Road Cycling - tubed or tubelees??

I was thinking of a set of wheels for my 2001 Specialized Allez Sport. Should I go with the reliable tubed tires? or switch over and use the tubeless tires?

I kinda checked it out with my local bike store, but they didn't know too much about them. With the tubeless system, you have to get the "set" which is rims and tires, cause they require special rims that are attached to the rims. Now when I think of that... I think that there is no margin for repair, but to just replace the "set." Are the tires more durable than tubed tires?

Another topic I don't know too much about is the number of spokes I should have on each wheel. This would concern me if I need to get tubed tires. I've seen sets that there are more spokes in the rear rim than there are in the front. I'm guessing that's for support? I would get these wheel sets for racing/street riding, so I don't need anything super light, but the lighter the better. Oh, I see that people would say there weight when picking our wheel sets. I'm 220lbs. I know I'm a little heavy for a road bike..... I'm working on it....:( So, how many spokes should I be looking at? what happens if I use rims with less/more spokes than suggested??

Thanks guys!!

-Dan the Man-

My understanding is that tubeless is only available for ATB sized tires. I also gather you are in deep s...t if you flat and don't carry a tube for replacement. The tires are very difficult to reinflate without a high volume air supply, one that runs off 110vac and makes a lot of noise. Clydesdales, standard or junior size should stick to 32 or 36 spoke rims. These are more forgiving of heavy weight riders. The rear wheel is subject to much greater loads than the front hence the possibility of fewer spokes in the front. The front wheel is essentially torque free compared with the rear wheel, say when you stand up and jump hard, hence the rarity of radial spoking on rear wheels. At 220# you really don't want to go light on the wheels, but you are nowhere near the weight limits on road bikes. Tubeless tires have same durability as tubed but cuts on the carcass mandate use of a tube henceforth. If you don't mind splitting a set you could probably get by with 12-20 spoked front wheel but stick to 32 or 36 for the rear. Steve

Originally posted by sch
My understanding is that tubeless is only available for ATB sized tires.

Maybe the original poster meant clinchers vs. tubulars?

I have never seen anybody make a tubeless tire for a road bike. Some mountain bikes have them for extremely low pressure uses, but this wouldn't make sense on a road bike.

Basicaly tubless on a road bike would be using Tubulars, and from your descriptions sounds like that is what you are looking at. Tubulars give you a better ride, but at the expense it takes more time to mount a tire, glueing it etc. . and you have to carry a spare tire where you go. I would not suggest it for riding the streets, tufo makes a clincher-tubular tire you can look at if you want. Clinchers you can just carry a spare tube and a patch kit and never be stranded.

I am not familiar with these "tubulars' or "clinchers".... can you explain what they are?

So to make a long story short, no tubeless for road bikes. Go with the standard tubed tires (tire and tube and normal rim).

-Dan the Man-

Originally posted by ockey53
I am not familiar with these "tubulars' or "clinchers".... can you explain what they are?

http://www.garynuke.homestead.com/tubular.html

TUFO makes a tubeless clincher for road bikes. There have been several threads about them. I've ordered a pair.

Some of the comments read here on BF were that the tires are very hard to mount. I talked to The Man at Tufo and he said they need to be stretched first, and then they mount like any other tire. I'll find out about that soon.

They ain't cheap. But what good tire is?

At least you don't have to buy tubular rims and mess with all that glue or sticky tape.

Originally posted by ljbike
TUFO makes a tubeless clincher for road bikes. There have been several threads about them. I've ordered a pair.

But they'd still be a pain for everyday use wouldn't they? However, I guess it would save one from having to buy two different wheelsets. But you don't get the advantages of a lighter wheel. I imagine that it'd be just as heavy if not slightly heavier than a clincher setup.

Khuon, they have some for racing, and for the velodrome and some for everyday.

Originally posted by ljbike
Khuon, they have some for racing, and for the velodrome and some for everyday.

Hmmm... interesting. I've honestly never ridden tubulars because I don't race and have heard of all the hassles involved with them. I might have to give them a try if the "entry-fee"/investment isn't too high. I'd like to see if they will drastically increase performance. I'd still be hesitant to use them for everyday riding since flats/punctures would really suck. How well do these things fold? When folded do they store to abouth the same size as a regular innertube? I have no problems carrying a spare innertube but I don't want to look like one of those riders in the old TdF pictures wearing tires bandolier style across their chests.

TO BE or not TO BE........ummmmm.....

Originally posted by khuon
http://www.garynuke.homestead.com/tubular.html

Thank you very much khuon, that explained alot!!

So tubulars are out of the question!!

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Now it's down to clinchers or regular tubes and tires?

Clinchers Regular Tires
- more expensive - less expensive
- lighter - heavier
- tubeless - easy to fix/maintain/replace
- less resistance - very common, found everywhere
- portable (in Kevlar) - no special rim sets
- very portable

I need to find some better advantages than just lighter. How much of a price difference is it for the wheel set of clinchers and a wheel set of regular tires (average prices)??

Thanks guys and girls!!

-Dan the Man-

ockey53,

For what you are describing I would agree you don't need
tubulars (not at this stage of the game, later we'll see!).
Look into Continental, and Vittoria tires.
what kind of wheels/tires are currently on the allez ?

Khuon,
You need to try tubulars. the ride is worth the hassle
(and the hassle isn't really that bad). and If you're really
concerned with messing up, most LBSs will mount tubulars
for minimal fee (my LBS charges $10).

ljbike
Use old rims to stretch the Tufo's. I have a few pair of old
rims (some without holes) I used to stretch tires.

Marty

Originally posted by lotek
ockey53,

For what you are describing I would agree you don't need
tubulars (not at this stage of the game, later we'll see!).
Look into Continental, and Vittoria tires.
what kind of wheels/tires are currently on the allez ?

Hey lotek, I'm building it from the frame up. I have another post going (building a 2001 Specialized Allez Sport (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32801) ). I have no wheels currently. I'm might be looking into clinchers. I weigh 220lbs. and I like to ride with "rock-hard" tires for optimal speed.

-Dan the Man-

Originally posted by ockey53
Now it's down to clinchers or regular tubes and tires?

Hmmm... I think you're still a little confused. For road bikes you have two choices really: tubulars or clinchers. Clinchers are regular tubes and tyres.

Originally posted by lotek
You need to try tubulars. the ride is worth the hassle
(and the hassle isn't really that bad). and If you're really
concerned with messing up, most LBSs will mount tubulars
for minimal fee (my LBS charges $10).

I guess I'm more concerned about flatting during a ride. I might give tubulars a try at the local velodrome though.

Originally posted by khuon
Hmmm... I think you're still a little confused. For road bikes you have two choices really: tubulars or clinchers. Clinchers are regular tubes and tyres.

So are you saying that it's not like MTB wheels, where there is a tire, tube and rim?? so a clincher is a "normal" wheel? So you can't buy a tire, tube and rim for road bikes?

-Dan the Man-

Originally posted by ockey53
So are you saying that it's not like MTB wheels, where there is a tire, tube and rim?? so a clincher is a "normal" wheel? So you can't buy a tire, tube and rim for road bikes?

A "normal" wheel for road bikes is referred to as a clincher wheel. It is composed of a rim with lips for the tyre bead, the tyre with wire or kevlar beads and an innertube.

Originally posted by khuon
A "normal" wheel for road bikes is referred to as a clincher wheel. It is composed of a rim with lips for the tyre bead, the tyre with wire or kevlar beads and an innertube.

But the innertube is part of the tire itself, described as a tubeless tire cause there's no tube you need to insert into the tire, correct?

-Dan the Man-

Originally posted by ockey53
But the innertube is part of the tire itself, described as a tubeless tire cause there's no tube you need to insert into the tire, correct?

There are no real tubeless tyres for roadbikes that I know of. The tubular (or sew-up) tyre has the innertube sewn in with the tyre and is mounted as a single unit onto the rim... with glue.

The clincher tyre requires an innertube to be inserted but is not permanently attached to the tyre itself. Clinchers have a bead and are held onto the rim by the force of the pressure from the innertube locking the bead against the inner lip of the rim.

Tubeless tyres as those found on some mountain bikes do not use an innertube at all. The rim and the beadlock is airtight much like the tyres on a car.

Ockey I think you are a bit confused on this.

Clinchers = Standard Tires and tubes same as regular MTB tires, uses standard road rims.

Tubulars = Similar to MTB tubeless except the tire is glued to the rim (bit oversimplified, but gets you the basic idea).. Tubulars require special tubular rims

Ok, I think I got it. "Normal" tires are clinchers. I saw the pictures of the clinchers and it looked like the tube was incorporated with the tread, but I guess not. So clinchers are a set that requires a rim, tube and tread. Got it! Finially.... :rolleyes:

I was looking above in this thread that Kevlar bead treads can bend and fold without breaking. Great!

Random question... do they made Kevlar treads?? I know that only the bead is kevlar... Just wondering.

How is pressure concerns? Like I said, I like my tires "rock-hard" to get the optimal speed and to literally feel the road. I don't mind a couple bumps, I mean I ride a MTB... hehe.

-Dan the Man-

You can get tires rated for 150psi of pressure --and higher-- but 120psi for street use may be as hard as you want to go.Of course, the higher the pressure rating, the higher the cost.

Tufo, the tires I mentioned earlier, have tires that will handle 220psi, They'll run you about $80. each.

I mean I don't need anything hardcore like 220psi, lol. I mean I think just any tire will handle the pressure I need.

My question was in the design of the clincher. It seems that if there is too much pressure, that the tread could slip out of the bead groove.... creating a BIG problem. The amount of pressure I'mt alknig about is just the pressure you can get out of a hand pump. Has anyone seen or heard of this problem... or am I just crazy?

-Dan the Man-

Originally posted by ockey53
My question was in the design of the clincher. It seems that if there is too much pressure, that the tread could slip out of the bead groove.... creating a BIG problem. The amount of pressure I'mt alknig about is just the pressure you can get out of a hand pump. Has anyone seen or heard of this problem... or am I just crazy?

I suppose it's possible to roll the tyre (even under pressure) enough to pop the bead. It's extremely difficult to do. If it did happen, I'd probably attribute it to user-error upon installation or manufacturing defect of the rim or tyre rather than any inherent design flaw. I guess extremely high cornering loads might roll the tyre off too. Some people were speculating that this might have happened with Beloki's recent crash in stage 9 of the TdF and there was a question of whether he was running tubulars or clinchers.

I haven't heard many instances of bead poppings on properly installed and inflated tyres but then again I don't claim to be following very closely either.

Ok, I can deal with that. I'm not going to be doing anything out of the ordinary to try in create that problem.... I think I will be fine...

Now I gotta look for a set of rims and treads. I believe that the LBS's prices are very high.... and I usualy buy things off of www.ebay.com or somewhere online. There is always some place that is cheaper than the next for the same item.

Any suggestions for a nice set of rims (semi-light, not racing light, but light)?

Another question of the number of spokes...? I weigh 220lbs. and in a previous post, someone said 32-36....

-Dan the Man-

Originally posted by ockey53
Now I gotta look for a set of rims and treads. I believe that the LBS's prices are very high.... and I usualy buy things off of www.ebay.com or somewhere online. There is always some place that is cheaper than the next for the same item.

Any suggestions for a nice set of rims (semi-light, not racing light, but light)?

Well, there's always your standard discount online places like Nashbar amd Performance. Just remember to make sure the spokes are properly tensioned and stress-relieved. also remember that if you buy a new set of wheels online and need to have them instantly trued or stress-relieved/tensioned/whatever and you take it to an LBS, they may frown upon it.


Originally posted by ockey53
Another question of the number of spokes...? I weigh 220lbs. and in a previous post, someone said 32-36....


You may be able to get away with lower spoke counts in the front but not too low. It also depends on the type of spokes and the the cross-pattern. I think 32-36 is a safe bet.

Would it be worth it to buy the hub and the spokes and the rim... or just a complete rim? Like I said, I'm not doing this for performance, but I am for looks ;)

-Dan the Man-

Originally posted by ockey53
Would it be worth it to buy the hub and the spokes and the rim... or just a complete rim? Like I said, I'm not doing this for performance, but I am for looks ;)

If you're adept at building wheels and have the equipment then I would say go ahead and buy the parts individually. If you're like me, I would go through a wheelbuilder/LBS or buy factory assembled wheelsets.

I have seen quite a few recomendations for the lower end Shimano wheels for clydesdale riders. They are low spoke wheels but seem to be able to take alot more abuse them alot of wheels. I agree with the higher pressure, just feels better to me personaly. The Vredestein Fortezza is not a extremely expensive tire and can go up to 140psi.

Originally posted by Kev
I have seen quite a few recomendations for the lower end Shimano wheels for clydesdale riders. The Vredestein Fortezza is not a extremely expensive tire and can go up to 140psi.

What model Shimano rims? I almost want to get all my components on my bike to be fully Shimano, just cause they are good quality and are great for the price. Shimano.... huh.... I'll look around. eBay, here I come!

-Dan the Man-

Actualy Shimano Wheels not rims.. The R540 they look really kewl to :)

Originally posted by Kev
Actualy Shimano Wheels not rims.. The R540 they look really kewl to :)

Are you saying they come as a wheel set... with rim, tube and tire? Can I buy just the rim?

-Dan the Man-

Originally posted by ockey53
Are you saying they come as a wheel set... with rim, tube and tire? Can I buy just the rim?

Wheelsets are generally regarded as prebuilt wheel/spoke/hub/skewer combinations and most of the time come in pairs. This means that when you buy a wheelset, you don't need to spend the time or have someone lace the wheels to the hubs. All you have to do is install an innertube and mount the tyre... relatively easy in contrast to actually building a wheel from a pile of spokes, bare rims and hubs. If you buy just the rim, that's all you get... a metal hoop. You would still need to purchase a hub for it along with some spokes. Then you would need to lace the spokes to the hub and rim. This can be a tricky art to master. I for one had enough of a hard time truing an already built wheel nevermind building one up from parts so I choose to let (read: pay) others to do it for me.

Hey, If you look at my other thread (Building a 2001 Speciallez Allez Sport (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32801&perpage=15&pagenumber=2)) I listed all the parts I want for my bike. I am getting a wheelset and not going to bother with lacing spokees or anything like that.

I saw the instrument that my LBS uses to true a wheel. Is there an "amateur" way to do it without that equipment??

-Dan the Man-

A very basic way of trueing a wheel is to use your brakes, lift your bike off the ground with a stand or whatever spin the front/back wheel and watch the tire and see if it gets closer or farther away from the brake pads.

Originally posted by Kev
A very basic way of trueing a wheel is to use your brakes, lift your bike off the ground with a stand or whatever spin the front/back wheel and watch the tire and see if it gets closer or farther away from the brake pads.

Yeah that's a way of doing it..... but how do you know that the brakes are parallel and where they are suppost to be?? Like with the LBS instrument, they have the hub holder and then have to metal strips that come down from the hub and "point" to the rim. You can move those "pointers" closer and closer to the rim to true it.

My point is that how do you make sure that your brakes are inline and where they are suppost to be?

Trueing is fixing the problem, if you're looking at the tread, and the rim moves side to side, right?
Aligning is if you're looking at the spokes from the side, and the rim moves up and down, right?

or did I mix those up??

-Dan the Man-

Trueing is fixing a wheel that wobbles side to side or up and down I believe..

Basicaly you use you're brake pads instead of pointers.. If you're brakes are off does it really matter you are judginst the wobble from the standard path of the rim... left or right. This is not as accurate as using a trueing stand but can do the job fairly well. Or you can buy a trueing stand they range from $50-$300.

Ok, now that I know that I can use my brakes as a guide... how do you correct a wobble to the right, let's say you are standing in the rear of the bike with the bike on it's seat.

Do you tighten or loosen the spokes? Do you move the hub?

-Dan the Man-

Check these directions out at parktools web site
http://www.parktool.com/repair_help/howfix_truing.shtml

Here is a article by sheldon brown on wheelbuilding, not exactly wheel trueing but is good to read to learn more about how a wheel is built and trued.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

Sweet, thanks!

-Dan the Man-