Road Cycling - The Genetic Question

Could someone become a tdf winner if they were only average as far as genetics speak and are not endurance born freaks? If they have the drive and the will and train since their late teen years intensely everyday in a structured plan and when they move off to college, they train in the mountains and continue to suffer so that one day they might obtain that unobtainable goal, could they even though the only genetic advantage is 50 percent larger than average lungs. Even though they have to work harder than everyone else to make the same improvements do you think they could do it if they wanted it enough?

Hypothetically speaking that is...

Now thats horse s**t right there. The only rule to winning is if you doubt yourself, you have lost! I'm willing to bet half the riders in the TdF are normal people away from a bike, i mean they are athletes but not "Geneticly" different from you or me. They have been doing it longer, trying harder and being sponsored but thats the only diffrence. Give me 3 years of nothing but training and I'll go to the TdF, i may not win, but I'll be there :) I think that anyone can do what they put their mind too thats my opinoin :)

-Ross

Thanx :beer:

Originally posted by spazegun2213
Now thats horse s**t right there. The only rule to winning is if you doubt yourself, you have lost! I'm willing to bet half the riders in the TdF are normal people away from a bike, i mean they are athletes but not "Geneticly" different from you or me. They have been doing it longer, trying harder and being sponsored but thats the only diffrence. Give me 3 years of nothing but training and I'll go to the TdF, i may not win, but I'll be there :) I think that anyone can do what they put their mind too thats my opinoin :)

-Ross

Possibly...and then potentially NOT

You have to remember how competitive the pro peloton really is

If you check out how many professional UCI tier 1 teams there are (not that many) and the average roster size of these teams compared to the number of recreational/competitive (is there even such thing as a 'recreational' roadie? :D) out there, you have to start wondering how easy is it really to reach the upper echelons of the sport. I don't like the genetic argument too much either, but running competitively in track and field for the past few years changes my views somewhat :)

Genetics has a fair amount to do with it. The ability to process lactic acid, lung capacity, muscle type(fast/slow twitch), how big or small you are(If you are sixfive and weigh two hundred pounds or fivetwo and weigh 105) are all genetic controlled qualitys.
I tried MTB racing in my twenties, two hundred mile weeks, no alcohol, watched what I ate, but I still couldn't keep up with the experts. Not enough fast twitch muscle. I can however, with almost no base mileage go out and ride 80 miles(road) at 17mph, lots of slow twitch fiber, I should be a randoneur, but the idea of riding 800 miles while only stopping to pee is not to appealing.

Originally posted by kewlrunningz
Could someone become a tdf winner if they were only average as far as genetics speak and are not endurance born freaks? If they have the drive and the will and train since their late teen years intensely everyday in a structured plan and when they move off to college, they train in the mountains and continue to suffer so that one day they might obtain that unobtainable goal, could they even though the only genetic advantage is 50 percent larger than average lungs. Even though they have to work harder than everyone else to make the same improvements do you think they could do it if they wanted it enough?

Hypothetically speaking that is...

Really... how much harder do you think you could work than those guys that are finishing 20th in the TDF?

I would say that it couldn't happen in this era... winning the TDF without really really suprime genetics.
I could go into big detail but to simplify it... think of examples... Jan Ullrich, Miguel Indurain, Lance armstrong... look at their physical 'stats'.

But having %50 larger lungs than the average person doesn't classify you as having 'average genetics' :p

I agree with Rev. Chuck. I have been riding over 25 years and there is a world of difference between a fast recreational rider and a pro. As much as I hate to say it, if you don't have the genetic makeup, you ain't going nowhere. No matter how much you train. I think there is only so much you can do to improve your aerobic capacity and lactate threshold. The rest is determined by genetics. Rather depressing, actually.

Steve "both aerobically and LTHR challenged" E.

As with all great athletes, possession of both characteristics is necessary. You must have the genetic makeup and you must be willing to work & persevere.

Having said that, genetics is the more important. You can work as hard as possible, but if your body doesn't have the ability, it just won't happen.

Horses for courses... literally. It's why the mountain climbers excel in the mountains, while the sprinters have a huge battle just making the time cut.

I think the other genetic factor, though, is indeed the brain. In the current TdF, Armstrong has shown he has the thought processes to keep himself in a winning position. Hamilton has shown a different thought process -- to shut out the pain. Some may argue environment is the main influence on our brains, but there are some emotional and intuitive characteristics we are born with that just won't change.

RevChuck, give randonnees a go. I don't think there are many who would ride anything over 400km without stopping for sleep, feeding and rehydrating. The challenge is keeping mind and body together and winning against one's own doubts. Overcoming the challenges has an interesting influence on how you might see the rest of life.

R

It's all in the mind, no matter how much genetics matter. Your mind and body is connected. You can change the way you think, you have somehow changed your 'genetics'. Never doubt yourself, the negative thoughts is enough to delay recovery. Always think positive.

At the level of TdF riders, genetics make the difference. All riders have the potential to train, and the ambition to win @ the same level. However, you can do nothing about a genetic advantage.

In other words, all other things being equal, genetics easliy tip the scale.

Of course genetics matter. I would never have been successful in the NBA, for example.

The key to human achievement begins with understanding one's own nature. I do bellieve everyone has the potential to excel, to achieve greatness, to surpass all expectations -- but not at the same things.

That would be boring.

It's rare enough when someone identifies what they're predisposed for, decides they'd really like to do that, and finds they way clear to achieve everything possible in that field. That's how we get great musicians, great writers, great athletes, great scientists.

To suggest that anyone who works hard enough could be a world-class road racer ignores variations in physiology that are undeniable. Could a 6'10" 275lb rider win in the TdF? Probably not. Might be an awesome downhiller, though.

RichC

I should be a randoneur, but the idea of riding 800 miles while only stopping to pee is not to appealing.

Stop to pee? Then what is all this talk about "wicking" for then?

:D

With that out of the way for the morning, I think that genetics plays a part, but only goes so far. Then the will, drive, and determination has to kick in to hone the edge.

Genetics is an enormous factor in something like the TdF. Look at the time trials for instance. We're talking about a sporting event in which the participants are so elite that they can ride for anywhere from 10 to 60km and post times that are only tenths or hundredths of seconds apart. I think an 'average' person would have a much better shot at winning the superbowl than the TdF. Considering that only about 200 riders are on teams that are selected for the Tour, AND this pool includes the entire globe, AND not every team member is selected to ride the Tour, AND your body must be capable of expending 5000-6000 calories every day for a month AND process 6000-8000 calories of food and drink every day....well, I think that gets the idea across. The 'average' person might be able to work hard enough to make the Saturn team if they were extremely dedicated, but that is a long way from winning a 23-day race through two mountain ranges over 2000+ miles against the most elite cyclists in the world. Some people are made for this kind of thing and some are not.

Ok, I'm sorry to get heated about this but I've had people telling me all my life that I'm to tall, not stong enought or have allergies. The "average" person next to lance or any one of the top 20 TdF riders would not stand a chance, but the average person has not been riding for that many years. I classify average (guy) is a person 5'8" to 5'10 in good shape, and thats not too much diffrent from any rider in the TdF. Also, there is not going to be anyone over 6'2" in the TdF, I'm sorry, but we are too big, as i remember, anything over 5'10" is above average. I do agree that i dont think any "average" can just go out and win the TdF, but they can compete in it. You do need to be in top shape, and genitics can tip the scales, which means you need to be able to do something that the other riders can't, like being a great hill climber, or sprinter.

I do have one intresting question, how do people know if they can go pro? I mean do they just know?

-Ross
PS: sorry if I'm rather opinionated, i hope i didnt offend anyone.

Originally posted by spazegun2213

I do have one intresting question, how do people know if they can go pro? I mean do they just know?


They dominate at the amateur level.

RichC

Wow, that is quite a question. If you are looking for encouragement to try to go Pro or not, I would recommend talking to (and possibly working with) a pro cycling coach. No one has the foresight to know if it is for them to win a Tour. However with that being said, training, conditioning and working w/ a coach are necessary to get yourself into a position to aspire that goal. Lance did not come out of his mothers womb w/ the physical ability to win the TdF. His tremendous work ethic put him in that position.

Keep cranking and see where the road takes you

If you are looking for encouragement to try to go Pro or not, I would recommend talking to (and possibly working with) a pro cycling coach.

Me? Pro? if by Pro your meaning "PROgrammer" then yes, thats what I'm going to do. AS for Pro cycling, no... not happening, it would be cool, but it would also destroy my love of the sport.

I dont know any people that went pro in anything, so I'm wondering how they knew.

-Ross

Originally posted by 2Boxers
Lance did not come out of his mothers womb w/ the physical ability to win the TdF.

Actually, he did.

He has a very high VO2max higher than most other athletes
let alone average joes.
He also has an extremely high tolerance for Lactic acid,
where you and I would be screaming in pain, he just keeps
riding.
Both of these statements are paraphrases from Its Not About
The Bike

Of course his work ethic helps tremendously but there is
a large genetic predisposition going on here.

Marty

In conclusion, Lance is a machine :D

I wish I'd saved an article I saw a few months ago. I can't remember which magazine it was in. The gist of it was that, we would not even know who Lance Armstrong is, if it were not for his coach. His coach has taught him "how" to win. I found the article believable. I think the article also involved the comdien Robin Williams riding along with Lance and his coach. There is a definite mental edge in athletics. But, I haven't seen Lance totally dominating this year's race. He could have easily been eliminated during his "cyclocross" experience as he described it. Maybe his reign is coming to an end. As far as genetics being involved, that's a no-brainer. How about a Mike Tyson in his prime, or Pele', or Dimaggio. These guys were born with it, man! Jump in a time machine and ask Albert Einstein. He'll tell you. ;)

Screaming in pain? Does lactic acid really cause such pains? Even though many a times I have worked hard, I don't find the lactic acid building up enough to cause pains or anything. I only feel the lactic acid present, but not enough to cause me to stop or scream.

Originally posted by oxologic
Screaming in pain? Does lactic acid really cause such pains? Even though many a times I have worked hard, I don't find the lactic acid building up enough to cause pains or anything. I only feel the lactic acid present, but not enough to cause me to stop or scream.

you must have a high tolerance to lactic too...

Try sprinting in a 10 deg incline for 20-30 minutes @ 45-50kmh... You'll know when you get to the limit....

Originally posted by 2Boxers
Lance did not come out of his mothers womb w/ the physical ability to win the TdF.

Yes, he did.
I don't think that training can cause your heart to increase to 3 times its original size ;)

Originally posted by brent_dube
Yes, he did.
I don't think that training can cause your heart to increase to 3 times its original size ;)

Rigorous training like he does WILL increase the size and efficiency of the heart muscle. I don't know about the 3x part, but it will get bigger just like every other muscle. Just so long as you don't over-do it.

I have also read that LA has a longer than average thigh, which allows him greater pedal power output. True?

Try this article out from cycling performance tips...
http://www.cptips.com/trnvgen.htm

So let's say I can run 3 miles in 19 minutes with no training as far as running goes, only minimal cycling of 30 mile 4 times a week. My lungs are 50% larger than normal, and I am willing to bust my arse every day in order to make something out of this. Do you think I have even the slightest genetic advantage and could go pro if I tried hard enough? What about the mind over matter stuff... and you can do anything you set your mind too? This is kinda depressing. :rolleyes:

kewlrunningz

I almost agree with Ross'' first post - go for it! Work hard enough and you will make pro. Will you win the TdF HTHSIK but you will win your share of stuff. Go for it! -;)

Joe

Originally posted by kewlrunningz
What about the mind over matter stuff... and you can do anything you set your mind too? This is kinda depressing. :rolleyes:

What is depressing?
I can't win the TDF. Oh well.

If anyone could win the tour by 'working hard enough'... then I could win the tour.

I would not get depressed about not being able to win the Tour. There are thousands of people having a great time competing in crits, road races, mountian biking, triathalon at a local level.(Turns out that while I am not a great racer I am pretty good at BikeTrials, so I do that).
You might be a great crit racer and there are LOTS of those in the US, you can even make good spending money doing it.

I think some of the best "genetic" athletes haven't excelled in any sports because they play many sports instead of committing their lives to just one sport. Just a thought.

...more like dissapointed that not anyone can win it. I'm not too concerned with the whole winning the tdf thing I just want to go somewhere with this more than on just a local level. Mind over matter....mind over matter......I guess "technically" it's possible to make it since I don't exactly know that I'm some genetic reject nor do we know what the human body and MIND are capable of yet.

Here it is, if I train hard enough and am dedicated enough, I can win in any atheletic event. Well, I believe that that is nonsense.

I think mainly neophytes think this way. When you first start cycling, you get big performance gains with relatively little training. However, as you train more and more, your performance gains become smaller and smaller. In other words, you start hitting a limit.

Do you think that Lance Armstrong won the Tour de France because he is the hardest working, most dedicated cyclist in the world? Sure he works very hard. But there are any number of cyclists who put in as many hours. What they don't have that Lance has is the talent.

Now cycling is pretty neat. A person of just normal ability can train and get to the point that they can crank out centuries with aplomb. A fit recreational cyclist can do things that seem impossible to none cyclists. That is pretty neat isn't it?

I am a fast recreational cyclist. I do a lot of riding. And when I was at my fittest, I could hang with the local racers. But a CAT 2 rider could drop me like a hot potato (or course, having virtually no fast twitch muscle fibers does not help my sprint at all). I do have very good aerobic power.

Thing is you don't compete at the top level even in most states without having a fair degree of talent. Being ordinary and training hard just is not enough. See everyone at this level trains hard and talent makes most of the difference. Any rider in the Tour de France is not really a normal human being. He is a cycling machine. And the top riders are even more so and then you get those guys who come along once every great while who are just amazing like Indurain, Meryx and Armstrong.

Would anyone really ask this question about weight lifting or basket ball? In weight lifting, you just can't do it unless you have a high percentage of fast twitch muscle fiber and you can put on a bunch of muscle. In basket ball, you will not make the NBA if you a 5' tall no matter how talented you are. And height is largely genetic. The talent needed in cycling at the top level just is not as visually obvious as the previous two, but the talent is vital.