot's of riders are doping now and they are not dying, why would they start to die if they had the best that modern science had to offer?

Also - there are calls now for an investigation into the mysterious death of Ryan Cox (Barloworld rider). Some claim his death can be linked to doping.

If it is allowed then it won't be the riders doing it, it will be done by Doctors for them, in the open. We need to end the farce and bring it out in the open. Science wins.

If it is allowed then it won't be the riders doing it, it will be done by Doctors for them, in the open. We need to end the farce and bring it out in the open. Science wins.


If they are willing to cheat now, why would they be open and honest about their doping levels to the public?

If it is allowed then it won't be the riders doing it, it will be done by Doctors for them, in the open. We need to end the farce and bring it out in the open. Science wins.

And the riders still lose. As does the true ethic of sport.

I'm sorry but I'm so tired of this "social strata" argument. While it's true many euro cyclists are from that background, I think it has little to do with why they dope.

I have two words for you:

Tyler Hamilton

Er, I think you missed the point. I was responding to the question of whether a relative unknown being caught doing along with several of the "big guns" was an anomally. There was the implication that the lesser lights have less incentive to break the rules than do the stars. I would never argue that "lower social strata" equals "more willing to dope," but by the same token it does not equal "less willing to dope," either.

The point is that the pressures to perform and reap the financial rewards that can drive a racer to cross the line apply up and down the pecking order of cycling. Some cheat, some don't, and the percentages wax and wane with the times. The same is true in many other endeavors, sporting and non-sporting alike. It never has been the case, and it never will be the case, that either the big fish or the little fish have a corner on the market for susceptability to take dope, or cook the books, or take a little on the side, or what have you. The urge to have just that little bit more - of whatever - will always be a powerful temptation to the rich and powerful, the down-and-out, and all types in between.


Wow - do you realize that the first death of a major rider is going to be the end of the sport? Are you that naive.

Been there, done that. Tom Simpson, 1967 TdF, Mont Ventoux. The amphetimines he had on board allowed him to literally ride himself to death, although technically it was sun stroke. Everyone was shocked and appalled. The pro calendar continued.

Pro bike racing will survive even a mid-race doping death. It will be badly hurt, and its popularity will drop, but it will survive, for better or worse.

Without the controls, you will have riders trying to above the 50 hemocrit level on an regular basis. And, if you cannot win at 50, why not push it to 60 hemocrit level?

Hey, it was good enough for Bjarne "Mr. 60%" Riis. :p (And that his nickname then.)

And whoever said racers do die in their sleep from EPO is correct. A higher percentage of oxygen-carrying cells in your blood means a lower percentage of water, which means your blood gets thicker. And thicker. And thicker. Combine that with resting pulse rates of the super-fit that are more like those of coma patients than us regular folk, and you have to get up in the middle of the night and walk around to make sure your ultra-thick blood doesn't stop flowing because the low pulse rate can't generate the needed blood pressure to circulate the crud. It's why a surprising number of Dutch uber-amateurs and neo-pros died of heart attacks in their sleep in the early to mid 1990's. And no, I am not making this up.

[QUOTE=gmason;5011644]MLB apparently is also. I think I recently saw a piece which pointed out that a player was caught for the third time abusing drugs. He will be given a whole 80 game suspension. Wow, they sure are going after the abusers big time. :([/

I wonder if Barry Bonds is on the Operation Puerto list :roflmao:

No drugs for the same reason there are no recumbents, weight limits on bikes, and maximum teams sizes, etc etc. It is not a fair contest of atheletic ability unless there is a level playing field. Even if drugs were allowed some could afford and tolerate the latest super drug and some could not. At that point it is a contest of money and drug tolerance, not of atheletic ability.

Soon (if they aren't already) they will be injecting stem cells into muscle groups for steroid free, undetectable muscle enhancement, they are testing it in animals now, for people with MS but it will help athletes as well.

Also they have genetically produced mice with PPAR-delta-enhancing genes, the same protein alteration can likely be done in humans at a genetic level, it results in significant strength and endurance increases.

Doping will end soon in biking (and other sports), when these techniques and other similar ones replace chemicals.

(a) Penalties have never been punitive enough as a true deterrent. Even the current 2-years is a sham. It should be 7 years minimum, enough to make everyone but the youngest riders give up the prime of their careers if caught.

The reason riders continue to dope is because they think they can beat the testers. The penalities are meaningless because the risk of getting caught is so small. You have to be stupid (Moreni, Mayo), desperate (Vino), really unlucky (Kasheskin), or actually caught in the act (Festina) to get busted.

The targeted testing used by WADA and the UCI is a good start by them to catch cheats IMO and shows they are finally getting serious. About bloody time too.

Kids watch these dopers and think it is OK to do.

I work with teens; they don't think about long term consequences and can be easily influenced by professional athletes.

In my opinion, this is reason enough to continue testing. Even if it will not root out everyone. It keeps the negative consequences of doping up front, in the media, and therefore sends a powerful message to youthful admirers.

Kids watch these dopers and think it is OK to do.

I work with teens; they don't think about long term consequences and can be easily influenced by professional athletes.

In my opinion, this is reason enough to continue testing. Even if it will not root out everyone. It keeps the negative consequences of doping up front, in the media, and therefore sends a powerful message to youthful admirers.

+1, best argument yet to keep the ban on dopers. As a dad of 2 teens, one of whom is an avid MTBr, I must agree 100% with rodrigaj.
Does anyone here remember Big John Metuzak (sp) a lineman for the Oakland Raiders? I used to enjoy watching him tear into an opposing lineman, he was one of my favorites. He was a big steroid user back in the 80s. After he contracted cancer, he did several appearances trying to expose the dangers of drugs used to enhance performance. I believe he passed away. He was an example of "it can't happen to me/nothing will go wrong" mentality, but it did.
IMHO There's no room for drugs, dopers, whatever, in any sport.

Have a "NO DRUG TEST TOUR RACE" it would be the most watched race of the year.
A bunch of hopped up riders holding speeds of 45 mph, racers falling off their bikes having heat attacks, it would be great .

Not funny. Not even cute.

Have a "NO DRUG TEST TOUR RACE" it would be the mostly watched race of the year.
A bunch of hopped up riders holding speeds of 45 mph, racers falling off their bikes having heat attacks, it would be great .

What would be the most watched then?

I agree with the original post


if everything is legal
there are no rules to break

I agree with the original post


if everything is legal
there are no rules to break

Pretty good definition of anarchy.

well the tour would not lose the general respectful rules of the race, it would just consist of a bunch of crazy juicedup riders-who didn't respect themselves.



cool mellow guys like BigGeorge would probably become a rare appearance in the tour

Personally I think the higher speeds and stamina from doping makes the racing more boring. A sprint on a +2000meter mountaintop finish? Give me a break. It's no fun if the riders find the race to be so easy... I might as well watch local crits instead. Ruins the historical element of the difficulty of the classic ('classics' and stage races) bike races. What's so special about a TDF if it's like the riders use motorcycles.

The thing is that there is no reputation to protect to begin with. The tour is already a bunch of performance enhanced riders, some who got caught, others who didn't.

In light of Disco pulling plug, and T-Mobile considering doing the same, my one thought is:

If it's because of doping, and biological engineering and biochemistry, then why don't the pharmaceutical giants take over title sponsorship? Amgen already sponsors the tour of Cali after all. Team Abbott! Eli Lilly! Pfitzer...

Just a thought. I mean, what better showcase of their products can they find than our ubermensch in the saddles?

I guess I should add that Amgen produces two drugs that are EPO's. Aranesp, and Epogen.